Please read your original post again. Read the letter you wrote again. He IS "a lying, perverted, abusive, adulterous a---ole." What you are going through now is called a 'hoover.' He's pulling out all stops to suck you back in.

And as for starting a family? I know far too many women whose biggest regret is that they had children with a man like the one you are with. Because someday when you get finally fed up, even if it's for no other reason than to protect your children, because believe me he will turn his anger towards them, and then divorce from an abusive man with kids involved years from now? Custody? It's a nightmare. And then what happens when your children, who have learned by example, start abusing you too? Or abusing others? It happens, and it's so very hard.

Please consider reading here, maybe even copy your original post over?: http://www.our-place-online.net/

Whether you decide to stay "in" this relationship or not, there's a lot of women there who have been (or still are) where you are now and they do offer great support.

Did you have communications with your H that brought on this change of heart?

Please break this cycle. Go dark and stop letting yourself get sucked in to this dynamic. I am worried about you.

I went to a lawyer yesterday morning for the initial consult. She said I should get copies of records and etc. So I went over to the house and copied all the files on his laptop onto a remote hard drive. He is in data security, so he could tell from work that I had logged onto the network at the house. Apparently, he got really hopeful that this meant I would be waiting for him when he got home from work and we could talk.

I left around 4:30, since he gets home around 5. He called as soon as he got home: "You were here. What did you copy from my laptop, and where's the remote hard drive?" He eventually went on to say that he had been hoping I'd be there and we could talk. I said, "What is there to talk about? I'm not going to live like this anymore. I can't live with someone I can't trust, or someone who treats me the way you do."

It was a long conversation--five hours--but essentially, he said that he doesn't really want a divorce. I told him that he needed to be honest, and that he seemed to believe that there were "degrees" of honesty. That even though he was being more open since I left in January, he still wasn't being completely open. He said there was no point in talking about the past, and that he didn't think I was ever going to let things go, no matter how open he was. I said that his ongoing refusal to talk about it just continuously convinced me more that I needed to know, because people don't hide things unless there was something to hide.

He eventually told me--and I am taking this with enough salt to line a margarita--that he had met OW (a 19-year-old tarot card reader) in the summer of 2006 because she was the girlfriend of his friend A, a coworker from a company he worked at over 10 years ago. Talked to her on his blog site. Started IMing her. She made him "feel cared about" and said complimentary things to him. A was cheating on OW. He felt unfulfilled in our marriage, like we were just roommates and never talked (which we didn't, but he bit my head off if I interrupted his 6-7 hours nightly on the computer). He was unhappy with me, so he left me and flew out to NY to meet her. They went to a shopping area and wandered around. Talked. Hung out again the next day. He came back. They kept talking online, several nights a week. He claims that he was starting to miss me (but was not behaving like it), but thought it would be "better for me" if I found someone else and hated him. He flew out there a second time a month later. They hung out for a few hours. He knew it wasn't going to work out because they lived too far apart. Maybe she could've been his girlfriend if they lived closer, but not at this distance. So they just said goodbye. (This was Dec. 2006.) And he spent the rest of the weekend hanging out with his friend S instead. Then he came back and decided he wanted to get together with me. He'd been missing me the whole time. He claims: he never kissed her, never held her hand, never slept with her, etc. "It wasn't what you think."

Me: If it wasn't what I think, why did you delete your MySpace as soon as I tried to friend you?
Him: "Because I never used it."
Me: I don't believe that. You were friends with OW on MySpace. You deleted it because you didn't want me to see something.
Him: "I just wanted that part of my life to be over and gone."
Me: So then why did you delete your blog as soon as I asked you for the password to that? You were trying to delete the evidence there too.
Him: "I just wanted it to be over. It's like a diary. You don't need to see everything."
Me: I noticed on the credit card receipts a charge to rename a journal. What was that for?
Him: "I changed the name of the journal."
Me: What's your new name?
Him: "[URL]."
Me: You should put me on the friends list so I can see.
Him: "I can put you on the friends list, but all my posts are private now." (He adds me.)
Me: Then give me the password so I can see.
Him: "No. You don't need to see that."
Me: If you're willing to share those thoughts with strangers, you should be willing to share them with your wife.
Him: "You have a blog and you don't share that with me."
Me: You're right, I don't. If you want the password to it, you can have it right now. But I warn you that you won't like what you read. All the entries for the past four years are about how you made me miserable. And the difference between my blog and yours is that yours was the vehicle for your affair.
Him: "You just keep pushing and pushing. It never ends. It's never going to end. I'm putting my foot down here. I'm not giving you the password. I'm just going to delete it."
Me: If you delete it, you will be telling me that there's something to hide. I will be seriously offended by that.
Him: "I'm not giving you the password. I'm putting my foot down."
Me: And again, it's degrees of honesty with you--as if you think there's someplace between honest and not honest.
Him:"I just don't think this is going to work. Goodbye."
Me: Fine.
Him: "Let me know what you want to do."
Me: I have a lawyer.
Him: "Think about it and let me know tomorrow if I should get a lawyer."
Me: I'm not going to call you tomorrow.
Him: "Let me know tomorrow. Goodbye." And then he hung up on me.

I didn't call him today, as he wanted me to. He started texting me and calling me as soon as he got home from work. Here is what he texted me (or what he called/left voicemails about).

5:21 p.m.: Hi. What did you decide?
5:38 p.m.: Hello?
5:40 p.m.: (Calls my phone. Doesn't leave a message.)
5:42 p.m.: (Calls my phone. Doesn't leave a message.)
5:45 p.m.: (Calls my phone from a disguised number. Leaves a message that basically says, "Hi... I don't know why you're not answering my calls. I just want to talk about this for a few minutes. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. Call me when you get this.)
5:50 p.m.: (Calls my parents' house, where I am living. Doesn't leave a message.)
5:53 p.m.: Do you want to resolve this or not? Please let me know.
6:00 p.m.: (Calls my phone. Leaves a message that basically says, "Hi... I don't know why you're not answering my calls. I thought we had an okay conversation yesterday. Please call me as soon as you get this.")
6:10 p.m.: I'll come over [to your parents' house] if you don't want to talk over the phone. Would that be okay?
6:26 p.m.: I'm not going to stop trying to contact you until I talk to you. Please give me a call as soon as you can.
6:50 p.m.: Sigh. I'm sorry for everything I did. Everything. I was willing to do it your way. I don't know why you are doing this. It's not helping. Please call.
7:05 p.m.: I know you checked my voicemails [he must have logged online to see my minutes usage] -- why won't you call?
7:09 p.m.: This is probably doing more harm than good. Please call me.
8:40 p.m.: Do you want the blog password? I'm prepared to have a calm and civil conversation with you. I just need you to call, text, or anything. Anything.

Okay. I have not said anything in response or answered my phone. What do you think?

I call BULL CHIT. You already know what we all think. You need to end contact with him my dear. This is going to continue to be your life forever. It gets way more complicated with a child. Please listen to the other posters on here.

I agree with Vibrissa and Scotland. Plan D is what is best for your own emotional and physical safety. Yes, if he one day makes the changes needed and can become a better person, who knows what the future might hold? Maybe you and he can then reconnect. The problem is, anna, YOU have to want better for yourself. YOU have to remember all the evidence he has shown in the last 10 years that have led you to this point.

I know it's hard to think of saying goodbye, despite everything that has transpired. Making the decision to let go--and then actually LETTING GO--are so easy to say and so hard to put into practice. Believe me, just about EVERYONE in this forum can empathize with that.

Re-read your letter that you posted and ask yourself again if you really want this man as your husband.

If he would change, so that he wasn't controlling during conflict and so that he was transparent, I would want to be married to him. It seems like now is the right time to give him a Plan B letter that lays out what I want from him. Maybe he'll do it. Maybe he won't. Isn't it worth a shot?

If you are going to go into PLan B, make sure you are DARK. By that I mean NO CONTACT. You may even need to go to someone else's house for a few days, since your WH has threatened to come see you. You will expect him to try very hard to see you. Make sure he can't find you or contact you. Who would you use as an IM? It would be strictly for finances.

I am a little afraid for you to be absolutely honest. PLease make sure you check in every few hours so we know how it is going.

Let me make myself clear, I DO NOT THINK YOU SHOULD GO TO PLAN B. I THINK YOU SHOULD GO TO PLAN D. But, since you want to do PLan B, I will help you with that.

Thank you, Scotland. I will go dark and see what happens. He will not really come to my parents'; he is kind of afraid of my mother. But I know where I can stay, if necessary.

I saw the sample letter MelodyLane posted on another thread. Mine will be different because I know OW has been gone for 3.5 years. My main question is, what do I need to ask for? I want to be reasonable, but also make sure it is a thorough/effective set of requests.

Unconditional surrender - how ever you word it - that's what you need. He needs to surrender all of his old stuff/beliefs, his rights to secrets, his power-over treatment of you.

I really don't know how to craft a Plan B letter for this situation. Because he needs to be asking what he needs to do then doing it without reservation, not telling you what you need to do or accept.

****edit****

He kept calling and texting me all Friday night and Saturday morning. I didn't answer anything and turned off my phone eventually. Then he showed up at my parents' house around 2:00.

This is what he said:

Him: Why won't you answer any of my calls or messages?
Me: I don't want to. I'm tired of this. I'm done.
Him: I thought we had a good conversation on Thursday.
Me: That conversation ended with you refusing to give me the blog password, telling me that we needed a lawyer, and hanging up on me. That's not a good conversation.
Him: I'm sorry. What do you want?
Me: Nothing. I am tired of being abused by you. I want to go find someone who will just be kind and honest toward me. I wish you would leave.
Him: I'm sorry I treated you the way I did. I don't want to be this person. I will do anything you want. You can set the terms.
Me: I don't want anything.
Him: I will go to counseling and sign a post-nuptial agreement saying that if I abuse you again, you get everything.
Me: You don't want to go to counseling. And those agreements frequently aren't enforceable. And anyway, I'm going to be 31 soon. All I want to do now is find someone nice to have kids with and have them. You'd just abuse kids too, and then I'd have to worry about custody.
Him: I don't want to be like this. I don't like what I've been doing. I want things to be different.
Me: For how long? A week? A month? A year? Until we have kids? I know how this works. You promise me everything just to get me back, there's a honeymoon period, and then it starts all over again. That's the cycle of abuse. I'm not starting this cycle again.
Him: It won't start again. I don't want to be this person. I'll stay in counseling as long as it takes. If we had kids, you could have 100% custody. No visitation for me. I would put it in the agreement.
Me: That's probably not enforceable. Plus, I'd have to prove that you were emotionally abusing me, and that would be almost impossible to do. And then I'd be raising kids by myself. Why would I want to do that?
Him: What do you want? I'll do anything.
Me: You would give me the passwords to everything?
Him: Yes.
Me: You would let me install a keylogger on your computer, and let me change the administrative password so you couldn't uninstall it?
Him: You can install a keylogger, but I need the administrative password so I can do things on my computer.
Me: No, you can just ask me to type it in if you need to make any changes.
Him: Okay.
Me: You would take a lie detector test?
Him: What? You can get those? How?
Me: There are people you can hire. You would take one?
Him: Yes.
Me: You would start a program for emotional abusers?
Him: That or anger management.
Me: A program for abusers.
Him: Yes. I'll put it all in writing.
Me: You would have only joint credit cards?
Him: Yes. I want you to trust me again.
Me: I only trust what I can verify.
Him: You can verify everything.
Me: You're just going to start claiming that I'm demanding. You don't want to be this open and honest. You've been saying that for seven years. Why the sudden change.
Him: I just realized... I guess. I realized that I didn't want to be this person. I think it's because my mother was so smothering. [She is Korean, and very smothering.] I just got in the habit of hiding whatever I did from her, so I wouldn't have to deal with it. And then I did the same thing with you.
Me: [silent]
Him: So what do you think?

I told him I would think about it. What do you think? Does it sound sincere? Does it sound like "total surrender"? What else should I ask for?

Great job on standing your ground.

Next step is action. Keylogger installed, you have password, and lie-detector test. Since lie detector tests are always yes or no questions, think of three or four where you know you haven't gotten the truth, and word them in a yes-no format.

Then have him call a shelter and ask them for a recommended recovery program for abusers. Make him take the necessary actions. You talk with a shelter counselor about what you need to be seeing from him on a consistent basis to be safe. Do not move back or go back to what it was two weeks ago even. Have him create a plan with the shelter counselor. Those women have seen men manipulate before and could see through him a mile away if it's just for show. Trust a 3rd party to verify recovery.

Give this some time. 32 is not that much older than 31. You have time where a year from now you will have worked through your own issues as well so that you know whether or not he's become a keeper.

He has to SHOW you that he has changed...

Set up a lie detector visit

make an appointment with SH

Tell him HE has to go to the shelter for the abusers on his own

Install the key logger on his computer, get all passwords, to everything

I would NOT move back home yet! I would wait at least 6 months to see if he is really wanting to change, if you move too fast on this, then guarantee you will be back here on MB with a bruised eye and filing for a divorce.

Take your TIME! The longer you wait, the better chance you will see his TRUE intentions.

I am working on finding the best local program for him to enroll in. I will tell him to call, but I want to make sure it is the best one.

I know there are some lawyers in this forum. Do any of you know whether it is possible to get a post-nup that gives me everything (house, savings, retirement funds, etc.) in case he reverts to his old behavior? How enforceable is it, and how do I get the most iron-clad one? I called my lawyer, but she is out of town this week.

Anna,

I am super proud of you! Standing up for yourself like that is not easy, but you pulled it off like a pro.

Also, how do I find someplace that gives lie detector tests?

Anna, I'm not a lawyer but I've been in the legal field for over 25 years. I don't think a post-nup would be enforceable in this context and it would definitely depend on your state statutes. Check with your attorney for sure.

As far as "nothing happening" on his trips to see OW. You don't really believe that do you?

He is still playin' you big-time. Get out now honey. If you were my daughter, I would hog-tie you and take you out of town to get away from this man. My own daughter was involved with your H (not him, lol, but someone exactly like him). Know how it ended? After two kids? She woke up (literally) after being choked nearly to death, unconcious, and ran for her life with nothing but the clothes on her back. He was charged with aggravated assault with a deadly weapon (his hands). He and she had the same kinds of back and forth that you and your H are having now. It didn't get better, it only escalated. Thank God she hasn't spoken to him since that day.

These kind of men DO NOT change quickly, if ever. Please don't ruin your life.

Please listen to PM.

Also it's pretty clear that your H has what Dr Harley calls "Secret Second Life". THis type of person has a very hard time following PORH and POJA (scary, right?). One thing Dr H said to me about men who have this is that they can overcome it BUT they have to believe being completely open and honest is important.

So it's one thing if they have a hard time revealing everything about themselves to their spouse because that's what they are accustomed to. It's entirely another if they DON'T really think it's a change they need to make...

Which description of those two do you think matches your H?

I talked to my lawyer about a postnup--hard to say how enforceable it will be, but it could be if he has his own lawyer present and we get a court reporter there to record that there is no duress. I also looked up phone numbers for a counseling program. Talked to the director myself. Gave him the number, and told him he needs to find a lawyer for the postnup. Guess we'll see today if he calls.

I mentioned the keylogger again and he said he would do it if I insisted, but that he'd probably just not use that computer much anymore and that it would make him feel spied upon and resentful. Said he wanted to put a keylogger on mine too because that would make it mutual. I said no--you only put the ankle bracelet on the sex offender, you don't put it on the innocent citizen.

What do you think?

You know what we think. Doesn't sound like he's really going to do what you need. What, 2 days later and he's balking at what your requirements are? After he swore up and down to do whatever you needed?????????

And he's defensive (you better do it too, etc).

You're so young! You deserve so much more.

Sometimes things are hard to do, but need to be done.