Why don't you write up a proposal for sex?

Give her some ideas of a schedule for when you would like to have it... make it sort of contractual.

When things were at their worst with me and H, that is how we POJA'd affection--something he did not feel he could offer me at that time.

We literally came up with a list of things that were acceptable and things that were not. How often we expected them to happen, etc.

In your case, perhaps you could propose 2 x per week on such and such a days at such and such a time.

Just an idea.

At the same time, she HAS been more flirtatious with you sexually over the last few months, and has seemed to enjoy that at times.

Do you have to stop that? It seemed fun for both of you...

2x per week? On a regular basis? We hardly ever have sex 2x in one week. And there is always a multi-month hiatus after that "event". No, best we get to is 1x per week for 2 or 3 weeks. Then something happens to interrupt. And we fall away for weeks.

I would love to schedule our sessions. I would be thrilled to trade my abilit to initiate at any time for certainty that something will happen at the scheduled time. She adamantly refuses to schedule sex. In her mind, scheduling eliminates her veto power. Or creates additional guilt over saying no. She does not want any encumbrances on her turning me down. Understandable given her history. But makes a solution more difficult to achieve. Unlike some people with low libido, she does not view a schedule as freedom. She doesn't view it as removing pressure (because there is agreement there will be no sex at unscheduled times). She views it only as a restriction on her ability to exercise her veto. And her veto must be inviolate.

"It seemed fun for both of you."
Emphasis on "seemed". Remember, this was the 3 weeks immediately preceeding her pushing my hand away. Somehow, I doubt it was fun for her. After all, she mostly just lies there silent and unmoving. I have no idea how it is for her. And this last time, she stated she doesn't feel anything. So how am I supposed to conclude it was "fun" for her? And I got the "please let me sleep" pre-emption when I climbed into bed last night. So even if I had been in the mood to initiate, it was a no go.

I would love to discuss what might be fun for her. I am willing to explore this even though I believe the only honest answer would be "sex with someone else". I am willing to try pretty much whatever she asks for. Other than "you keep asking and I turn you down often but sometimes I say yes". I am willing to be her plaything. But not her punching bag.

I also think it's a good idea to give up on trying to microanalyze and find a way to make it good for her, but this caught my eye:

"After all, she mostly just lies there silent and unmoving."

A long time ago I read in some magazine of my sister's, that sex is really good if both participants are (to some extent at least) a little "selfish". Not that one person gets satisfaction at the other's expense, but that each person takes responsibility for their own satisfaction... takes the pressure off the other person. You don't have to guess at what the other person will like, they are guiding things in the way they like, and vice versa.

I like sex but I doubt I'd enjoy it much if I were just lying there silent and unmoving. When/if y'all are ever trying again to have her enjoy sex, she might want to take some initiative in doing things that will bring her pleasure. I'm not sure why it's all up to you. You've certainly put forth the effort. Not your fault if she's bound* and determined to not enjoy it.

*No pun intended!!! lol

Jayne, we have discussed that she should take more responsibility for her enjoyment. That she should explore what she likes. And communicate that to me. She refuses to embark on that journey. I think I understand why not.

This is where I believe her past experience restricts her. I think she is deathly afraid of enjoying sex. I think it terrifies her to imagine feeling pleasurable sensation. This would call into question her core identity.

If I enjoy it, will I be able to say no? If not, have I given too much power over to my husband? Can I tolerate him knowing how much I like it? How can I be sure I will retain the veto power if I can't resist the pleasant sensations? Will I be able to resist temptation if I allow myself to enjoy sex? I know there are men out there who have better bodies and are larger and last longer than my husband. How will I resist them once I give myself over to the pleasures of the flesh?

I think that these issues terrify her. To avoid dealing with them (and they are admittedly "big" issues), her mind refuses to "listen" to the signals coming from her body. I can't imagine what would motivate her to let those signals through and force herself to face her fears.

For example, my wife has admitted she does feel sensation and does enjoy sex when she is drunk or stoned. Leaving aside the legality, she steadfastly avoids becoming drunk or stoned. Why? Because she fears becoming an addict. She doesn't trust herself to be able to control her use, so she refrains from any use. I think she has the same fear about sex. If she allowed herself to enjoy it, she would do it all the time. Which would be bad (even with her husband), because it reflects a loss of control. And given her past experience, control is paramount.

So can you set aside ONE night a week where you get her drunk?

LOL

Seriously though. I know the caloric factor is an issue. What's the fastest way to get there with the least amount of calories. Can she plan for this the way she would if she had an event coming up, like a wedding or big party, where she (like most successful dieters, I assume)would "reserve" some calories for the day or two beforehand to make up for the indulgence during the event?

Is it theoretically possible? Yes. Will she consider actually doing it? No way. Why not? Because this would merely reinforce the problem with scheduling. She would be giving up even more control. Now, not only has she agreed in advance to have sex at a particular time whether she is in the mood or not, she has changed her eating habits to make "room" for alcohol. Now she is even more obliged to have sex at the scheduled time, not only to me, but to herself. Because otherwise she has denied herself calories / points "for nothing". It is not like she is going to say "well, I turned down the alcohol because I wanted to turn down the sex, so now I am going to have some cookies". That would make it only too clear how averse she is to sex with me.

What, you want her to be open and honest how she feels about sex? And about sex with me? No way. She fears my filing for divorce as much as I fear her doing so. Hence we live in this fantasy-land where she does not admit how much she hates sex with me and I don't admit how much I hate her continued rejection (not that I haven't told her this many times, but I don't remind her every time the feeling arises - which of course is every waking moment). Because if either of us admitted the truth, the other would be hard pressed to justify not divorcing. Which neither of us wants to do.

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate all the suggestions. I will suggest scheduling sessions so we can both relax in between. I will suggest she save points for alcohol on schedule days. I will ask her to suggest what works for her. And I will suggest ways for us to be playful and see if there are any she is enthusiastic about. If I am done trying, then I should be done complaining. So I guess I have to keep trying.

Thinking, thinking... ... ...

Ok, alcohol has calories, and pot is illegal plus is a gateway to more calories...

I can think of two ways of using Cool-Whip that don't involve consumption of calories on her part. One is for you to put the Cool-Whip on her, and you consume it. The other might generate similar lowered inhibitions as drinking or pot, if she inhales...

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to talk you out of your resolve to stop trying. These suggestions sound fun though, and maybe some day you can use them...

And just how would YOU know that, Miss Jayne?

back in the boat with you holding. W yet again pulled the wool over my eyes, back to the drawing board... at this point I'm ok satisfying myself into the forseeable future. M is a joke

Jayne, it is not that I have resolved to stop trying. It is that, as usual, my fear is interfering with my intentions.

As for the Cool-Whip, read back a few pages. My first suggestion in the "playful" category was for me to lick chocolate sauce off of her naked body. Her response "yes, I imagine YOU would enjoy that", said in a disdainful tone, did not auger well for POJAing that behavior. But I will make another Thoughtful Request and not DJ her by assuming a negative response. And yes, I am aware of the multiple uses to which a pressurized can of Reddi-Whip can be put.

I don't think the calories are the main issue. They are a convenient excuse. The main issue is not agreeing in advance. Which places constraint on her veto. She can still say no at the last minute. But she knows she would "owe" me if she did. And she hates the idea of "owing" me sex.

I can remember very early in our marriage. I would do something helpful. And she would resent me for it. Initially I was confused why she reacted that way. Eventually I realized that she hated the idea of giving me credit for anything I did for her. Because she feared if she gave me "chips", I might want to turn them in for sex. And she hated that idea. So she refused to give me "chips" in order to short-circuit what she feared I might do with them. I asked her about that. She thought I was probably correct. I don't remember if we had kids yet when we had that discussion. If not, I should have divorced her that afternoon. Would have saved both of us a boatload of pain.

Hold, in all of your analyzing I think you may not have considered fully what an absolute turn off it is for a woman like your W to know her H is CONSTANTLY wanting sex. She knows she falls short and on some level she knows it is her issues that are preventing both of you from having a sex life you like. I believe she is fully aware of your constant desire for sex and it is always in the air between you. There is never a moment where that unspoken need of yours is not part of your interactions with her.

I have not words of wisdom, you guys have serious problems regarding sex and other priorities in your marriage, but oh what a relief it would be for Mrs. H to know that you really and truly don't have sex first and foremost on your mind. Imagine being able to relax with her without having the tension of sex hanging there.

I know. Unfortunately: Never. Going. To. Happen.

I feel sorry for both of us. At times I think if I had more compassion I would divorce her. Because I can't see her ever meeting my need. And I can't see myself ever forgiving her if she doesn't.

No, I can't imagine being able to relax with her. The tension is always hanging there. I feel like an insecure teenager. Which in many ways, I have never stopped being. And which I know is an enormous turn off for her.

That is one reason I spend so much less time with her these days. The tension when we are together is too thick. I can hardly breath. Her too. She frequently tells me to back off because she needs air.

This is no way to live. Sorta like democracy. The worst choice. Except for all the alternatives.

I'm not Mrs. Hold and it sounds as though there are other issues, but if I were Mrs. Hold, and I decided to try to meet my husband's EN for SF, my biggest fear would be this...that he would constantly be after me for SF and if my desire were naturally quite a bit lower...even if 2x/week were ok for Mrs Hold, resentment would creep in for Hold and they'd be back to where they started.

Maybe that was a concern years ago. Lately I have backed waaaayyyyy off. I never initiate more than once a week. If events get in the way so we do not have a morning alone together without the kids, then I don't initiate at all. Mrs. Hold may have any number of fears, but it is not reasonable for her to fear that I would "push things" and ask for more sex than she has agreed to offer. Not that fears are rational.

On the other hand, nams point is well taken. It would be reasonable for Mrs. Hold to fear that the maximum frequency she can sustain would not be "enough", and the tension would still hang in the air between us. That is quite possible. While I suspect that even once a week would be "enough", and that the tension would dissipate once I got comfortable that sex would reliably occur, I cannot promise her that result because we have never been close to that. So I have no idea how I would feel after several months of regular sex. And the absence of certainty might prevent her from being enthusiastic about trying.

Ok, call this a wild and crazy idea then.

Can you put forth a 'deal' of sorts that has a time limit where at the end of such time, she has the opportunity to withdraw and/or renegotiate?

For instance: you agree to sex 1x/week. (or 2...). And you agree that you will have sex 1x/week for....4 weeks? 6 weeks? 8 weeks? whatever time frame you think is reasonable.

At the end of that time frame, if she still feels pressured, as in she thinks you are still judging her for not providing enough sex and that even a reliable 1 or 2/week will NOT be enough for you, then she can elect to go back to the status quo.

You could also throw in that she is not obligated to enjoy it..that it is for you, though if she felt the inclination to enjoy it, you would certainly welcome it.

You could call yourselves the great Holding experiment!

But the two of you would have to agree UP FRONT to be very, very honest in the evaluation. If you feel that enough tension has dissapaited that you are ok with 1 or 2/week then you tell her that. If you honestly feel you are still way deficient and not getting this need met, then she has the right to just go back to her corner.

Great idea. I will propose that. This is similar to what our MB-trained coach tried to get us to agree to years ago. Well, we did agree. Mrs. Hold never complied.

But this is a new decade and new year and new day. So maybe Mrs. Hold is more enthusiastic about such an agreement now. I will ask her.

YAY!

I hope Mrs. Hold agrees.

Present it very gently.

Hold, there has to be a living, breathing, loving person somewhere in there with Mrs. Hold. You have said many times that she is a wonderful mother..caring, great with the kids, etc. If she were truly shut down, she'd be a very emotionally distanced mother, too.

She is not shut down to them. She is shut down to me. She loves me. She fears intimacy more. We are very alike, she and I. We just fear different things.

I try to think of it as a scared child hiding in the corner. Helps me feel some compassion. Not enough to overcome my resentment. But some. Makes it worth continuing to try.

I'm sorry you're having difficulty, hold. It probably would be good in theory if the desire for SF wasn't always in the air. Just like it would be nice if after not eating for weeks the desire for food wasn't on your mind either. Not how it works.

Hold, I am not bashing anything about your W, I do not know her and she seems to have many good qualities. It's really more of a t/j. A general question to whomever.

Is there anyone out there who really honestly though sex WOULDN'T be a regular part of the equation in M? I'm not trying to be insensitive here, but if someone doesn't want to have regular sex....why did they marry? I mean, I know people have love, admiration, companionship, etc. But honestly, I could hug a best friend. I could have deep talks with a sister. If someone doesn't want to actively share a bed with someone, and they know that that someone DOES want to actively share a bed....why did they marry that person? All this I hear about "my spouse just won't keep their hands off me" or "I tried not to wake spouse up when I came to bed so they wouldn't ask for that". Why in the name of heaven do people who don't want to have sex get married? That's like me applying for, interviewing for, and accepting a teaching job and then telling the principal I don't want to go to school.