Yesterday started bad and ended up good. Mrs. Hold was much of the good part. And no we did not have sex.

S15's team had a basketball game. Why they scheduled an all-day event on Father's Day is beyond me. Anyway, alarm rings at 6:45, we are at the gym at 7:45 for an 8:00 game. Which took place at 11:30. We won. Done at 12:30. I ask when the next game is, and do I have time to take some of the boys (I drove 3 of them to the game) for lunch? Coach says there are 2 games before we play again so yes I have time for lunch. Get lunch. Get back. Is not the same game that was starting when we left, so I figure this is game 2 and we are next. Excellent. As that game is winding down, I turn to kids and say "better get ready, you are next". Coach says to me "I am not sure, I think someone else is next." I ask when our game starts. Coach doesn't know. Other Dads don't know. We go to tournament director (who is associated with the organization that sponsors S15's team, so we know him) to ask when we play. He says he doesn't know. It may depend on who wins the next game. He doesn't have the gym booked for much longer, and there is no one available on Father's Day to extend the hours. Plus we have reached the end of the time we paid for the referees (because we started 3.5 hours late). I tell him that it is Father's Day, we have many fathers here away from their families at a tournament that was supposed to end hours ago. And they need to make a decision. He says "OK, you are not playing any more games today. We will hold the championship game Wednesday night".

I am steaming that we spent 7 hours at the gym to play 1 game, and that we sat around for 2 hours only to be told we were not playing any more games. But there is nothing to be done about it. I drop the other kids off, go home with S15 to our house with no air conditioning (it broke Friday and needs parts that are not available on weekends), fuming. I want to go to pool club to relax. Mrs. Hold and kids are not enthusiastic about joining me. I am torn and frustrated and hot and unhappy.

Mrs. Hold sees this and rallies the troops. Kids, today is Father's Day and Dad needs a lift so get moving we are going to the pool. Gets everyone organized. A frozen drink and dip in the pool later, I am in much better spirits. Kids ended up having a great time. Sshhhh, don't tell anyone that S15 played catch with D13 in and out of the pool for the better part of an hour. She doesn't want him to realize how long it was. She was in heaven.

Then we went out to dinner. Food was good and we stuffed ourselves and brought home leftovers so S15 has dinner for tomorrow when Mrs. Hold will not be there to cook.

Then Mrs. Hold sat with me for an hour watching "my show". Which lasted for another 2 hours but come on we cannot refrain from watching reality tv for the entire night. So after an hour of watching my show and holding hands I watched the rest of my show in another room. Which was fine with me. Nice of her to watch my show at all.

So we salvaged what could have been an ugly day. Did not require sex to do it. Maybe life is not so bad.

You would think you were fabulous and admirable if you acted fab, eh?

See how your belief is real...and not real...only going one way?

Too scary to experience greatness, eh?

By doing great?

Not allowing for one second for you to lie to yourself and believe you're a pathetic loser and keep doing that loop.

You'd do so if it were your DD or DS saying that...and most likely, they do...because they hear you. Well, maybe at times they do.

Chicken and the egg, my friend. Choose the chicken. Or be the egg. Not both...act and your feelings follow.

Have you considered the severe hubris in believing God made you a pathetic loser? This inverted shame as an entitlement?

I don't believe you choose to act to your pathetic loser ideal...you don't with your kids (you spend time with them)...unless...

:::thought germinates:::

you're going to say, "See? I even fail at being a consistently pathetic loser."

LOL

I wouldn't put it past you, Hold.

LA

This is so wrong of me to post, but I can't get past why you go to the kitchen for video games and what TV show you are referring to.

TV program was The Phantom, a made for tv movie on SyFy channel. 3 hours long. No way Mrs. Hold would watch more than 1 hour with me. I was glad she would watch any of it.

Video game is in kitchen because that was where the HD tv lives. We don't yet have one in the living room. Video games work better on 32" hd tv than on the 36" low def analog tv. Kitchen was priority because Mrs. Hold spends much time there. So I got her the HD tv as a present. By the time I get home from work, and help kids with homework (if needed), everyone else is done with the kitchen for the day. So it is my "playroom" at night. Make sense?

Is The Phantom based on the old movie serial and 90s movie with Billy Zane (I can't remember which % of milk to buy but I remember things like Billy Zane starred in The Phantom).

Will HD make the 16-bit Sega Genesis system that I still have look better? We do own a Wii (not totally stuck in 1992).

I find myself making excuses why Mrs. Hold and I have zero UA time. It costs money we don't have. I get horny and she won't consent to sex. If we want to be in love, we have to find ways to make spending time together enjoyable for both of us.

Mrs. Hold and D13 will be at swimming nationals the next 5 days. So obviously no UA time.

S15 played with his friends all weekend. Good for him. So I was alone. Saturday I went to a bar to watch the world cup. OK for one afternoon but I could not see myself enjoying that on a regular basis.

Sunday I intended to go to the pool club but S15 invited some friends over so I stayed home to make sure nothing improper happened. Watched tv and played PS3 most of the day after I finished my gardening, weeding, etc.

Felt lonely without Mrs. Hold. This is what I imagine single life would be. Me sitting alone at home playing PS3. I could not afford to join the pool club after divorce. A big part of why I stay married.

I do think it is good that you felt lonely without Mrs. Hold. If you didn't care one way or the other, that would mean you are completely detached.

Hey man, long time, no post.

For some reason I just got an itch to post.

I guess it was because I was reading about some guy on the vikings fan page whose wife had a fling with a bride's maid and one of his groomsmen BEFORE he was married. This was 10 years ago and he's freaking out! That made me think of all of the 10 page posts I had back in the day.

Here's an update:

1. Still married... happy actually. Had our 16 year anniversary this year.
2. The physical part is on again off again... but I have gotten older and it's simply not that big of a deal any more. When it's on, it's good. When it's off I don't obsess like I used to.
3. It's hard to tell whether she is happy... I think she is. Of course she would say it's because she has resigned herself to being married to me! I think she has gotten past the poor poor pitiful phase and realizes that I have been and still am a pretty good husband. Plus she knows I love her.
4. We're both 42 now. She's still pretty hot and my feelings in that department haven't changed.
5. No affairs... not even close... is there something wrong with me? Just kidding.
6. 3 Girls are now 11, 13, 15... ugggghhhhh. If I hear "I don't care" or "I hate you" or "Why do I have to do your work?" again this week I am going to scream. I mentioned this behavior to my dad and he (in his infinite wisdom) said to ignore them for the next 10 years and then it will be better. He's Dr. Phil without the drawl.
7. Looking back, I realize that I have occassionally been in a bad way. I know I stressed out my MIL as recently as 2 years ago and I think I probably messed up a friendship that my wife had by asking for help in getting through some of the tough times. It makes me realize that when things are tough we should confide in God... he doesn't stop being your spouse's friend and you don't worry that he'll bring it up over a family dinner some time.
8. I am in a pretty good place work wise. I am working for a regional trucking company as a controller. The $$$ are okay but I have been with the company through thick and thin for the past 5 years and have worked my way up to being a key player in the organization. I have a female boss who is buying the company who I respect immensely... and fear more than my wife to be honest. But she gets the best out of me.
9. I was in your next of the woods just recently. We went on a 3 week trip out east and passed through CT on the way from Charlottesville, VA to Boston. I actually thought about how your were doing for the 1st time in a long time.
10.I started working out in January for the 1st time in about 10 years. I am 6'3", but I hit 240 lbs so I figured I had to do something. Unfortunately, I messed up my shoulder in April working with my dad when I was visiting my parents. That caused me to sleep wierd so then I threw my back out 10 days before I was to leave with the family on vacation... I got it fixed and we went on vacation, but my shoulder still hurts a bit and now my siatic nerve is bothering me. Uggghhh... old age. But I was down to 231 when I got back from vacation and I am in a lot better cardio shape and have toned up a bit too... so it's mostly for the good. I recall you were doing that when I dropped off the site a long time ago.
11. Overall, I am at a way different place in my life than when I came on the site 12-13 years ago. Mostly it's better... heck it's all better. I like the patience and wisdom that age brings. Things don't get me as riled up as the used to, which is good.

How are you doing?

STIM

Hey STIM. Great to "hear" from you. Glad to read that you have achieved some peace.

I have not. Age has not brought me wisdom or acceptance. I feel myself becoming a grumpy old man. I still get riled up at my wife. I realize she puts up with plenty from me but I don't care. I feel she owes me anyway. Wish I had better news to report on the marriage side.

Or the work side. I choose not to put in 100% out of spite at my wife. So I get what I deserve. Just treading water instead of flourishing.

The bright side is that the kids are great. I just dropped off S15 at school. He is going to Bermuda for a week on a science / scuba trip. D13 is at Niagara Falls for synchro age group national championships. Mrs. Hold is chaperoning.

I have plenty to be thankful for. I simply don't choose to be thankful. All on me.

Thanks again for stopping by. I have fond memories of hashing things out with you and Star all those years ago. Glad to hear you feel your life is better. I hope that continues. All the best.

Mrs. Hold and D13 arrived back home yesterday. Great hugs from D13. Mrs. Hold actually gave me a short hug. We talked for a while about the trip. I had dinner (the girls had eaten earlier). Then back to the bedroom for more talking and watching reality tv. Then sleep.

Woke up early. Mrs. Hold allowed me to put my arm on her shoulder. But no "receptivity moves". I fell back asleep with my arm over her. That is nice cuddling and intimacy which she often rejects, so I was pleased she allowed me to touch more than her hand. But again no movement or receptivity to taking it further.

When I got ready for work, I said "I was hoping you would put moves on me this morning." Then left.

Hold,

Sorry you haven't found peace...

But it's like I have told my frightfully lazy, know-it-all 15 YOD, the true challenge in life is internal, not external. You can conquer the world and if you haven't mastered your own emotions, you haven't achieved anything.

As you probably recall, your and my situations weren't all that different. Distant wife. Little physical intimacy. Work issues.

I have been there with you. Maybe I didn't fight with depression to the extent you did/do. My wife probably wasn't the spendthrift that your's was/is. But my wife's and my relationship was similar to what you and your's were going through.

I know I have been to the dark places emotionally too. I don't know what brought me back exactly.

As I think about it, I probably am a lot like my stoic father. He isn't much of a conversationalist but we were discussing happiness in life and I said that friends, family and work were like the 3 legged stool with your spirituality/god as the seat that holds it all together. I said that you can survive if you have some of those pieces working and if you have ALL of them working you really shouldn't tell anybody about it. His reply was that's true as long as one of things that is working well is your job.

Yes.

I have been with my current company over 5 years and have worked my way up to being the controller (in all but title). We have been through some horrific times financially during that period, but we pulled together when the economy tanked and are now more profitable than any time in the company's history. Now, I am one of the 3-4 key people in the company, my boss is buying the company from the absentee owner and I am hoping and praying that I can work here and continue to build the company until I can retire (say at the age of 110 or so based upon my current rate of savings). But work is definitely been the recipient of a lot of my energy and has been a source of pride and achievement for me.

Ironically, my boss has pushed all of us to have a work/life balance. This from the person that works 80 hours per week! But she is earnest about it.

So starting in January I started to exercise (as I recall you were doing for a long time). I am down about 10 lbs from 240 to about 230, but I feel way better. I have begun to get home by 5:30 or so at night. We took a 3 week vacation for the 1st time to the east coast in May and June.

In the month of June I think we were intimate about 3 times. But that was after about 5 months of nothing after my wife had her hystorectomy in December. But since I was working on improving me during that time it really wasn't a huge source of stress.

I am sure we will settle back into our old, little SF, grind again. But it really doesn't bother me because I am content, work is good, friends are good, I know I love my wife and I also know she loves me. She may NEVER love me exactly the way I would like. But you know what? I don't know that if I had regular SF that I would appreciate it as much or that I would be any happier than I am now.

In fact, I know that I am the type of person that if I was getting SF regularily, I would complain about the lack of variety or the fact that it had been a week with no contact. It would be more of a physical act/ release than real intimacy.

Yes, I have a lot of things in my life that could be much better but in the grand scheme of things it's really pretty good and I am happy for the most part. I certainly am no longer the person that let's the perfect get in the way of the good.

As I said above, I am glad that you have found acceptance. You are making a far wiser choice than I am. Good to hear.

Mrs. Hold was curt on the phone all day and was in a pissy mood when I got home last night. I asked if anything was bothering her and she said "I didn't like that you said what you said this morning and then left to go to work". I thanked her for sharing her feelings with me.

We talked a little (not about that topic - gossip about D13's swim team and S15's trip). Then I had dinner and she came in to sit with me and talk more. Then I downloaded the pictures from the camera she and D13 took to Nationals. Made a disk to send to her father. She was still in a pissy mood when I tried to talk to her again, so I played PS3.

I call BS on her not liking the manner in which I presented my message. Yes, I know that is a DJ.

Wedneday night they got home from Nationals. I said to Mrs. Hold "I missed you. I want us to be romantically in love with one another. Can we work on that together?" She rollled her eyes and said "oh no, are we going to talk about that again". So she is seriously saying that she did not want to talk about being romantically in love on Wednesday night, but she wanted an opportunity to discuss my disappointment with the lack of sex on Thursday morning? Not. Bloody. Likely.

We did have something resembling an open and honest discussion of what bothers her about me. My not being strong and confident and a shark at work. I said I know it bothers her. She told me not to put words in her mouth. I agreed that was a DJ. I asked her how she feels. She said it bothers her that I am not strong and confident and a shark at work. I told her I know. I asked her if she was looking for someone safe and gentle in her personal life when she picked me. She said she was. I asked if she regreted not realizing that safe and gentle at home might mean something other than sharky at the office. She said she did.

Look people, I know what I need to do to improve my relationship. Kick butt at work so Mrs. Hold is impressed with me. I refuse to do that. So, as usual, I am getting what I signed up for. If I want to have a good relationship with Mrs. Hold, I need to kick butt at work. If I choose not to even try, then I have no one to blame except myself for her not respecting me. After all, I don't respect myself, either.

Hold, you understand that when there are overnight separations, that it can take a day or two for either spouse to feel "warmed up enough" to be willing to attempt SF, correct? I don't think there are any bad guys here.

Nonsense. We are both "bad guys".

And I realize your point is valid for some / many people. However, it is inapplicable to us. My wife basically never warms up enough. She is never in the mood for sex WITH ME. So there is no point saying "maybe in a couple of days of pleasant interaction she will be in the mood, don't rock the boat by being impatient". No amount of patience is sufficient to get us to where she is in the mood.

Or to put it differently, I understand that when spouses are in a State of Intimacy, physical separation can cause them to feel less connected. In that case, they will need time together to re-establish Intimacy. My wife and I are never in a State of Intimacy. So being apart does not cause us to disconnect. And being together does not bring us closer emotionally. In fact, we tend to get along better when we are apart. With sex out of the picture, there is far less tension in our interaction. It is when we are physically together that we have big problems.

I cannot envision us entering the State of Intimacy unless I were far more successful professionally / financially than I expect to ever become. Hence my profound doubt as to whether we will ever be Intimate. Hence my doubt that I will ever experience SF.

I didn't say I expected her to make moves. I know better. I merely said I was hoping she would. Because it would have been nice. Even though I knew it was only the remotest of possibilities.

ho2i,

I have not revisited this ongoing thread for a long time, and this just struck me as harsh:

Why do you think that? What has your wife said to make you think that her lack of interest in sex is tied to money?

Is it FS for herself?
Is it Financial Insecurity?
Is it status?
Is it diminished Admiration for you, which is connected to low interest in SF?

All of the above.

She wants more FS. She wants to be able to redo the kitchen and all 3 bathrooms. She wishes we had another bedroom and bathroom so the grandparents could stay in our house when they visit. She wants to go on vacations with the kids far away and stay at fancy hotels and eat at fancy restuaurants. She wants designer clothes and jewelry. She wants to write checks to pay 100% of tuition, room, board, costs and spending money for both our children for as long as they continue in higher education.

She expected based on my job and education when we met that I would be able to provide this for her. She feels cheated that I cannot. Just as cheated as I feel that she can't provide me with more / better sex.

She wants more social status. We are among the least wealthy people in our town. Everyone has fancier houses, cars, clothes, etc.

She has no Respect or Admiration for me. She feels I am weak and spineless. She has zero sexual interest in me.

And she isn't wrong to feel that way. I am weak and spineless.

FWIW, as posted earlier in this thread, we were discussing precisely that last night. And she admitted her disappointment in me. And how it affects her desire for me. So this is not a DJ or me putting words in her mouth. This is how she feels.

This is not rocket science. She has told me what her ENs are. I have told her they are not going to be met while she remains married to me. Just how "in love" with me do you expect her to feel? Same thing in the opposite direction.

I hear what you are saying, HO2I, and I believe it, because I have seen it before, but it makes no sense to me. As long as someone is doing the best they can at work, how can you not have admiration for them? I suppose there is no married man who has not had his wife lose her admiration for his vocational abilities, at least temporarily - even Bill Gates, Thomas Edison, J. Paul Getty.

I have friends who are stockbrokers whose income is down 80%, and others who are only down 60% because they picked up the accounts of the brokers who quit. Real estate salesmen and brokers who have sold one house in the last year - didn't pay for their fuel, tires, cell phone and coffee. Are their wives (or husbands) supposed to punish them for no being able to earn 4 or 5 times as much as the other people in their office, because that's what it would require.

What kind of work do you do, HO2I? Has it been hit hard in this economy? Is it the kind of work where you could move to a cheaper place to live, make the same income, afford a nicer house, or at least not be comparing yourselves to those around you?