Thanks for the posts so far.

I definitely agree that I acted out of selfishness, being overly focused on my immediate wants/needs. There is no excuse for having an affair, I was not a victim. Yes, our relationship suffered from action and inaction on both sides, but I'm the one who gave up on it getting better and had an affair. I screwed up big time. I know. I'm not trying to dodge my culpability.

But now what?

I'm thinking of giving her a copy of His Needs Her Needs, but I'm afraid she'll perceive this as hostile. I really do want a marraige with her that works like the book. Neither of us want to live like we were, but I don't think she has any hope of anything better. I am definitely willing to do ANYTHING to salvage our relationship, but I feel paralyzed by anxiety and ignorance.

Again, it has been 2 months since I moved out. She hasn't done any therapy and won't consider marriage counselling with me. I'm afraid she'll just get angrier and angrier, and eventually she'll get used to not having me in her life.

She is a mental health professional, but has always been averse to counselling either alone or with me. She says it is for professional reasons, but I think she's afraid of her emotions. Her defense mechanism throughout the marriage has been to simply shut down. She puts up an inpenitrable wall. I don't want to push her farther away, but I don't know how to facilitate communication.


Relative to the nannies, she hired both of them. Both nannies told me that it was wierd that my wife couldn't let go enough for the nannies to do their jobs. They are both excellent, and the children love them both. Unfortuantely, my wife let her entire life dissolve for the sake of the children. No hobbies, no interestes, no time for anything but the day-to-day grind of getting 3 toddlers through their day.

HNHN recommends 15 hrs per week of undivided attention. We spent less than 2 hrs/week actually talking without kids and distractions. I wanted more, she never had time.

So, should I give her the book???

scubaman,
I got a chuckle out of "What's that smell?" We appreciate more than you do why your wife is reacting the way she is. You want her to change. That's why you want to buy His Needs, Her Needs so she can learn to meet your needs.

You are in the unique position of being the father of her children, so you have an advantage over any other male in the universe. You blew it with her, and she appears to have no interest whatsoever in reconciling. OK. Accept that. Try to meet her needs as you can. Focus on making sure she is taken care of financially and your children are cared for, especially that unborn child. It doesn't count if she can coerce financial support from you. How about offering to give her a chunk of money so that she doesn't have to deal with divorce while pregnant?

Focus on changing your behavior to meet her needs.

Those kids are toddlers. You'll be in her life for years to come, whether or not you reconcile. You'll have lots of opportunities to show a change to thinking of what is best for her and the kids and not just for you. Calm down, and try to slow down the divorce process out of concern for her stress.

Cherished

relative to money, we have a joint checking account that I fund completely, we have made no financial division. I will be responsible for her legal costs. There are no financial concerns at this point.

It certainly seems counter-culture in this marriage forum to simply accept that "I blew it" and "get over it."

You're right, I do want her to change - her behavior. I also want to change my behavior. Without any guidance, I don't think she'll come around. Is it pushy or helpful for our family and children to encourage her to read a book? It isn't simply my life that is at stake, I want a happy marriage to raise my children in.

ps: I wrote her a letter that I would give her with the book. Let me know what everybody thinks:


Dear XXX:
Acting on the advice of several people that care deeply about our family and our future, I am giving you a copy of this book. I have found it to be insightful and helpful in understanding how we got to this place. Please do not interpret this as anything more than a simple gesture, I do not wish to be antagonistic or offensive to you in any way.
I hope that you will consider reading this book, if not for the sake of our relationship, then for the happiness and love of our children. I believe that, despite my horrible actions, we owe it to our children to attempt to rebuild a marriage and family. While no child deserves to live in the presence of an abusive and unloving marriage, happily married parents provide an environment of love and respect for which there is no substitute. There is no guarantee that our marriage will survive even with total mutual commitment to salvage. By presenting this book to you, I am in no way assuming that you want to save our marriage. I simply hope that, if you have any doubts about what you want for your future, you will consider the methods in this book as a way to help.
I fear that as the divorce proceeds, conflict and animosity will harden our hearts and drive us farther apart. It is my sincerest wish for you to be happy, but I am unsure of whether you have any hope or desire to reconcile. I leave that decision to you, but I ask that you consider reading this book before you make that decision. There is hope for us, and we can have what this book offers � love.

i wouldn't. That is going to tick her off and she is going to say "why should I have to read anything when it is you....??" You get the picture.

A better solution is to call Steve Harley or his sister Dr Chalmers and have them tell you how to persuade her to get on the phone. They will give you talking points. And once they have her on the phone, they will SELL her on the prospect of saving this marriage and show her a plan to do that.

I am reposting my post above, because I think that is your best shot. But handing her a book is not persuasive and it will likely tick her off.

If you sent me that letter I would tell you to kiss my Texas ***....after I slapped you. Why should I have to read a book when you are the cad who destroyed our marriage. Why didn't you consider all that before you had an affair??? *YOU* need to go read a book!

Honestly, that letter is so hypocritical. For you to blame her for the "animosity" and the heart hardening when it was YOU who did it, is some amazing arrogance, friend.

THAT is how I would react and that is how I expect her to react.

My reaction to this would be very different: "dear, I am counseling with Dr Chalmers of Marriage Builders about what I have done to you and she is helping me understand the damage I have caused. She wants to know if you will call and give your perspective.."

If I had given my DH a book two months after D-Day, he would have packed his bags. Your job is to fix you and do everything you can to let your W know that you take 100 percent responsibility for your A (with none of those "buts") and to put in place EP's that will keep this from ever happening again. The things is, you don't "get it" if your first plan of action is to give her a book so that she will meet your needs.

When someone gets their leg blown to shreds in an accident, the doctor doesn't send them to physical therapy. He tries to stop the bleeding, gives something for pain, operates to try to save the leg. THEN, after the patient has healed from the trauma, physical therapy begins. Your W is still in the ER, bleeding.

I am a very very flawed person. I cheated on my H, and there is NOTHING about me that is any smarter or better than anyone else. Yet somehow it just made sense to me 4 years ago that regardless of what our M had been like before my A, my H becoming a "new man" was on the back burner. It was up to ME to do the heavy lifting and be patient patient patient. I expected pretty much nothing from him for months after D-Day. So I really don't understand when WS's main concern is when their spouse is going to get it.

Work on you.

Would you say that to a rape victim? A person whose child was killed? A person who was physically assaulted?

"hey, get over it!!"

Have you been telling your wife she should get over it? Becuase if you have, then I see the source of your problem here. It is that you are trying to whitewash your crime against her and don't understand what you have done.

Dr. Harley describes here how traumatic adultery is to its victims:

that isn't what I meant. I was responding to the poster who said I should get over the fact that I sank my marriage. I continue to look for advice, and I haven't asked her to do anything.

I like the idea of trying to get her on the phone with a MB counselor. I'll hold off on the whole book thing as it seems like a consensus is that it would indeed be perceived as aggressive or condescending. Definitely not my intention.

I don't generally post here on this forum, but this post has me royally ticked. Scubaman, I will say in advance that, in my book, a man that has an affair when his wife is pregnant is bad enough. But a man that starts an affair, then gets his wife pregant for the fourth time while he is still boinking his adultery partner? Then contines the affair? That takes cajones, and a devastating amount of self-entitlement.

For all your wife knows, you got her pregnant a few hours after you climbed out of bed with your affair partner! Your wife is pregnant, and primary provider for 3 small children, and you want her to step up and help with the heavy lifting? You haven�t earned anything close to that yet.

You have one choice, as I see it. Stop talking, and start acting like a man she would want to recover a marriage with. Humble yourself. Apologize to her family, especially her parents, in person! Apologize to the husband of your affair partner, in person! Do what your wife will allow you to do, financially and otherwise , to support her. Mow the lawn, fix things at the house, drop off groceries, whatever.

You want her to change, and for your marriage to completely recover that will likely be necessary down the road. But now is NOT the time to ask that of her. You have too much to prove first. And you can start by understanding the depth and breadth of the damage you have done.

I need a drink�

I agree. I really think if you can get her on the phone with a counselor who is a) sympathetic to her and b) will persuade her to try and save her marriage, you will be better off.

See, a MB coach will explain to her logically WHY the best outcome would be to be in a loving, safe, affair proof marriage with HER husband, the father of her children. That would the ideal solution for her.

That is the approach they will take, versus a traditional marriage counselor who will ask her what her goal is now. "what do you want and how can I help you get that?" Well, that is a stupid question to ask someone who is in extreme duress and doesn't KNOW what the best possible solutions are.

Do you see what I mean? If you have one shot to get her in with a MC, you need to make damn sure it is with someone who knows how to do this. Otherwise you will end up with a destructive plan based on her CURRENT FEELINGS.

And yes, she is right to be mad NOW, but her feelings are temporary, divorce is permanent. So it would be tragic to concoct a plan based on temporary feelings.

Also, the Harleys are not going to beat you up. They are going to say "how do we fix this." They are not going to counsel you together and they are not going to rehash your past.

But they WILL expect her to stop neglecting you and do the things necessary to create a happy, romantic marriage.

And they will expect you to eliminate the conditions that led to the affair in the first place, ie: sloppy boundaries.

whew! ok, I feel better. I agree you shouldn't just move on. You did a terrible thing, but I would fight for your marriage if I were you. You have way too much to lose. This isn't just your wife, but 4 little kids. This is very salvagable. And we will help you as much as we can!

I did apologize to her parents, in person. I wrote her father a 3 page letter and met him for coffee about 4 weeks ago. I have apologized to her husband. I have not tried to hide (anymore). I know what I did was wrong, and the only way to salvage things is for me to ack like a big boy and face the reality. No more lying!! No more hiding!! No more BS!!

Thanks for all the posts so far, this is really helpful for me. I'll call the Coaching Center on Monday and get things started. Keep the posts coming, all advice/criticism appreciated. I don't mind a reality slap across the face. I have much to learn.

Good that you did those things. Now remember that your words aren't worth spit at this point, and your actions are all that will show her you are a better man than you have been these last 2 years. And I mean actions over the long haul. Changes you make now will likely look to her like a desparate attempt to keep your family, and she will doubt your sincerity at every turn. EXPECT THIS! And don't put the burden on her to believe you--the burden is on YOU to convince her you are no longer that man.

As another poster on this forum like to quote, in the words of Yoda--"There is no try."

I wish you luck, for your children's sake,
Martes

SM, if they can just get her to the phone there is hope. They are not miracle workers, but I have seen them get some pretty relucatant spouses to the phone.

They will ask her to explain her perspective and I suspect she will express her hopelessness. This is where they can turn things around, because they can give her a step by step plan to a SAFE, loving marriage. They don't just say they can do something, they tell you step by step HOW they can get there. Having a well thought out PLAN tends to gives hopeless spouses what they need the most: HOPE.

Scubaman, I'm going to ask you for 4 lists (not necessarily in priority order):


1) What are 20 things you are going to do for your wife this coming week?

2) If you've considered giving her "His Needs / Her Needs" (which, BTW, I agree would be a really bad idea right now), then I presume you've thought a bit about what her needs are. If you haven't discussed her needs with her, you might be wrong on some of them, but if you had to list the top 5, what would they be?

3) What extraordinary precautions have YOU put in place to ensure that you won't resume the affair?

4) What are your reasons for wanting to be back with her?


As other posters have indicated, you can't change your wife; only she can do that. So work on changing what you can influence directly -- yourself & the way you interact with her.

I think her top 5 would be:
1. Trust and Openness (f'd that one big time)
2. Family Commitment (ditto, I guess)
3. Domestic Support (nannies weren't a substitute for me)
4. Financial Support (OK, so I got one in the bag)
5. Affection (seemed like she wanted it from the kids, not me)


Measures to prevent resuming the affair.
1. I hate her because I found out about things she lied to me about. She told a mutual friend that she would tell my wife all the nasty details of our relationship if I ever broke it off with her. That's exactly what she did. Yep, I used her for sexual gratification. She used me too. I totally see that our relationship was mutually manipulative and based on fantasy. I wouldn't touch her with a 10 foot pole at this point.
2. She no longer works where I do. She got canned after she was caught in lies about co-workers and me.
3. I told her when I broke it off that regardless of whether or not I ever salvage my marriage, I wanted nothing to do with her. She only reminds me of my weakness and self-indulgence. The memory of our affair is disgusting to me.
4. I have surrounded myself with friends and family that know where I am at all times, I am completely honest and transparent to them.

Why do I want to get back with her?
The simplest answer is that I love her. Remembering the time when we were emotionally close, it was the happiest time in my life. I admire her. I want to be loved by her, and I want to make her happy and feel love. She deserves a happy and loviing marriage, as do I. The last few years have been so dark, so cold. Things used to be great, and I want that again. Secondarily, I have 3.5 children that deserve to be raised in a loving family. The guilty feeling of wrecking their childhood by my selfishness is overwhelming. I want to do right by them. I owe it to them to do EVERYTHING I can for them.

Number three is very effective, the rest of it is not. It is good that you don't work with her, but you current feelings about her are meaningless. It is like the alcoholic who swears off drinking because of the sting of the last drunk. That sting wears off quickly enough and pretty soon he is back to romanticizing drinking. <-----this is what happens to adutlerers too.

And that is why it is important to ENSURE there is no contact for life. And that most certainly means looking at her facebook page, keeping pictures, driving by her house, etc. All that has to be cut out.

But for some reason you allowed another woman to meet your needs. That is something I would make sure never happens again. Having opposite sex friendships AND talking about one's personal lives is what leads to affairs. So that is where I would start if I were you. Do you have any opposite sex frienships?

scubaman, what do her parents think about all this? Do they want you to get back together?