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krusht #2408300 07/21/10 03:35 PM
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krusht,

Gotcha. I'll avoid any indirect talk of our relationship. That's how I messed up last night.

However, I read a long, detailed post on MB about a key stick of Plan A: the BS communicate in a direct, kind way the hurt and devastation that the A is causing. This was in the back of my mind when I talked with my beloved WW last night.

I've been in Plan A since May. I talked with Dr. Bill Harley on his radio show, and besides sending me a free copy of LB, he said I need to go to Plan A.

In fact, he said to pull out all the stops to win her back. Send letters. Give her flowers. And most of all, get a job. (By contrast, the OM has a well-paying job, though two teenagers from his first marriage that he has to support).

My WW does talk a lot. She's threatened to communicate with me only via email and that her lawyer would contact me. Neither has happened.

She hasn't filed because she can't. In her state, she needs to wait one year after separation to file. However, she only has to wait another 3 months, in mid-October, to do so.

-----------------------------------------
Me: BH, 39 (and jobless)
Her: WW, 33
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
Her move out: Fall '09
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10

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I'm looking for perspective. Why am I so blue that my WW plans to take our two DD's on a weeklong vacation with her family to the beach?

I was feeling confident yesterday. I made progress getting a job; got a call from my WW that our DD3 now uses the potty regularly, whiich sounded like the wife I knew and loved once; and thought that whatever happens with our M, I could handle it. Today I feel sad. There is little I want more than relaxing at the beach with my wife (my one and only love bug) and our two beautiful daughters.

... Maybe we men aren't meant to feel strongly.


---------------------------------

Me: BH, 39 (and jobless)
Her: WW, 33
2 young kids (DD3 and DD1.5)
Her EA: Fall '08
Her move out: Fall '09
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10

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MJ,

Did someone say you can't go?

The family would not want you there?

Could you do an end around and ask her folks if you could show up?

Tell me the OM will not be there.

""Why am I so blue"" You are alone, while all loved ones are elsewhere.

Drive to the beach and be close to them, keep an eye out for the OM, and play with your daughters. Sleep in your car if you have to.

If you are in SoCal, get a parka and a goose down sleeping bag.

Coldest July since 1933...read it in the paper this morning.

Stay strong my friend.

kirk


CORDUROY PILLOWS ARE MAKING HEADLINES!!
krusht #2410723 07/27/10 04:39 PM
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krusht,

No way my WW's family would want me there. After I sent my exposure letter to my IL's in January, my father in law said he and my mother in law didn't want to talk with me. Although I was never close emotionally to them, I asked him for his daughter's hand in marriage and went on long day trips with him.

I doubt the OM would be there. My WW is still married to me, and her parents are active Catholics.

Why do you suggest driving to the beach and keeping an eye on them?



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krusht,

By the way, would telling my WW that I would like to go on the trip come across as needy or qualify as an EN for honesty?

I'm guessing the former, as my WW has no interest in reconciling until I get a steady full-time job.

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I posted the message below on igrip's thread, and will repost it here. Your responses are appreciated!


SDCW_Man wrote,

"By any means available, can you get the OM to dump the WW?"

Do you have tips to get the OM to dump a WW?

The problem, as I see it, is two-fold: getting the OM to dump your WW but retaining the allegiance of the WW. This is a difficult task, to say the least. Doing only one of those things is insufficient. The OM dumps the WW, but the WW hates you. The WW loves you, but also loves the OM.

I have considered several methods to get the OM to dump my WW:

-- send him daily emails asking him to stop seeing my WW

-- going to his house and telling him to knock it off

-- challenging him to a fight

-- beat the hell out of him

None of those solutions strikes me as likely to work. For now, I hold out hope for one possibility: the OM dumps my WW because he doesn't want to care for our two young kids, in addition to providing financial support for his two teenage kids.

What do you and others think?

---------------

Me: BH, 39 (and jobless)
Her: WW, 33
Two kids (DS 3 and DS 1.5)
EA: Fall '08
She moves out: Fall '09
Exposed to 12 people plus all my family members
Plan A since May '10 at Dr. Bill Harley's recommendation
Countin' on a miracle to come through
Michael Jan's story: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2410725&page=1

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his two teenage kids.

Expose to them, can you say facebook!

Gamma

Gamma #2411022 07/28/10 12:55 PM
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MJ,

You�re doing bad because you�re playing softball while your WW is playing hardball. Why don�t the girls live with you? Is there a legal document saying you can�t have the girls living with you?

If there is no order saying that you can�t have the girls, then you have no protection, but neither does she. Nothing prevents you from keeping the girls at your place. SHE moved out, correct? Or did you?

The situation is very simple: You file immediately to get sole physical and legal custody of the girls. Why you�re not doing this is beyond me. You�re sitting by praying that your WW comes to her senses and comes back.

Here�s the reality: She�s not. She isn�t going to and you�re losing the battle for your kids. What you need to be doing is filing legal papers, consulting a lawyer, and bringing the legal hammer down. File for alienation of affection against OM and start taking control of the situation.

You should not allow this man around your kids. There should be an investigation over the comments made by your daughter. You�re thinking about WW when you need to be thinking of your kids. Put the kids first and you can�t go wrong.

File for primary custody. Your wife is at war while you sit there in denial that you�re being bombed. The casualties are your daughters.

Get a lawyer. File papers.

You can still do MB while protecting yourself legally. Mortarman did it. He filed, won primary custody of his kids, and was about to get even more time with them when his WW finally woke up. But it took strength on his part to gather himself and fight the fight.

You�re paralyzed by fear. Wake up. Treat the marriage as if it was dead and start protecting your rights as a father!

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helpthelostdads,

I explored the scenario you outlined this winter. I consulted with my lawyer and read about my rights.

Bottomline: I don't have the money to fight for sole custody of my kids. I'm dead broke, to the point that I can barely pay my rent and bills. And anyway, the law in our states is joint custody absent physical abuse or my WW being a drug addict.

However, you're right: I plan to make sure the OM is not around my kids.
------------------------------------------------

Me: BH, 39 (and jobless)
Her: WW, 33
Two kids (DS 3 and DS 1.5)
EA: Fall '08
She moves out: Fall '09
Exposed to 12 people plus all my family members
Plan A since May '10 at Dr. Bill Harley's recommendation
Countin' on a miracle to come through
Michael Jan's story: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2410725&page=1

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I'm intrigued by Gamma's suggestion to expose to the OM's son, who is not his biological father and no longer takes his last name. Exposing to his teenage kid would wake up the OM to the reality of his actions. However, I have exposed three different times, including as recently as four weeks ago.

So here's my question for everyone: Would exposing to his teenage kid help get the OM to release his death grip over my WW? (His other child doesn't seem to have a FB account).

------------------------------------------------

Me: BH, 39 (and jobless)
Her: WW, 33
Two kids (DS 3 and DS 1.5)
EA: Fall '08
She moves out: Fall '09
Exposed to 12 people plus all my family members
Plan A since May '10 at Dr. Bill Harley's recommendation
Countin' on a miracle to come through
Michael Jan's story: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2410725&page=1

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Ok, when will it be official?

I know I sound harsh. I remember being in your shoes. I literally gave away EVERYTHING with the hope that WW would return. She didn't. It was the best thing she could have done for me.

I did, however, fight for my rights in court.

Get your rights in writing. File divorce papers.

The second you accept that the marriage is dead you will take control of things.

Accept it. It's over. She's not coming back.

This doesn't mean she won't change her mind someday, but you're stuck in a situation where you're hoping and hoping. Well, hope isn't a plan.

Take action. I was broke and homeless. I got a job, filed papers for custody, and secured my rights.

All I'm saying is that it seems like the end of the world, but it's not.

I'm happily remarried to a wonderful woman that is a MASSIVE upgrade from my WXW in EVERY way. She's a wonderful woman.

I'm only sharing that to let you know that there is hope, but not hope in terms of restoring your marriage. That may or may not happen, but you need to accept that your marriage is dead, because it is, even if she comes back. The marriage you had is dead. If she comes back it will have to be completely rebuilt.

But accepting that is dead gives you a chance to grieve it's loss and get past where you are now.

Yes, you will hear little things from your WW that make you think she's her old self. She's not.

Go to plan B, stop all communications with her other than anything dealing with your kids, and put a stop to this man being around your children. That's going to take legal action and there shold certainly be an investigation by CPS.


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who is not his biological father and no longer takes his last name

Sounds like the son already hates him so likely no effect, sorry missed that point in your thread.

Gamma

Gamma #2411073 07/28/10 02:40 PM
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Gamma,

No problem at all; thanks for responding. I appreciate your suggestion.

I was around the two of them once. It seemed that the OM cared about the kid; and in fact, he travels 300 miles once a month or two to see him. But the kid isn't too reachable. He's shy for one thing. But he also seems disaffected. He got lousy grades his freshman year and suffered from a lack of self confidence.

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Hey MJ,

I believe I began seeing your posts here earlier this year, and then it seemed you halted.

While on the one hand I want to offer you encouragement and support, I do have a question. That question is, what are you realistically expecting from your Plan A at this time. It appears that you have been living apart for a year now. That is a long time. It's my understanding that implementing a Plan A is difficult at best when not residing together. From my limited experience here most affair-stricken couples do still live together, and as such, there is an opportunity for the BS to meet at least some needs - FS, DS, FC, and at least some degree of RC and Conversation, in addition to the UA time together. With what you are saying about your WW's attitude now in regard to her fending off any of your attempts (e.g., barely conversing with you and her reluctance to have you with her on her beach vacation), it just seems somewhat futile. In this regard I happen to agree with helpforlostdads in seriously going to Plan B.

I also think that many people here, including me, are concerned that you are enabling your D's to be exposed to this OM needlessly. If your WW was telling the truth in that it was "just a few times", my opinion is that is "just a few times" too many. MJ, do you really realize how confusing this most likely is and will be to your three-year-old daughter? On one hand mom does not allow dad to be with us, and on the other hand mome does allow OM to be with us?? Aside from even the possiblility of molestation, you need to be concerned with this MJ, and even if you have to eat hot dogs once a day for your main meal you need to raise funds for an attorney to protect your D's. So I also agree with helpforlostdads.

MJ, I am not trying to be harsh or intimidating. I just feel you are allowing yourself to be misguided. If I were in your shoes I would focus on, and in order 1) protecting your daughters, and 2) getting a job now. These are things you should now be doing way in front of longing to be with your WW on her vacation. And by the way, I am astounded at your in-laws reaction to you regarding your exposure. That is unless there is some prior stuff that they blame you for. I am Catholic as well, but no matter if catholic or whatever, Most people treat violation of M vows seriously.

You do have my support MJ, but in the words of one Vince Lombardi, you need to run to daylight on these matters.

Tom


Tom2010 #2411168 07/28/10 06:13 PM
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Tom2010,

You make good points. Let me take them in order.

I did post here in the winter and stopped. You have a good memory.

I'm not expecting much from my WW, who will be called Honey from now on. In fact, I'm expecting nothing. I simply want to add love units if possible. This was Dr. Bill Harley's advice to me when I called in to his radio show. I explained my situation to him, including the fact that she moved out. His response was, "Put out all of the stops to win her back. Writer her letters. Give her flowers." He sent me a copy of LB in the mail.

You make an excellent point about not exposing my DD's to the OM. He's a bad man. My problem is the specifics. Should I tell Honey in a calm but firm voice, "I do not want the OM to be around our daughters"? She'll deny that the OM sees them. How can I back up my words that the OM is NOT to be around them?

I hear you about protecting my daughters and getting a job. I am working overtime to get a job and will increase my vigilance about protecting DD's.




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I forgot some specifics of my own.

-- Helpthelostdads, I appreciate your concern. You don't have to post to my thread and you do. But Dr. Bill Harley's advice is not to file for divorce yourself. Don't take legal action, he says. Let the WS do it. I'll heed his counsel.

-- Honey can file for D in mid October.

-- Fighting for full-time custody of my kids would cost $10k-$20k. Even then, my chances of winning would be dubious.


-- Dr. Bill Harley told me on the phone, in May, to go to Plan A for six months. That means that I would go to Plan B in November.

-- I know where the OM lives. I drove to his house to confirm that Honey slept over there. Can I use my knowledge of his whereabouts to my advantage?

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MJ,

So you are in Plan A, as advised by Dr H...

So what are your wife's top ENs?

What Love Busters do you repeat without thinking that you can take steps to eliminate?

You mention her having no interest in reconciling until you have a full time job. How goes the job search and what kind of job are you seeking?

You have to realize that there is no magic bullet to find in any of this. You won't just suddenly find something new to try that will make your wife want to come back to you. You have to win her back and show her (not tell her) that you are a better choice than POSOM. If he is a controlling maniac, let him demonstrate that, which if he really is, he will accomplish far better than you ever could.

So what are you doing that could make your wife want to return to being married to you and spend the rest of her life with you? What are the things you are DOING to show her that?

You speak of cost involved in fighting for custody of your kids and say you simply can't afford to fight. I get the broke part. These days I am so broke I can't afford to pay attention longer than a few minutes... (I know, bad humor)


But if you don't find a way to fight, what do you think your odds of seeing your children grow up will be? OM or some other OM will end up raising your kids, teaching them HIS idea of morality and ethics. He will be at their graduation and maybe their wedding as well. He will be called Grandpa by their children...

Those things are certain if you don't fight, MJ. You might lose for lack of funds or just out of sheer bad luck. You could lose and miss out on your children's lives if you fight, but if you don't fight, it's a given...

Is there a local father's rights group in your area? Is there a law firm that is known to stand up for father's rights?

The thing about Plan A is that it is a plan of action. You need to analyze the situation and devise steps that you can take and at the same time protect yourself from being taken to the cleaners by your WW and her boyfriend AND protect your kids from growing up to think that cheating on your spouse is an acceptable way to live your life.

What are your wife's top ENs. How can you meet those?

What Love Busters are your downfall? What steps can you take to ensure they never happen again?

How can you demonstrate to your wife and to your ILs that YOU are the best man for your wife?

If you go into Plan B, now or in the near future, do you know who you will use as intermediary? Do you know how you will ensure your rights as a father are maintained while not having to see your wife? What is you plan of action if she files, seeks primary or sole custody of your kids and perhaps files charges against you wrongfully to keep you from seeing your kids?

What are you legally responsible for as far as debts and financial stuff goes?

Focus...

Breath...

Think...

PLAN...

ACT...

Plan A is the hardest thing you have ever had to do, MJ, but I have to tell you that if you get that far, recovery is way harder than Plan A...

You know where OM lives and know your wife slept there? Take pictures. Be there as she arrives and again as she leaves in the morning Don't sit outside all night, since you don't need the cops coming down on you for stalking, which is the way it will spin if she decides to push for it and for heaven's sake don't let them catch you sitting there watching them. The idea is not to start a war, it is to gather proof that she is cheating in case it is usable to your advantage either for exposure or in court as part of a custody battle.

If you are in Plan A, what are the specifics of your Plan A?

If you are planning for Plan B, what are the specifics of your PLAN?

No magic...

Nothing to make the fog go away and for her to beg you to come home...

Nothing you can do to reason or try to talk sense into her...

She has checked out. She has moved on. She's GONE...

What can you identify that YOU can do that will win her back?

That is Plan A...

Mark

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Mark1952, thanks for your long and detailed response. I appreciate it. This is the damn toughest period in my life -- nothing else comes close -- and good advice like yours gives me hope.

My wife's top EN's? I will give them from what I think would be her perspective:

1. Financial support
-- I'm jobless and all but broke!
-- Except for one six-month period, she has always made more than me. Until our DD 3 came along, this had not been a problem.

2. Family commitment
-- She criticizes me, not without justification, for the mosquito bites that my DD1.5 receives.
-- I should add that I take care of our DD's Thursdays, Fridays, and most of Saturdays. I'm not SuperDad. But I can hold my own.

3. Honesty & openness
-- She didn't know I was doing poorly at my next to last job. I received a poor evaulation report. She said this was the trigger for her to move out. (Yeah, right).

4. Conversation
-- She used to like me calling her daily. The OM made his moves on Honey when I didn't call her at night during my night job.

5. Affection
-- She criticized me for liking our daughters more than her. In truth, I failed to buy her clothes for anniversaries, birthdays, and the like.

6. Sexual fulfillment
-- We disagreed occasionally over contraception. She insisted on using it. Sometimes I gave in. But I objected. And sometimes she gave in.

I am certain about the importance of the first three. C and A may be more important, but given her attitude toward me, it is hard to tell.

My LB's:

1. Independent behavior
-- I used to work on Saturday mornings and Mondays, days she had off. I thought working on those times was OK. After all, we had agreed I could.

2. Annoying habits
-- showing up late to events
-- DD1.5 getting mosquito bites due to my lack of repellent.

3. Disrespectful judgments
-- I'm a writer. I make judgments. Or used to. I read LB's and learned the error of my ways.

4. Angry outbursts
-- This has not been a problem since last year, before I read HNHN and LB by Dr. H).

How I can meet Honey's EN's:

1. Financial support
a. I'm waiting to hear back from three companies with whom I
interviewed. One job would make good money, possibly more
than she earns. The other job's pay is uncertain. The
final one would be for a great company but earn only $40k.
b. I need to bone up on ways to make money.

2. Honesty and openness
a. I am almost radically honest with her. I told her that I
owed her money from our rent deposit from 2.5 years ago. I
tell her in detail about my time caring for our daughters.
I lied to her about putting the GPS in her car, but I don't
think I was supposed to be honest about that.

3. All of the other EN's could be met if her A ended. I know what
I did wrong. All I need is a chance and time.

After reflecting on your message, I see that I need a detailed plan, not just a general idea. The plan should be written out, on an actual piece of paper. I will work on this tomorrow.

By the by, Honey is still bitter about me exposing a month ago, which was the third time overall. She talks with me on the phone OK. But in person, she's distant and doesn't ask me questions.

The other night, when she asked how I was doing with our girls, she lectured me about potty training DD3. I said to her in a calm but firm voice, "I don't like your tone. I don't need a lecture from you." Her response, "That's rich coming from the guy who a month ago told all of my friends and family members ..." I interrupted her before she finished her thought. Does anyone have thoughts on her continued upset? Just the same ol' same ol' from waywards?




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helpthelostdads and Tom2010,

I hear you about going to Plan B. Honey moved out 8.5 months ago; she doesn't want to communicate about us, except after I expose her A, when she threatens me; and the OM likely spends time with our kids.

But two things keep me from going to Plan B. Dr. Harley said to stay in Plan A for as long as possible, November at the latest. And I still don't have a job.

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MJ,

""And I still don't have a job.""

Curious as to where do you get your spending $$?? Is your WW giving you an allowance?

Do you get unemployement?

And this is her number one EN??

Looks like any chance at all in getting her back lies in getting a job. Number 1 priority. Double your efforts!!

kirk


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