Ditto on the encouragement!

Bless their hearts.

DWG and GM's version of Gift of the Magi.
DWG: "Hun I sold my lumber collection to buy you a ring".
GM: "I accidentally cut off my finger with this chain saw I got you."
DWG/GM: "ahhhhh romantic."

The reply I have in mind probably would not go over too well here but just think of all the things I might have liked for him to remove with a chain saw back then. His finger was not one of them. Now I am quite happy he did not.

Gutter mind warning!

It took me 26 years to get him to wear a wedding ring. I don't think I would live long enough for him to do that!

I don�t have a problem with ignorance. When I came here I was ignorant. I read back through my thread and roll my eyes and cringe a bit, but I don�t beat myself up too badly because I didn�t know, and what you don�t know, you don�t know.

I do have a problem with a willful refusal to learn, especially when that refusal is driven by arrogance. And I think people who go to an expert to help solve their problem and then ignore the advice given are idiots.

I�ve given solid legal advise to people who respond with 652 reasons why what I am telling them to do is either wrong or impossible because I just don�t understand their situation is special and, therefore, the law shouldn�t apply to them. And I think �fine, you came to me with your problem, I�m telling you how to solve it, you don�t want to follow my advice, OK by me. It�s not my problem, it�s yours, and I�m not the one who is going to suffer the consequences of not following my advice � you are. So go ahead and do what you had already decided to do before you came to me � no skin off my nose.�

So there you go. I have to admit I read some of the other WW threads and feel like chiming in with the above, but not to worry, I won�t.

You guys are incredibly patient -- my willful refusal to learn driven by arrogance is so, shall we say, unattractive.

Saddest,

You said

You have just provided another way of describing the "FOG". What you must know is that you are/were normal for where you were in all of this. That is why people were on you at the first. And that is why they are still with you. It takes awhile to clear the "fog".

I do believe that your statement is absolutely true of virtually all WS' that come here either still in their affair, or in the "fog" of withdrawal.


You're coming along just fine.

God Bless,

JL

Aren't you glad people here are more patient?

But she IS making a good point. We all own our decisions. We can't try to take ownership of others' decisions - it's enabling them and detrimental to our own wellbeing. Whether someone is willfully remaining ignorant, actively justifying their refusal of proven advice, or whathaveyou, the point is the same - you make your own honest effort to do what you can, but at the end of the day, their choices lie with them.

ALL that any of us ever hope for the other posters on here is that they "get" the MB concepts and apply them to their lives. If they are successful in recovering the marriage they came here to save, we are even MORE grateful. What do we have to lose? Nothing. BUT what we have to gain is knowing that we may have helped someone have a better life and in return helped make marriages better all over the world. THAT'S why I do it at least.

Glad to see that the fog is rolling out. Now, have you been reading some more? Do you have any more questions? Is there some way we can help you? Don't go quiet on us.

Horrid day, but I did NOT send the charming clever email to OM mentally drafted while mopping the floors worrying about the constant fighting between my H and my 15 year old son. Instead, I took a break and sat down and read BS threads for two hours.

I am formulating a big question, but I haven't read everything I can find on the subject first so won't post it yet.

The purpose of the post is to ask someone to go to lgrip's "Can I save this Marriage Alone" thread and tell him to try not to be alarmed by his WW's erratic moods IF you experts agree? Possibly she had a trigger moment for OM, or possibly her H said or did something that made her think "why am I here again?" or possibly she had a wave of guilt or possibly her jeans she bought when she lost all the weight from the stress of the A were a little tight this morning or possibly she really wants to go out to dinner with her H tonight but is scared to ask. The possibilities are limitless and not all bad.

And yes, I am enormously grateful for ALL of your patience. I would have thrown me out of my office -- then again, I learned pretty quick that those who didn't want to take my advice had no intention of paying for it.

Even more remarkable that all this wisdom is there for the taking. It's a remarkable group of people, and, one way or another, I will be one of you one day. I swing a mean 2x4 -- don't -- seriously DON'T mess with Texas women.

Scotland, if you figure out how to post in pink, let me know -- I've read some of your thread. Dear God woman -- you are made of steel aren't you?

You CAN post in pink. It just isn't so pretty to look at. AND I DON'T LIKE PINK.

I am most certainly NOT made of steel.

I am just a person who knows what I want and when I found this place, it was a saviour for me. I had been going through such ups and downs for a couple of years and until I found this place I felt lost. Funny thing is, almost 9 months after finding this place, I can't think the old way. MB seems like second nature. I still have much to learn but I am an MB sponge.

As far as what gets written to igrip, it is hard to say what you have said because there are so many different things it COULD be. That's why we tell BSs to look at actions and not words.

Glad to see that you are aware that you needed help and you are accepting it. THAT takes an even STRONGER person. You made that leap of faith and either way, this WILL turn out for the better.

Do you have a new list of EPs? Do you have any questions we could help answer for you? How are you doing in YOUR sitch? This is YOUR thread, let's get some of you kinks worked out. Have you read any of the threads on recovering? Sometimes, when I first entered Plan B, I felt like there was not enough movement on my thread. I didn't know where else to go. I looked to the recovering people's thread for hope. Maybe you could find the threads for some of the recovering/recovered people and see what they were advised.

I don't know how to help in the recovery part yet or how to help you get the thoughts of OM out of your head. I do know that I have seen where vets have advised WSs to replace the thoughts of OM with their DH. I hope you make it.

[quote=Scotland}
As far as what gets written to igrip, it is hard to say what you have said because there are so many different things it COULD be. That's why we tell BSs to look at actions and not words.
[/quote]

At least now I know that I don't know, so I didn't leap in and make things worse.


Horrid horrid horrid day.

From now on, when I say OM what I really mean is divorce. OM is not the sort of person I would even consider dating if I were single. When you are married, the world of possible AP�s is populated with people who think it is OK to screw around with a married person. This is, despite the current evidence to the contrary, not my value system.

I think I am in the wrong place here. I am certainly a WS, but at bottom I am a WAW. My pdoc felt/feels I haven�t done everything possible to save my M, and has been sending me back into the ring week after week for a year with different strategies to the point where I told him his insistence was starting to feel hostile to me.

I had an A right when I was about to file. I don�t know what that means. Maybe I�m gone from the M for good, or maybe it was my last ditch effort to get H�s attention. I do know that I wanted to get caught. I don�t know what that means either.

My H has this tone of voice that obviates the necessity of him ending the sentence with �you idiot.� I tried to help him set up a bed this morning and when he was telling me the importance of holding the headboard just so, I broke out in a cold sweat, literally, and told him that the bed was going to have to wait as continuing to help was bad for our M.

H enlists my S15 to help who has the exact same reaction, except he is 15 and he hasn�t read the MB site. S15 left the house on foot and returned 6 hours later. I was jealous.

H is TRYING SO HARD not to use that tone, and maybe he isn�t using it, but S15 and I and D21 are so reactive.

My mother had heart surgery all day. I received text messages on her progress which is fine. I can�t bring myself to call her. I hate her.

H and I had a late afternoon conversation about him and S15 and I told him (PORA) that the vision I had of life with him and S15 in the fall � my S19 who is a delight is going to college � with me cut off from all of my friends and family because of my A is not appealing, to put it mildly. H is so completely clueless about the impact of his disrespectful treatment of me and the kids -- to him that is so last week -- that I was actually speechless. Imagine that.

S19 wants us divorce. He is going to college and very protective of his brother S15 and doesn�t want to leave him in the toxic house that S19 lived in without S19�s support. S19 is about the coolest kid ever � I sent him a happy 4th of July text, and he replied �I hope you and father will take full advantage of all of the independence this great country has to offer.� On the one hand, S19 shouldn�t get an opinion about my M, but on the other hand S19 has earned the right to have an opinion.

I think maybe I should give up on the M. My S15 is starting high school at a new school with is academically very challenging and I worry that I�m not doing the right thing working on my M rather than ensuring that he has a tranquil home. New school, freshman, way more academic work. I�m scared I�m not prioritizing right.

So here is what has gone through my head all day:

�I can�t save my M alone.�

�Of course you can � alone is nothing new.�

�No, really, I can�t. He has to help. He has to get on board with the MB thing. Or some plan. He�s going to have to help.�

�Have you not LISTENED you stupid b****. You had an AFFAIR. You HAVE to do this on your own. You can�t expect ANYTHING from him.�

�I can�t do this on my own.�

�You have never once backed down from any challenge, ever. You aren�t thinking hard enough, clearly enough or out of the box enough. If you try hard enough, you can fix this.�

�I can�t do this on my own. And it isn�t just about me. It�s about my child too.�

�YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO EXPECT ONE THING FROM HIM.�

�I can�t do this on my own.�

My H is against coaching from Steve so I�m not pursuing it.

I think I am just done. I don�t see a path out. Scary.

I wish I could talk to a friend. Thank the ever-loving Lord for you all.

And H said this afternoon that he gets scared when I argue with my D21 that she and I will end up just like me and my mother where my D21 wants nothing to do with me, so he gets locked out of her life too.

Translation: I may be as horrible of a mother as my mother is.

PORA does lead to casualties. I can't absorb the horribleness of that. It's too much.

Dear Saddestwife,

First, I'm tired and can't recall what PORA means.

You are in a mess.

If you had come to this forum before you had an affair and complained about your marriage you would have received very different advice.

Maybe. Or Maybe not.

My own now XH told my best friend---with in weeks of D-day---that he was sorry he had given me ammunition. Not that he was sorry he has had an affair....but that he had given me an easy out. Huh? Seriously? That was his regret?

So I get all confused when I listen to you....I'm not skilled enough in MB ways to speak intelligently...although I haven't been told to stay off threads..:) But some of the things you say about your WH stiffen my spine....then again you did have an affair and you could be fogged out still---in fact probably are still a bit fogged.

How does one separate the affair from the conditions that led to the affair? Vets will tell you---your affair is on YOU. 100%. So that is one issue. The other issue is a marriage that was and is not what you want. One that makes you have crazy conversations in your head about your options. I had those same conversations many many times. He made the choice easy for me. He gave me a get out of jail free card. IF however, *I* had been the one to have the affair....and I must tell you I was totally vulnerable to that....I would have been tortured 100 times over what I am tortured now. I would have lost the moral high ground. That sucks.

So you lost the moral high ground. That doesn't mean you don't matter.

Stay here and listen and learn. You are valuable. Even with your sins, and weaknesses, and FOO issues...YOU are valuable.

SW,


This is to be expected. Infidelity is one of the hardest things to overcome. You will quite often hear it describe as a roller coaster here. The ups and downs can become maddening at times, but if you put them in the context of what they are and why they happen, they become easier to handle.

It's a step forward that you recognize this and not at all uncommon. It is what is referred to here as "affairing down." Like you said, the choices are limited in possible AP because that means a certain lack of ethics/character are needed to mess around with a M person in the first place. Point in case would be the OM in my situation. He was/is a total lowlife. Six months after basically dumping my DW he was already involved in another A over which he abandoned his BW and SS. Six months after that he was sentenced to 3-5 years for robbing a drugstore with a toy gun demanding pills and cash(great guy huh?).

I don't buy the WAW thing SW and I'll tell you why. I believe that you were at your wits end in dealing with the M, but you could have just as easily filed for D instead of having an A. Both would have the same affect you hoped to gain from you BH which was an effort on his part to repair the M. You choose an A because your aren't ready to give up yet where as filing for D is giving up.

You have a long history of issues to overcome SW. It's not going to happen overnight and you are going to have to be the one to take the lead for a while. Being reactionary is going to get you anywhere. Maybe the tone really wasn't about you or the way you were holding the headboard so much as it was at himself for taking so long to put the stupid headboard on. I think you handled the situation pretty well by removing yourself from losing further units in your love bank. Maybe you should have added that his tone was hurting you and that was why it was bad for M.



Sorry about you mom and how you feel about your relationship with her.

You speechless.....I'm shocked...totally SHOCKED I tell you!


WRONG!!! You are absolutely without a doubt prioritizing right. The best possible thing for your children is for their parents to remain together as a family. You can set the example and show them how they take responsibility for their mistakes in life.


The schizophrenic conversations you have with yourself can be a bear some times. I know full well what you are talking about here. I'm two 1/2 years from D-day and these are still an issue for me. My brain just doesn't stop. Tried AD's, mental blocks, shear anger over it and none of it has worked. Fortunately, I recognize that it's part of my OCD. Obsessive thinking has ALWAYS been a big problem for me and once the A came about my brain was off to the races. I've trained myself to ignore these conversations because some of the most damaging irrational conclusions come out of them.


Don't give up SW. You just got started. You need to continue to learn the MB principles and implement them from your side of the fence REGARDLESS of what your BH says or does. You do it without expectation because you are choosing to change your life for the better from this point forward. Get HSHN and LB and read them both. Make them part of your everyday life and give you BH time. Maybe when he sees the changes in your attitude and the commitment you've made he will get on board too. You can do this SW......

Want2Stay

SW, I don't have much time, gotta jet off to work, but I wanted to say a couple of things to you first. I too don't believe that you are a WAW. WHY? Because you are HERE. You keep coming back to a site called Marriage Builders and you keep learning and trying. You are NOT going to change overnight. When/if your H decides to get "on board" he won't change overnight either.

You can still do the phone coaching by yourself. I have read a lot of people's threads of people who have made that call and I have NEVER seen anyone regret it. Money well spent. Steve can help YOU devise a plan.

The little "discussion" you had in your head reminded me of the Giver and the Taker. We all have BOTH in us and you see how yours were battling? Your Taker is saying, "Get outta this marriage NOW.' Your Giver is saying, "But you have done WRONG. You have no right to walk away." It's okay. You are dealing with EMOTIONS here and you have already stated time and time again that you aren't so great with this sort of stuff. Work through the process, don't go around it.

You are still going to be foggy for a while. Some people experience foggy moments for years. Your fog has just started to roll out so my advise is to keep working so it will keep clearing.

Was there issues in your marriage pre-A? Of COURSE. Your DH was responsible for 50% of that and you the other 50%. That means that BOTH of you have to fix who you were/are to make a better marriage.

I think you should really give Steve a call. He could really help you. Get that little extra push you need.

I agree with you...but I don't think she was ever serious about calling Steve from the start. The excuses ranged from having a phone phobia to refusing to work with someone who took notes to the scheduling office's email being in her spam.

SW, you have already been told that you don't need your H to be onboard to talk to Steve. I thought you acknowledged that and said you would be doing the call on your own??

So you are saying you are willing to go to Plan D without even trying one session with the Harleys? Really? I am wondering how serious were you about saving the M to begin with...

The two times I initiated coaching my H was not fully onboard. The last time I told him I would be calling because our M was in trouble and if he didn't want to be involved, I would have them split the session and save his half for later. Both times my LB$$ was seriously in the red due to H's lovebusters involving dishonesty and AOs and both times I figured if this doesn't work, then I will start looking at Plan B. But that way I would know at least I did everything possible first. In both instances, the coaching helped tremendously!!

I don't know how much more we can hammer the message home ----> it is going to take time and you need the Harleys.