NP, sometimes it's the voice of MANY that is heard. Sometimes a reluctant BS needs to see that it is a majority that feels a certain way to know what is right, when they themselves are confused. This is a HARD step to take as a BS, and even harder when it is done as a personal recovery moment more than for marital recovery.

anna, I need to "3rd" this--no more twitter, FB, myspace, whatever. He is a deadly tumor that needs to be completely excised from your life.

I know this is hard--even without your years of emotional abuse. It is hard to look at this person you love and have built your life around and no longer recognize who they are. You question your own judgement in choosing that person to begin with. You question yourself as a spouse--if I had done this, or not done that, been more like this, etc. You fear you will never find another person who will love you. Better the devil you know than one you don't. You think of the years you have invested and you hate to see that go to waste. Could you make it for 30 more years like this?

I think many of us KNOW we deserve a true partner, but what we KNOW and what we FEEL do not always coincide, KWIM? We always think we can change that person if we just loved a little more, was more patient, etc--WRONG. And we all KNOW this mentally, yet for some dumb reason, most of us still try anyway. I think most understand that YOU can't change someone. THEY have to change themselves. Again, this idea is a also a mental quagmire because while we might KNOW something, it doesn't mean we always act accordingly. A dear friend I have been close to since HS is currently working on her master's in counseling. She learned that change almost always will only occur when a traumatic event has forced it (i.e.-divorce, health issues, accident, etc. In the case of MB principles, it would be like the Plan B letter slapping the WS back into reality). It makes complete sense to me.

Look at your marriage as if it were your friend's. What would you advise her to do? If you think you would tell her to get the hell out (and I think you would), why on earth then would you yourself stay? (I use this analogy because I am finding it helpful for myself). You need to RECOVER yourself and start to love yourself again.

In the end, you must decide, who is more worthy of your love--him or you? And lord help you if you say it's him.

No, I can't live like this forever. I know that it is the fear that's paralyzing me, and that I can't let it drive decisions. I know that I can't get security from a liar.

But dang, the fear is terrible. I woke up feeling sick to my stomach this morning...

Yeah, I can't see anything in my childhood either that would lead me to falling for an abusive partner. My H abuses me with neglect...he is withdrawn and unemotional, making jokes and small talk.

I am in personal recovery, been going to COSA meetings, and they are helpful.

The worst part of dealing with my relationship and recovery is realizing what part I have played in all this...not to blame me...but there is a reason I stay. There is something I get out of it.

For me, I realize that I am so craving love I would accept it from ANYONE. And the chaos of my M enables me to keep the focus off my own internal thoughts. This was and is a very tough pill to swallow, that although I am not responsible for my H's neglect and attitude towards me, I am signed on...everyday I stay it is like telling him "OK, abuse me some more, I am here to take it..."

I have had to start on a journey of soul searching and finding out about me. By having the chaos and anger in my life has kept the focus off of me and my wants and needs. I don't have to look at my part in this.

It is only through removing myself from the situation, not allowing myself to take responsibility for his actions, but by taking responsibility for myself I have begun to understand my own feelings and motives. When you are caught in the crisis and survival you don't have time to think of yourself...

Consider a recovery program. IC is great, but meetings help in between times, to have people to reach out to, people who have been there before, and to begin a healthier lifestyle.

I had plenty to point to in my childhood to explain choosing an abusive man.

None of that matters.


What matters is leaving him. Freeing yourself.


What matters is HOW to get past the fear.


Your fears include wondering how you will make it without him, but I am willing to be you have fears...........

about what HE will do without YOU.

You are worried about HIM, aren't you?


He is a big boy. He can handle this, and he will get over it. You do not need to prop him up. He will survive the blow to his ego.

In fact, this episode in his life could teach hime something. I say "could" - because that is the correct word. Chances are, it WON'T. This man is highly unlikely to make any changes, because he is staunchly opposed to believing he is wrong in anything.

You cannot change him, you cannot protect him, and your presence in his life does nothing to help him or prevent his eventual implosion.


Your fears for him - and your presence in his life - do not protect him from ANYTHING.


The fact is that your presence in his life, and his presence in yours, is toxic

to you

and you must shake loose your fears for him, of him, and of the future


for the sake of yourself and your future.



It is the only logical and safe thing for you to do. While this all seems easy for me to say


I have done it.


I do know how hard this is.


I have done it.

Fear and all.


Fear and all.



What I found was


I was amazingly strong


as soon as I walked away


and rid myself of the toxin.




SB

Actually, I am not worried about him at all. I am not sure I care how this affects him, at this point.

I am worried about me--not about whether I can survive without him, because I know that I can, but about whether I will ever have kids or remarry (or, if I remarry, whether it will really be much better). I am afraid of being lonely. But I already am, I guess, and I never will be less lonely until I get past this.

I am looking at lawyers online right now. But still feeling kind of queasy.

Your fears are no different then anybody else leaving a marriage. Nobody wants to be alone.

However, ask yourself, do you want this man to be the father of your children? Is he a 'safe' father? How will you feel when he starts to abuse and control your children? Because you can bet that he will. He is not husband or father material.

If you want a happy life and children then get the divorce done as quickly as you can so you can move on and find that happiness with somebody else! It's out there! He's out there!! The only thing keeping you from obtaining it is your fear that it isn't out there. But, believe me, it is and it's waiting for you..... You just have to have the courage to chase after it!

Question: he keeps threatening to take me off of his health insurance. Is it possible for him to just drop me? Or does he need to have proof of divorce and/or that I have obtained other insurance?

Sounds like you need to get to a lawyer ASAP and work out what he can and can't do right now until the D is final...

I suppose he could DO anything he wanted, he could tell anyone anything and probably will. He will drag a D out as long as he can because he knows by keeping the chaos going he's got an active participant in his game.

What are your options for healthcare? Talk with a lawyer about all the things he has threatened and they can make sure all the bases are covered in an interim separation/divorce decree...

He will continue to threaten. Do you have an IM in place? Do you have someone who will filter out all the anger and nonsense?

May I suggest you look at the book "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin DeBecker?

Great book and a very good suggestion.

Now he's calling me and leaving me messages about how he doesn't want to get divorced, how he wants to work it out, etc. He said that we can go to lawyers if I want--we agreed to do mediation, which costs only $1500 total and takes only two months, instead of court, which will take a year--or the other "option" is that if I apologize, then we can discuss my concerns separately, afterward, and he's willing to address them.

I know that according to MB advice I shouldn't be taking his call at all. But I want to do mediation instead of litigation divorce because it's supposed to be cheaper and faster, so I think I have to talk to him. If it's Plan D instead of Plan B, does it really matter?

When I talked to him, I told him that I won't be treated this way anymore and that I am not going to be under his thumb. That when he was telling me I needed to "convince" him to stay married to me, he was unconvincing me. That he was more concerned about winning the battle than he was with the "war" to stay in love. That all he had done was prove he hadn't changed at all since January, and that telling me I had to "convince" him or apologize the "right" way was was not any different than telling me I needed to beg him, and that I was never going to do that. That his insistence on my apologizing first was just more control and his obsession with being "right" and my being "wrong." That I wasn't going to take his "option" and was going to make the appointment with a lawyer.

I know there are different options for divorce... mediation, collaborative divorce, and litigated divorce. Which ones have you guys done? What did you think of them?

I am thinking I want to do mediation or collaborative and stay out of court. I just want to be done quickly and inexpensively, with the least amount of stress possible. (I mean, I know it's divorce and therefore stressful. I just want to minimize it.)

I decided to make the appointment with the lawyer by myself, so I could look at the different options alone and decide myself.

Jesus, I'm afraid of being alone and never having kids. I'm not afraid of being raped or beaten. What am I supposed to get out of this book?

Now that's a line for stand up comedy - a bit of humor to spice up the pain.

You need to read that and go "really?" "Seriously?"

You're very young. You might feel a biological clock ticking but think woman think! Surely there's a more qualified father out there for your babies!

Work on your man picker and your standards of what you'll tolerate!

I had to read that at least three times before I saw what was funny about it... just goes to show where my head is. Thanks!

I hear you on this one, anna. My H and I are the the exact opposite in your basic scenario--he is 30 and I am going to be 37 in 3 months. We have been together almost 9 yrs and today is our 7th wedding anniversary. No kids--I am terrified I will never have any now, but you know what, so be it then. I am not gonna worry about that right now.

You are 30--you still have plenty of time to find the right husband and father for you and your future children. Do you have TONS of time, no. I mean, let's be honest, neither of us are in our 20's anymore, but don't let this fear cripple you.

I don't mind being alone, but at the same time, I get lonely. Does that make any sense? My preference is to have a man to share my life with, but I don't NEED a man.

You have been with your H for so long, and you were so young when you got together, I think you may have forgotten who are you at this point. After my first divorce, I was heartbroken for 6 months. It is strange, but one day I just woke up and the pain was no longer there. I realized that XH leaving me was the best thing that could have happened to me. He and I were not meant for each other and I spent the next couple of years really finding out who I was as an individual.

I think the steps you are taking with finding a lawyer is a good sign that you are learning your own strength and independence again. Hold fast to that strength and let it conintue to guide you to a better you.

Anna and Invincible, I was a late bloomer and I was a Big Beautiful Woman. When I was 38, I met the most amazing man. We fell in love and we have a beautiful little girl. Don't give up.

You might wonder why I am here. I am here to improve my marriage. We have been togather for 15 years and things are a little stale and we are taking each other for granted.

Anna do you want to make a plan B? Either Plan B or D do not tolerate his emotional abuse.

I got this e-mail from him tonight. I have not replied. What do you all think?

"Hey,

I just wanted to tell you that no matter what happens, I still love you. I *always* will. You are the person I care about most in my life. You are the reason I have for living. When we end things, I don't intend on actually moving on. My life would be over as I know it. When we see the lawyer, honestly I don't really care about what to settle. I only really wanted your things here until that happens because I feel like part of you is here.

I don't know what to say anymore. All I wanted was for you to love me back. All I wanted was for you to be affectionate and considerate towards me. That's all I really wanted.

I was looking forward to live together again.
I was looking forward to visiting Barcelona together.
I was looking forward to having children together.
I was looking forward to being a family and being the stereotypical happy family.
I was looking forward to moving to our new permanent home.

I realize that the past few days haven't been good for either of us. I'm sorry I got upset at you. I think we got lax with the book again - we haven't built it up as a habit, which we should have done. But still, I'm telling you that I'm sorry. I'm telling you that I'll be considerate towards your feelings and try to understand you, particularly during times of conflict. Even when we end things, I'll try the best I can.

I think you've made your decision already and maybe it's for the best. Maybe we have issues that can't be fixed. Still, I wanted to tell you that I'm sorry and that I'll always love you. Please let me know when the appointment will be.

Love, WH"

My response. I didn't send it, I know it's not an appropriate Plan B/D letter, I just wrote it because it made me feel better...

"Dear WH,

You say that I am the reason you have for living. What do you need me for? You have a relationship with porn and your computer, and apparently one that's more fulfilling than the one you have with me, because you were willing to sacrifice everything with me, lie to me, keep passwords and credit cards from me, in order to continue that "relationship." So go ahead. Take your laptop into the bathroom and make love to it. Have kids with it. Live the rest of your life with it. I mean, it doesn't have any feelings for you to worry about or any relationship you have to worry about maintaining. And you can control it completely.

All I wanted was someone who loved and respected me, and who was kind, faithful, and honest with me. I deserved them, because I was always loving, honest, and faithful to you, but I didn't get them. You tell me all you wanted was consideration and love? You had those things. You had them, but you didn't deserve them because you threw them away like trash when you had your affair with N------, when you lied to me for seven years, when you threatened over and over again to divorce me, and when you tried to control me and blame me for your behavior.

You're sorry you got upset? What does that even mean? You told me that my fears about your adultery and porn use were insulting and obsessive. No--they are reasonable and based on seven years of HARD experience. I would be an idiot not to have fears about that, especially when you flatly refuse to be open and honest with me. We can't have joint credit cards. I can't see what you're doing on the computer. I can't ask for any more passwords. I can't ask any questions about your affair or your porn use. "What's in the past is in the past," you say. WTF is that? I have no way of knowing what's in the past or not, because you are a liar and you refuse to provide me with the evidence. You say I am snooping. No. I am protecting myself. I am trying to understand whether what you tell me about our life and our marriage is reality or whether it's just more lies.

And what you don't say is this: My behavior is wrong and I repent from it. I am willing to be honest and open. I am willing to have the conversations you want to have, for as long as you want to have them, as many times as you want to have them, and I will not force you into silence. I will be humble because I am wrong. I am willing to address all your fears, because I know that they are reasonable and that I created them. I am sorry that I have traumatized you so much. I am sorry that I was so weak that I brought this crap into our lives. I am sorry that I betrayed you. I am a low-down, vile adulterer who doesn't deserve to be loved by you, but I will work tirelessly to become a person who does deserve it.

You say I should just "trust" you. But I did--for years--and look what it got me: a lying, perverted, abusive, adulterous a---ole. So, no, I'm not just going to "trust" you. You want trust? Then start by taking a lie detector test. And putting me on all your credit cards. And getting a complete evaluation by a neuropsychiatrist. And logging me in as the administrator on your computer, so I can install a keylogger, and so I can change the administrative password so that you can't turn it off. And giving me your laptop to hold onto, so that you can't use a computer unless you are at work or in my direct line of sight. And switching phones with me so that you have the Razr and I have the smart phone, so that I can see the records of everything you do, instead of it just being "data usage." And confessing to your parents and my parents who you really are and what you have done.

You say I am obsessive and just won't let go. Well, you're right, I'm not going to let it go. No one in their right mind or with any self-respect would let it go, and you're a fool for thinking that I should. Moreover, you have not shown that you have changed in anything but the most superficial ways.

The appointment with the lawyer is on Thursday. F--k you."

Okay. So. Someone with a cooler head than me, help me turn this into an appropriate response.