Thanks Wheels. I can see exactly what you mean by the affair not being over until there is NC. Obviously with the way life works she cant just drop her job, so it takes a bit of planning. She has taken real steps towards NC.

Over the last few weeks, a few key things have happened -�
1-She promised to go ahead with NC, and get a new job in a new town and cut out OM
2-she spoke to OM at work to finally finish it and say there is no chance of anything else happening. I know this is true because OM then emailed WWs dad to say it was over and that they should rebuild things (ww dad has been so disgusted by ww, he still refuses to speak to her!). Who does OM think he is?!? that made even more people think he is an idiot.
3-She has been looking at flats for us both to move to in the new town together.
4-yesterday she booked a holiday for us both and has been talking about how to spend Christmas.�

I'm still not running completely empty on LUs either, so I get the feeling that a plan B would wreck the progress made. What really concerns me though is the 'just friends' thing because she says she is still not ready for anything sexual. Do you think that statement alone is enough to go to plan B? We find out if she gets her job in the new town next week!

Thanks for posting.

I can tell you why you�re not attractive to her: you�re too available.

It�s ironic, but it�s part of why Plan B works. Plan B, as a man, means that you take control, tell her what SHE needs to do to get you back, and then implements it.

Right now she has you eating out of the palm of her hand. All she has to do is snap those fingers.

How attractive would you be to her, alternatively, if you made her realize, and you convince yourself, that you don�t need this woman in your life and that she�s lucky to have you in her life. This means that you need to start carrying on with your life.

Here�s the reality: you�re young and you have no kids with this woman. What makes her so special? Why should you put up with someone who doesn�t want you?

That�s the attitude you need to adopt. Once you do, you�ll see her song and dance change.

I think there is a thread you should read.

This is a poster who was here before I found this wonderful place.
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2405816&page=1

Her name was Traci and now she changed it. She was already in Plan B when I got here. Her WH came home at the end of December. She has been trying to recover but her WH from day 1 said that he was NOT sure. Read her story and see what people told her.

Making plans for a future with you is part of the wayward script. I saw my Mom do that with my Dad days before she left him for OM. She lived with OM for almost 2 years and has now gone back to my Dad. I think my Dad is done though. They aren't using MB so it's rough. Even my own WH, months after he told me he was leaving me to go live with his "friend"(OW)said things like, "When WE can afford new tires, we will buy some." I just smiled but inside I thought, "What WE, there's no WE anymore."

Don't let your wife lead this recovery. She would lead it into the ground. You have a great resource here. USE IT.

HTLD, good post. I don't think it only applies to BHs though. I know that I have had to change myself and gain my confidence back. It's good for a BW to find their voice as much as a BH. Good post.

I think it�s good advice for either gender and for no matter how long you�ve been married. If you�re too available, you�re not attractive. A man who worships the ground you walk on is creepy. Same with a woman.

It�s a partnership. It�s like a couple on a dance floor. Those that click and tear up the dance floor. My W and I are taking dance lessons. We see different partners in our class. My W hates dancing with the men who are noodles and don�t have a good frame and provide proper leads. I don�t like dancing with woman who seem to be doing their own things versus following my cues and leads. When the wife and I get together, we dance without a major script or set pattern. We click. Yes, I lead, but she�s an active partner who provides good feedback on the floor. If either of us breaks that, then we can�t dance.

Same in a relationship. As a man, be strong. Give her a frame and strong arms. Don�t be Mr. Noodle that doesn�t lead.

She�s doing her own thing.

The point is that you can always get another dance partner, but you have to fix your own frame first. Stop being Mr. Noodle. Be someone she wants to dance with.

Yes, thats exactly what I feel like - but when in plan A I'm not sure how to avoid that. Is my only option really a plan B? Im going to completely back off and see what happens, whilst trying to meet her ENs, although it seems like a total contradiction!

She seems to be getting very slowly better with me, although she does have flashes of pure venom towards me occasionally. Overall, if I compare now to a month ago, a lot has changed - we sleep in the same bed, we have more fun together - we spend more time together and she seems to have cut off OM and making an effort to get away.

At the minute, Im thinking of continuing for a short while whilst preparing for a crowning glory to plan A, then go to plan B before we move town (i.e. I don't move). I'm thinking of keeping Plan A going until this holiday in a month then spending an amazing week together (Im really confident we can have an amazing time together). Hopefully that can be the jewel in the crown of an amazing plan A, before going completely out of contact on plan B.

She can then move town - be lonely away from me, I know she'll have NC, and only go back to her if she asks me and promises to make an effort to get us back on track - for good. If she doesn't make those promises, I'll at least still be around my friends who are raring to go with plan 'get-over-it-party-time'


Sadly, I am nowhere near this point, but I recognise that is where I need to be. I try to persuade myself this, but I cant help thinking that WW is an amazing woman, and even if I found another one - she wouldnt have the 12 amazing yrs we have had growing together. My friends tell me this too and I know you're right but its just not happening for me yet, I haven't got that golden ticket yet :-( damn I wish I did.

Scotland - thanks for the link, I spent aaaages reading about Tracy's storey and I can see her recent trouble with her second plan B and her 'cake eating' freeloader husband. There is one post where you can see her LB go bankrupt and she starts her second plan B. Although the resentment there is not what I have luckily, and Im not bankrupt yet either, she is lucky to be completely free from all the sadness hope of recovery. I can see how effective her plan B was first time around though.

Overall - what do people think of my plan to do plan B after providing an amazing time to top off my plan A with a crowning glory holiday? I could go straight to plan B now - but after she has booked this holiday and paid for it, it would make her think Im a total idiot (and I too think it would be out of order).

Guys, I also read a link posted on Tracy's thread, which I have read before, but I think it describes well where my WW is right now....

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

I kind of have the feeling that WW would by into the plan that Dr Harley describes. If she does in the next couple of weeks - before I go to Plan B - should I abort going to plan B, or just go to plan B anyway as a way to establish more control/respect from WW?

Update- WW has got the new job and will start in about a month. This means the affair will be 100% over with NC. She says she would like things to work out but cannot promise she will fall in love again with me. We are getting on great, but she is thinking about moving without me because she doesn't know if we can work. :-(

I haven't forced the issue, because id rather she made the decision for me to go with her off her own back.

The problem is, she is still very foggy as NC will only start when we move. But I'm sure I could persuade her into being happy with us both starting again in the new town.

Should I move with her and give plan A a real chance with NC, or go to plan B and let her move on her own if that's what she wants?

Bump

I believe Harley recommends Plan A for BS/Men six months if you can handle it. I think you are still early in trying to R and seperation this early is almost guaranteed to end your M with WW. A woman needs to be emotionally attached to her husband and she can't do that unless she spends time with him. My suggestion is continue Plan A and delay her going on her own. Is your WW working with you on MB principles or not (sorry if answered earlier in your thread)?

Gg

Thx Gg, I guess that's what I wanted to hear. I think I can handle it for quite a while longer even though it is very hard at times. Ww isn't really working with me to save our marriage, it feels like it's mainly down to me, but she has made some important promises like NC and spending more time together to have fun (which has been happening). She told me she still has feelings for OM and NC won't happen until (if) we move away.

Last week WW was offered a great job in a new town (although with a 2k paycut). Its much cheaper to live there so we would probably not lose out financially. It gives us our first real shot at NC and she said if she decides to go, it would be with me and to try and save our marriage. She told me yesterday that she still hasn't made up her mind, but a decision has to be made today. If she decides to take it, i think it would be a massive step to save our M. Not sure what I do if she doesn't take the job, I'll be gutted because I've pinned my hopes on it.

Andy, things are going okay even without NC (UA time and minimal/no LB's right?). But your R isn't going to recover until NC is firmly established. You know that.

Plan B is for certain situations, and designed to retain the last shred of love you have for your ww. It's for Andy. I think you're familiar with Limbo's situation. Steve Harley himself doesn't have Limb going to Plan B yet. I doubt if he would advise you to do so.

So, I agree with Gg above - it's not time for Plan B. In fact I think that would really confuse your foggy wayward even more at this juncture, if that's possible.

Does she understand the importance of NC? I think you've made that point to her. So the new job should be good. You darn well better go with her - how would you keep up the UA time if you don't?

Move and get on with the business of saving your marriage, I say. There should be no reason for contact after she changes jobs and moves, right? You've shown tremendous restraint thus far, patience, and quite frankly lack of boundaries (I'm learning all about boundaries myself). If you find out there's contact after the move, or another OM or anything besides full on efforts to revive the marriage back to levels never before experienced, then another plan is in order. Till then, trust but verify.

opt

Cheers opt, Thx for the advice.
I agree that after we move there should be no reason for her to contact him as it would ruin the effort she has put in to make a change. She said she'd move tonight and do it for us despite the pay cut. It will be a massive upheaval but I think worth it for the marriage.

Being here in this town makes it difficult for other reasons too because we are near my family and she cant stand me being with them when she is not around. I agreed to go to my moms bday party next week but WW says if I go, she'll call it all off! I can understand she doesn't like people talking about her, but that seems completely unreasonable. I've told her we have to find a better way around this problem because I'm not going to sacrifice my family. Am I right to stand my ground and not set a bad precedent, or should I cancel going and hope for making up with my family in the future? I hold none of the cards, but I have to stand my ground. What do people think? She says if I keep going of with my family, we won't have a chance. Dammit, every day brings another sh*t situation.

uno-dos-tres,
this does not sound like a repentant wayward who has owned her choices and is willing to accept the consequences of her despicable behavior. Is this a new "LB" for her? I.E. ever since the affair/exposure etc.? In the absence of her adultery, would there be any issue with you spending time with your family while she's not around?

Andy, has this woman EARNED back her trust? Do you think it's reasonable for a woman who has behaved as she has (with complete disrespect for you and her marriage vows) to be calling the shots?


Maybe I'm a little upset right now, but I'm going to say this anyway: Your wife has no respect for you, that's proven by her behavior. If you don't go to your MOTHER's BIRTHDAY PARTY, your family will have no respect for you either! That leaves only Andy - I hope you have an overabundance of self-respect.


Yeah, if she keeps acting like an entitled wayward, you won't have a chance.

She might be ready to move, one hundred and twenty three, but she's got a loooooooong way to go to move on, methinks.

Opt

Andy, about you not going to your mother's Bday, what are the reasons that your WW doesn't want you to go? If it is simply because she doesn't want to have to deal with he consequences of her actions? I would say, tough POOPIES. If she doesn't feel the consequences of her actions, and you don't let that happen, you will be sliding down a very slippery slope. She can't and shouldn't hide from what she has done. It is NOT up to her if you stay married, it is up to YOU.

Don;t let her bully you or she will use this over and over again until you show her that you will not allow her to use this over you anymore. Do you seriously think she would file for a D because you went to your mother's party? If she did, what would be her reason for filing? "My H went to his mommy's bday party." She would be laughed out of court.

Reverse babble her and tell her that she is more than welcome to come to your Mom's Bday party. She is right? Or does your Mother not want to be around your WW? Let your WW feel the consequences of her actions so she can learn from them. Hiding away is very childish. I can't imagine someone telling me that I couldn't go to my mother's Bday party and me even entertaining the thought. I could understand if my mother was an enemy to my marriage. If this isn;t the case, then go.

Yes, this is a new LB for her simply because she doesn't like the thought of people all talking about her and judging her when she is not there. Dr H writes that at his point I should be avoiding ALL LBs and Judgement situations that make her feel uncomfortable. Unfortunately, that is exactly what I've NOT avoided. WW now hates my sister (who will be there) because my sister told WW that she hopes she never finds happiness after what she has done. She also doesnt like my mom because she thinks she gossips about WW. Sadly, because of what she did, nobody invited WW to the party, it would just be such an awkward situation and would ruin the evening. WW says I should stick by her if Im serious about making it up - I haven't said this, but I can see her point in that respect, I just think its totally unfair that I should be the one that has to deal with the consequences of her actions, not her. Maybe I should just grit my teeth and take the unfairness? I dont want to be a doormat - but maybe thats what I have to be temporarily until we get back on track?

I totally agree.

Thats right, but it is early days and Im sure after a few months, she will be able to handle coming to family events with me and dealing with it. It really is because it is such early days. She's depressed because she is in withdrawal from OM, and now this makes it even tougher.

She hasn't completely earned my trust back, although she has made some big steps.

Thats how I see it, I shouldn't be bullied out of this situation - but I know if I stand my ground we'll go a long long way backwards, and I'm genuinely worried that it will be too far backwards. She will always use this as an example of 'when I didn't stand by her'. Its a catch 22. There is no good way out of this situation. If I give in, my family will be upset, if I don't give in, WW will be upset. Im stuck in a situation where I have to chose between my family or my WW.

The only way I can see out of this is to lie :-( tell WW that party was called off and then she thinks I didn't bow to her ridiculous demands, but we can still go forward. At the same time tell family I can't make it because of some work thing. I don't want to do it cos it's the cowards way out, but at the moment it seems like the best option.

Andy,

How about you man up, quit being led by the balls by a WW, and tell her that you will go to your mom�s because she�s family and it�s her birthday?

If she gives you crap, it�s simple: �I�m sorry you feel that way, but it was your actions that led them to feel that way about you. Want a cookie?�

Seriously, I know I�m being harsh, but it is really frustrating to see a man castrate himself before a cheating wife. SHE messed up, not you.

So she gives you crap, simply ask, �How would your family feel about me if the roles were reversed?�

Look, I say this as a man who behaved exactly like you. It�s really maddening to see when you�re not emotionally attached to the situation. The greatest regret I have looking back is that I behaved exactly the way you are doing so now.

What I understand, in hindsight, is that a WW has no respect for a man who caves and gives in to her whims or tantrums. Quite the opposite. She will have caniptions if you stand your ground, but she will respect it.

How much would she respect you if you said, �I�m sorry this upsets you, but she�s my mother. I�m going to her birthday whether you like it or not.�

Show her an ounce of indifference. This is a lot more attractive than, �Yes, dear. I will submit to your demands. How can I be more of your puppy dog? I will do whatever you wish so long as you don't leave me becasue I can't do better than you and I'm not worth of a woman who respects me. I'm lucky to have you, even if you are cheating on me.�

She�s not going to divorce you because you go to your mom�s. She�s going to leave because she�s an adulterous woman who wants to pursue an idiotic fantasy and she has her head up her a$$.

Don�t set your family�s needs aside because of her. Their feelings are normal. Hers are not. If you don't go you will regret it and your family will simply hate her more. They won't believe some last minute lie you come up with.

One of the truisms I've read here and on other sites:

"The one who cares the least has the most power."

You're totally right. She's gonna kick up a stink just like when I revealed the affair (she still doesn't understand why I did that and says her friends don't either!)

It's time to take some venom again but I guess I should have expected it again anyway. she wrote an email to me earlier saying:

"they�re not inviting me to it despite knowing that we are giving it a go. �That is judging me then, isn�t it?"

She has no intention of going because she doesn't like the people there. They won't mention her at the meal/party because they have better things to talk about. My bro who is arranging it doesn't even know that we are back together and it certainly doesn't feel like it to me either.

It's so true that the person who cares least has the most power. It's pathetic on my part, I can see that.