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#2396578 06/25/10 11:00 PM
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KiwiJ Offline OP
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I hear this a lot on MB. I never felt entitled. I didn't want to pay my H back (there was nothing to pay back, he was and is a wonderful man), I didn't want to do something for "me". Something for me would have been to take a paper at university or take up watercolour painting again, something I've now done. I thought then and I think now, that an A is a terrible thing to do. That's why the guilt made me drink like a fish and lose so much weight people thought I was seriously ill.

Entitlement was just not something that applied to me.

KiwiJ #2396581 06/25/10 11:17 PM
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"entitlement" isn't about wanting "to pay my H back"...

instead...

Wayward entitlement refers to that sense of entitlement that says in essence "I deserve to feel passion again, to feel excitement and if my spouse won't or isn't giving it to me I'm going to find it elsewhere."

Only psychopaths that lack any notion of right or wrong can undertake committing adultery ABSENT entitlement.

At some point...you too KNEW it was wrong but felt entitled to do it anyway....

I hope.

Mr. Wondering


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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KiwiJ Offline OP
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Yes, I suppose I felt "entitled" to do it anyway. There was no passion or excitement missing from my marriage. It was always passionate and exciting, before, during and after the A. I wasn't looking elsewhere. I didn't need any other drama in my life, dealing with our grief as we were.

I knew it was wrong, of course I knew it was wrong. Hence, the guilt and the panic attacks.

KiwiJ #2396589 06/25/10 11:36 PM
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I found the below googling "entitlement"...I know it says "Americans" but I felt "entitled" to post it as a universal generality anyway...


Quote:
Our Society: The Sense of Entitlement
Do you have a sense of entitlement? Before you say no, read this article.


Our Society: The Sense of Entitlement

It many not be true of every single person in the country, but in general, Americans have a sense of entitlement. It basically means that people feel that the world owes them something, they take the things they have for granted, and they expect to get things without giving first. Do you think that maybe you have a sense of entitlement? Keep thinking about it as you read on.

Some children grow up with a sense of entitlement. We all know that little ones want what they want, exactly when they want it. Unfortunately, it doesnt stop there. Teenagers often run themselves and their parents into deep debt because they have to have the latest fashion and technology. Many do poorly in school because they expect every grade to come easily, and even worse they pass their classes with a social promotion doing little more than going to class.

Complaints about any delay, inconvenience or restriction fill the thoughts and conversation of those who have this sense of entitlement. Learning, money, material goods, promotion and reward are expected, even though they do nothing more than the bear minimum. After a life of having things handed to them, they enter the world and wait for good things to happen.

Do you find yourself complaining about how things are not fair, how others should make things easier for you, or that if you do what you are supposed to do you should be rewarded, congratulated or thanked? That sounds like the sense of entitlement to me.

How can we overcome the sense of entitlement?

I have to confess that I am guilty. I know that I have taken certain things in my life for granted, and I have been blessed not to have the struggles that many other people around me have. At the same time, I also know that the attitude that the world owes me something is weak and foolish, and wont help me succeed in life. With that said, let us try to change this attitude, in ourselves, and in our children.

We have to realize and accept the following truths to rid ourselves of the hindrance that the sense of entitlement creates.

Life is not fair. Sometimes people have more, but only because they earned it. At the same time, there are other people who work harder and have less than you. Try not to focus on the people who have more but seem to do less.

No one owes us anything. Everything you have is a gift, right down to the air you breathe.

Goals and dreams can only be attained through hard work and a willingness to never quit. Success is not going to chase you down, you have to make it come to you.

There will always be inconvenience. You are special, and I am sure you have wonderful qualities, but you will have to wait sometimes, just like everyone else.

Hopefully, we can all absorb this reality and be thankful for what we have. Hard work needs to be a part of our lives in order to reach our goals. We cant just barely meet requirements and expect exceptional rewards.

If we strive to better ourselves with gratitude and ambition, our personal achievements will replace our sense of entitlement with a sense of accomplishment.

By Chesley Maldonado

Source: http://www.buzzle.com/articles/our-society-the-sense-of-entitlement.html

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KiwiJ Offline OP
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Nope. That doesn't describe me. I have always felt that if you want something you work for it. The world does NOT owe us a living. I see entitlement in the students I deal with every day. They think the university owes them something. No, it doesn't. You get your degree by your own hard work, not by people making allowances for you.

My father grew up in an orphanage and fought to become a lawyer (attorney) by his own hard work and guts. That's what he taught me and my sister. Everything Rob and I own and everything we've done is through our own hard work. I grew up in a family where I had a private education and no, money wasn't a problem. I never felt entitled to be privileged - I learned that hard work and determination got those things. Not luck or entitlement.

KiwiJ #2396601 06/26/10 12:50 AM
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Hi Jen,

When you had your affair with your old BF, I believe you did feel entitled to recover those long lost feelings. I think if you could go back to those times when the affair was on, you felt entitled. Entitlment often means doing things because you want to although you KNOW they are wrong.

Here is something for you to consider. You and Rob have recovered your marriage. It has been years since your affiar. It seems to me the very fact that you don't recall feeling entitled suggests that you have recovered. That sense of entitlement often comes with the "fog" we all talk about here. Yours cleared years ago, and now you cannot even imagine feel "entitled" to have your pleasures met as you wish with whoever you wished.

I think the "entitlement" is actually a by product of the rationalization people do, when they KNOW they are doing something wrong and want to justify it. And as we all have said many times on this site, people in affairs often act very very contrary to their normal pattern and against all of their upbringing.

I believe your last statement really implies this. Your upbringing was in fact to work for everything you have gotten. Your upbringing was to be honest, honorable, and appreciate what life has given you. But, I know when you came here, your upbringing wasn't shining all that bright and I think that is the crux of the "entitlement" arguement.

The "entitlement" often comes from the justification of what we are doing, knowing it is not earned, right, or honorable. I am reminded of the old saying.
Quote:
A child NEEDS what they want, and adult WANTS what they need.
My guess is that when in an affair this holds true as well.

Just thoughts. Hope you and Rob are having a great time down there.

JL

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Thanks JL. Yes we are having a great time. We are SO happy. So looking forward to our grandbaby in November. A little girl!!!!!!!!!

Yes, I have completely forgotten how I felt during the A. Isn't that wonderful!!!!!!!!

When you say that about my upbringing. My father would have been HORRIFIED by my A. He'd have given me a VERY stern talking to.

KiwiJ #2396607 06/26/10 01:00 AM
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Hi Jen,

I am sure he would have. But there is good news in all of this isn't there? You appreciate Rob more now than ever don't you? You appreciate your upbringing more now than ever don't you. You also appreciate all that you have learned even if you wish you could have learned it some other way, don't you?

Entitlement is a huge problem for a lot of young kids and it is a product of success of their parents and their justifications for the choices they make.

I will tell you that I was smiling when I read your post where you said you didn't feel entitled. wink It means you truly have recovered and you are the Jen your H has loved all of these years.

Your father would have been horrified about your A. He would be proud that you have in deed done the work to recover. He would also be very proud of the man you selected to be your husband. He has done well.

God Bless,

JL

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Hey Jen,

I remember IMing with you during your breaking of NC with OM. I just want to tell you that I can clearly remember the entitlement and justification you used during that time. In fact it scared the cr-p out of me if you remember.

Years later it IS hard to put yourself back into the thought process that led us to do the inthinkable. That is why I try to remind myself where that entitlement landed me.

Congratulations on the baby girl your DD is having!! I so look forward to being a grandma some day.


Faith

me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
KiwiJ #2396724 06/26/10 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted By: KiwiJ
I hear this a lot on MB. I never felt entitled. I didn't want to pay my H back (there was nothing to pay back, he was and is a wonderful man), I didn't want to do something for "me". Something for me would have been to take a paper at university or take up watercolour painting again, something I've now done. I thought then and I think now, that an A is a terrible thing to do. That's why the guilt made me drink like a fish and lose so much weight people thought I was seriously ill.

Entitlement was just not something that applied to me.



This doesn't jive at all when examined against this;


Originally Posted By: KiwiJ
I guess I had the A with the old BF because when I saw him again all the old feelings came rushing back and I felt like I'd been hit over the head with a sledgehammer. Also, when we were young we never had sex and it was something I always felt I "owed" him. I left him when we were young for someone else, not H, and he was absolutely devastated. Also we were at a funeral with many old friends from the past and my teenage years started looking very appealing. No excuses though.

H and I had also been through a very tough time the year before as my dad died in the January and then his mother died in the May and his father died in the October. All very stressful and he and I were both very depressed. I suppose old BF was a bright spot in a very tough time.

As for listening to H, yes I do and thank him for loving me so much. I have been in particularly bad withdrawal from OM and he has been as supportive as he can, given how hurt and bad he feels. I also support him and make sure we talk and spend loads of time together. We try to be positive at all times and this has really helped us move forward. We both want to save this marriage (I couldn't have cared 6 months ago)which, up to the last 2 years, was very good. I'm nearly 50 and I think started questioning my life to date including marriage, work etc.

Don't get me wrong, we have had some very unhappy moments in the last 3 months but finally I seem to have made some sort of breakthrough into my fog and that's the best part of all.

KiwiJ



Kiwi,

I look at these two posts and can't reconcile the idea that you somehow consider that you never felt entitled.

And JL (and I do love JL) can try to coddle you with this bullcrap of you must be recovered if you don't remember you were entitled, but I disagree vehemently.


When I've read your threads and posts, (and,I've read them ALL) I see a whacked out, peice of chit, ENTITLED, wayward wife that nearly destroyed her husband, her children and ultimately herself.... all because she lurved OM!
Broke NC, and you even felt ENTITLED to keep that secret until you were ratted out by Mel.

........

Truth is, neither you nor I deserve our marriages.... What we deserved was to be tossed to the curb. I don't care how good we may have been before or after our A's.... WE DESERVED THE CURB! To think anything else is PURE ENTITLEMENT!

You seem to have a problem accepting how entitled you actually are/were, and to be honest, I'm extremely put off by this. It's as if you think you deserve your marriage because you've always "worked so hard". That, in and of itself, is so ENTITLED it reaks!

You either CONVIENIENTLY forget, or somehow you think you did your husband some HUGE favor by giving HIM a second chance?!

I don't get this denial of ENTITLEMENT at all!

But I'm sure you feel ENTITLED to claim it.... After all, look how hard you work for everything you have!

crazy





Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
KiwiJ #2396729 06/26/10 10:24 AM
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Kiwi, you won't get any coddling from me either. You are as entitled as they come............ and in DENIAL.

You sure were entitled when I called your husband in NZ a few years ago. And still are.

DENIAL is not any indicator of recovery; it is just the opposite. A person who is not even HONEST about their entitlement mentality this far out is NOT in recovery. Honesty is the first step towards recovery and I have seen little of that in your posts over the years. I doubt you even own a Marriage Builders book or know the difference between a PITA and POJA.

You also raved about how "recovered" you were a few years back just before you hooked up with your OM. So, excuse me if I say I see no sign of "recovery" here. Never have..


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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My take as a man that has been tempted and a BH:

The affair develops because some folks fall in love easily when they have a strong emotional need.

Some folks fall in love and do awful things in the name of love. Maybe that is the fog.

These same folks feel they will never get caught so that is a form of entitlement.

They must also have the capacity to live in two compartments.

They generally have some memes that are useful for cheating.

They listen to emotions rather than to their brains.

All of us can do the above, but some are a little farther from the center of the normal curve.

An addictive personality helps.

Last edited by Stan-ley; 06/26/10 10:29 AM.

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Stan-ley #2396830 06/26/10 02:38 PM
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Entitlement thinking (IMO) is a Taker mentality. And our Taker is behind all LBs and IBs.

An affair is about as IB as one can get.

So yeah, I think affairees in the throes of an affair are definitely falling prey to an entitlement mentality. I think even before that, a spouse whose $LB is overdrawn or near zero, and isn't thinking proper EPs and is thinking with their Taker, is letting that entitlement mentality creep in.

KiwiJ #2396850 06/26/10 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted By: KiwiJ
I hear this a lot on MB. I never felt entitled. I didn't want to pay my H back (there was nothing to pay back, he was and is a wonderful man), I didn't want to do something for "me". Something for me would have been to take a paper at university or take up watercolour painting again, something I've now done. I thought then and I think now, that an A is a terrible thing to do. That's why the guilt made me drink like a fish and lose so much weight people thought I was seriously ill.

Entitlement was just not something that applied to me.

An affair is the embodiment, the very definition, of entitlement. It is in and of itself doing something "for me"; it surely isn't doing something for someone else. There is no altruism involved in having an affair.

If an affairee thought at the time that having an A was a terrible thing to do and did it anyway, then in finding a justification for doing it, such as "I am unhappy", they are expressing entitlement.

An affair is living, breathing entitlement. A recovered wayward who has grown and learned and who takes responsibility for what they did would never seek to deny their entitled mentality at the time.


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
SugarCane #2396875 06/26/10 05:17 PM
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Quote:
It is in and of itself doing something "for me"; it surely isn't doing something for someone else. There is no altruism involved in having an affair.


I think that kiwi would disagree because of this previous post of hers...

Quote:
Also, when we were young we never had sex and it was something I always felt I "owed" him. I left him when we were young for someone else, not H, and he was absolutely devastated.


Sounds like she felt she was doing him a favor by having sex with him. Something like mercy sex I reckon.

And why...why would you want to enter someone's life again after the earlier end of the relationship left someone devastated...unless you felt entitled to do it?

I would never assume that the lack of my presence in someone's life would "devastate" them to begin with...but hey, that's just me. I don't see myself as all that and a bag of chips.

AND....I don't think that having sex with someone is doing them some enormous favor...< ick factor on> sick

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I just wrote a bunch of stuff on the ruthless WW thread so I won't repeat myself (though I LOVE to talk).

I am a WW who was DEFINITELY entitled. I remember thinking things like, "I have been alone in my marriage for xxx time. I deserve to feel SOMETHING. I deserve someone who WANTS me." blech. I was more concerned with gettin' some so I could "bear" my marriage and not be looked down upon for divorce....Yeah, I was pretty much the selfish b@tch. Sometimes I wish I couldn't remember it, but maybe it's a writer thing...I pretty much remember EVERYTHING in my life. I wrapped it up in pitiful loneliness and "luuurv" at the time, but it was really a mix of cowardice, entitlement, and manic sex drive.

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There is not a single wayward who was not afflicted with SELF-ENTITLEMENT.

It is the very essence of cheating, lying, betraying, value-breaking, two-timing, selling-out, and rationalization. Its pretty much impossible to have any type of inappropriate extra-marital relationship without a great deal of self-entitlement. This is clear when you recite traditional wedding vows:

for better & for worse, for richer & for poorer, in sickness & in health, forsaking all others, till death do you part

and when you read the Biblical definition of real love:

Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. [1 Corinthians 13: 4-7]

In a pure-EA, the WS feels entitled to all the attention, affirmation, conversation, recreation, compliments, etc. that the OP offers. There is no way whatsoever that anyone can be compelled by another into being receptive to any of the above against their willit is simply not possible. The WS CHOOSES TO ACCEPT OUT OF ENTITLEMENT.

In a PA, the WS feels entitled to the physical/sexual gratifications, contacts, and pleasures that the OP offers. There is no way whatsoever that anyone can be compelled by another into being receptive to any of the above against their willit is simply not possible. The WS CHOOSES TO ACCEPT OUT OF ENTITLEMENT. [Obviously, rape is not receptive sexual contact]

We all know that the vast majority of affairs involve BOTH of the above. The WS almost always justifies their sense of self-entitlement by blaming his/her BS for not adequately or properly meeting some of these needs beforehand. This may very well be a true and legitimate complaint, but it is expressed in the most misdirected, misguided, selfish, unproductive, and sinful way possible. Very few BSs were malicious or intentional in their oversights or neglects; ALL WSs were malicious and intentional in their self-entitlements and affairs.


xWW:
Secret LTA w/ thrice married OM at her workplace; EA/PA starts ~ 2005-6
Files & completes D - 2007, OM/OMW#3 D - 2007, Affairage - immediately thereafter
Disappears in 2006 w/o even a goodbye to anyone, Never a paragraph of real truth ever spoken
Me/xBH:
M "for life", Suspicions (denied) & desperate Plan A latter-half '06
1st D-day 1/07, full truth D-day 7/08 (all via 3rd parties)
NC w/ xWW 8/08-date, better off w/o unrepentant vileness, betrayal, & rampant deceit in my life anymore
SDCW_man #2397028 06/27/10 10:57 AM
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Quote:
There is not a single wayward who was not afflicted with SELF-ENTITLEMENT.


I would have to agree...because we NEVER do something that is WRONG...unless we feel ENTITLED to do it.

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Kiwi - in 12 step programs we say "you spot it you got it"

I'm amazed that you started this thread, on this particular topic, yet stay in that place of denial.

Me thinks you wanted to dig out a character defect and get rid of it, and you wanted our help to do it.

Kiwi - I think you have a tremendous amount of potential to be a strong advocate for marriage and recovery; and you're a very likable person. Promise that you will dig into why you started this thread for you personally? Even if you take it off the board? Promise?

You deserve full psychological and emotional freedom that denial deprives you of. Entitlement, on any level is the brick wall in your way.

Last edited by KaylaAndy; 06/27/10 11:25 AM. Reason: completing the final thought.

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