Discouraging verbal interaction this morning. Then again, progress is not all in one direction. Keep eyes on big picture.

Shabbat Shalom, Hold and Mrs Hold and family!

Thanks Mark. Big religious weekend. Saturday is Bnai Mitzvah for twin kids of my wife's good friend from college. Sunday is our synagogue's Annual Meeting at which I, as Men's Club head, provide breakfast.

Then off to watch the US national lacrosse team play a group of college all-stars Sunday afternoon literally right down the street from us. S15 just started playing lacrosse this year so it works out nice that the national team is playing nearby just as the season has ended. Only $5 per ticket! On top of the US national soccer team playing a world cup warmup match 2 weeks ago (another sport S15 took up this year) about 40 minutes away, lots of high level events for us to go see despite living here in the woods!

Wishing everyone the best for the weekend.

We're still watching hockey in Chitown...

Ah yes, go Hawks! Decades ago my uncle's PR company represented Stan Mikita. Went to some games at the old stadium. Who says it is better without poles blocking the view?

Hold,

There was a program on the radio last week and they were discussing the Stadium versus the UC. People always talk about how loud things were in the Stadium, but according to empirical data, via sound pressure meters spread around the UC during the second round of the playoffs, the UC is actually louder than the old stadium.

Either one was a pretty cool place to watch hockey though the UC is much better for B'ball.

The Allstate Arena (Rosemont, IL) is a pretty cool venue for hockey. That is where the Wolves play home games (AHL). Also home of the Chicago Rush (Arena Football League) and the Sky (WNBA).

I attended a lot of concerts at the old Chicago Stadium. The last one was Grand Funk Railroad (later just Grand Funk) and the plaster was literally falling from the walls and ceiling from the level of the bass pounding away.

Folks around here almost forgot we even had a hockey team in the NHL. Games weren't even on TV for about 30 years. Now folks are painting their houses red and black and I saw several golf carts this morning with Indian heads on the fenders.

Watching the Hawks win is certainly a lot more fun than watching the Cubs, Sox, Bears and Bulls lose... This from Walter Jacobson, local TV news legend who admits to knowing nothing at all about hockey till about a month ago.

I would question the pressure readings from the old stadium. It was so much smaller, I can't imagine that roughly the same number of people didn't make a louder noise in such a more enclosed space. But I am no engineer.

Also, I can more easily imagine that the sound on he playing floor is louder in the UC (nothing blocks sound from reflecting off the roof back to the floor, and maybe even the round shape reflects more sound back toward the court / rink), but I would imagine in the upper deck of seats it was louder back when the overhang was 6 inches above your head!

Weekend was chock full of events, fun but tiring.

No relations between me and Mrs. Hold. She refused all Affection. The key is that life can be good even if things between me and Mrs. Hold are not what I wish they were.

where!?!?

So your quote is a hockey reference, Hold?



LA

Mrs. Hold still cringes most times when I reach for her for Affection. She may always do so. If she does, that puts an upper limit on how good our relationship will ever be for me. Serves me right for being a puppy who married a cat.

If I can do a better job of running the Men's Club, and have some additional male social activity, that should go a long way to ameliorating that pain. Getting old and not being as horny has made this significantly easier. I doubt we could have made any progress 10 years ago.

Not that we have really made any progress. She has not changed her behavior much. I have not learned much acceptance. I just can't summon the energy to complain as much.

We have a saying in alanon about finding contentment and even happiness whether the alcoholic is drinking or not. I personally like to apply this to life in general, because I find it so hopeful.

I can find happiness and contentment, regardless of what other people do or don't do. It is mine to find, not someone else's to give.

And having this shift in attitude has gone a long way to helping me become a more pleasant human being to be around. More attractive, too, or so I'm told.

In this case, I too am the alcoholic who is still drinking. Hard to make progress while you are not yet sober. I guess the analogy is that now that I am older I can't drink as much before I pass out. So I am drinking less. We still don't drink the same amount. But the difference has gone down.

Keep eyes on prize. Sex may be pointless (she claims to feel nothing) and never resolved, but she gave me a hug this morning. So did D13. Things could be much worse.

This morning we had what is for us a very long conversation about sex. Maybe 3 or 4 minutes.

Started by snuggling. I got up to go eat breakfast. As I rose, she thought I was moving in for sex and she threw up her arms to ward me off. I told her not to worry, I have no intention about having sex until we deal with her revelation. She followed me into the kitchen.

She spoke bitterly that she was sorry she admitted it. I said I was honored that she shared her truth with me. And I want to incorporate that truth into our relationship. And I am not yet sure how that works. And until we have a plan, I am not interested in having sex. We can still snuggle, with no risk that it will be "escalated" to sex.

She said she doesn't want to be microanalyzed. I said that is what I have been doing until now. Every movement and every moment during sex was, for me, carefully calculated in an attempt to find something that worked for her. From now on, I don't need to waste time and energy doing that. If nothing works for her, then I can ignore her reactions and just focus on me. She seemed dubious.

I said "for example, how about I pour chocolate sauce on you and lick it off. We previously rejected that because it doesn't do anything for you. But that rejection was based on the assumption that there was something else we could do instead that DOES do something for you. If nothing does anything for you, then maybe we should ressurect all the ideas I suggested in the past that got shot down because they don't turn you on. If they turn ME on, then maybe we should try them."

She still seemed dubious. I asked "what do you think about chocolate sauce?" She replied "I think you would like that."

There is still a cloud of doubt and negativity on her part. But I think this is worth trying. She apparently fears that it won't be successful. I agree, at least in part. At this point nothing we do is going to get us where I really want to go. Which is to have a responsive partner. But if we can't get there, maybe we can get somewhere that is better for both of us than where we are now.

Finding the truth is like gold. Whatever that truth is. Now you can work from there. There are 1000 ways to have sex. Even if at first, only one person enjoys it.

HOLD, I would start to research all about how to bring someone out of sexual stupor. Women need to "find out" what feels good and learn to eliminate the feelings that we are bad if we play with ourselves, etc. Pretend she is a virgin and does not yet know what she likes or what feels good.

Bubbles:

Thanks for the concern. I am not motivated to explore what will make it good for her. She doesn't want to be analyzed. I don't want to be rejected. A process of discovery requires 2 participants to be successful.

I am much more enthusiastic about making it explicit that sex is only for me. Something she does to "humor" me. Even if that means it will be very infrequent. To me, that reduces the performance anxiety for both of us. She doesn't have to pretend she feels something. I don't have to try and fail to please her.

Perhaps if we focus on me for a while, sex can become more fun and playful and less of a slog through a fog bound swamp on a cold rainy day. If it becomes fun and playful, maybe she will eventually be motivated to play too. At that point, I would be happy to indulge her in whatever game she wishes to play. Not that I expect her to feel any sensation even when she plays. But she might find some games more fun than others, even if none of them provide any stimulation.

For now, to the extent we have sex at all, I think it has to be about making it safe for her to have no reaction. Showing that I accept her even if she feels nothing and wants nothing for herself. That doesn't mean I will be pleased if we don't have any sex. But I will be graceful in accepting her consent without asking her to provide any particular response.

Note that my response above depends in large part on my continuing belief that all of her sexual issues stem from PTSD from the rapes. Hence I tend to reject suggestions aimed at helping her enjoy sex other than "she gets therapy to deal with the PTSD". I do not believe that there is ANYTHING we can do sexually that will enable her to enjoy sex unless and until she deals with her PTSD. I don't see her agreeing to do that while we remain married. So I don't see this problem ever being resolved. All of this talking is about me dealing with a chronic condition that will never be "cured". Posting here is how I deal with the fact that it is incurable.

Hold, I think you might be on to something. Take the pressure off of her and you are released from it as well.

As long as you are truly enthusiastic about this (as is she) and there is no hidden agenda, then you might as well try this approach, right?

I agree with OH. This is a brilliant way to deal with this situation.

My fear of rejection remains a huge impediment. Since she threw up her hands to ward me off, I have not made any move toward her. Not for sex. Not for snuggling. Not for anything in the bedroom (I have held my arms out for hugs outside the bedroom). And of course, she would rather die than reach out for me in the bedroom. So if I do not make a move and risk rejection, we don't touch.

Great theory - try and make sex more playful. But that requires us to have sex. Frequently enough that we can try several different things. And one failure is no big deal in the total scheme.

At this point, I am not motivated to attempt to have sex at all. I am too afraid of rejection and failure. So I'll just take care of myself. And seethe inside. At me for being such a scaredy cat. And at her for not making things easier for me by giving me clear "go" signals.

I wish we could talk about this. Plan out what we should try. When would be a good time. I may have to make a move just to get rejected so I can insist we talk about it. She seems more open to talking right after she rejects me. Of course, neither of us is in a calm respectful mood at that time. We do not implement the Policy of Safety. And everyone says not to talk about sex in bed. But if I ask her outside the bedroom at a time when sex is not on the agenda, she says she doesn't want to talk about it.

I will simply have to be less of a wimp and insist we talk about it. I hate not being a wimp almost as much as I hate being a wimp.