I sure as hell cant vet to WH, I think he is on another planet. It amazes me that he keeps asking me to give him a chance to show me he is no longer that person who has done all these terrible things and yet he is not convincing me that we should stay together. what about you? do you have a clear idea of what you want to do? or do you vacillate like I do?

I believe you can get a sense of what the other person really wants, and going with that instinct is usually correct. Yes, I do go back and forth with what I want to do...sometimes I think of going by the courthouse and getting the papers, then other times I want to work it out.

It's frustrating, to say the least.

It sounds like your WH is still in a fog over the five-year relationship, but if he is asking for a chance then that's a start and more than what a lot of people get. Going by Plan A, you will, hopefully, start to see more commitment, but I'm tempted to say just take what you can get and go day by day or hour by hour.

Do you think that, today, he is further along than he was, say, last week or last month? Do you think you are seeing progress?

Being patient is pretty hard

I've been thinking about this all evening. There's more I want to say to Northwood. You know this is an EA now... probably. EA's have different forms and are shapeless jello molds... always shifting and shaping. If there is no PA, (after the trip now, has anything new surfaced or is she still on the trip?), you have a better chance of provding some healing presence to your W. You can ease into a discussion by saying you've noticed that you (not her) have been more emotionally distant... and is there anything you can do to make a greater connection...? Blame yourself. The reason is that she is already blaming you for certain things in her head, so blaming yourself will make it easier for you to bond with her and get her to open up. Once she's more open to you, your PLAN A activities will be more easily planted. If she suspects you are trying to trick her, and hurt her, then your Plan A activities will be psychologically blocked by her.

One thing that's true for sure is that your wife is not feeling well. Something deep inside her knows that she's not at her best.

Northwood, there are lots of problems that you'll encounter in life. This is a big one, perhaps as big as if your entire house burned down and you had no fire insurance. Or the foundation is rotting and you have no money for repairs. Sometimes you have to accept hardship and difficulty with gratitude.

No, you can't control your W, but you can bring ease and joy to your life by trying to address problems with a straightforward effort to make repairs. THen if your efforts fail, you will at least have the comfort that you did everything you could.

One last thing... your W may have something more than just an EA. She might have a kind of depression called dysthymia, and she may require a medical treatment to help her feel better. If she doesn't want medications, then don't go down the road of forcing her... or trying to be controlling... but it's something you can put in the back of your mind if she becomes more open, you could recommend some medicine for that medical problem.

Please keep this thread open so we can talk back and forth. I hope you are not hopeless... you are not alone... you have friends here that know the pain only a man can feel when there is an EA or a PA of a wife. SOme people think that the EA's are worse than the PA... surely both at the same time are the worst though.

You're a good dad. You're a good person. You're a good husband. You're a good employee. Sometimes we need to hear these things again and again and again. Put them up on your bathroom mirror and look at them every day!

L2L

I hadn't thought of that avenue, thanks for that!

I did notice that, on the trip to the beach, she was more like her normal self so it was, overall, a nice experience. I did wonder, though, if that was due to the absence of a "third party"....probably likely.

Lacking any proof one way or the other, I lean towards the side of caution, but did notice her mood waned a little once we got back to the real world.

If there is an EA, and I think there was in June and July, I wonder if it is in trouble as we (me and her friends) have all called her out on it, raised that flag, shone a light on the elephant, etc. So I'm sure that she knows that others suspect, and that helps to pull these types of things out of the shadows.

She doesn't text message as often as she did, but her phone and email/computer offer no clues one way or the other. Of course, I'd like to think that I'm in the clear but am smart enough not to.

L2L, she is depressed, that's a certainty. She's been on Cymbalta for about a year, before that was Zoloft. I've spoken to her friends, our counselor, minister and her step-mother about getting her to confirm her prescription with a psychiatrist instead of her family doctor. All say that they'll bring it up so we'll see.

Yesterday evening I asked if she needed her prescriptions refilled...there's a myriad for migraines, thyroid, Cymbalta and birth control. I almost asked why the h are you getting the birth control refilled, but didn't. But I really really wanted to.

So I guess I recognize potential LBs and don't act. I've always been one to think three times before speaking, so guess it's not that hard to do.

Anyways, L2L, thanks for the kind words, I do appreciate it and everyone's input/concern over my little "issue", ha!

We go to counseling at 11:00...hope it goes well, I'm actually kind of nervous.

Forgot to ask...my copy of HNHN comes in today. I'm reading some other books (spiritual mostly and one called Love & Respect that our church group is doing), but wonder how she'll react when she sees the small print on the title..."How to affair-proof your marriage" or something to that effect.

Any suggestions, or just say nothing at all. At this point, I figure I work, have a mortgage, two kids and plenty of bills and can read whatever I want to, but I'd like some suggestions on how to get her to read it as well.

She's not a big reader, tends to start and not finish things, but I'd like to get her on board with the concepts without appearing to force them on her.

You have no right to put your wifes medical treatment to every Tom, Sam and Harry you meet. It is unethical. If your doctor did it, it would be also be illegal.
It can be a HUGE LB, and exposure of your opinion of her medications is not want exposure is about.

She should not have to hide her medical history (or scripts) in her own house.

I fear it is going to be be a cold day --youknwwhere-- before you are ever going to get more info like this from her. OR your acusations could make her STOP taking medications entirely (so she can prove she does not need them)

Are either of these scenarios what you want?


Expose the A. Expose the behavior.

Someone please add a link describing what a DJ is.

Barbiecat, thanks for your input. Perhaps I could clarify that I didn't run to these people shouting "YAHHH! My wife is nuts and y'all HAVE to barage her now!"

Actually, these people are genuinely concerned over her behavior as it has affected their relationships with her. I have been asked, by several, if she is on medication and whether or not this is normal behavior for her. That is, she'll be close to a group of friends and then WHAM no contact, nothing, then full speed again with them. It's the erratic behavior that is being noticed, and it's not hard to see.

My concerns over her well-being are not unfounded. I, obviously, am not in a position to question her about her medications, but others may be. Hence the solicitation from her friends, and their welcome acceptance of it. If I thought otherwise, I wouldn't do it.

Depression is an illness, and the sufferers don't often see things as others do, much like a drug addict or alcoholic, I suppose. I think this is an underlying issue that must be addressed to check it off the list.

I don't believe that a family doctor is necessarily qualified to treat mental health. Sure, they can give you a quick script to get you through a tough time, but long-term treatment, I believe, is best left to those that specialize in that area.

No, neither scenario is what I would want, as these things have to be handled delicately or she would shut down and withdraw. She's smart enough to know that there is an issue, but I believe a second opinion is warranted.

So, I hope that helps to clear things up. I do appreciate getting a second viewpoint, and do thank you for bringing it up.

Oh, what does "DJ" stand for...will have to go through the links again.

EDIT: Disrespectful judgement...got it. So just read the book and, if she's interested, go from there but don't try to suggest it. Right?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3402_disrespect.html

Sure you did. You disguised "case building" for "concern."

You then defend your wrong. By giving me a sermon about depression. Void of any apparent regret.

Missing the point of LB WD's.

You seem very entitled, sir. How does your wife feel about these "solicitations" of other people?

Others can help you better....

Well, I didn't think of it that way up until a few minutes ago, but see now that it would be a gigantic LB for her...making her feel like she was being attacked, that no one understood, a betrayal of confidence.

I just want to help, but don't know how without trying to fix things.

You sound like a capable man, Northwood. Keep forming your opinions and keep doing what you think is right. Your W may have bigger social needs than you and by expressing your concernto others over her overall health, mental health included, you are telegraphing your love and concern for her, and she may very well pick up on that. Sure, it's a delicate balance between overcontrolling paternalistic concern, and your loving Husbandry. You can find the balance. Your wife sounds like she needs you in her life. Let her get to know you even more, put your needs second. Just like paying down that mortgage, it's all interest in the first few years. Then sooner or later you start paying into the balance... little by little. Then one day you own the house. Sure thing is that an EA or PA doesn't start overnight beause you had an argument over the beans or what temperature to cook the turkey. EAs are the result of emotional erosion over years of time (and can be related to depression, migranes, physical ailments, etc.. )

So, you start building it back up, one grain of sand at a time. It might seem like it's too slow and you want results faster. Nothing doing! Built into all of this is your own acceptance of the situation. The more you accept your own deficiencie, the better, and less tortured you will be. You see, you can only control your own behavior. A side effect of good behavior is a loving wife. Not the other way around.

You can count yourself lucky that there's no ative EA or PA... because now, more of her needs are available to be met by you. But if there's an EA, then some of the needs are being met by the OM. If her needs are being met in that other relationship, she'll not really have the same openness to you. Simple human nature. It's much harder for your W to accept instant coffee from you when the OM is offering espresso from Starbucks. A crude analogy but hopefully you get it.

The hardest part for me personally was when I knew it was going on and realized I needed to put back only grains of sand at a time. Still, a year later, I have a deep hatred over the situation and am almost hostile to the point of wanting a D. But spirituality and faith call me to action, action, and more action. Jesus didn't carry that cross made of balsa wood. It was a real, hard, knotty, hardwood cross that burned into his shoulder and cut him. But he moved on... step...by step...by step... and now we have Salvation.

Take your steps... grains of sand at a time... reinforce your intention to love her forever to the best of your ability, regardless of her actions. Our vocation as husbands come as an assignment from God, and he said we would have the opportunity for imitating Him if we wanted to. The fact that you have this hardship is plenty evidence that you are being like Christ. You are a pretty good role model! But He never said it would be easy. Sure, he said his yoke was light, and compared to other problems you could have, this one is, in fact relatively light. Let's pray together that your stamina holds up even while you may feel angry over SF, and your own needs not being fulfilled. Maybe sometimes you feel like a one armed paper hanger, unable to continue even one more step. But you can.

I wouldn't trade problems with you even while my own issues are overwhelming and I feel like I'm drowning at times. But I will go my death fighting for this marriage. And I'm truly glad I don't have to visit custody court hearings, lawyers for property disputes, the impact of an EA on the kids.

As for your question about the book about Affair proofing your marriage. I think you should not announce your wish to share the book (IMO). Let her find it if she wants, hide nothing, but let it be your continued intention to work on yourself, getting the book for your own development and to enable you to be a better husband. Your wife sounds like a capable woman and she can take her own steps when it's time, and can buy her own books. It's too soon to suggest changes or improvements for her to make, I think. Instead just keep looking for grains of sand to reverse the emotional erosion.

Medications will help her, and it's another thing to be grateful for. I don't really think the psychiatrist is all that important at this time - IMO. Cymbalta is a good drug but is a hard drug to change from - lots of side effects to discontinue that one. If she has migranes and etc., it can help with those pains as well. My W tried the cymbalta but it never worked. Now she has some imetrex for occaisional use and the citalopram. If she's in physical pain then it will be harder for her to meet your EN's. Read a book on being the husband of someone with chronic pain. Funny thing is, when I do more of the cooking and the cleaning, her migranes are less bad... and she feels that I am more invested in the relationship. Plus I get to try out new recipies!

Like many views and opinions on this board you will quickly learn who you want to learn from and who to ignore. Lots of Monday morning quarterbacks on this site, and plenty of back seat drivers. Stick with the positive, solution focused people and don't get distracted by the negativism and critical accusations. Your job is hard enough without feeling attacked by jeering crowds.

No one knows your situation better than you.

"Amazing how heavy a grain of sand can seem sometimes!!"

-Keep paying down on that emotional mortgage!!

-And learn to make espresso drinks!

L2L

--------------------------
H (me) 43
W 41
EA 2009
S - 13
D- 9
S- 3

Thanks, L2L.

I'm probably bugging Him to death, but it is a measure of having the strength to withstand things. And, yep, that little grain of sand sure is heavy sometimes!

The counselor meeting went ok, she talked with me and W separately which, I think, is ideal for now as there are some things that neither of us feel quite safe saying in front of the other.

She (counselor) did tell me that most of her questions were met with "I don't know" which is no real surprise. But, she found it encouraging that W is at least talking, so it's step-by-step for now. W meets with her next Tuesday, then we go together on Thursday.

All-in-all, I'd say things are slightly better than they were, say, two weeks ago, so I guess that's a good thing. Patience sure is hard, though.

Oh, and that's my plan for the book--she's free to take an interest but I won't propose it.

just checking in, Northwood. How are things lately?

Northwood, I didn't read every word of your thread, so maybe someone covered this, but I'm going to say it anyway.

Cymbalta is an SSRI (selective seratonin reuptake inhibitor) anti-depressant.

One of the most common side effects of ALL SSRI's is an inability to reach orgasm. There is a spectrum on how much people can enjoy SF while on SSRI's.

SF had always been very achievable for me. Then I took various SSRI's for many years for severe clinical depression. I tried ALL of them (literally) in all combinations and all dosages off and on for well over a decade -- I like SF, and fought giving it up.

Regardless of the brand or dosage of SSRI's, it was uniform across the board -- I was dead from the waist down. I had no sexual feelings or response of any kind. I had SF with my H to keep him happy, but I felt NOTHING.

Anecdotally, I will tell you that the shut down in sexual responsiveness for women I know who have this side effect is complete and total. Men don't seem to have the same absolute cut off response.

I apologize if this seems too intrusive, but it jumped out at me. I fear that you and your W may not have been briefed on this side effect by the prescribing doctor and are looking at each other as the issue rather than a biological response to a pharmaceutical.

There are other medical options that don't have this side effect. It took me 10 years and a really good doc to find out what my real medical issue is. Don't give up.

Again, I apologize if this seems intrusive but I can't imagine how confusing it might be if you and your W were unaware of this possible side effect.

Hardly intrusive, thanks for passing on what you've learned from taking these medications. I've suspected that it may be contributing, but have no idea at all how to broach such a subject. I don't think there is a way, really.

To anyone outside looking in, everything is normal and I can see an improvement over a few weeks ago. Conversation is more relaxed, natural and I think we're actually enjoying spending time with each other--when possible with us both working and two kids. UA time is kind of hard to achieve, though, and old habits are hard to break.

For example, for the past three years we'll get home from work around 5:00, supper by 5:30, youngest gets bath and bed around 6:30, oldest in bed by 7:45 and then we go to bed around 9:00. Honestly, after each day, we don't usually sit down until around 8:00 so spending quality time gets easy to forget how to do when you're so drained. You know? But I'm working on it, just kind of wish that she would consciously do so as well.

I've been working really hard to meet her most important EN's (likely Conversation then Affection with a bit of Admiration) and have noticed a difference...we're laughing more and I think we're both enjoying life a little more.

Thing is, I've found that I'm not doing it to manipulate her into staying in the marriage; rather, that I actually enjoy doing it and wonder what the h took me so long to see that. Of course, I have times where it's difficult to give give give when my EN's are unmet (physical affection, SF). Those just are NOT things that she finds important at this time. Sometimes it really bothers me, sometimes love is unconditional--guess it depends on the phase of the moon, ha ha.

I'm trying, though, and have a inkling that she may be as well.

I could analyze this thing to death, but thanks, y'all, for checking in on me!

Northwood, every spouse should know what medications their spouse is on in case of emergency because that is one of the first question the EMT's will ask. You could use that as a conversation opener and tell your W that you Googled Cymbalta for that reason and this side effect came up and you wondered if she was aware of it.

You seemed to suggest that she is a bit defensive as you are enlisting others to try to get her to have her prescription vetted by a psychiatrist which is an EXCELLENT idea if she is not responding to the anti-depressants.

IMO, if your W is feeling defensive, ashamed or misunderstood about her depression, you have a great opportunity here to make some serious $LB deposits by showing understanding and empathy.

OK, I am going to get on my soapbox here. Be warned.

Many people do not understand mental illness, and especially depression, to be just that: an illness. It is not a character flaw, it is not a sign of weak moral fiber or laziness, and it is not the patient's fault.

Like many illnesses, depression has organic and environmental roots. Like many illnesses, it can take time and experimentation to get the right combination of medications and lifestyle to get it under control. Like many illnesses, it's severity and duration can be impacted by the patient's interior and exterior environment. And, like many illnesses, it can in fact be managed and even cured.

I have high blood pressure which is treated with medication. My hypertension is as a result of a hereditary predisposition, an organic cause. Its onset was associated with my third pregnancy, the trigger. If I gain weight, don't exercise, smoke and lead a stressful life, my hypertension will get worse, environmental factors. Those environmental factors may require me to change or add to my medication. If I change some of those environmental factors, I am less likely to need more or different medication even though the organic causes will still be present.

Depression is no different. It has an organic basis which relates to the interaction of different brain chemicals. A traumatic event or series of events can trigger it, or it may manifest on its own for no apparent good reason. Environmental factors can exacerbate its severity and duration.

I can't tell that I have hypertension. I need a doctor to do the proper testing to determine that and monitor my condition to ensure that the medication prescribed is doing its job. My only obligation is to seek medical care and follow the doctor's recommendation.

Depression is no different. The depressed person is often unable to see that they are ill. They need a doctor to evaluate them, treat them, and monitor their condition to ensure that the medication is doing its job. The patient's only obligation is to seek medical care and follow the doctor's recommendations.

So you see, there should be no shame involved. The sick person should only feel shame if he or she refuses to seek the proper medical care and follow the doctor's recommendations.

OK, off soapbox.

I suggest you take some time to really educate yourself about depression and then go to your W and explain that you care for her so deeply that you have done the following 17 things to learn about her condition, tell her what you have learned, and then be her warrior to get her the proper treatment because if she really is depressed, she has zero energy to take care of herself -- it's kind of like having a slight flu all the time. EVERYTHING is a huge effort. You should communicate to her that you all together are going to vanquish the depression demon from your lives and ride off into the sunset to a life of energy and joy.

There is not another person on the planet who can do that for her, and certainly not a potential AP. You are it.

I feel quite passionately about this because for years I begged my H to learn about my depression but he never would. H treated me like I was being self indulgent until I became suicidal. If he had been behind me in my fight, I think I would have gotten better quicker because he could have supported me in catching habits of thought that exacerbated the illness instead of, inadvertently or not, adding to or validating the negative messages I was sending myself. My gratitude would have been unending. Instead, I resented him deeply for many years for not taking the time to learn.

My favorite of about a million books I read on the subject is "Undoing Depression". It changed my life.

It's a fight, but it is winnable, particularly if you support her.

And touch and kiss your W with no expectations of SF. Kiss her hello in the evening, good night, and good morning. Hold her hand in the car, rub her shoulders while she's cooking, scratch her back when she's going to sleep. It's so simple.

If she resists I can almost guarantee you it is because affection and SF are firmly linked in her mind so she thinks you are manipulating her to get SF. Those two things need to get disconnected in her mind for a while, but when they do, she will likely be far more affectionate with you and then you have something to work with.

Why is it H's don't kiss their wives after M? It is a universal complaint amongst married women I know.

Last thing: b/c pills can trigger depression in some women. I tried them numerous times, and fortunately had a gyno who was aware of that, put it together from my lethargic, hopeless demeanor, and told me to "let myself up" as there are some women who just can't take them.

Good luck -- I hope you run through this opening.

Thanks, saddest, I think we're on the same page. She doesn't know that I had enlisted the aid of others regarding the prescription, but I had thought of it as an intervention, of sorts. Like you, I think the only shameful thing would be to ignore it.

She does acknowledge the depression, multiple physicians and two counselors have done so as well, so at least she knows what the enemy is. I think that now she is a bit complacent with medical treatment--kind of "Hey, I'm taking medicine, that should be working but I'm still not happy". So there's probably multiple issues at work and they all feed off each other.

I'm just trying to knock them out one at a time, and the Cymbalta is on my list, among others.

You are right, she does interpret physical contact as a prelude to SF. Since I know where it is *not* going, I have been doing the minor things that you mentioned-- touch on the shoulder, pat on the back, hug, etc. She doesn't cringe away, which I guess is a good thing, but does not reciprocate or initiate--something she used to do. It'd mean the world if she did, but I'm trying to be patient here. What's that saying, "I want patience and I want it now!"

I've been reading up on depression and see that many struggle with this. It's cavalier to say, but she's not as bad as some that fight it--she doesn't lay in bed all day or cry endlessly, so I guess that's a plus. But it's still there, in whatever form, and must be addressed.

You're right, I think that everyday life contributes a great deal to whatever chemical thing is going on inside. Since I cannot change the inside, I'm making every effort to reduce the outside stresses and have seen positive results in that regard.

She went to the IC last Tuesday, said they spent the whole time talking about her mother (who divorced her father when she was 3 or so, the father got full custody back in the 1970s so you know that was unusual). She apparently got a lot out of the discussion, and asked if she could go that Thursday by herself as we had scheduled it as a joint session. Our prior joint sessions had been us taking turns talking separately with the counselor, which is fine with me at this point.

I said that was fine, but told her I did want to talk to the counselor as well and would schedule another appointment. She laughed and said "Well you're not the one that's crazy! Ha Ha" Also that she thought she was "almost there" and then wanted us to both go, that the counselor told me to "hang in there." Or something like that. I told her she wasn't crazy and that was the end of it--a lighthearted conversation.

I try not to read much into anything anymore, don't want to get my hopes up. Sadly, keeping low expectations kind of helps sometimes.

So I set up an appointment for next Tuesday by myself, maybe I can get some feedback. Dunno.

You said

Why is it H's don't kiss their wives after M? It is a universal complaint amongst married women I know.

Guilty as charged, and her thinking is that now, when I do want to be that way, she asks Well you didn't before so why now? Well I want to now so she's just going to have to get used to it, ha ha.

But anyways, saddest, thanks for your comments, you made a lot of good points and the perspective from the "other side" is always nice. We haven't really talked about depression, though I want to, but I'm scared she'll think I'm trying to "fix" her and, by trying to fix her, that I am saying to her that she is too weak or incapable of helping herself. Also she thinks that it isn't "just" the depression, that there's no quick fix or magic solution. She's told me several times in the past that she gets irritated when I try to fix her, so I back off, but it's hard to do.

Thoughts on a approach or did you ever feel the same way?

SW,

Why is it H's don't kiss their wives after M? It is a universal complaint amongst married women I know.

Not always on the H, I asked my wife to kiss me for 10 minutes without break for my birthday a month ago, I actually wanted nothing else, she has yet to deliver...

God Bless
Gamma

Well then Gamma, she deserves some 2x4's! (where is that icon anyway? Do you have to graduate to get it?)

Northwood, it's really very simple, but oh so hard.

Fix=I am going to tell you what to do to fix YOUR problem since YOUR problem is bothering me.
Subtext=you are not bright, competent, or motivated enough to figure it out for yourself and I find it irritating that I am having to deal with this.
Impact= HUGE disrespectful judgement lovebuster. Whatever you are thinking, multiply it by 100.
Result: Withdrawal from sharing problems, isolation and resentment.

Help=we have a challenge and I have some thoughts on how to meet it and I want and value your input on what we should do.
Subtext=I think you are a competent, intelligent, motivated person whose thoughts and opinions I value and I care deeply about you and your well being and our M.
Impact=contribution to the $LB for making her feel valued.
Result=drawing closer, sharing more, feeling safe with you.

I HATE gratuitous criticism under the guise of being helpful and being told what to do with a fiery passion. You just can't imagine.

I LOVE solving problems. I've told me kids from a wee age that life is a series of problems to be solved and that is a very good thing as it keeps us engaged and moving forward. Throw 49 kinds of fits and blame everyone under the sun, including the evil math teacher who must have taken the worksheet out of your backpack, and guess what? At the end you still don't have your math sheet. What are we going to do to solve the problem -- pull out the yellow pad and let's start making a list.

Any problem your W has is by definition your problem too as you are married -- that's the beauty and the beastliness of marriage.

You want to HELP her solve her problem with depression. You are doing a very, very good thing reducing external stressors and, hopefully, NOT pointing out what a very, very good thing you are doing. She needs energy to work her way through her illness. Her energy is a resource of your M, and the best use of that resource right now is to devote it to getting better.

Maybe you could start by sharing a problem you are having unrelated to your home life and getting her input on it -- something with a co-worker, friend or family member. She'll feel SO much safer talking about her issues if you lead the way with something relatively benign and not threatening, invite her in to help you solve it, listen to her, validate her by repeating back what she says, and thank her for her insightful comments. Then report back to her on how it turned out. It doesn't have to be a big deal issue -- the car mechanic is fleecing you, the IT guys in the office aren't doing their job, you admin has missed 6 days in the last month for specious reasons.

Just make sure whatever it is is NOT something that she might actually be called upon to DO anything about. It needs to be uniquely your issue and you are asking her because you value her opinion, and for no other reason.

If you haven't read it yet, read Dr. Hartley's article on why wives leave their husbands. It is so dead on I can't believe a man wrote it. In effect, I am recommending that you invite her into one of the closed off rooms in your house.

I'm going to be brutally honest on the kissing issue. My OM was a professional philanderer. To his credit, he never pretended to be anything else (I did all the pretending in the relationship, if you can call it that.) I see no reason why the H's on MB shouldn't get the benefit of my experience because he absolutely knew how to charm.

A few weeks after NC, I sat down to write down the things that I found most appealing about OM with a view towards creating that in my M. Number one on the list was that every time OM saw me, he looked me in the eye, smiled, and then he gave me a kiss. No big dramatic movie kiss-- just a peck on the lips with a hand on my shoulder. But it was "hi, I'm very pleased to see you, you are attractive to me, and for anyone who is watching, she is mine." And when we parted, he always did the same. 100% of the time.

Such a small thing, but try it. Acknowledging your W is there when you walk in the door in the evening, looking her in the eye, and signaling that you think she is cute is a huge message.

One caveat -- this ritual can and should be accomplished without interrupting her activity or train of thought. You are doing this purely for HER, not because you want her to stop and give you attention.

Follow that ritual up with "how can I help you" and you will be depositing some $LB.

It may not be commented on, but it will not go unnoticed.

Absolutely awesome input that you just gave me...the definitions are spot on, just what I needed but couldn't put my finger on.

Would write more, but our son is in the bath and just turned the shower on without pulling the shower curtain...