Hi Hold. Jut wanted to chew the fat a moment (as opposed to the tin foil ). I read your description of why your wife doesn't respect you. I've seen you write similar things in the past. I'm just kinda struck by how it seems like...well, like you're trying to justify her behavior, on her behalf. Does that make any sense?

Your own description makes her sound like a first-rate gold digger. Please don't take that as an insult, as I don't mean it as one. I say that in the most clinical sense.

Perhaps your wife had these expectations/desires with no malicious intent; rather, they were simply what she sought in life, to no one else's detriment.

Still, it seems extreme. Or, at least, a little narcissistic.

But, most importantly, it seems she was not honest nor forthcoming with you before vows were said. Therefore, she sought/does seek to benefit at your detriment.

And, no doubt, you will respond that you did the same to her. And I can see how that is true.

So, what is my point? Eh, no real point, I suppose. Like I said, I'm just chewing the fat. It's just that I don't understand how/why you seem to say how your wife's behavior makes you miserable, yet, almost simultaneously, you're willing to justify her. I don't understand the disconnect, I reckon. But, I do have to respect your willingness to flog yourself and try to protect your wife. Then, again, sometimes I wonder if it's just your way of protecting your own emotions from...your own emotions. IOW, if you let yourself blame her for the things she really is responsible for, you would be so angry you'd wind up hating her. And, if that is true, I understand why you would do what you do. It's safer to turn the hurt and anger inward than outward. IOW, we hurt ourselves in an effort to keep from hurting someone else.

Me? I'm not strong enough to do that anymore. I just blame my W for 80% of the problems I have with our marriage. I'm too angry and hurt to keep turning it inward.

Trouble is, we teach people how to treat us, and I taught her for a long, long time to treat me in a way that I found hurtful. That is my 20%. It might be the more toxic 20%, though...

I suppose the other thing that runs through my mind is wondering how you can stand it. Then, I realize I experience some similar situations to yours, and have to ask myself the same question.

I guess the answer for me has historically been the fear of dealing with the immediate nightmare of ending the current situation in order to have peace in the future. I mean, why is it that if my marital house is uninhabitable, and I can't make the necessary repairs myself, I have to be the one to demolish it - but I have to stand in the basement and push the detonator handle? Seems pretty unfair.

I guess my question is, do you experience any of these same sensations?

Just for reference, you're still not doing as bad as you might believe. You have achieved far greater vocational success than I likely ever will, and have a wife who, though difficult and injured, is still willing to provide you with at least a physical release now and then (which is a long way from affection or intimacy, I know).

For comparison, I just went back to work after struggling for 10 years with a business that never paid me anything. So, now I've finally got a job doing long and stressful hours for mediocre money...but, they were the company that offered me a steady gig, ya know?

My W has similar FS aspirations and ambitions to yours, and has never had much admiration for my easy-going work ethic. But, she is employed and ambitious (and is close to a workaholic, IMO - but that's just my view of her work ethic).

We've been married for 15 years...in total celibacy.

Haven't slept together for about 7 years.

I got a kiss and a hug last year on our anniversary. None since. I long ago stopped initiating. The rejection just wasn't worth it. Besides, the neglect has made it an unattractive prospect, anyway.

You talk about being afraid of spending life alone in a dinky apartment playing video games if you divorced. I dunno, brother, but sometimes that sounds mighty inviting...

Sorry to just drop onto your thread like this and be such a downer. I suppose I'm just trying to say that you're not as alone as you may feel. And to ask if we share some similar emotional experiences.

(Yikes! That sounds a little too touchy-feely, donnit?. Eeeww...sorry.)

OK, OK, I'm just horning in on the group therapy. There, I admit it; are ya satisfied?

Retread:
What I do is very specialized and pretty much can only be done in big cities. Actually, of our firm's 7 offices, I live in the one with by far the lowest cost of living. Any place I go to will be a big city with higher costs.

COTF:
Yes, it sounds like we are living with similar wives. Not much fun. I feel for you. You mention hating her. We discussed this Friday night.

We were watching a movie: Victoria and Albert. They had sex on their wedding night, and Victoria says to Albert "now it cannot be undone". I turned to Mrs. Hold and said "wow, you are just like Queen Victoria. She asked in what way. I told her she said the same thing after we consummated our marriage. She claimed not to remember. Possible, since I am sure the statement was much more meaningful for me (in hindsight) than it was to her at the time or since.

She admitted she freaked out during our honeymoon. I told her the big problem was not the freak out during the honeymoon. It was the denial afterward. Especially during MC. I understand that admitting she freaked out would have affected the course of our MC. So I understood why she felt she had to deny it. But it basically destroyed any chance we had of reconciliation. Because everything we were discussing was either a lie or a half truth. Not surprising that we never made any progress.

She got quiet. She said "you must hate me". I asked her why she said that. She said "because what I did was so mean to you". I said "yes, it was."

We tried to have sex Saturday morning. I was unable to perform. It may be far too late to fix this.

HOLD, dont give up just when you two are making forward progress. Of course it will be different if she is starting to be honest. Of course things will seem different if you are being honest like you have not been in 12 years.

Of course things feel different!
They ARE different!
And they are getting better!
It will be an adjustment!


Ask your wife to work and pay that money back now!!!!

Thanks for the compassion, Hold. However, much like you, a lot of my sitch is my own doing. Like you, I have my own reasons for doing things as I have. Unfortunately, many of my reasons are actually excuses to avoid the inevitable severe level of conflict. Others are just based in fear. I fully realize that, unlike a trip to the dentist, this IS going to hurt a bit...

I should add to my previous post that my anger at my W really is about me as much as it is her. No one forced me to be a doormat for as long as I was. I tought her that I was OK with what she was doing. I gave her the wrong impression.

Then again, she did the same to me, but I don't control that. And I know her actions are without premeditated malace, usually w/o malace at all. It's just part of her inborn nature.

The strange thing is how we can still intereact quite pleasantly and even share a few laughs now and then - like any reasonably courteous room mates or co-workers. Maybe it's even a little better than that. In fact, I believe my W would say things are far better than what I'm saying.

At the end of the day, I have to wonder:
A) what were we thinking when we married our wives?
B) what were they thinking when they married us?

The simple answer goes back to your sig line, Hold: nobody saw it coming. Nobody ducked. We all got clobbered.

Now, how do we heal all the wounds?

So true, Bubbles, for anyone in these circumstances.

Unfortunately, part of that difference is how gut-wrenching the process can be (not that the status quo isn't gut-wrenching). I have to believe that it really shouldn't be this hard...

Only actions produce results, but taking those actions are often difficult and downright scary because of the risks that accompany them. Bubbles, I have to salute you for the courageous way you have handled the difficulties in your marriage and came through it for the better.

Yup. I've had similar experiences.

Shortly after our 1st anniversary, I inquired if things were alright between us, as the affection had dropped off a lot since getting married.

Her response: "Things are fine. Before we were married I wanted affection because I didn't know when I would see you next. Now, you're here all the time, so it's no big deal..."


Oh, really?


RE - the absence of SF in our relationship:

"I thought you understood - no kids, no sex."


It's true, we have always agreed that we didn't want to have kids; I DID NOT understand that to equal celibacy. But, apparently she didn't understand that I didn't understand...


My next thought may be a little TMI, so I apologize in advance, but it perhaps most accurately expresses our disconnect. When I asked her how she thought SF was supposed to work in our marriage, she said it was my job to pleasure her, and her job to let me.

Uh...wha...???


Anyway, my W doesn't recall any of these conversations, either. Like you said, Hold, her words meant much more to me than they did to her.

My biggest problem has always been how to find a starting point when my w's sensibilities and my own are so vastly removed from each other.


I understand your despair. Regrettably. For both of us.

Have you ever thought about venturing out on your own?

I do understand that specializing usually mean limited clientele, so you may need to expand your working field some.



Nonsense, most things with the way our transport systems are now, can be done virtually any were. Elictronic media goes everywere, UPS is everywere.

Yes, personal up front and close will require travel, but arent you already doing that?

Had a very nice anniversary. I went to religious services and Mrs. Hold went to exercise class, so no am togetherness. But we got home and had lunch and (thanks to D13 for the idea) we went to Six Flags and had a very nice day. Except for Mrs. Hold getting sun tan lotion in her eye. But we washed it out and she recovered nicely yesterday.

Monday morning we got our togetherness time. Then she dropped off D13 at an activity, I went to services and ran errands. Monday is WW day for Mrs. Hold. I surprised her and stopped by the class. She had gained weight and I knew she was unhappy so I poked my head in and told her I love her whether her week is up, down or sideways. She said after I left the woman next to her remarked what a good husband I am. In the afternoon, I bought groceries and cooked diner while Mrs. Hold picked up D13. Pleasant weekend.

Dred:
Actually, I don't do much travel. That is what I like about this position. High level intellectual stimulation, reasonable commute, small city location.

And what I meant about big cities is the networking. Not that I do much. But the partners who bring in business do. And they are all based in big cities so they can have lunch or dinner with bankers, accountants, etc who refer clients. If I want to make more money, I would have to bring in business. VERY few people in our field do that "virtually". In fact, I can only think of one person in the USA who does what we do and is not located in a large city.

Yes, that is an excuse and shows that I am not willing to "think outside the box" and make an effort to create the job I want. Which is true. I am not. I am too lazy for that. I want more money in a "it would be nice to buy a winning lottery ticket" kind of way. Not in a "go out and make it happen" kind of way.

There's nothing wrong with that, Hold. In fact, it may indicate a level of happiness in your job situation or at least satisfaction regardless of Mrs. Hold's desires.

A couple of conversations over the weekend confirmed that I am not misreading Mrs. Hold. For those of you who think I misrepresent her thoughts and feelings, listen up.

Saturday night we dropped D13 at a party. We saw some adults we knew who had been invited to the party. We were not. Mrs. Hold expressed disappointment that we were not invited. I validated that it feels bad not to be invited. I then pointed out that we don't socialize much, and you can't expect to be invited places if you don't socialize much. Mrs. Hold, S15 and I had a long conversation over dinner about socializing and the opportunities it provides to "expand one's circle".

In the end, Mrs. Hold admitted that she would like to socialize more, but she is embarrassed by our house. She thinks people in town (including the ladies at the gym) would think less of us if they saw how small and old and unfashionable our houise is. S15 pointed out that at least one of the couples invited to the party has a house that is even more run down than ours. Mrs. Hold said she didn't care. She thinks many of her friends imagine we are rich since her husband is a well-educated lawyer at a well-known firm, and she does not want them to learn the truth. So she is not comfortable expanding her social circle.

S15 and I confirmed she was correct. Some people would think less of us. So we wouldn't be friends with those people. But others wouldn't care and it would enrich our lives to spend time with them. She said she doesn't want anyone who doesn't know to find out because the women at the gym gossip and once one of them discovered we were not rich she would tell the others and Mrs. Hold's status at the gym would plummet.

So I guess we won't be socializing much in the future.

Yesterday, we visited my sister and nephew. When the kids went out to play, we were discussing our kids (not hers, her son is younger) being teenagers and Mrs. Hold being worried about them doing drugs. We had a nice conversation about the risks and about our kids and that you have to remain on the lookout but you can drive yourself nuts worrying about bad things that might happen.

Mrs. Hold said she worries because "I have an addicitive personality and anything that feels good and I enjoy I can't get enough of. That is how I gained weight, because I could not resist food".

Later we took the kids out to get ice cream cones. Mrs. Hold and I hung back a little. She said "it hurt you to hear what I said, didn't it." I agreed it did. Because it is obvious she doesn't find it difficult to resist me, so it obviously can't feel good. She agreed. It doesn't.

When we got home and the kids were settled elsewhere, we resumed the conversation. I asked her why she lied to the counsellors and therapists about our sex life. At first she claimed it wasn't a lie, she simply told them that she felt safer and less threatened by me than by other guys, and the MCs and therapists assumed that meant the sex was good. I told her she knows what she said was misleading. She admitted it was. I asked her how she could waste all that time and all that money if she had no intention of actually working on our marriage. She said "if we discussed those topics truthfully, the MCs might have drawn the conclusion that we were incompatible, and I (Mrs. Hold) might have agreed with them, and I didn't want anyone putting that on the table, so I refused to go in that direction." She said that if she decided we were incompatible, she might have felt obliged to leave me. So she refused to allow herself to admit the truth to herself, much less the MCs. She said "it was denial, just denial".

I thanked her for finally being honest with me. She said she enjoys our marriage. It is not perfect and it involves disappointments. But it works for her and she wants it to continue. But she is not interested in working on the sex part.

So we know where we stand. It is pretty much where I thought we were. And now she has confirmed that she truly does feel what I have consistently reported were her likely thoughts and feelings.

I don't feel as bad as I expected. I always suspected this is how she feels. And how she behaved during MC. So it is not shocking to learn I was correct. It hurts. But it is not shocking.

I think the ball is now in my court to be more open. To reassure her that I won't be leaving while the kids are living with us. So she can be truthful with me without fearing it would cause me to walk out the door. But also to say that "hiding the ball" won't keep her safe in the long run. Because I can't promise her I will stay after the kids leave.

How awful to live at the mercy of others approval of you. Whatever relationships you might have with people who would develop or not develop relationships with your and your children based on your material possessions would be shallow. Why would you want to cultivate relationships with people who would judge you based on what your house is or isn't?

This seems like the perfect time for you to speak openly and honestly with Mrs. Hold about what you want your future to look like. She has told you she doesn't want change and you feel you do. Maybe you can make plans together for what your futures might look like. This would put the future in a realistic light for Mrs. Hold and might give you something to strive for. You may even be able to end things amicably if you both work on plans for the future together.

Not sooo awful. Many people live like that. Me among them.

Yes, we should probably speak openly. I told Mrs. Hold on the phone today that we need to continue our conversation. She reacted negatively. Not unexpected.

Hopefully we can agree to stay together until the kids are grown. Last night I told he that a big part of why I stay is the kids, the house, etc. She said for her it is not. That she likes me and she likes our life. I told her that if she likes me being miserable, I can do without being liked. She said I would be miserable no matter how she behaved (or how anyone involved with me behaved) so she does not allow my unhappiness to affect her mood, her decisions, or her behavior. Good to know.

I remain convinced that we are simply incompatible, in that neither of us is willing to change sufficiently for our spouse to be content. She said as much this morning. That she wants to be invited to parties and events. But she wants to stay in her comfort zone of not socializing. I told her she would have to move out of her comfort zone to receive more invitations. She agreed but said she is not willing to change. Last night she said she was never willing to have an honest discussion of where each of us would draw the line at what we could offer / accept, because then it would be clear that neither of us can offer (me money, her sex) enough to satisfy the other person. So if we were open and honest, one or both of us would choose to leave. I think she is correct. In the end we are both Renters, not Buyers.

Quick chat with Mrs. Hold. She said she was not upset with me this weekend, she was upset with not being invited to the party. I validated that it stinks to be excluded. And that she has understandable PTSD from being excluded. Since her family moved so many times when she was a child so she was always the new kid and the outsider.

However, I disagreed that it has nothing to do with me. She is being excluded in part because we don't socialize much. And we don't socialize much in part because Mrs. Hold is embarrassed by my lack of career success. If I were more successful and made more money and we lived in a fancier house then we would socialize more. So in part this is about her disappointment in me.

At that point S15 came home and she got off the phone to debrief him about his day.

HOLD, I am glad you and the wife are finally trying to be honest with each other after all these years. That honesty alone will free you to some extent. When things are unsaid, and there are lots of lies, that is when you really feel miserable stuck in a marriage with that kind of stress.

However, there are so many options for her if she were willing to change. She wants to be invited to parties, she could:

1. Get a job and raise the family income
2. Support you in every way (emotionally also) so you will want to make more money
3. Change so that she does not care what people think
4. Go to events to "be with the other people" instead of going to events hoping to "impress other people". One is self centered and one is other centered.
5. Learn to care for others rather than just herself.
6. Realize that most people could care less who you are or what you have.
7. Learn to be a nicer more caring person.
8. Learn to socialize in a new and different way
9. Get over the idea that money can buy friends
10. Form some moral and ethical rules around the reasons for socializing
11. Figure out her reasons for going to parties and change those reasons.

There is so much more. She could learn new ways of being if she wants to do so. It is all up to her if she wants to or not.

How would she feel about attending some "low brow" parties just for an experiment or does she tend to "look down" on most people?

Hold,

I like you guys continuing this conversation. It's intimate. Oops.



Could you please use "I" statements when talking to your DW, though?

[quote]However, I disagreed that it has nothing to do with me. She is being excluded in part because we don't socialize much. And we don't socialize much in part because Mrs. Hold is embarrassed by my lack of career success. If I were more successful and made more money and we lived in a fancier house then we would socialize more. So in part this is about her disappointment in me./quote]

"She is being excluded in part because she doesn't choose to socialize much (you do the Men's Group at church). I don't choose to urge her to socialize much in part because I believe DW is embarrassed by my lack of career success. If I were more successful and made more money and we lived in a fancier house, I believe we would socialize more. So in part this is about her disappointment in me."

And yet she wouldn't. She has folks on levels, eschelon's...the higher hers, the more rungs up to look down on her. It's a pattern, a personal problem she has and she shared that with you.

Don't try to take even a part of it from her. Be MORE honest...

"I fear you blame me for not being invited. I hear you telling me I'm the problem, that you're really embarrassed of me not impressing those you would like to be friends with."

You can take in shame that isn't yours. She is afraid of being looked down on. Usually means, she's looking down on others. A signal. Not a condemnation.

Don't add to her looking down on for you.

And as for sex...again, your responsibility is to say, "I believe we make ourselves incompatible with our partners. Your issue with sex makes us as incompatible as me not addressing your previous financial infidelity does. We both take do this, and I think we agree to keep doing it (withholding and resenting) knowing it hurts our compatibility. I think we need to help each other to stop hurting our marriage to make it another six years together."

Did you really think you were doubted about what you heard your DW saying previously? Or were you conveying confirmation in yourself, that she really does have issues with people...and that includes you looking down on her and her looking down on you. Again, a commonality, not incompatibility.

Did it hurt inside of you to hear how she views your family home, thinks through the eyes of others? I think you guys probably have a really nice home...is it more, less or about the same you envisioned having someday when you were a teenager?

Are you embarrassed by your DW for the financial infidelity? Do you tell her that you're embarrassed by her?

I'm asking because if you had all of the money which she spent, instead of as marital debt, would she be disappointed?

Financial success is both...career success and controlled spending. You taking it all on as you...well, that's just greedy, isn't it?

LA

I do try to use I statements when speaking with her. I realize the you statements are DJs. And she is cingulate and goes berzerk when I "tell her what is inside her head".

Still, as she admits, she often retreats into denial. Makes the locutions complex sometimes. She says how she feels. It rings false. I ask if she is being honest. She repeats the possibly false statement. I express my skepticism. I tell her I fear she is in denial. Many times she accuses me (correctly) of committing a DJ. But more often lately she admits she is in denial. And she admits to lying. I thank her for her honesty. Even when what she expressed is painful to hear.

I have thanked her for admitting to the freak out. I have thanked her for admitting she feels nothing during sex. I have thanked her for admitting she repeatedly lied to the MCs and therapists over the years. I have thanked her for admitting that she is embarrassed by our house. I have thanked her for admitting she is disappointed in my lack of career success. I have made it as safe as I can for her to admit unpleasant truths. I must be doing a decent job, since she has felt comfortable issuing so many of them lately.

Does not cause me to feel closer to her. Does not motivate me to work on the things she wants from me. To meet her ENs. Just confirms my fear that we will never be happy while we remain married. I am going to put the issue of divorce squarely on the table. That I don't want it now. But I see it happening when the kids leave. Unless we change course. Which I don't see either of us choosing to do.


Not much. I knew she felt that way. We have discussed her disdain for our house many times.

My house is less than I expected as a teenager. Less than my parents' house. Much less than I expected after law school. And one of the smallest and least updated houses in our town. I am not being eeyore when I say I am disappointed in myself and our house. I am not comparing myself to some other person's achievements or expectations. I have fallen short of mine.


I am much more embarrassed by my career failure than by her overspending.

I am angry at her for the financial infidelity. I have in no way forgiven her. I hold that anger close to my heart. I feed it. Perhaps I could forgive her if it stopped.


Yes, she would be disappointed even if she had not overspent. She overspent a large amount of money. But far less than the difference between what I make and what we expected I would be making. Maybe she overspent by $200 K or $300 k over the past dozen years. We expected I would be making that much more PER YEAR. So she overspent $300 k. And I underearned by over $1 million over the same period. Plenty of blame to go around on both sides.


I would be happier with her as a life partner if she had not overspent. But I would still view myself as a failure at my career. I would not respect myself. And she would not find me attractive. Her controlling her spending would NOT resolve our FS issues. Or our SF issues. And yes, the two issues are unavoidably intertwined.

It is true that we are not a team. And that she plays a part in that. She is no more of a team layer than I am. Perhaps less. Who is to say? But there is room for me to view myself as a FS failure apart from the arguably unreasonable nature of her expectations or the extent to which her behavior has contributed to our problems.

If we balanced our books today. And she helped to pay off the remaining debt. I don't think either of us would be satisfied with our financial position.

You two are a team.

A team that together, is going toward disaster.

You make money, she wants more money, then... she overspends.
She wants more money yet she refuses to work
You want sex, she does not like sex with you
Both of you are in a rut, she more than you.
You are gradually getting closer to the truths in your marriage.

The truth that we should have gotten divorced long ago?

I tried to engage Mrs. Hold last night. I asked her to sit and talk while I ate dinner. She did. We talked about one of the possible trips we might take next year. Logistics for the trip to Maine this summer. Then she raised an issue that surprised and pleased me. She is thinking about going back to school to get a paralegal certificate. She is very organized and I think she would make a great paralegal. Eventually S15 got home from a friend's and we all sat together while he ate.

Then Mrs. Hold and I went into our room to watch The Bachelorette. I tried to talk to her. She was distant. When they got to showing one of the guys, she kept saying "I would never pick him. He is too needy. Too weak." I said "well, you might not pick him now, but you might have 20 years ago. You have learned alot about love and relationships since then." She said something like "you got that right".

Usually she is open to holding hands while we watch tv, but last night she pulled her hand away. Eventually I got tired of the verbal and physical rejection and left the room.

So a frosty night but her discussion of the paralegal idea gives me hope.

You didn't try to engage MrsHold last night, sir.

You invited and she accepted...and you guys engaged.



Power words...language power. Know what you do from what you didn't do...and there really is no try.

She didn't want your hand or to respond to your talk...no try. You spoke. She didn't respond in the way you wanted. What's your agreement about talking during a show? Just during commercials or anytime, or is it on a show-by-show basis?

Sounds like she wanted to exchange opinions about the show.

You felt rejected, felt the frost and distance. Again, you didn't use your words...pausing the show and saying, "MrsHold, I believe you're rejecting me physically and verbally right now...that you're frosty and distancing and I'm hurting. I'm going to remove myself until after your show is over."

Not what you wanted...not even the discussion you wanted...about SF...and yet you have said, astutely IMO, that the FS and the SF are intermingled, entwined. Okay...so you got half of that and you chose hope.

I think removing yourself was healthy...the way you did it, unhealthy.

Just like you asking her to sit and talk with you while you ate...and she did...and sharing ideas, plans and her stuff, your stuff. That's marriage. That's partnering.

Not all right or all wrong...just see where you react "old" and choose NEW (even if you're out the bedroom door when you realize the "old", go back and do "new").


I want to challenge your honesty on your statement. Do you think she has learned a lot about love and healthy relationships in the past 20 years? Or were you implying something, roundabout, rather than sharing honestly?

LA