This is depressing even to read. Out of the dozens of pieces of good advice you have gotten, you haven't used even one of them, have you?

I really think you don't want to change because you don't really want a loving, equal, romantic partnership with your wife, because that would be uncomfortable and maybe scary to you. It really seems like you just want to get her to start working again so that you can continue being comfortably unhappy with your marriage and having your real relationships elsewhere. But if that is really what you want, what are you doing here? Surely there is some website out there where you can learn how to effectively manipulate people without having to be honest with them...

I believe her biggest need is affection/affirmation. Both her and I aware of this and know that I am not very good at it either.
I think both of our needs are important, but without FS it is hard to pay the bills, keep the house, have children, etc.

And I don't understand why Vibrissa keeps saying that the financial issue is not the core of the problem right now.

If a quality job comes along, gets applied for, and offered, the financial situation is solved. Thus we move on to fixing/tweaking other things.

The one thing I can say I have learned from this forum/site, once the financial situation is on solid ground, I do want to improve other aspects of the marriage, not just keep it at status quo.

The reason why you blow up is because you hold it in for so long. You're like a pressure cooker...as long as there's a little venting, everything works well. But stop venting, and KABOOM.

You just need to learn how to say what you're feeling without 'completely going off'. And you begin that process by recognizing that whatever it is you are upset about is valid. So no need to 'go off', only need to state your thought.

"You completely ignored me at dinner, you a-hole!"

can easily be said as, "I felt really ignored at dinner tonight and I'm not liking you much right now because of that."

So you are going to hold your affection hostage until she gets a good job?

Renter anyone?

I don't hold affection hostage from her. Even in the times when we have been financially stable or even doing better than stable, I have never been good at affection. It is not intentional.

Tom, Proverbs 28-13:

"He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but who confesses and renounces them finds mercy."

Your behavior is preventing you from receiving God's blessings.

But you are saying you won't try to improve it until she improves something (gets a job). My point is, that is not caring and will not result in romantic love.

Why not start now? It won't get in the way of her finding a job.

MAKE it intentional. Make an intentional effort to be affectionate.

Please pardon typos I'm on my iPod. Will edit when I can



So your needs trump hers b/c they're more important?

DH has a high need for affection too. I'm not good at affection but I've learned to be because I love him.

Not being in love IS the core of your problems. You remind me of those people who say once I get my own place, things will be better. Once I graduate things will be better. Once I get a job things will be better. When I have a kid. When the kids are toddlers. When the kids are grown. When I retire..... And life miserably passes them by.

You make your marriage better NOW.

You make it better by creating love with your wife.

What happens if she gets a job and then is fired? You going to stop loving her?

Your problem isn't FS. It's a lack of love.

Tom, let me just remind you that you could fix your financial woes a lot faster by selling your truck. The one you had to take out a loan to pay for because you could not afford it.

Then that problem would be much smaller and you could work on the other problems in your marriage.

Eventually you could get to a point where problems like FS are resolved to the point where you can actually afford a truck.

I do try and make an effort to be affectionate. It is not easy, and for the most part I do it for her. Occaisionally I enjoy it, but it is mostly for her.

I still don't understand why Vib feels the need to say FS isn't the problem. I also don't see what is wrong with viewing it as the most important. I'm not talking about lavish materials; just paying the bills and putting food on the table, getting out of debt, those things are a necessity to life. It is hard for me to even imagine the other EN's without this.

I will also say, the description of who I remind you of....nail on the head.

But affection is learned behavior. You can start learning, here, how to be better at it.

The question is why do you feel like FS has to be resolved first, before doing that? Why do you provide the one and only objective view about what order your marital problems need to be resolved in? Why doesn't your wife get input?

There's nothing wrong with having your own priorities.

What's wrong is disrespecting your wife's priorities.

Markos, let me remind you. We have discussed the vehicle before. It is reliable, wont need to have money spent often to fix problems, and we got a good deal on it, so it is not a huge payment. We have other debt that is significantly more. Right now I just want to pay the bills, we can get back to building up a savings later.

What size payment are we talking about? I can almost guarantee you are paying more there than you would for a mechanic for a good, reliable, used, affordable vehicle. I could be wrong. But most people who say they need a "reliable" vehicle don't understand that they can get a reliable vehicle for $3-$5K.

Now, if you took out a loan for $3000 or so and got a reliable vehicle for that money, I'll shut up.


Every little bit helps.


I agree with that priority.

I am done discussing the vehicles. Many other means to get by will happen before anything is done about the vehicles and I know that my wife would agree with that. She is very happy with the vehicle situation.

I know that every little bit helps. The goal though is to get back to where we were and more. I would eventually like to change jobs so that I can make more money as well. That will more than likely have to wait, but I am trying to make plans to be able to do it.

Along with Vib's point - you first need to have 15 hours of UA time, radical honesty, and the policy of joint agreement in place before you can expect ENs and LBs to improve.

Without those in place you are not going to be honest with your wife and so resentment may build and she will have no clue she is hurting your love for her. If she doesn't find a job, the lack of UA time along with lack of honesty will result in you having an AO. Without the POJA and RH, resolving the issue at that point will be a challenge without doing major damage to her love for you. Getting those things in place first then makes meeting ENs and avoiding LBs easier.

We are suggesting that by wanting her to meet your EN of FS before you work on the marriage, you are putting the horse before the cart.

Here's the other quote I was looking for:

Luke 16:10 Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much.

You have been given a gift, in your wife. If you cannot be trusted to take care of this gift, you will not be given more gifts. You will be given a tough road instead.

Two ways to have FS: Make more, or need less.

You seem to only want to solve it YOUR way, which is make more.

Needing less is just as viable an option.

Yes, you need to eat. You could eat Ramen 10 cents a bag.
You could sell your car and buy one without having to make payments.
Get rid of cable.
No more dining out.
Cheaper internet bill.
Low cost date nights/ evenings out.

There are many ways to meet FS. You want it met YOUR way without discussion. That's fine but you wont even bother to negotiate to see if there are other ways to meet this need with your wife.

You cannot elevate your needs above hers because you need FS to pay the bills. FS is no more noble or worthy a need than any other.

FS is dead last on my list. If I could list it as 11 out of 10 I would. My first instinct is to say that you need to get over the FS issue because it isn't important - see because we automatically value what is important to us and devalue what is not.

But if FS were top on DH's list you can bet I'd be bustin' hump to work it out. Why? Because I love DH.

My advice is the same to those who have SF as a top need, or Affection, or DS.

FS ISN'T the problem.

The fact that you can't resolve this issue is a symptom of your problem.

Create romantic love! and you can learn to negotiate areas of difficulty. You can learn to negotiate areas where your ENs are lacking.

About affection:

I HATE HATE HATE being touched. It makes my skin crawl and my stomach turn - even from people I'm close to, sometimes even from DH.

DH NEEDS touch, he craves it. Sometimes just running my hand down his back is enough to eliminate his stress.

I have learned to be affectionate, because I love him. DH has commented on how good I am at it now. I made it a habit. I see DH I touch him in some way. Walking by him, I squeeze his hand. Sitting on the couch, I snuggle. He's sitting and I'm passing by, a hand through his hair or across his shoulders. He's looking tense I go hold him.

I made it a priority to get better at this and so I made new habits.

Sometimes I still get uncomfortable. Sometimes he wants to hold me and I just can't lay there for it, or for as long as he wants me to. I do my best for as long as I can and then I stop. He knows I'm making an effort and it means the world to him.

You can LEARN to do this. It doesn't change who you are - it just makes you a better spouse.

No problem. You don't have to address the points I raised if you don't want to.