SOT

as far as meds, I will be honest, I would not be able to continue with my WS at if I were not on meds.

I forgot to take my AD's on Tuesday. All day tuesday I felt my mood declining. The night resulted in me allowing my anger and resentment to take over. And of course that meant a hwll of a lot of LBing. The horrible part was that I knew what I was doing, but I was so angry and in so much pain that at that point in time I did not care.

My meds help keep me on an even keel that is allowing me to move forward even though it suxs. I know that I am clinically depressed at this point, but for the sake of my M and my son, I have to keep moving forward. These are the tool that allow me to do that.

I agree, if you need some meds to calm yourself down during your Plan A, then do so. A lot of BS needs something for there emotions, and if you want an excellent plan A then meds might be the answer and help for your plan A.

My husband told me he was close on buying some, and he lasted almost 2 months! He told me what helped him was hugging his boys, and being with them, he said that gave him a lot of hope.

Its funny you mention the hugs. I was all about the hugs yesterday. I stoped by my parents house on the way home and got some hugs. Went home and WW gave me a really nice hug. Tucked DD7 in and got some snuggle time. It really did help. DD12 and DS13 don't really go for the hugs much anymore so they are harder to come by.

SOT, you are not kidding about our situations being very similar..uncanny. Even the 'toxic' and other wording......SPOT on.

Keep doing what you are doing....seems like we are in the same boat. I believe to stop doing anything that you were doing before that she did not like (controlling behavior, etc) to show that you really are changing. She won't believe it now, will say that she won't believe it..but unconsciously, she will see it. Again, I am not close to being out of this mess, but I have hope every day. Start reading...Joel Osteen helps me out. Every night before I go to bed...the Love Dare, helps me as well. Keep it up and I will be checking on you.

Thanks grip. I'm in a little bit of a catch 22 with the controlling behavior. I truely havae no desire to control her but I do want to do everything I can to break up the A. She sees this as contolling. Nothing I can do about that one. I'm also reading the love dare. I'm on day seven. It has been a little difficult to do with a partner who has no interest in staying together. I'll keep going though.

Boundaries and controlling are not the same.

I know this but she doesn't. One thing that I'm learning is that it doesn't matter what you intend, it is what is perceived by your spouse that matters. I doesn't seem this miscommunication can be fixed when the spouse is wayward. That makes it that much harder to Plan A. If I intend to set boundaries that are healthy and WW receives them as an LB, they are an LB. Right?

No, not right.

You are setting boundaries that protect you as a person. If WW receives them wrong that is her problem, not yours. You must not allow her to treat you badly.

If my father curses at me daily and I choose not to speak with him, and he becomes angry with me, does that make ignoring him wrong? No, because I refuse to be treated that way anymore. It is a boundary.

Karma - Right. I didn't mean that I wouldn't set boundaries. Just that those boundaries are causing withdraws from WW and so be it. I think my point is that even though I am protecting myself, it isn't helping on the Plan A front because she is twisted right now. Does that make sense?

Yes, it does. But you have to understand that WW is foggy right now and you MUST protect yourself from her.

Last night wasn't that great. I was trying to spend a little time with WW but she was reluctant. She went for a walk alone instead. When she returned I was snooping in her phone and found a text to OM saying that she really disliked me 'lol'. As I was reading it she walked in the room. I was caught snooping anyway so I confronted her about the text. I told her it was hurtful. She told me if i hadn't read it I wouldn't have been hurt. What kind of f'd up logic is that? I told her if something was wrong it was wrong regardless of if you get caught. She saw this as lecturing and trying to be her parent. I told her if she couldn't respect me, she needed to move out. I think I am falling into a plan C. I need to regain focus on my plan A. I dwell on every contact with OM. Should I resign myself to the fact that she is going to see and talk to him and just focus on the carrot? I think I am swinging the stick around so wildly that I am only hitting myself. I am inherently a fixer and this has been a real problem. I want to sit down and talk it out until it is resolved. Of course this doesn't work, so why can't I let it go?

This morning I was trying to lighten the mood a bit. WW had just got out of the shower and I told her how hot she looked with nothing on. I jokingly said I knew she missed SF with me because I had 'skeels'. I said we needed to work out some kind of friends with benifits arrangement. I thought she would laugh. Instead, she said I did have talents and she would think about it. She wasn't kidding. I was shocked. I just said ok. I don't know what to make of that. I can't figure it out either because after 4 months without, the SF is all i can think about. (jk) Maybe she and OM have not yet taken it to the PA level. I don't think she would even joke about it with me if they had. Of course, what the hell do I know?

I would say that you need to not hide that you know that she is contacting OM. You need to make it harder for her. You should have thought of something else to say when she caught you reading her text. You could have said that you were taking a picture of yourself with her phone or that you were writing her a note on there. Heck, you could have said you didn't know what time it was and needed to check her phone. You are supposed to expect her to contact OM. If she wasn't contacting OM, you wouldn't be in Plan A. Plan A is done during an ACTIVE affair.

I really CRINGED when I read your "friends with benefits" line. Really? Are you NOT MARRIED to HER? You are a MARRIED COUPLE. That is NOT friends with benefits.

The friends with benefits line comes from a conversation we had months ago before I knew about the EA that was going on then. WW told me she thinks of me only as a friend but we were still having SF. The point this morning was to suggest something that she would think was so rediculous that it would be funny. I do see your point, but she has said that she no longer sees us as married. It's only on paper. I see your point, I probably shouldn't play into her fantasy.

Tough situation, very close, but uncanny to mine. You can see her naked. I cannot. You can get hugs. I cannot get any. Mine is always angry when I am around. Mine is making up things I used to do and 'dwelling.' So similar, yet so different.

Yet, if we tell them they are 'textbook' in any way, they get offended and say that this is 'different.'

I feel for you, myself and all those who are trying to save their marriages in the midst of this fog. Keep strong...we are in the same boat. I am strong when she does things because, honestly, it is all expected these days....

Unfortunately, I don't learn about the 'next step' until she does it, but when she does, it is typical.

Well, what a horrible weekend. I need serious help. I am failing miserably at Plan A. I have done a pretty decent job of eliminating my AO's until this weekend. WW drew me in and I lost it. She knows what buttons to push and I failed. She wants me to revert to old behaviors so she can feel justified in what she is doing. I know that changes I am making are real but its difficult to stay focussed in the most impossible situation. Changing my behavior is a process and every setback I have feels like a huge loss of opportunity. Can someone help me improve my Plan A?

What are you doing for your plan A?

Can you give an example of things that your WW does that pushes your buttons. What LBs do you commit?

My counselor, Al Turtle has great advice...goes close to what the people on here say mostly. Here are his tips:

People frequently come to me with this problem. Some years ago I came up with an answer and have not felt the need to change it. It works. Follow the four steps.





1. GIVE UP ALL SIGNS OF PUSHING.

This is very important. Your partner is already moving away. Anything you do to push them will tend to make them move away faster and further. Stop anything that might be construed as pursuing or pressing them. If your instinct is to call them twice a day, start calling them once a week. If your instinct is to send them a gift, do it once a month. If you are trying to find out what they are doing by asking other people, don�t. Leave them alone a lot. Let your partner contact you when they are ready.

2. SURVIVE

Do not be surprised that you may feel awful, or sick, or depressed. This is normal when you feel left behind. The feeling will go away � with a lot of time. We all can live alone. It's not good for us, but we can. So, in the meantime, continue to live your life. Go to work. Eat well. Sleep well. Do more exercise. (It will help you sleep. It will help with any depression you may feel.) Be among friends. While you do this, you might consider staying away from friends of the other gender. If you cannot sleep or seem very depressed, see your doctor. Some medication may be helpful for a while. If your partner speaks to you, don�t tell them how hard a time you are having. That will probably not get you the sympathy you want. Just say something like, �Well, it is tough.� And say no more.

3. WORK ON YOUR SELF, VISIBLY

See a counselor. Read books. Talk your problems over with friends, your pastor, your priest, your rabbi. Learn what you can. Read my paper on Using Turtle Logic and The Two Walls. Chances are there is a lot for you to learn. Most often when a partner leaves, they have been planning it for a long time. You, on the other hand may have been taken by surprise. What led you to be so unaware of your partner? What lead you to be so unaware that they were in distress enough to consider leaving you? Try to not blame yourself. All relationship trouble takes two. And so, work on yourself.
And do this work so that your partner knows. The chances are one of the reasons they are leaving you is because they believe you will never change. By visibly working on yourself, they have to wonder what you are doing and who you are becoming. That is much better than their continuing to believe that you will never change.

When I say �visibly� I mean that you take opportunities to let them know that you are doing something. If they call, say you only have a little time as you have to get to your counseling appointment. Say, �By the way, I�ve been reading a book on marriage. It�s interesting.� Remember to follow Rule #1, and not say much.

4. BE AVAILABLE MINIMALLY WHEN YOUR PARTNER ASKS FOR CONTACT

It is reasonable that your partner will try to contact you. They may ask for a chat. Ask, �How long?� Agree to give them half that time. They may ask for dinner together. Agree to give them a short one. They may ask for you to spend the night. Stay only through the evening. Get used to this. Think that you are trying to get a deer to come out of the forest and eat from your hand. You have to earn (or in this case, re-earn) their trust and never lose it again.

Good luck.

I haven't posted much in the last couple of days because I am trying to regroup. I do need help with my plan A but first I am again focussing inward at what needs to be better about me and my actions. I have read through this site and read HNHN and SAA. I am trying to apply the MB principles but it is difficult with a partner who is unwilling to receive anything from me. The more I try to meet WW's needs the more she pulls away. So, grip's post above rang true. I have been reading through turtles website all day. The question is does anyone have an opinion about how these two things go together. Is there a conflict between what turtle is suggesting and MB principles. (eg. the wall of separation vs 15 hrs UA) Turtles article on reliable membership really described my situation. I am a clinging and my wife has run to the separation/ divorce line big time. Do any of these concepts even matter when your spouse is wayward? I can not stop this affair, I am trying to accept that. I have used the stick of plan A and to no avail. I think I will be served with papers this week so Plan B is right around the corner. How effective can plan B be if my plan A was weak. I have continued to withraw LU's by trying to break up the affair and by snooping. I have been panicked and clingy trying to hold on. I try to meet EN's and even this withdraws LU's because WW doesn't even want to be in my presence right now. I am seeing the end of my marriage as inevitable. WW told me she is going to stay at the neighbors house for two weeks starting thursday while she (the neighbor) is out of town. This is worse that having her in the house because I still can't Plan B (she will be at the house everyday, just not sleeping there). But I won't be able to limit her access (phone, online) to OM in any way. I would love some advice, especially from anyone whose been this far and actually recovered their marriage.

I just read this post on igrip's thread

"Those are some great posts, mmmherb, great posts.

I'm following your thread more closely because your WW is spewing the exact same flavor of fog babble that mine did.

The zeroing in on a few bad moments and disregarding the hundreds of good ones.

How controlling we are (and she makes all the major decisions?), how we "stifle" them, how they "cringe" whenever we are around. Heard it all, word for word.

How any change we make is "too little, too late", how their feelings for us now can never change, how there is no "chemistry".

Then there is the most loaded fog-statement of them all, "I don't know if I even want to try." Let me translate that one right now - means "I have no intention of putting an ounce of energy into trying, and will resist everything that you do."

My WW wasn't even that smitten by the OM. She is just addicted to the thought of being single and finding a little escape where she can.

mmmherb is right in that lots of time and NO CONTACT is your only hope. Even then, your wife is so withdrawn from the marriage and has been for so long that she may never come back.

Me, I could never achieve NC and then there overtures to an OM#2 and possibly more. It was then that I knew I couldn't win.

I'm praying you have a better outcome. Take care."

I have asked a couple of times if anyone has been this far down the road toward D. Heard the things that schoop and grip and I have heard and made it back to recovery. No one has replied which makes me think that it just doesn't happen. My WW's position is that I am just torturing myself because she will never change her mind. My reaction is to just mark this up to fog but is she right. I want to fight for my marriage but if its hopeless should I just mourn the death of this relationship and try to put myself back together again? Are there any real life sue and gregs out there?