I was hoping you would see and respond to my earlier post. I respect and value your answers and advice.<P>But you know, I was thinking....what is YOUR story? Are you here on the board supporting us or have you experienced the pain that we all are experiencing? Just wondering, but thanks for all your input.

Susan,<P>I just saw your post. The answer to your question is complex. The short answer is that I am here because I am learning so much.<P>I have not had an affair and to my knowledge neither has my wife. I am older than many here and have been married over 20 years. However, in the last year many things have happened and I began to seriously have thoughts of divorce, mostly because I felt the W no longer loved me and I wanted more from life than I had. Sounds like MLC doesn't it?<P>I stumbled upon this site by accident and began to read and read and read. I realized there was so much I never knew or understood. I was particularly drawn to the infidelity portion of this site. Why I was not sure. I finally figured that part out. WHile there is sooo much pain here, the one thing that makes it addictive is the HOPE. People come here for hope and with hope. THese are people I can learn something from and admire. Do they all succeed No. But they try and that is what is so special.<P>I lurked for many months and finally posted to Facing Choices. Her situation was so bad, and completly of her own making it was very frustrating. People here like Chris, Suse, Dunc, K, SHA, Ltaylor and more all posted but she did not listen. It became obvious the her H loved her, but, shall we say, was communicationally challenged. She would not see it. SHe is the poster child for the denial part of the affair.<P>In any event I have learned many things about myself. I also came to realize that while I am not a councelor, I have lead shall we say a more extensive life than many. For example I married in my 30's and lead an enjoyable bachelor (sp) life. I have traveled extensively, I have children, and I do the things most people do. One thing I learned many years ago is that people are pretty much the same anywhere you go in the world once you get down to basics. Another is that people with problems rarely see the obvious; that is why this board is so good. Are you being told anything you really did not know? Sometimes though someone will say it in a way that it hits a button. Every now and then I feel that I may have a slightly different perspective on something and I will post, but I am surely not an expert on anything.<P>I will say this. One of the things I have seen here that is really an eye opener, and yet in light of what I just said should not have been is the response and behavior of both the betrayed and the betrayer is so similar in situation after situation. Even the statements made to one another are the same. Harley has it correct in his approach. It must be simple and it must be consistent with the data. It seems to be. One of my favorite quotes is from Thomas Mann " Order and simplification are the first steps toward the mastery of a subject". Do you think that applies to marriage. I do.<P>Consider you marriage. Both with multiple affairs obvious chaos with regard to feelings. Yet you two are still married. Stand back and look. What would you see if your best friends or someone you did not know where in this situation? Order (you are still in this marriage because you love each other). Simplification (over simplification) you must be very afraid to get close to each other otherwise you would not keep doing this. Why the fear? I don't know. Do you love each other too much? Something in your past? Perhaps a therapist could help but it is the interaction between the two of you that is causing this. That is why individual therapy will not work as needed. It is your interaction that must be considered, in my humble opinion. <P>There are many other conjectures that could be made but I don't know you or your H. You really have not provided very much information other than your battles with feelings for OM. Why are you battling? You have had affairs before. What are you battling for? I know the answer to that Order and Simplification. You both need it. Quit making your life complex. Also recall that the marriage vows are about committment (honor, love, obey, charish). You seem to be having trouble with love. But that is not all there is to a marriage. <P>Look at most of the betrayers; Airheart for example. He wants a real "in love" feeling. He had that with OW, but he did not have the others. Is he being realistic? My opinion no. Your opinion may be yes. His opinion (the one that counts) yes. He has to figure it out.<P>So now you know my story. A bit long winded but since you are the only one interested I could burn the space and bits.<P>I wish you the best of luck in your marriage and regaining the insight needed to make it work. WHile I am not wildly religous, I do feel that religion is very important to people in times like this. Whatever yours is use it now.<P>God Bless You and Your H<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited October 26, 1999).]

Thank you so much for your reply. I am sure everyone here is interested in your story. You have so much insight. It is just that we are in so much pain, we focus so much on ourselves, that sometimes we never even stop to think about others. That is also a problem in our marriages, I suppose, we are so focused on us and the OP that we don't even stop to think about our spouses. <P>I am older here too, matter of fact nearly 44, real soon. And my husband is 53. We have been married for 23 years with on son, 19, that just started college this year. It just seemed too much to throw down the tubes. <P>My husband had the first affair years ago, and I felt that I had no choice but to ignore it and hope that we had learned from it. Yet, we never did discuss or process or do anything to deal with it. Instead we just put a wall up a little higher and drifted apart. Neither of us expresses emotion. We do not fight, we keep everything bottled inside. I never even expressed to him the pain and hurt I felt. But it came out sideways later when I had my affair. This has been so hard for me to deal with because I consider myself religious and never thought myself capable of such a thing. Low and behold...I am, and not once but twice. Over the past years my husband and I have just drifted apart and rarely spend time together, have gotten different interest. His is hunting, he spends all waking hours there when he is not working. He travels a good bit in his work also. <P>Well, we are both now in counseling and hopefully things will begin to look up. But thank you so much for your input into this board. We really need people like you around!!

Susan,<P>I am a little older than your H. Don't you just love 19 year olds? I have one also and some days they are almost adults and then the next maybe 13. THe drifting apart thing is why I came here. I had to address my role in things and change. My wife and interact very much like you and your H in that deep discussions about things are very difficult and really never done. In many ways were are both private people.<P>I would guess that the interest in hunting has increased with the onset of affairs. Obviously, if you are in an affair you are probably and have not put much into the relationship during this time. Would you consider doing so? Just a question, since all of this pain has been visited on the both of you, what are you afraid of now? WHy not talk. Do you still love him? Are you afraid he does not love you? I'll bet he is very afraid you don't love him. Talk, talk, cry, cry, talk, talk to him not OM. Oh and that love you don't feel for your H. It will come back over time. You had to wipe it out of your mind in order to have the affairs; otherwise you would have gone crazy with the guilt.<P>My message: Go for it with H.<P>Thank you again for your kind words. I see hope for you here. Give it your best shot.<P>God Bless You<P>P.S. If I was in your H's shoes, I'd probably be hunting also. THis is very tough to face. He does love you.

I thought this was so good that I would pull it back to the top.<p>[This message has been edited by Susan (edited October 26, 1999).]

Didn't work, try again!

Hey!! I asked to hear your story only a ZILLION TIMES - an ADHD remark if I ever heard one - and I'm so happy to read this... I have always been very interested in your story, JL. <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Nobody knows what you want except you, and nobody will be as sorry as you if you don't get it. ~Barry Manilow

NB,<P>I have been outed. Now you know why I don't make any judgements on this board. I am not qualified. In fact I try to avoid judgements entirely. I feel assessments are the best one can do. <P>I wasn't really trying to ignore you. I just didn't feel my story was very germaine to the issues at hand and certainly not very important when compared to what you are dealing with.<P>Hope you are doing better.<P>God Bless<P>JL

I'm doing kinda sorta better...but not well enough to post about... working on it though!<P>Thanks for asking <P>And yes, I felt completely ignored... just like always... oh stop it, I'm kidding!!! <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Nobody knows what you want except you, and nobody will be as sorry as you if you don't get it. ~Barry Manilow

Hi, all,<P>Count me among those who were curious about you, JL - the first post of yours I read, I thought "*wow*, where did HE come from??". <P>You have a real gift for hitting the nail right on the head, and doing it in a way both comprehensible and gentle. Perhaps you don't realize how rare that is! That is why so many here have responded to you. Your wisdom and non-judgemental approach are highly valued. <P>Just out of curiosity - I have to agree wholeheartedly that reading on this site has been an amazing education - I've learned so much - have you found that things are improving now between you and your W? You scared me when you said you had been beginning to think about divorce (or, God forbid, an affair - *shudder* ). Hope all of us numbskulls have persuaded you that that is NOT the answer! <P>I also couldn'thelp responding to a few things on the thread - like Susan, I am both betrayed and betrayer (and "almost 44" )- and boy, do I know about those walls and that distance. I wrestled my wall for years - it was an antagonist I just couldn't seem to vanquish. Both my H DuncanMac & I also tend to be rather private people, and had developed a long-term habit of retreating to our separate corners when stressed-out or irritated... unfortunately, this becomes more & more entrenched over time. Susan, hang in there with the counseling - we found that it really helped us acquire & use the "basic tools" needed in any long term relationship; it also gave us each a lot of self-understanding (i.e. with family issues etc) that we had lacked before. Both very helpful!<P>Those walls were another story... we were both very frustrated with them, & it eventually led to Dunc's affair in late summer '98 (mine was on-&-off over 6 yrs starting in '84). Somehow that blasted the walls to smithereens - go figure...! We feel very grateful now to have made it to the "other side" after 14 yrs of marital troubles. I guess the moral of the story is it ain't over 'til it's over (a tip of the hat to Yogi Berra)! <P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

JL<P>I hope you are not mad at me for digging this up. You seemed to avoid questions when anyone would ask about you. I remember the time I too was so curious. I think it has to do with the fact that you show such wisdom, we just all wonder if you had to go through something similar to us to gain that wisdom. Course, now we all know, you were just born that smart!

Susan, <P>No I don't mind or I wouldn't have posted to you. I just feel that my issues are very tame compared to those on this forum. But years of experience, and yes even some distance from the issues here does every now and then give me a view that may be different. <P>As I posted to you those months ago, you really don't hear things on this forum that you don't know. But sometimes hearing them in a different form hits the button that puts things into place. <P>I hope that you are gradually getting over the withdrawl, although you still work with OM. Do you and your H ever talk about this? Has he forgiven you? I hope so. Please keep it up Susan, I think that your marriage has great promise if you can get through the withdrawl and start talking with you H.<P>Suse,<P>Where is the "blush" icon? I need it. You are much too kind. I have to admit I have become addicted to this site. I open it up in the morning hoping to see that the people who I have following for almost a year have gotten the reconcilliation they seek: SHA, Facing Choices, and many other, but I really want to see Chris make it . <P>You know this really is a place of hope. You and DuncanMac have been one of the prime people to make this so. I do know this; I have learned so much here. It has helped my approach to my marriage. Been working very hard on the communications and see some results. STill work to do though.<P>I always look for your and DuncanMac's posts.You provide such a great perspective for people here. You two have definitely been there, done that and gotten the tee shirt.<P>Thanks for the post.<P>God Bless All of You<P>JL