But what you don't know is what it feels like to sustain that head over feet love for years and years and years and years.

This is what I find to be the biggest

This is an affair looking for a place to happen.

committed

In some ways that's actually not too bad a situation to be in.

You are married and can try this with your wife, and if it doesn't work out, you are no worse off than you were. You're already putting a few of the concepts here into practice and are likely to see some improvements from that; hopefully that will be to your liking, and if it works well you might want to consider trying more of them.

But do be aware some of these concepts don't work so well without the support of the others. And some are hard to get right the first time or two you try. (You're lucky to be on the forum where you can relate what you're doing and ask. I wasted six years trying some of these things WRONG, and it only took a few posts here before people could tell me what I was doing wrong, which made things somewhat better instantly and gave me the encouragement I needed to go on.)

Tom - I don't know you so I don't know for sure what kind of dad you will be or if you will be a good dad or not. However, I know with your attitude you will probably not be able to teach them some very important lessons:

That they are NOT the center of the universe.

How to be a good husband.

What to look for in a good husband.

Children are fundamentally selfish - they have to be. They need to ensure their needs are met. However, by placing your wife as your top priority you provide the balance. They learn that they are not at the center of the universe.

You may think that a bad thing - but I assure you it isn't. Ever meet one of those child-terrors who throws all out, knock down, drag out tantrums because they didn't get their push pop (and I'm talking normal, healthy kids here). They believe they are the center of the universe and completely melt down when the universe proves them wrong. And then they grow to adulthood, expecting the best to be handed to them, and when it isn't are unable to achieve it on their own.

By placing your wife first, they learn that everything isn't about them - and they're happy and ok with that! They realize they are part of a family, not that they are the center of the family. They learn they are part of society, not the center of a society that exists to provide them their every whim.

Their future relationships will be modeled on the relationship of you and your wife. Children are incredibly perceptive. They know, sense and feel things you would think they'd never see. Little boys pattern themselves after their father, and learn how to treat their future wife from what they see.

You are teaching them women are nothing more than potential baby carriers. You are teaching them that intimacy is not necessary.

You will teach your daughters what to look for in a husband. You will be teaching them to settle for second best - that they are not good enough for romance, passion and enduring love.

And I agree with Rosy (at least I think that's who said it) that children are a challenge. I don't think your current marriage will last the challenge of children. So you are currently setting them up to a torn, broken childhood because you are heading for divorce (or at best an empty, loveless home where they begin to WISH you divorced). The most common year for divorce after the first, is the first year the first child is born.

DD is only 7 months old and she has already thrown DH and I into a whirlwind. The lack of sleep, the stress and anxiety, the changes to personal time, the demands, the schedule, the added stuff you now have to worry about - it is almost overwhelming. If I didn't have my deep and abiding love for DH, if I didn't nourish it EVERY day, we would be at each others throats.

My MIL told me that the two things a couple will argue most about is money and childcare. You're already having money issues, childcare issues will just pile onto you're already big heap of issues to deal with.

You may be ok not telling your wife how you really feel about money, but I can assure you that you wont keep your mouth shut about kids, especially if you think their care more important than her. Without love and the ability to negotiate, you will have contention, anger, tension and frustration in the air daily as you two don't have the skills or love to negotiate differences in opinion over childcare. You think thats the best environment to raise a child in?

Do you know how terrifying it is for a child to witness their parents fighting?

You think if your clever enough to not fight in front of them the wont sense the anger, tension and resentment between the two of you?

You know who they're going to blame for all of that? Who they're going to blame for the fact that mommy and daddy don't love each other?

Themselves.

That is why countrygal said not to have children.

Your current marriage is setting them up for untold pain. Either they grow up with divorce and end up living a torn life (its own kind of hell, I can say from personal experience) or constantly wishing and dreaming their parents loved each other.

Children desperately want their parents to love each other. They see romantic movies and they want that to be their mommy and daddy. The love of their parents is the foundation for their world.

Aside from your love, the love for their mother is the BEST and MOST IMPORTANT thing you must give your children.

Period.

Until you are able to give them that, I agree with countrygal - you're not ready to have kids.

I agree also. I have kids. And an unhappy marriage. You do NOT want to be there. Until you are head over heels in love with your wife - no kids. If you want the kids more than you want to be head over heels in love with your current wife - then get another wife. Learn to love her. Then have the kids.

Do not have kids with someone you aren't in love with. It isn't fair to you, her or the kids.

Half of the time I feel old now, I almost never refer to myself as young.

And no I did not intentionally marry someone for that reason, I just didn't go out looking for someone for passionate reasons.

A positive comment for me. Thank You very much Markos, those seem to be a rare thing, I appreciate that.

That was a long one Vib, and I do have to agree with you on some of the points about raising children. Please do not talk to me though like I know nothing about children.
I do understand that the mother and father set the example for children. I also know that our marriage is not as bad as you make it out to be. You write like it is a loveless marriage and it is not. There is love involved, there is love shown.

I do have to disagree with one comment that children will blame themselves when the parents don't show love for each other. That comes from 100% experience, I never blamed myself, not once. So I know that all kids/people are different in that realm.
Also I do expect to teach my children that they are not the center of the universe, I know that many/not all kids believe that they are. I have met some people that think all kids believe that way, but I know for a fact that is not true. Of course I expect to teach them that, I don't want them to grow up and be just like me, I want them to be better than me. It will be my duty to make sure they grow up to be better and more successful people than me.

I know the joys, pains, trouble, work, love, care, energy, etc. that will be required when it comes to raising children. I am fully looking forward to it.
But please stop acting like I don't ever show love to my wife, because I do, in small ways everyday. I try to make the effort to show her love everyday, because I know she deserves that and needs that. I always have tried, there are times when it is not as often, but it always comes back.

I believe that before I ever met my wife, I wanted kids more than I wanted to be head over heels in love. And to me, for as many people out there that I see having kids who don't have that true sense of dedicatin and care to them, thats not completely a bad things. There are many people out there who have kids that probably never should have because they don't want to put in the time and love it takes towards the kids.

There is also disrespect, dishonesty and no true intimacy. I do not believe, based on your own words, that your marriage currently has the strength to withstand the changes children bring. Not with healthy normal children. It won't have a chance if, heaven forbid, you have to deal with illness or disorders. Those situations tear apart the BEST marriages.


I did - I know many children that do. It's a crap shoot. You cannot say your children wont experience this. I can't say they will. But I will say it is VERY likely. Are you willing to run that risk for your own selfish desire to have kids?



Actions speak louder than words. Your example will teach them much more than your words and hopes ever will. You cannot, now, model for them an intimate, passionate marriage. You could, though. Your example will go much farther than anything else you say.

You are responsible for providing your children with the foundation upon which they will build all their knowledge.


I am the oldest of 7 children. The youngest 4 are about 10 years younger than me. We didn't have our own rooms so I often shared with the baby.

DH is the youngest of 5 - the older ones all had kids before we even met. He was the caretaker for many of them while their parents worked.

Children were no mystery to us - we knew what we were getting into. Or so we thought.

We didn't - you may have an idea, but it falls far short of reality, I promise you.



Your own words here indicate that you are not in love with your wife and never have been. Your descriptions of interactions with her show disrespect,and condescension. You lie to her every day by doing things to get her to fall in love with you but not allowing her to do the same for you. You may be trying as best as you know how - and you may be loving and showing her loving acts of kindness, but it is all superficial. You refuse to let your wife in and reciprocate.

You don't know how to intimately and romantically love your wife. You're falling short and missing the mark.

But you could do better. You could change. You could learn how to REALLY love your wife. Not just by being nice to her, but by creating intimacy with her.

You really could do that! And then, you wont have to try so hard and fail so often, because it will become second nature, it will be like breathing.

Tom, you'd be surprised what some people don't know. Even if Vibrissa is just repeating things you already know, it may be helpful to someone else reading along but not posting. There are a lot of those, actually.

Despite all those points, I still think it's a real problem for your children that you are talking like you would put them first, over your wife. It may not make them emotional cripples or devastate them and there may never be a divorce, but it is still not good for your children for you to not make their mother number one priority in your life.

If you really want what's best for them, if you really do put them first ... then you've got to put her first.

I know Markos, as a teacher I see it all of the time what so many parents don't know about parenting. I see it everyday, it is sad. I see many who they don't even give the immpression they want to be parents. Others have absolutely no clue what they are doing. When the parents are asking teachers for advice on how to parent their kids, there is obviously something wrong. I have only known the kids for a few months, they have known them their whole life. Then there are the parents who obviously just don't care, or they care so much more about themselves than their children, that to me is sad. I look forward to being able to dedicate my time, energy, and love to my kids.

Markos and Vib- maybe I am having a hard time understanding what you mean by putting wife before kids?

When we get home from work, baby is changed, fed and put down to play on her own so DH and I can reconnect. Several times a month we leave her with a sitter so we can go out alone. After she's a little older we'll be taking her to stay with family for a few says at a time so we can have our own little vacation. We plan on having family vacations too.

When time is scheduled the 15 hour couple time is placed first and family tome is scheduled around that.

Our kids will be limited in ther extra curricular activities so we don't spend all our days driving them to lesson after practice after meeting.

If baby is fed, clean, and rested and DH wants to play a game with me, we're playing a game.

A co worker told me a story about going to a restaurant with her husband and toddler. He passed her a note on a napkin saying he wanted to take her out some time without the toddler. She was offended and shocked. How dare her husband want to go out without their son.

An extreme example of putting the kid first.

I see nothing wrong with what you posted there. You can't be baby 24/7, you would get worn out, you do need some relief, couple time and alone time, I do agree with that.

I agree that couples should be able to go out withour their kids. I have friends who wont go out and have fun with others because of the kids. You get a sitter and you go have fun. That is what sitters are for.

Tom, I'm basically responding to your words here:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2402350#Post2402350


What I am suggesting is that you should make your spouse the most important in the world to you, for the sake of your kids, if you value your kids.

If you care for their mother, giving her caring love of so much quality and quantity that she passes the threshold of romantic love, she is going to do a much better job of being their mother. And they are going to benefit from that.

That's just one reason.

You. It becomes a problem when meeting the wants of the children overrides basic care to the relationship. When meeting needs, UA time and honesty are sacrificed because your children NEED you.

It is also a matter of being a united front to you child. Not undermining your wife's feeling or beliefs on childrearing simply because you don't agree. If she feels summer camp isn't a good idea but you disagree, you don't team up with little Sally to make your wife the bad guy. Your wife's opinions are put before that of your children.