Tom, did you miss the "forsaking all others" part of the marriage vows???

What do you think of that? Do you think they should read "and I promise to put you somewhere on the list, behind my family of origin and any future children, but most likely ahead of my cousin Ralph, but behind any special friends I have now or will have in the future"???

Honestly, Tom, what were you thinking of those vows?

Did you think it was just some pretty language or something?

Nothing to be taken seriously?

Forsaking all others...I took that to me, forsaking all others romantically. That is how I have always viewed those words.

I see it more as forsaking everything and everyone that is harmful to the marriage. Given the choice to back your mom or back your wife, you back your wife. You forsake golf with your buddies if it harms your marriage.

IOW, it is a promise to always put your spouse first.

I think you are close enough to what I was saying. I'm not trying to be witty about it. I'm just pointing out that most people just want to be happy. And for most people having a committed romantic relationship (i.e. a good marriage) is "foundational" for that. It's not the whole house, just the foundation.

It's true, that some people are not that way. Some people devote their lives to science or service or whatever. To them, achieving in those areas are "foundational." But to be honest, that is really rare. It may appear that way for a time, but over the duration of their lives, the importance of that good relationship tends to show itself. Let's face it, humans pair off.

Another thing to consider is that figuring out this "one thing" seldom works as a "thought experiment." There is a limit to our ability to think in the abstract and we seldom do this without bias. Which is a long winded way to say "try it out."

Finally, I have not read your whole thread, but if you are settling in your marriage for the "greater good" so to speak, I can say that is usually a ticking time bomb. People, especially as they reach nearer to mid life and beyond have a strong need to be authentic. Often they just don't realize how a lack of authenticity stresses them. This is true whether their marriage is the "one thing" or not. And authenticity shouldn't be taken as truthful or not per se, it's about being genuine.

I understand the idea that friends sometimes have to be set aside to benefit the marriage. Mom and sibling though, They have always been there. Regardless of how upset I could ever get at them and vice versa, that love will never go away.
I also understand that there may be times I have to back my wife as opposed to what they might say/believe, but the love for them will never go away, never fade. There is nothing they could do that would destroy that.

Of course, but to love one person does not keep you from loving others. To put your wife first doesn't mean you can't love your other family or kids too.

No one is talking about the destruction of the love you have for your family - who would even say such a thing, really? It's about priority.

However your wife must come first. Some day your children will leave, if you have not built a relationship with your wife throughout your marriage, then you will be strangers with nothing to hold you together. Your children will leave and build your own relationship. If your most important relationships are with them - you run the risk of interfering in their own future families and relationships (ever heard horror stories of in-laws who just can't let go?).

And as much as your children need your love - they need the stability a romantic loving marriage affords their family. They need to see their parents love each other, it helps them to form healthy relationships as they mature. The love you and your wife create forms the foundation for the happiness and safety of your children.

Building a loving marriage is the first act of love you can commit for your children. It is the first step you can take in giving them the best life you can.

I get that your family has always been there for you - they will continue to be there for you, but your wife needs to be your first priority. That's why the scripture reads:

For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. (Genesis 2:24)

Early on my husband thought like you - he'd be finding a wife who would be the future mother of his children. That's all he really cared about. Until he met me. Then he had to be with me - if the kids came along after or not, it didn't matter.

You know how much that means to me? That he chose to share his life with ME, not just a walking womb.

I read or hear how some people (from this site and from personal life expereince) say that their spouse is the most important person in the world to them. That other people will always take a back seat to them. I have always had a hard time with this concept. I have always viewed my really close family members and my potential (don't have any yet) kids as the most imporant people in my life. Yes, spouse is imporant. But for me, those family memebers that I love with all my heart and the kids I don't have yet, but know I will love with all my heart, there is nothing they could do that would take away that love. My love for them is unconditional. A spouse on the other hand, that is not unconditional love, that is not love that makes everything else fulfilling.
I don't know if that fit with what you were saying or not, but it is what came to mind.


Sorry, but I just have to respond to this. I've been reading for quite some time without posting, but this thread really struck a nerve with me.

I'm 62 years old and my husband is 63. We've been married 44 years, which means I was 18 and he was 19. We have 2 sons and 6 grandchildren. Our sons were raised to be independent and law abiding. We are very proud of our sons and the women they chose to marry. What I'm getting at is we always put each other first, not the kids, not the parents, siblings or friends. And as for one of your other posts that said sex wanes as you get older, I have news for you. We still enjoy each other at least once a week, sometimes 2 or 3 times a week.

I don't think you have any idea what real love is all about and until you do you shouldn't bring any kids into this world. Kids learn by example. Our kids saw us hugging, kissing, holding hands and snuggling. They now do the same with their wives, and I am sure their kids will do it someday with their wives and husbands. I don't think you should even be married if you can't give your wife the special kind of love that is only possible between husbands and wives.

Okay, rant over. I'll probably never post again, so bring on the 2 x 4's.

countrygal, I think you are right about the way you raised your kids. That is how my parents were/are. That's what I aspire to. DH's parents are great people, but to them marriage was something that was more practical, the kids came first, and alone time was optional. Needless to say DH and I have VERY different marriage lenses, and it's a real problem.

I say keep on posting.

I respectfully appreciate the post and the comments Coutrygal. I have to disagree though that kids could not be brought into our marriage and be raised quite successfully. I am very hopeful for children, I expect to be an excellent dad. Leading by example is a great notion, but not every person is exactly the same. Not ever relationship is exactly the same. My wife and I do hug and kiss and hold hands (though I have never been a big fan of that one). My parents on the other hand, I did not see them do those things very often, occassionally, but not often. I also know that they had very little SF in their marriage. My marriage looks like Disneyland in the SF department in comparison to when they were married. I understand why, but I do not believe it has significantly impacted my marriage in the same ways and in turn the potential lives of my potential children.

Congrats on your SF in your 60's, I can't even fathom it that often at that age. I don't see even wanting that to happen, even if I were 60 and with a 25 year old, that seems like a lot at that age, but I know, thats me and everyone has different needs.

Absolutely well said, gal! Thank you so much for sharing your story. I hope to give my child(ren) as beautiful a gift as you have given yours. My husbands parents sound much like you and your husband - to this day very much in love. And three of their 5 children have happy fulfilling marriages... The other two are confirmed bachelors- but I have hope for them yet! Lol.

Your story fills me with joy and hope.

And I think your advise to Tom spot on.

Congrats on your SF in your 60's, I can't even fathom it that often at that age. I don't see even wanting that to happen, even if I were 60 and with a 25 year old, that seems like a lot at that age, but I know, thats me and everyone has different needs.


That's because we are still in love with each other. You would think after all these years we would be sick of each other - we practically spend 24/7 with each other, working together for the last 30 years - but the funny thing is that if we do have to spend some time apart we miss each other terribly. It's almost like a part of yourself is missing.

I joined this forum to see if we can make our marriage better. Not everything was always roses, we used to have some terrible AOs (we're both hot headed). But the make up sex was always great. I've learned a lot reading here and the AOs are kept to a minimum now.

Thank you Vibrissa and Lurioosi. I grew up with parents that fought a lot, but they also showed a lot of affection to each other. So the touching and hugging came natural to me. My husband's family was rather cold and never showed any affection to him or each other. He missed out and that's why he can't get enough of it, and I'm just too happy to provide him with it.

They say that the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. I believe it. Honestly, I would rather have a passionate marriage where the passions sometimes flared than a very polite marriage with....nothing. As Shelby on Steele Magnolias said, "I'd rather have 30 minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special." I just happen to believe that if both parties have the desire and, yes, discipline, it's possible to have a lifetime of wonderful.

Not sure why the advice was spot on Vib, but I did say I respected what she said.
I also do not know why she says I don't know what "real" love is. I know what love is, I know that there are different types of love as well. I know what it feels like to love a family member unconditionally. I know what it feels like to love and care about a friend. I know what its like to love a family pet. I also know what it feels like to fall head over feet in love with someone as you get to know them. I know what it feels like for that love to be broken and shattered.
There are many types of love. We experience many types of love in our life. I know what love is.

But you don't know what it feels to have that love surround you every day of your life. You don't know what it feels like for that love to be a warm fire keeping the cold and loneliness out of your heart. For it to be a warm familiar blanket keeping you safe from harm. To wake up and know peace and surging joy as you see your sleeping spouse. To love fiercely and know you are loved that you are loved by someone who has gazed into the deepest darkest parts of your soul and cherished what they found there. You don't know that love and I fear that YOUR fear will keep you from ever knowing it.

Which is sad- because it's the best kind of love.

Vib- You are right about that, all of that which you said in that last post.
When I did experience passionate, heart racing, always want to be around them and know them completely love, I was broken. After that, I tried again but it didn't work out. Eventually I decided I didn't want to endure that again, so I told myself I would not search for that type of love.
Now in my mind I still search for it, but I survive without it.

Tom, you experienced New Relationship Energy, an infatuation, not love. Love is a verb, its caring for each other every day and doing YOUR BEST by one another. Not telling yourself you're doing ok because you're not as bad as someone else.

I'm with Vibrissa. Nothing on earth touches the love that you have when you have been with someone for years and know each other inside and out and know you can trust them with your every thought and secret, and you know without a doubt that they would do almost anything to make you happy. I thought a few years ago that it was inevitable that the romantic excited to be around someone feelings would die down over time, but it turns out that they only die down because people let them they don't have the tools to keep a relationship like that for life.

Back to the discussion about children, it is passionate love for one another that helps you through the trials of having children. They are adorable but they will put your relationship under strain you can't dream of right now. Without passionate love and actively working to create and sustain it this relationship that is plodding along right now will be in a nose dive after children.

I'll touch on older sex--Tom is very young, in his 20's, and as such a young man, he has no idea how he is going to feel at 40, 50, 60. He assumes he's going to feel old. Right, Tom?

You're going to be SO surprised!





Did you intentionally marry someone you don't love all that much JUST SO she wouldn't have the power to hurt you?

Yep. And Marriage Builders is about becoming an expert in your particular marriage, specifically becoming an expert in meeting your own wife's emotional needs.