A little background...

Me age 33
Wife age 32
Married ten years
Two kids, ages four and two

About a month ago, W says she is going to go see a counselor because of the following concerns:

1. I'm not where I want to be in live, career-wise
2. I don't feel like we have any connection anymore, spiritually, emotionally or conversation-wise, and I don't feel like I get any encouragement.
3. I'm not sure if I want to stay married.

Well, of course this hit me like a bombshell. She has struggled with her job, it doesn't pay much and money is always tight. We have two kids, so they pretty much monopolize our time leaving, perhaps, one hour a day for UA but we don't take advantage of even that. Sound familiar?

She's been on Cymbalta for "anti-anxiety" (I say anti-depression) and says that she doesn't feel attracted to me anymore. That we're just friends, roomates, passing through.

Over the last week, we've talked more about life, spiritual matters, what we want out of life. She asked how do we "reconnect", i.e. fall in love again I guess. I'm working on that, and think she may be, too, but sometimes feel it is a one-way street.

Though that isn't much background, here's the main point of my post. I looked at her email account, and see two messages that survived deletion. They are to a 37yo co-worker, who I believe is married:

Sunday 6/6/10 10:04 pm
From W to OM
Subject: the usual time and place
Message: 8:30 ish you make the coffee and Ill bring the bull$hit

Tuesday 7/20/10 8:01 pm
From W to OM
Subject: (blank)
Message: you there?
Reply: I am. Sorry!!

Another email, from a few weeks ago, was him sending her his flight interary for a two-week trip to Kiev. Obviously, she wasn't going, but why send something like that to her personal gmail account rather than her work email?

She's mentioned that, after dropping the kids off at school, she'll go to a coffee shop and sit, read Devotionals. Work doesn't really start until around 9:00 so there's time.

Does this sound like the makings of an EA? She did have a PA back in 2002, but we went to counseling and things were good for some time. But I guess you kind of forget and go back to the same-old-same-old.

I WANT this marriage to work, and believe she is in the "I'd like to see if it will work" phase, but am certain that any progress will be hindered if someone else is in the picture.

I think I know the answer, yes, this is an EA (at least?). She text messages a lot, but the one time I got a look at the phone there were no deleted (sent) messages to read.

I asked her last night if she wanted to go to joint counseling, she said yes. She's gone out of town until Tuesday to see some old friends in Atlanta at the recommendation of her therapist. She said she needed a break...ok, I guess I can see that.

Anyways, I'm sorry that this is so rambling. I've just had my world turned upside down and writing is a bit cathartic. Could use some thoughts, suggestions, words of wisdom, etc.

What she's saying just sounds like the typical WS stuff that is posted all over this place, and brings to mind exact conversations that we had back in 2002 when she had an affair. We lived in a different state then, so it's not the same guy.

EDIT: Please advise if this post is in the wrong forum.

North, your in the right forum. No doubt it's at least am EA. I'd start snooping, especially about the trip to Atlanta. If her IC is telling her to get away in order to fix your marriage, she needs to get a new IC. Distance ain't gonna help. The vets should be on here to help you out soon. Listen to them.

Thanks, Lookin. The trip to Atlanta had me suspicious, but the OM's flight itinerary (courtesy W's email) showed him leaving here Saturday, 40-minute layover in Atlanta, and then to Kiev...so no time in my book.

She's going to visit several old girlfriends that we knew while there. Nothing about it seems suspicious, but the emails definitely got me going.

She actually said she didn't think the IC was a good fit, had only had two sessions, but was thinking of discontinuing seeing her.

You're 100% right...distance isn't going to help. A week ago, I suggested a trip, getaway, etc. She said she wanted to work on herself right now before working on the marriage. Typical fog BS if you ask me. Yesterday, then, she said a day trip might be nice, but wouldn't really commit beyond saying that the concept was worth considering.

Compared to the 2002 fog, I'd say this is a partly-cloudy fog versus a full-blown one, but that doesn't help much.

I still get a hug and kiss goodnight, she says she isn't "ready" for anything beyond that, so maybe she's having doubts about this OM? Dunno. I think I could rationalize anything at this point.

My friend, you�re fooling yourself if you think this is simply an EA. When you get an email that says, �the usual place?�, that indicates that they meet regularly.

Her distance from you says a lot as well.

My question to you is this:

Why would you possibly want to stay married to a serial cheater if this is indeed her second betrayal? Do you not feel you can do better?

Please don�t tell me that you love her as the answer. I loved my toxic and psycho ex fianc� but am very glad I never married her. Love isn�t enough.

So by coincidence they are both going to be in Atlanta without spouses on Saturday? What are the odds?

It�s not a stretch for him to have some kind of problem making his connection out of Atlanta and having to re-book a flight on Sunday. His company gets to pay for any fees. This is easy stuff for waywards.

This stinks of a setup.

If it is not already a PA it will be by Saturday night.

Can you get the info on OMs wife?

Two very good responses, thanks guys. I honestly don't know if I have the mental strength to form a reply. Make sense?

Just got a text from her with a phone number for a marriage counselor that the neighbors recommended. Crap, is everyone seeing one these days? She wants to make an appointment.

She is likely using the marriage counselor as the standard "I tried to make the marriage" work excuse.

Get yourself a keylogger for the computer, but even more important get a SIM card reader that will let you see all the deleted text messages! Put a GPS on her car -- then you can see if she's really at the coffee shop reading devotionals. HA!

seems to me anyway that she wants to see a marriage counselor just to say..."we tried it...now I want out"...

fine, make an appointment, but go in with the clear intentions that what your marriage needs is a marriage coach...not some feel good counselor that only wants to discuss "feelings" and BS...Go in with the intent to get a clear plan of how you two are going to restore romantic love...take bits and pieces of the MB program and try to implement them, like they're your own...

if she wants out, she's going to have to earn her way out...

in the mean time snoop like crazy...go into work late one morning and follow her, see what she's up to...bust them together and expose it to the world, if that's the case...

if she is having an affair, it needs to be busted up or no progress will be made...

I've been online (and here) reading up on how to do that. Good advice.

Agreed 100%. Actually, she said "seeing if we can get back the romantic life" was a reason for the counselor.

It's like hearing one thing and seeing the other. I know you guys have seen all this before.

You are getting a hug and a kiss goodnight, but she is not ready for anything beyond that....translation....She is remaining true to her affair partner. This is nowhere near 'having doubts about her OM.

Go to Atlanta with her.

She is feeding you a line so that she can go see him.

Go with her. There is no real reason for her to pitch a fit about you going except that it foils her OM plans.

Go with her.

She dropped the kids off at her parents and left this morning. Good plan, though.

FYI, we're in Mississippi, so it's a six hour drive.

Use this time away to snoop. Look at phone records, her drawers in the bedroom, clothes, purse, whatever. Look for proof of the affair.

Guess at her passwords. Odds are it's something easy.

Again, would you want to save things? If so, why?

If you're kid free, hit the road pal...NOW...if you know where she's staying...be there tonight, by midnight...

When I put myself in your place with the facts that you know, there is no way that I would let her go off to Atlanta alone. If it were my hubby doing what your wife is doing, I would be on my way to Atlanta right now. In fact, I would have been in the car with him when he left for Atlanta.

I just don't get this hesitancy.

Yep.

Is she already in Atlanta? answered

Did she drive or fly? answered

Do you have the contact numbers of the friends she is staying with?

Do you have friends in Atlanta?

There is absolutely no conceivable work related reason he would send his travel itinerary to her personal email account. This is a planned hook-up and it�s not for 40 minutes. She can�t even get on the concourse without a ticket.

Did she bring any special lingerie with her? Are there any odd purchases on the credit card the past couple weeks? Snoop.

You have enough evidence already to at least talk to the HR person at their company and express your concerns. Inappropriate late night emails. Inappropriate before work meetings. Now they just coincidentally show up in Atlanta at the same time?

Their company will be highly suspicious if he breaks his itinerary and has a stay in Atlanta after you talk to them and suggest the possibility. And any fees will be on their dime. Companies generally don�t do much about adultery unless it�s proven that they pay for it.

North,
I agree with all on the Atlanta deal. You said his itinerary puts him in Atlanta on a 40 minute layover. Where is he leaving from initially? If your W is leaving now or has already left for Atlanta, it's easy to put 2&2 together. He's leaving a day or two early would be my suspicion. Hell they may even be driving down there together. I know it sucks to hear but your fighting for your marriage. You can't leave any stones unturned!

I don't either. In shock, perhaps? I found the emails this morning and posted here right after.

I know the names/contact info of the women she said that she's going to see. Any suggestions on how to confirm if they know she's coming?

Another poster asked (1) if I wanted to save this and (2) why? The answer to the first is yes, but, as to the second, I don't know "why" or am just scared to admit the "why" or don't know why I don't know why. I imagine y'all would want to slap some sense into me. I'm about four hours into learning of a possible affair, guess my mind just hasn't figured out what to do with the info.

The flight was from Jackson, MS to Atlanta, GA on 7/24 arriving at 10-something in the morning and departing about 45-minutes later.

Track down the OM's wife and get prepared for a 6-hour drive.

1. Yes, I could get in touch with the people that she says she's staying with.

2. No, I don't know anyone over there that is still there.

3. I didn't see her pack, but did check the credit cards and bank account. Nothing suspicious.

4. Their company is maybe a handful of people. I'm not entirely sure, but believe he runs it. She is actually employed by a different non-profit, but their two agencies get a grant by "sharing" employees, so that's why she's at their office.

Another question, how do I get email updates when someone replies to this thread? I believe a lot of forums offer that, but I'm just not seeing it.

Northwood,

go up to where you can see "topic Option" (beside new topic), click on it, then click on 'add topic to watched topics'

Then click on "my stuff", scroll down to watch list and click on watched topics. You should be able to set it to 'email me' from there, although it often seems to set to email by default.

You are getting good advice. I would act on it as soon as possible.

I said the same kind of things your wife said four years ago. And I wanted time for "me." And I pulled away in favor of "girl friends." And I was attracted to a coworker who eventually had a full-blown affair with.

I don't want to alarm you, but it sounds just like I did. I would snoop. And I would call these friends immediately. Say that there is something you can't find or that you left something in the car or something. Don't let her know you have suspicions because she'll just start working on a story.

I agree that driving straight to where she is headed is a good move. Act now. If she is just toying with this thing and hasn't gone all in yet...it would be good to stop it before it gets there.

And yeah, this therapist of hers is not good. How long has she been taking Cymbalta, btw?

She was on Zoloft for about a year, then went to a psychiatrist who prescribed the Cymbalta about a year ago. She said the original dosage was terrible, now refers to the psych as a quack, and is getting the prescription (adjusted dosage) from her general practitioner (sp?). I don't know how qualified a family doctor is to do that. One thing at a time, right?

The plan for Atlanta was to spend the night with a family friend tonight, person #2 on Friday and Saturday, person #3 on Sunday and person #4 on Monday. Atlanta's a large town, and these friends are easily a 40-minute drive from each other.

I'm not driving to Atlanta, I don't even know where I would go to find out anything. I really really appreciate the ideas, though and know that I'm sounding like a wimp on this.

I've had time to go through her laptop at home, nothing found. Ditto bank accounts and, other than what I've posted, nothing from email. I don't have access to her cell phone, it's a work phone, but I did try to register and login on the AT&T website. No dice, you have to have the account number which I have no way of obtaining.

Since learning of this this morning, I've come to these conclusions:

1. I'll probably get really pi$$ed off about this tonight when I cannot sleep.

2. I really just want to ask her if she's cheating on me. Screw this wondering, questioning, etc. etc. etc.

3. Is #2 above best done now, over the phone, when I think that I'm not strong or

4. Better left for in person on Tuesday?

The idea about calling the friends is a good one, that is, asking where something is around the house. I don't have phone numbers (thought I did) but have their info from wife's facebook thing. I did send a message to one of them who just had a baby...told her congratulations and to try not to let the W spend too much money this weekend.

No response yet, but think that is a start.

So does wanting to completely shutdown and hide under a pillow seem a normal reaction to this kind of thing? I think it is, am just waiting for the initial thud to wear off so that I can think a little clearer.

NW,

Also download and run an "UNDELETE" program on your wifes laptop, when a computer "deletes" a file, the data is not erased but just "forgotten".

This is good to find things like us_having_sex.JPG etc.

God Bless
Gamma

Thanks, will look for a program like that.

Any suggestions?

http://ntfsundelete.com/

Not sure how good this one is, did a quick search and it seems ok.

I've used these in the past and they were very effective to see what the kids were looking at on the internet.

Gamma

Just tried it it looks like it works well
Download NTFS Undelete (Windows installer) you will see this link for windows

Thanks for the links, I appreciate it. Found one and it pulled 15,000 files...wow.

Nothing much, internet explorer temp files, cookies, etc.

Was really hoping it would pull out deleted gmail emails, but, from what I've read, once they're gone, they're gone.

did you use search, advanced search and narrow down by date?

Assume some communications in the last few days, possibly a *.jpg or *.JPEG image

NW,

The drive to Atlanta could end up being fruitless. Don't ask right now, since she might go further underground in her affair and hide things more.

Your reaction is also completely normal. Saving your marriage is your decision to make, but a serial cheater will break your heart over and over and simply lead you to a premature death. Unless you're willing to stand your ground and draw massive boundaries which will force her to change, then you will simply be doing nothing and setting yourself up for future heartbreak.

People here will support you no matter what you decide to do, but the one thing you MUST keep in mind is that you deserve better than to be cheated on and have NOTHING to fear from her anger. The anger of a wayward is mostly like the bark of a dog. Lots of noise, but ultimately a bluff.

What you need to do right now is plan your butt off and be ready.

Snoop the way you are. Gather your evidence. Hire a PI if you can afford it.

There really is no reason for him to send her his itenirary for a 40 minute layover unless he was planning on staying longer.

Put a keylogger on your computer, which will likely lead you to the answers you seek.

What you need to keep first and foremost on your mind right now is that women don't respect wimps. They do respect cool calm and collected men. Think James Bond when you're feeling weak.

As far as sleep, take something to help. Ambien worked for me.

Sorry you're going through this.

Thanks for the kind words, helpthelostdads.

Managed to eat something, took willpower just to chew. I think it's too soon for me to confront, I need to be in a better frame of mind.

Also picked up a pack of smokes, not sure how I talked myself into that after over a year. Great.

Do not ask her about an A until you have something concrete. She will say no, cry because you are mean and don't trust her, tell you that THAT is the kind of thing that makes her want to be alone, etc. Then she will go and hide anything that might give it away. I am not bashing your wife, just telling you what waywards do.

Agreed. I spent most of the day thinking about what I would say, etc. She called about an hour ago, said she had gotten there just fine.

She asked if I'd made an appointment for the joint counselor. I said no, they have a waiting list and someone will call me back in 7-10 days to schedule something.

We agreed that something sooner was better, and she recommended asking our minister if he had any recommendations. I said that was fine, let's see what he says. I want to get somewhere next week, and would really prefer to broach this subject with her in a "safe" environment where she cannot storm out of the house or slam down the phone.

We'll see what tomorrow brings.

I can relate to the smokes thing. Same with the lack of apetite.

Be strong. You will get through this.

I know it seems like the end of the world. It isn't. Believe me.

Keep your chin up, be proud. Be a man. Deal with the shock, but hold your head high, come up with a plan, and be ready.

I hope, really, really hope, that we're all wrong and that this is nothing more than an over active imagination. I have yet to see such a thing, though, based on what you've described. Just be ready for the worst.

No real update, but wondered if anyone had tried this:

http://www.mobilespytool.com/spy_features.html

Please update us. How are you doing?

Her friends have been talking to her, all are concerned about what is going on. They tell me that she says she just isn't happy, but has nothing to be unhappy about. I don't think there is an affair going on, she denied it to her friends but admits that she flirts....hmmmmm...not cool.

She says she wants to know how to, basically, fall in love again. I used cues from this site and she agreed it sounds reasonable. I'm hopeful in this regard, but (you knew there was a 'but' coming) this whole lack of SF is really hard on me.

Her friends tell me that she says she doesn't want sexual anything and purposely closed that door as she doesn't feel connected anymore. I don't know.

But in all other regards, she acts fairly normal, is friendly, smiles, talks, etc. but physical contact is just not there unless I initiate it (hug, nothing more). It's just not one of her EN's, period.

Thursday (yesterday) she decided we should all rent a beach house for this weekend through Wednesday. So we're leaving in the morning with two kids for a 5+ hour drive. I don't know what to think and am almost scared to ask. Make sense?

We (me and her friends) think that she is suffering from depression...hence the roller coaster emotions. She goes from friends to friends, with a whole lot of contact, visits, etc. to zero contact. Constant zero to sixty to zero and a lot of people are concerned.

She's on Cymbalta, has been for about a year, but I need to convince her to see a psychiatrist for a proper diagnosis and to, hopefully, get her something that helps her. Now, how that subject is to be broached may be tricky, we'll see, but I don't think that the current prescription is doing any good. She, of course, doesn't think that anything is wrong there, but I tend to think that sick people don't often realize that they are sick.

We did go to our first joint counseling on Wednesday. It went ok, I guess, and I like the lady that we spoke with. She spoke with both of us at first, then her, then me and then a few minutes before we left. I told her (the counselor) of my suspicion of an EA, and she said my wife had not mentioned it, but she would definitely pursue it and I got a good feeling for her. We go back August 11, the counselor is out next week.

So that's it in a nutshell, but the consensus is that there is some depression there but I'm still on the fence as far as an affair goes. I did ask her if she was having one, "no" of course, but I really needed to address that elephant in the room.

Oh, she had a few migraines the past month or so, but none lately. I think it's stress-induced, all the more reason to see a real mental-health professional instead of the family doctor for the anti-depressant medications.

I know this is rambling, thoughts, suggestions, comments? We're leaving in the morning for the beach. Though my mind may not be there 100%, it'll be there for our kids as I really am trying to shelter them from all of this. They are five and two, but I think our oldest is starting to sense something as he's really been attached to me lately and asked why "mommy always has headaches" or "mommy looks tired." Breaks my heart.

Stay vigilant. Her behavior is still very suspicious. She sounds fogged out and looking for an out. Be wary of the "I went to counseling and tried, it just isn't going to work" ploy.

I would put a voice recorder in her car. That will catch her calling OM if she is doing so. It's cheap and you'll be able to hear the truth. Forgive me if you've already tried this, but you need to get to the bottom of it.

Odds are high she's simply underground more.

For your trip, be yourself. Act as if all is good. But don't be clingy, needy, or whiny. Think James Bond. Be cool.

Don't ask about how she's doing. Don't ask if she loves you. Treat it as if you were going on a trip with a woman you just met and are on a date with.

Well we got back from the beach, thought I'd write some--sorry for not updating, and I mean no offense, but this site is kind of a reminder of bad things, you know? Sometimes it's easier to just stick your head in the sand. But I cannot do that.

The trip was good, nice house on the beach with a pool--the kids had an absolute blast and are ready to go back.

My wife was actually pleasant the entire time, kind of like how good friends are with the exception of that BIG non-SF elephant that keeps trampling around the room.

Taking the previous poster's advice, I was a perfect gentleman and made a point to "act" like nothing was wrong as I didn't want to put a damper on things and, more importantly, not let our kids know that something was amiss. They're 2 and 5, so they're generally happy in their childhood cocoon when they aren't fighting with each other.

W had a headache one evening and went to lay down, so I sat with her with a hot cloth on her forehead for about an hour or so. I think she appreciated it but, then, she didn't really act like anything was wrong to begin with so who the h knows.

One evening when were sitting on the deck (it was covered), I had a lewd thought (to myself) about the privacy that it afforded and accidentally laughed to myself. She asked what was so funny, I dismissed it but she pressed the issue so I told her what I was thinking. Something along the lines of "under better circumstances, this sure would be a nice place to...". It, of course, killed the mood, but she did give me a hug and say she just wasn't there yet.

Oops.

So that's been all the marriage discussion that we've had. We go to counseling tomorrow so I hope to get some talk-time then.

Her (our) friends have taken her out for supper a few times since then, and they tell me that they don't think she's having an affair, but are genuinely concerned. It's nice to know who you can count on, I guess.

Me, I'm lonely and sad. Sure, the kids and friends help but there's that something missing. Sure I get a "I love you" and kiss and hug goodnight, but I am so damned mad that I almost resent it.

Seriously, how do you not do a LB and try to meet someone's EN when it's a one-way street? She does do more around the house, very occassionaly gives me a hug in the day, smiles when I come in the room, etc. so I don't know if that is an effort on her part or not...I'm scared to ask. But it's all empty gestures because those things aren't really important EN's to me. Hey, I'm a guy, you know?

But I don't bring it up and let her initiate any physical contact. I've withdrawn, I guess, but don't want to. You know? It just takes so much strength to be nice to her and I don't know why. Yes I do-- my #1 EN isn't being met and I honestly sometimes cannot bear to be around her.

So that's it. No new hints at an A, either she's gone further underground as someone else said or I called her on it during a very early stage and she realized what she was doing. I don't know, but don't want to be a fool or be naive either.

We did go out to lunch last week, she liked the idea, but I felt like I carried the conversation. It's kind of hard when there's a cloud hanging over us.

Thanks for reading.

Northwood, I am intigued by your thread.

Maybe my own experience can help you sort this out.

After the birth of my second son (now 6), my WW had no interest at all in SF. On the (very) few occasions it actually happened, there was no reciprocation at all. You could imagine how it felt trying to make love to a corpse, so after repeating this pattern enough times over the course of a couple years I just quit trying. She always claimed that she had no libido and the stress of raising a family left her too tired. Not knowing anything about MB's or meeting needs, I thought the best thing to do was not to pressure her.

Fast forward to a year ago, she starts having an affair. I found out in January and was floored. Since D-Day and more instances of broken NC and even more OM, I see how wrong I really was. Facebook messages and text messages I've read state how she's "always horny" and "can't get enough".

Anyway, the lack of SF is definitely a red flag. Many on here will tell you that she is "saving herself" for the other man. Even before I found out about my WW's affair, I knew something was wrong when she wouldn't even sustain a kiss on the lips.

To make a long story short, SF is an important need for BOTH of you. You may be approaching it wrong, the chapters in HNHN's on affection and SF are nothing short of brilliant. Please re-read them.

The fact that SF has been entirely stopped is a big red flag, continuing affair or not.

That just reminded me to order the book (just did), thanks!

The affair of 2001 (or was it 2002?) went pretty much the same way as your story, without the kids though. When I learned a month ago that she had deliberately stopped being affectionate (not necessarily sex) because she "didn't feel a connection", a big bell went off in my head and an affair was my very first thought.

I went for 19 years like his. After the speech, (you know the one...I am 40 and now it is my time) I found out the XW actually liked SF. It just wasn't with me.

Funny thing though, months later she came back crying and saying things like 'What went wrong with us?... sob, sob, sob. I said, "Well you started screwing our son's Travel Baseball coach". Then I hung up.

It took me 19 years to 'Man up'. And I found this site and another AFTER I went throught all of this crap!. You may get some benefite from this site too. don't let the name through you.

**edit**

I got sex about 8 times per year. Well, that is my best guess anyways. I put her up on a pedestal. Sounds like you have the same problem!

It took me a long time to figure out that I was the problem...

One more thing...

I have been remarried to a great girl for years. She has NEVER rejected me and loves to be with me!

At the time, my ego was shot! I am sure your may be a little bruised too.

It sounds like to me, you need to work on yourself. Maybe a little weigh lifting, hang with the guys, etc...

One thing you get when you visit here is gratitude seeing what other people are dealing with. No matter how grave the situation you can always find some people struggling with worse.

Like a garden or lifting, or any other physical or psychological fitness, relationship fitness is hard to get into but once it's going, it takes less and less effort and you reap more and more rewards. There are always struggles and hardship but I'd rather be struggling with my own problems than have someone else's.

Having less emotional affection, less SF, struggle harder with conversation (EN of W), yes these are difficult and more difficult than many other physical and physical (and spiritual) pursuits, but yet we are still afloat and hence the children are for the moment growing in a nurturing environment.

If my W resumed an EA, I would somehow find the strength to surge ahead with Plan A (even more so than now) but glad or now there is no EA.

... that I'm aware of.....

-L2L

Is there room in this conversation for a gal? I was reading this thread and it struck a cord, my H told me more than 10 years ago that he was totally impotent and I believed him cause I know that its a side effect from his diabetes and medications; so I resolved to repress my feelings in the interest of not making him feel less of a man. Hmmm, well hows this for gratitude, I found out almost 4 months ago that he was in a 5 year relationship with a FRIEND of ours,(he confessed to 2 more) and when I asked him about the impotence he tells me that he is not Always impotent and the(he and OW) worked around it. WTH????
I am plotting his murder at least 20 hours out of every day!

Thanks for the input BobJan, I'll take a look at that site. As for the pedestal, I think it fell over a few days ago.

Here's a random story from tonight...

Our son (age 5) gets his bath at 7, in bed around 7:30 where I read him a story. So he's getting out of the tub and my W is drying him off. He starts complaining that he wants to stay up late and doesn't want to go to bed.

We both say the same thing: "Sorry, bud, but it's bedtime." We both get completely different reactions.

To me: Unnnh! then resignation as he brushes his teeth.
To W: I don't love you! Get out of here! So she leaves.

I tell him that wasn't nice and he needs to say he's sorry to mommy. So he gets in bed, W comes in and, instead of saying he's sorry he tells her the same thing and to leave his room. So she does, and as I read his stories about ten minutes pass.

It's goodnight time, kiss and hug, and he asks where W is. She comes in, tells him that wasn't nice what he said and to give her a hug and kiss. The irony was just sickening.

I wanted to get a bullhorn, turn the volume all the way up, stick it to her ear and scream "HOW BOUT DEM APPLES, BABY! Now you know how it freaking feels for someone to say I don't love you and tell you to leave the room!"

But I don't have a bullhorn, so I just smiled to myself and that was it.

I realized, though, that even little kids have love banks. His account with me is overflowing, he's my buddy and we do a lot together. His account with his mom is obviously lower, though I do the right thing and discourage him from doing or saying mean things to her.

I wonder if W saw the parallel? Probably not, but thought I'd type it up anyways.

You ain't kidding...sometimes I feel kind of bad for saying that I've got problems. But getting feedback from others is great, and the writing actually helps a little.

Wow, five years? I don't blame you for feeling so angry with that kind of betrayal from your spouse AND "friend". So how's it going with you guys, did he break it off with OW (or plural?)

wel; the 5 year relationship is the one thats causing the most problem right now, one of the other relationship was a ONS and the other lasted all of a week.
It is not going well at all and more and more I am starting to accept that I just don't do it for him. I an walk around(and do quite a bit) but naked and-nothing, zilch, so I guess he is only impotent for me. He was supposed to call SH and has not, says he wants to do the on line program but I am skeptical about his level of commitment.
Life is very very dark for me right now.
Most people think that I am quite pleasing to the eye, in looks and my body, but I guess I don't have what OW has.

NW,

I don't love you! Get out of here! So she leaves.

I hope I'm completely wrong to think this but did your wife have your son around OM?

I know my wife never really forgot seeing her dad with some woman when she was very small. While very young children are not sophisticated in understanding affairs, they do understand when something is not right.

God Bless
Gamma

you know what? I have yet to see someone on this forum reference an affair that went on for 5 years, am I the only one? is there hope after 5 years-very doubtful from where I am sitting.

Well, they say there's always a light at the end of the tunnel, but I usually want to kick people that say that! But I guess a lot of people, myself included, have been or are there and have gotten the T-shirt.

Can you do a joint (speaker-phone) call with Harley to force him to the table? I'm not sure what the protocol is, so beg your pardon if that isn't how it works. I'm kind of new at this, unfortunately.

To hell with the OW, just try to smile and think "I'm so much better than her and by letting her get to me she wins"...hard to do, I know. Hang in there.

No, I think he would have mentioned it as he talks non-stop all day about anything and everything that comes to his mind. I know one day, several months ago, she did take him to the pediatrician and stopped by work to get some things on the way home. So he did meet the suspect-OM as DS commented on the golf clubs in his office. But, other than that, no, I don't believe so.

I guarantee you that I would hit the roof if I suspected otherwise. There's no room in my kids' lives for that kind of garbage, and I would probably be at the courthouse the next day seeking sole custody.

NW Thank God for MB, when I get down I come here and commiserate, its helpful to know we are not alone isn't it?

Yeah, just talking about it helps--venting I suppose.

I sure as hell cant vet to WH, I think he is on another planet. It amazes me that he keeps asking me to give him a chance to show me he is no longer that person who has done all these terrible things and yet he is not convincing me that we should stay together. what about you? do you have a clear idea of what you want to do? or do you vacillate like I do?

I believe you can get a sense of what the other person really wants, and going with that instinct is usually correct. Yes, I do go back and forth with what I want to do...sometimes I think of going by the courthouse and getting the papers, then other times I want to work it out.

It's frustrating, to say the least.

It sounds like your WH is still in a fog over the five-year relationship, but if he is asking for a chance then that's a start and more than what a lot of people get. Going by Plan A, you will, hopefully, start to see more commitment, but I'm tempted to say just take what you can get and go day by day or hour by hour.

Do you think that, today, he is further along than he was, say, last week or last month? Do you think you are seeing progress?

Being patient is pretty hard

I've been thinking about this all evening. There's more I want to say to Northwood. You know this is an EA now... probably. EA's have different forms and are shapeless jello molds... always shifting and shaping. If there is no PA, (after the trip now, has anything new surfaced or is she still on the trip?), you have a better chance of provding some healing presence to your W. You can ease into a discussion by saying you've noticed that you (not her) have been more emotionally distant... and is there anything you can do to make a greater connection...? Blame yourself. The reason is that she is already blaming you for certain things in her head, so blaming yourself will make it easier for you to bond with her and get her to open up. Once she's more open to you, your PLAN A activities will be more easily planted. If she suspects you are trying to trick her, and hurt her, then your Plan A activities will be psychologically blocked by her.

One thing that's true for sure is that your wife is not feeling well. Something deep inside her knows that she's not at her best.

Northwood, there are lots of problems that you'll encounter in life. This is a big one, perhaps as big as if your entire house burned down and you had no fire insurance. Or the foundation is rotting and you have no money for repairs. Sometimes you have to accept hardship and difficulty with gratitude.

No, you can't control your W, but you can bring ease and joy to your life by trying to address problems with a straightforward effort to make repairs. THen if your efforts fail, you will at least have the comfort that you did everything you could.

One last thing... your W may have something more than just an EA. She might have a kind of depression called dysthymia, and she may require a medical treatment to help her feel better. If she doesn't want medications, then don't go down the road of forcing her... or trying to be controlling... but it's something you can put in the back of your mind if she becomes more open, you could recommend some medicine for that medical problem.

Please keep this thread open so we can talk back and forth. I hope you are not hopeless... you are not alone... you have friends here that know the pain only a man can feel when there is an EA or a PA of a wife. SOme people think that the EA's are worse than the PA... surely both at the same time are the worst though.

You're a good dad. You're a good person. You're a good husband. You're a good employee. Sometimes we need to hear these things again and again and again. Put them up on your bathroom mirror and look at them every day!

L2L

I hadn't thought of that avenue, thanks for that!

I did notice that, on the trip to the beach, she was more like her normal self so it was, overall, a nice experience. I did wonder, though, if that was due to the absence of a "third party"....probably likely.

Lacking any proof one way or the other, I lean towards the side of caution, but did notice her mood waned a little once we got back to the real world.

If there is an EA, and I think there was in June and July, I wonder if it is in trouble as we (me and her friends) have all called her out on it, raised that flag, shone a light on the elephant, etc. So I'm sure that she knows that others suspect, and that helps to pull these types of things out of the shadows.

She doesn't text message as often as she did, but her phone and email/computer offer no clues one way or the other. Of course, I'd like to think that I'm in the clear but am smart enough not to.

L2L, she is depressed, that's a certainty. She's been on Cymbalta for about a year, before that was Zoloft. I've spoken to her friends, our counselor, minister and her step-mother about getting her to confirm her prescription with a psychiatrist instead of her family doctor. All say that they'll bring it up so we'll see.

Yesterday evening I asked if she needed her prescriptions refilled...there's a myriad for migraines, thyroid, Cymbalta and birth control. I almost asked why the h are you getting the birth control refilled, but didn't. But I really really wanted to.

So I guess I recognize potential LBs and don't act. I've always been one to think three times before speaking, so guess it's not that hard to do.

Anyways, L2L, thanks for the kind words, I do appreciate it and everyone's input/concern over my little "issue", ha!

We go to counseling at 11:00...hope it goes well, I'm actually kind of nervous.

Forgot to ask...my copy of HNHN comes in today. I'm reading some other books (spiritual mostly and one called Love & Respect that our church group is doing), but wonder how she'll react when she sees the small print on the title..."How to affair-proof your marriage" or something to that effect.

Any suggestions, or just say nothing at all. At this point, I figure I work, have a mortgage, two kids and plenty of bills and can read whatever I want to, but I'd like some suggestions on how to get her to read it as well.

She's not a big reader, tends to start and not finish things, but I'd like to get her on board with the concepts without appearing to force them on her.

You have no right to put your wifes medical treatment to every Tom, Sam and Harry you meet. It is unethical. If your doctor did it, it would be also be illegal.
It can be a HUGE LB, and exposure of your opinion of her medications is not want exposure is about.

She should not have to hide her medical history (or scripts) in her own house.

I fear it is going to be be a cold day --youknwwhere-- before you are ever going to get more info like this from her. OR your acusations could make her STOP taking medications entirely (so she can prove she does not need them)

Are either of these scenarios what you want?


Expose the A. Expose the behavior.

Someone please add a link describing what a DJ is.

Barbiecat, thanks for your input. Perhaps I could clarify that I didn't run to these people shouting "YAHHH! My wife is nuts and y'all HAVE to barage her now!"

Actually, these people are genuinely concerned over her behavior as it has affected their relationships with her. I have been asked, by several, if she is on medication and whether or not this is normal behavior for her. That is, she'll be close to a group of friends and then WHAM no contact, nothing, then full speed again with them. It's the erratic behavior that is being noticed, and it's not hard to see.

My concerns over her well-being are not unfounded. I, obviously, am not in a position to question her about her medications, but others may be. Hence the solicitation from her friends, and their welcome acceptance of it. If I thought otherwise, I wouldn't do it.

Depression is an illness, and the sufferers don't often see things as others do, much like a drug addict or alcoholic, I suppose. I think this is an underlying issue that must be addressed to check it off the list.

I don't believe that a family doctor is necessarily qualified to treat mental health. Sure, they can give you a quick script to get you through a tough time, but long-term treatment, I believe, is best left to those that specialize in that area.

No, neither scenario is what I would want, as these things have to be handled delicately or she would shut down and withdraw. She's smart enough to know that there is an issue, but I believe a second opinion is warranted.

So, I hope that helps to clear things up. I do appreciate getting a second viewpoint, and do thank you for bringing it up.

Oh, what does "DJ" stand for...will have to go through the links again.

EDIT: Disrespectful judgement...got it. So just read the book and, if she's interested, go from there but don't try to suggest it. Right?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3402_disrespect.html

Sure you did. You disguised "case building" for "concern."

You then defend your wrong. By giving me a sermon about depression. Void of any apparent regret.

Missing the point of LB WD's.

You seem very entitled, sir. How does your wife feel about these "solicitations" of other people?

Others can help you better....

Well, I didn't think of it that way up until a few minutes ago, but see now that it would be a gigantic LB for her...making her feel like she was being attacked, that no one understood, a betrayal of confidence.

I just want to help, but don't know how without trying to fix things.

You sound like a capable man, Northwood. Keep forming your opinions and keep doing what you think is right. Your W may have bigger social needs than you and by expressing your concernto others over her overall health, mental health included, you are telegraphing your love and concern for her, and she may very well pick up on that. Sure, it's a delicate balance between overcontrolling paternalistic concern, and your loving Husbandry. You can find the balance. Your wife sounds like she needs you in her life. Let her get to know you even more, put your needs second. Just like paying down that mortgage, it's all interest in the first few years. Then sooner or later you start paying into the balance... little by little. Then one day you own the house. Sure thing is that an EA or PA doesn't start overnight beause you had an argument over the beans or what temperature to cook the turkey. EAs are the result of emotional erosion over years of time (and can be related to depression, migranes, physical ailments, etc.. )

So, you start building it back up, one grain of sand at a time. It might seem like it's too slow and you want results faster. Nothing doing! Built into all of this is your own acceptance of the situation. The more you accept your own deficiencie, the better, and less tortured you will be. You see, you can only control your own behavior. A side effect of good behavior is a loving wife. Not the other way around.

You can count yourself lucky that there's no ative EA or PA... because now, more of her needs are available to be met by you. But if there's an EA, then some of the needs are being met by the OM. If her needs are being met in that other relationship, she'll not really have the same openness to you. Simple human nature. It's much harder for your W to accept instant coffee from you when the OM is offering espresso from Starbucks. A crude analogy but hopefully you get it.

The hardest part for me personally was when I knew it was going on and realized I needed to put back only grains of sand at a time. Still, a year later, I have a deep hatred over the situation and am almost hostile to the point of wanting a D. But spirituality and faith call me to action, action, and more action. Jesus didn't carry that cross made of balsa wood. It was a real, hard, knotty, hardwood cross that burned into his shoulder and cut him. But he moved on... step...by step...by step... and now we have Salvation.

Take your steps... grains of sand at a time... reinforce your intention to love her forever to the best of your ability, regardless of her actions. Our vocation as husbands come as an assignment from God, and he said we would have the opportunity for imitating Him if we wanted to. The fact that you have this hardship is plenty evidence that you are being like Christ. You are a pretty good role model! But He never said it would be easy. Sure, he said his yoke was light, and compared to other problems you could have, this one is, in fact relatively light. Let's pray together that your stamina holds up even while you may feel angry over SF, and your own needs not being fulfilled. Maybe sometimes you feel like a one armed paper hanger, unable to continue even one more step. But you can.

I wouldn't trade problems with you even while my own issues are overwhelming and I feel like I'm drowning at times. But I will go my death fighting for this marriage. And I'm truly glad I don't have to visit custody court hearings, lawyers for property disputes, the impact of an EA on the kids.

As for your question about the book about Affair proofing your marriage. I think you should not announce your wish to share the book (IMO). Let her find it if she wants, hide nothing, but let it be your continued intention to work on yourself, getting the book for your own development and to enable you to be a better husband. Your wife sounds like a capable woman and she can take her own steps when it's time, and can buy her own books. It's too soon to suggest changes or improvements for her to make, I think. Instead just keep looking for grains of sand to reverse the emotional erosion.

Medications will help her, and it's another thing to be grateful for. I don't really think the psychiatrist is all that important at this time - IMO. Cymbalta is a good drug but is a hard drug to change from - lots of side effects to discontinue that one. If she has migranes and etc., it can help with those pains as well. My W tried the cymbalta but it never worked. Now she has some imetrex for occaisional use and the citalopram. If she's in physical pain then it will be harder for her to meet your EN's. Read a book on being the husband of someone with chronic pain. Funny thing is, when I do more of the cooking and the cleaning, her migranes are less bad... and she feels that I am more invested in the relationship. Plus I get to try out new recipies!

Like many views and opinions on this board you will quickly learn who you want to learn from and who to ignore. Lots of Monday morning quarterbacks on this site, and plenty of back seat drivers. Stick with the positive, solution focused people and don't get distracted by the negativism and critical accusations. Your job is hard enough without feeling attacked by jeering crowds.

No one knows your situation better than you.

"Amazing how heavy a grain of sand can seem sometimes!!"

-Keep paying down on that emotional mortgage!!

-And learn to make espresso drinks!

L2L

--------------------------
H (me) 43
W 41
EA 2009
S - 13
D- 9
S- 3

Thanks, L2L.

I'm probably bugging Him to death, but it is a measure of having the strength to withstand things. And, yep, that little grain of sand sure is heavy sometimes!

The counselor meeting went ok, she talked with me and W separately which, I think, is ideal for now as there are some things that neither of us feel quite safe saying in front of the other.

She (counselor) did tell me that most of her questions were met with "I don't know" which is no real surprise. But, she found it encouraging that W is at least talking, so it's step-by-step for now. W meets with her next Tuesday, then we go together on Thursday.

All-in-all, I'd say things are slightly better than they were, say, two weeks ago, so I guess that's a good thing. Patience sure is hard, though.

Oh, and that's my plan for the book--she's free to take an interest but I won't propose it.

just checking in, Northwood. How are things lately?

Northwood, I didn't read every word of your thread, so maybe someone covered this, but I'm going to say it anyway.

Cymbalta is an SSRI (selective seratonin reuptake inhibitor) anti-depressant.

One of the most common side effects of ALL SSRI's is an inability to reach orgasm. There is a spectrum on how much people can enjoy SF while on SSRI's.

SF had always been very achievable for me. Then I took various SSRI's for many years for severe clinical depression. I tried ALL of them (literally) in all combinations and all dosages off and on for well over a decade -- I like SF, and fought giving it up.

Regardless of the brand or dosage of SSRI's, it was uniform across the board -- I was dead from the waist down. I had no sexual feelings or response of any kind. I had SF with my H to keep him happy, but I felt NOTHING.

Anecdotally, I will tell you that the shut down in sexual responsiveness for women I know who have this side effect is complete and total. Men don't seem to have the same absolute cut off response.

I apologize if this seems too intrusive, but it jumped out at me. I fear that you and your W may not have been briefed on this side effect by the prescribing doctor and are looking at each other as the issue rather than a biological response to a pharmaceutical.

There are other medical options that don't have this side effect. It took me 10 years and a really good doc to find out what my real medical issue is. Don't give up.

Again, I apologize if this seems intrusive but I can't imagine how confusing it might be if you and your W were unaware of this possible side effect.

Hardly intrusive, thanks for passing on what you've learned from taking these medications. I've suspected that it may be contributing, but have no idea at all how to broach such a subject. I don't think there is a way, really.

To anyone outside looking in, everything is normal and I can see an improvement over a few weeks ago. Conversation is more relaxed, natural and I think we're actually enjoying spending time with each other--when possible with us both working and two kids. UA time is kind of hard to achieve, though, and old habits are hard to break.

For example, for the past three years we'll get home from work around 5:00, supper by 5:30, youngest gets bath and bed around 6:30, oldest in bed by 7:45 and then we go to bed around 9:00. Honestly, after each day, we don't usually sit down until around 8:00 so spending quality time gets easy to forget how to do when you're so drained. You know? But I'm working on it, just kind of wish that she would consciously do so as well.

I've been working really hard to meet her most important EN's (likely Conversation then Affection with a bit of Admiration) and have noticed a difference...we're laughing more and I think we're both enjoying life a little more.

Thing is, I've found that I'm not doing it to manipulate her into staying in the marriage; rather, that I actually enjoy doing it and wonder what the h took me so long to see that. Of course, I have times where it's difficult to give give give when my EN's are unmet (physical affection, SF). Those just are NOT things that she finds important at this time. Sometimes it really bothers me, sometimes love is unconditional--guess it depends on the phase of the moon, ha ha.

I'm trying, though, and have a inkling that she may be as well.

I could analyze this thing to death, but thanks, y'all, for checking in on me!

Northwood, every spouse should know what medications their spouse is on in case of emergency because that is one of the first question the EMT's will ask. You could use that as a conversation opener and tell your W that you Googled Cymbalta for that reason and this side effect came up and you wondered if she was aware of it.

You seemed to suggest that she is a bit defensive as you are enlisting others to try to get her to have her prescription vetted by a psychiatrist which is an EXCELLENT idea if she is not responding to the anti-depressants.

IMO, if your W is feeling defensive, ashamed or misunderstood about her depression, you have a great opportunity here to make some serious $LB deposits by showing understanding and empathy.

OK, I am going to get on my soapbox here. Be warned.

Many people do not understand mental illness, and especially depression, to be just that: an illness. It is not a character flaw, it is not a sign of weak moral fiber or laziness, and it is not the patient's fault.

Like many illnesses, depression has organic and environmental roots. Like many illnesses, it can take time and experimentation to get the right combination of medications and lifestyle to get it under control. Like many illnesses, it's severity and duration can be impacted by the patient's interior and exterior environment. And, like many illnesses, it can in fact be managed and even cured.

I have high blood pressure which is treated with medication. My hypertension is as a result of a hereditary predisposition, an organic cause. Its onset was associated with my third pregnancy, the trigger. If I gain weight, don't exercise, smoke and lead a stressful life, my hypertension will get worse, environmental factors. Those environmental factors may require me to change or add to my medication. If I change some of those environmental factors, I am less likely to need more or different medication even though the organic causes will still be present.

Depression is no different. It has an organic basis which relates to the interaction of different brain chemicals. A traumatic event or series of events can trigger it, or it may manifest on its own for no apparent good reason. Environmental factors can exacerbate its severity and duration.

I can't tell that I have hypertension. I need a doctor to do the proper testing to determine that and monitor my condition to ensure that the medication prescribed is doing its job. My only obligation is to seek medical care and follow the doctor's recommendation.

Depression is no different. The depressed person is often unable to see that they are ill. They need a doctor to evaluate them, treat them, and monitor their condition to ensure that the medication is doing its job. The patient's only obligation is to seek medical care and follow the doctor's recommendations.

So you see, there should be no shame involved. The sick person should only feel shame if he or she refuses to seek the proper medical care and follow the doctor's recommendations.

OK, off soapbox.

I suggest you take some time to really educate yourself about depression and then go to your W and explain that you care for her so deeply that you have done the following 17 things to learn about her condition, tell her what you have learned, and then be her warrior to get her the proper treatment because if she really is depressed, she has zero energy to take care of herself -- it's kind of like having a slight flu all the time. EVERYTHING is a huge effort. You should communicate to her that you all together are going to vanquish the depression demon from your lives and ride off into the sunset to a life of energy and joy.

There is not another person on the planet who can do that for her, and certainly not a potential AP. You are it.

I feel quite passionately about this because for years I begged my H to learn about my depression but he never would. H treated me like I was being self indulgent until I became suicidal. If he had been behind me in my fight, I think I would have gotten better quicker because he could have supported me in catching habits of thought that exacerbated the illness instead of, inadvertently or not, adding to or validating the negative messages I was sending myself. My gratitude would have been unending. Instead, I resented him deeply for many years for not taking the time to learn.

My favorite of about a million books I read on the subject is "Undoing Depression". It changed my life.

It's a fight, but it is winnable, particularly if you support her.

And touch and kiss your W with no expectations of SF. Kiss her hello in the evening, good night, and good morning. Hold her hand in the car, rub her shoulders while she's cooking, scratch her back when she's going to sleep. It's so simple.

If she resists I can almost guarantee you it is because affection and SF are firmly linked in her mind so she thinks you are manipulating her to get SF. Those two things need to get disconnected in her mind for a while, but when they do, she will likely be far more affectionate with you and then you have something to work with.

Why is it H's don't kiss their wives after M? It is a universal complaint amongst married women I know.

Last thing: b/c pills can trigger depression in some women. I tried them numerous times, and fortunately had a gyno who was aware of that, put it together from my lethargic, hopeless demeanor, and told me to "let myself up" as there are some women who just can't take them.

Good luck -- I hope you run through this opening.

Thanks, saddest, I think we're on the same page. She doesn't know that I had enlisted the aid of others regarding the prescription, but I had thought of it as an intervention, of sorts. Like you, I think the only shameful thing would be to ignore it.

She does acknowledge the depression, multiple physicians and two counselors have done so as well, so at least she knows what the enemy is. I think that now she is a bit complacent with medical treatment--kind of "Hey, I'm taking medicine, that should be working but I'm still not happy". So there's probably multiple issues at work and they all feed off each other.

I'm just trying to knock them out one at a time, and the Cymbalta is on my list, among others.

You are right, she does interpret physical contact as a prelude to SF. Since I know where it is *not* going, I have been doing the minor things that you mentioned-- touch on the shoulder, pat on the back, hug, etc. She doesn't cringe away, which I guess is a good thing, but does not reciprocate or initiate--something she used to do. It'd mean the world if she did, but I'm trying to be patient here. What's that saying, "I want patience and I want it now!"

I've been reading up on depression and see that many struggle with this. It's cavalier to say, but she's not as bad as some that fight it--she doesn't lay in bed all day or cry endlessly, so I guess that's a plus. But it's still there, in whatever form, and must be addressed.

You're right, I think that everyday life contributes a great deal to whatever chemical thing is going on inside. Since I cannot change the inside, I'm making every effort to reduce the outside stresses and have seen positive results in that regard.

She went to the IC last Tuesday, said they spent the whole time talking about her mother (who divorced her father when she was 3 or so, the father got full custody back in the 1970s so you know that was unusual). She apparently got a lot out of the discussion, and asked if she could go that Thursday by herself as we had scheduled it as a joint session. Our prior joint sessions had been us taking turns talking separately with the counselor, which is fine with me at this point.

I said that was fine, but told her I did want to talk to the counselor as well and would schedule another appointment. She laughed and said "Well you're not the one that's crazy! Ha Ha" Also that she thought she was "almost there" and then wanted us to both go, that the counselor told me to "hang in there." Or something like that. I told her she wasn't crazy and that was the end of it--a lighthearted conversation.

I try not to read much into anything anymore, don't want to get my hopes up. Sadly, keeping low expectations kind of helps sometimes.

So I set up an appointment for next Tuesday by myself, maybe I can get some feedback. Dunno.

You said

Why is it H's don't kiss their wives after M? It is a universal complaint amongst married women I know.

Guilty as charged, and her thinking is that now, when I do want to be that way, she asks Well you didn't before so why now? Well I want to now so she's just going to have to get used to it, ha ha.

But anyways, saddest, thanks for your comments, you made a lot of good points and the perspective from the "other side" is always nice. We haven't really talked about depression, though I want to, but I'm scared she'll think I'm trying to "fix" her and, by trying to fix her, that I am saying to her that she is too weak or incapable of helping herself. Also she thinks that it isn't "just" the depression, that there's no quick fix or magic solution. She's told me several times in the past that she gets irritated when I try to fix her, so I back off, but it's hard to do.

Thoughts on a approach or did you ever feel the same way?

SW,

Why is it H's don't kiss their wives after M? It is a universal complaint amongst married women I know.

Not always on the H, I asked my wife to kiss me for 10 minutes without break for my birthday a month ago, I actually wanted nothing else, she has yet to deliver...

God Bless
Gamma

Well then Gamma, she deserves some 2x4's! (where is that icon anyway? Do you have to graduate to get it?)

Northwood, it's really very simple, but oh so hard.

Fix=I am going to tell you what to do to fix YOUR problem since YOUR problem is bothering me.
Subtext=you are not bright, competent, or motivated enough to figure it out for yourself and I find it irritating that I am having to deal with this.
Impact= HUGE disrespectful judgement lovebuster. Whatever you are thinking, multiply it by 100.
Result: Withdrawal from sharing problems, isolation and resentment.

Help=we have a challenge and I have some thoughts on how to meet it and I want and value your input on what we should do.
Subtext=I think you are a competent, intelligent, motivated person whose thoughts and opinions I value and I care deeply about you and your well being and our M.
Impact=contribution to the $LB for making her feel valued.
Result=drawing closer, sharing more, feeling safe with you.

I HATE gratuitous criticism under the guise of being helpful and being told what to do with a fiery passion. You just can't imagine.

I LOVE solving problems. I've told me kids from a wee age that life is a series of problems to be solved and that is a very good thing as it keeps us engaged and moving forward. Throw 49 kinds of fits and blame everyone under the sun, including the evil math teacher who must have taken the worksheet out of your backpack, and guess what? At the end you still don't have your math sheet. What are we going to do to solve the problem -- pull out the yellow pad and let's start making a list.

Any problem your W has is by definition your problem too as you are married -- that's the beauty and the beastliness of marriage.

You want to HELP her solve her problem with depression. You are doing a very, very good thing reducing external stressors and, hopefully, NOT pointing out what a very, very good thing you are doing. She needs energy to work her way through her illness. Her energy is a resource of your M, and the best use of that resource right now is to devote it to getting better.

Maybe you could start by sharing a problem you are having unrelated to your home life and getting her input on it -- something with a co-worker, friend or family member. She'll feel SO much safer talking about her issues if you lead the way with something relatively benign and not threatening, invite her in to help you solve it, listen to her, validate her by repeating back what she says, and thank her for her insightful comments. Then report back to her on how it turned out. It doesn't have to be a big deal issue -- the car mechanic is fleecing you, the IT guys in the office aren't doing their job, you admin has missed 6 days in the last month for specious reasons.

Just make sure whatever it is is NOT something that she might actually be called upon to DO anything about. It needs to be uniquely your issue and you are asking her because you value her opinion, and for no other reason.

If you haven't read it yet, read Dr. Hartley's article on why wives leave their husbands. It is so dead on I can't believe a man wrote it. In effect, I am recommending that you invite her into one of the closed off rooms in your house.

I'm going to be brutally honest on the kissing issue. My OM was a professional philanderer. To his credit, he never pretended to be anything else (I did all the pretending in the relationship, if you can call it that.) I see no reason why the H's on MB shouldn't get the benefit of my experience because he absolutely knew how to charm.

A few weeks after NC, I sat down to write down the things that I found most appealing about OM with a view towards creating that in my M. Number one on the list was that every time OM saw me, he looked me in the eye, smiled, and then he gave me a kiss. No big dramatic movie kiss-- just a peck on the lips with a hand on my shoulder. But it was "hi, I'm very pleased to see you, you are attractive to me, and for anyone who is watching, she is mine." And when we parted, he always did the same. 100% of the time.

Such a small thing, but try it. Acknowledging your W is there when you walk in the door in the evening, looking her in the eye, and signaling that you think she is cute is a huge message.

One caveat -- this ritual can and should be accomplished without interrupting her activity or train of thought. You are doing this purely for HER, not because you want her to stop and give you attention.

Follow that ritual up with "how can I help you" and you will be depositing some $LB.

It may not be commented on, but it will not go unnoticed.

Absolutely awesome input that you just gave me...the definitions are spot on, just what I needed but couldn't put my finger on.

Would write more, but our son is in the bath and just turned the shower on without pulling the shower curtain...

I think she's noticing, and probably noticing even more that I'm not obviously seeking acknowledgement. As I mentioned, the wish for acknowledgement comes and goes.


Good idea there. If you think about it, it's kind of how we all start out when dating but forget over time.



I've seen that before, but cannot find it now...care to share a link if you run across it again?


That's what I used to do but, like others, kind of put on the back burner as life goes on. But, I unconsciously started doing that again because, well, the feelings are genuine and come back once you realize that something is in jeopardy. I agree with your caveat and think that is an important point, thanks for reminding me of how easy something can be.

Got a question for you guys, wondering if I�m overthinking things or not. As you may have guessed, I�m having doubts that my W was having an EA as, recently, I�m just not getting that vibe or gut feeling and have seen no indication that says otherwise. But I don�t want to be na�ve so it kind of turns into a second guessing thing.

So we�ve been getting along very well (except for her not meeting my EN�s but, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play) but I�m hanging in there and making $LB deposits like a son of a gun. Just playing the waiting game, I guess.

So tonight she says her co-worker gave her two tickets to a fundraiser that her job is doing on Sunday afternoon. Just FYI, she technically works for non-profit organization #1 which receives a Federal grant by swapping employees with non-profit organization #2. So she works at organization #2 but is employed by #1, make sense?

Organization #2 is doing the fundraiser, a shrimp dinner or something like that with outdoor games for the kids�space jump, face painting, that sort of thing. Suspected OM works for #2.

She asks if I will go with her, with the kids, to this thing on Sunday. Now, one of her big EN�s is RC, a need that I haven�t been that good with in the past. So it�s an opportunity, and the kids will have good time. Trouble is, I�m pretty sure suspect OM would be there, too.

No way in hell would I let her go alone, so I�m going, but have no desire at all to see this suspect-OM. But, it�s kind of a job-thing so she sort of needs to go. Maybe it�ll rain, but I doubt I�ll get that lucky.

Even if this guy isn�t an OM, it�s in my head now and I cannot unthink it. Maybe he was a potential OM, maybe nothing came of it, I don�t know and cannot prove one way or the other.

I guess I don�t have any real question, I�m going and have no plans on getting arrested or doing anything stupid, but wonder if I could get some thoughts from you guys? I want to say �No, we�re not going because of the suspect-OM�, but I feel like it�d be a LB to say that when I have no real proof and don�t feel like exposing my snooping�

Maybe a 2x4 is in order? I don�t know, someone tell me what they think, please.

Northwood, just a couple of thoughts for you from the WW standpoint:

1. The fact that she invited you is a pretty good indication that if she was in an EA, it's dead or dying. Otherwise, she would have discouraged you from going. Your past reluctance to do RC with her would have been an easy play for her -- i.e. "honey, I know you don't like this sort of thing. I have to go and it looks like fun for the kids, but I really want you to stay home and relax."

2. I have had men hit on me in the past, including the mentor of my Education for Ministry class, and I DID NOT SEE IT. My H could tell though -- he would say "that guy is so after you" and I would argue with him. In retrospect, H was right.

My point is that you should trust your gut with the OM but don't assume your W is consciously aware of the situation. If she is depressed, the idea that OM might actually be attracted to her may seem unbelievable. The flip side of that is that if OM is attracted to her and she is gravitating, consciously or unconsciously towards that attraction, she may find it hard to resist OM because he makes her feel better and any relief from the desolate internal landscape is irresistible. Think of that moment when you have been in terrible pain, and the codeine kicks in -- you aren't worried that you are going to become a codeine addict. You are just happy the pain has stopped. That's exactly what it is like.

3. This could be an opportunity for you to give her some relief from her pain. I don't have a feel for what the dynamic is between you, but if OM is on the table for discussion at all, take the tack of "the man has excellent taste - of course he is attracted to my adorable wife. But he can't have her because I got lucky and I know it." Compliment her on what she wears to the event, tell her you are proud to show up with her, hold her hand and be solicitous, but not hovering, during the event. If she talks to OM, join the conversation and compliment your W in front of him -- a reference to what a fantastic mother she is is always well received and sends a nice reminder to OM that she has a family. Let her overhear you saying nice things about her to others (this is one of my favorite esteem builders with my teenagers -- when they think I don't know they are listening, I praise them to whoever I am talking to.)

CLAIM HER. There is no better aphrodisiac.

Our dynamic is actually quite nice. I've only mentioned the word affair to her twice since this mess started:

1. Once we were talking about "us" and I just asked, are you having an affair? She shook her head 'no', but I took it with a grain of salt as, at the time, her behavior was waayyyy out there and, even though I live in the South, I'm not a dumba**.

2. A few hours later that day, I asked her about the time she gave "some guy" (suspect OM) a ride to work from the car dealer where he was getting his car fixed. I, of course, new his first and last name, but wanted to see if she'd give the name--she did. I told her that I was not comfortable with that, at all, and she read between the lines very well. She's not a dumba**, either.

It was about a week later that I started seeing a change, more clarity from her so I can only guess at what caused the change. In that same period, I know that two of her friends asked if she was cheating, so perhaps it hit a nerve.

Since then, every day is better than before and since I went through this back in 2002 (or so), I kind of know what to look for. But God, what if the wool is being thrown over my eyes? That's the one thing I cannot shake and need closure on. With no evidence to the contrary, I'm really really wanting to say that nothing is going on now.

Over the last two weeks, she has been a little more disgruntled with her job and has been looking and applying for positions elsewhere. Coincidence? I don't know.

I think going to this shin-dig will actually be a good thing in that I can get a better feel for if this OM is, was, or never was an OM. Too, I can find out if he's married--I think he is, but you know how internet information is not always accurate.

Above all, I think seeing how they interact will be the key.

I mentioned this morning that the news predicted rain for Sunday. She laughed, said she kind of hoped it did because she didn't really want to go...who, afterall, really likes going to company dinners. But it was her boss that gave her the two tickets, so it's an obligation of sorts.

Since we'll have our two kids there, I'm going to position it so that, if we meet, I'm suddenly unable to shake his hand. While I can do the bs small talk thing quite well, just suspecting that he is an OM is going to throw me off. Being even vaguely cordial will be an immense challenge for me, but, if he's innocent, I certainly don't want to appear to be an a-hole. A fine line there, but I think I'll get the picture pretty quickly.

Plus, having two kids there will also prevent her from being alone with him, sometimes having a toddler having a fit and yelling for his mommy isn't a bad thing! If we are in conversation with suspect-OM, I'll keep it brief and just excuse ourselves saying that W and I need to go entertain the kids. If he's guilty, I want him to know that I know without being overly obvious, but if he's not, I don't want to look like someone with anger issues. Make sense?

Though I'd honestly rather go to the dentist, I really want to see what this POS looks like. And if I'm wrong about all of this mess, then that'd be a nice touch, too.

Resolution or peace of mind in sight?

Hey Northwood --- thinking about you this afternoon. Hope you are implementing your plan-- actually, I hope you are getting verification that you don't need a plan!

Let us know how it went.

Have you talked to your W about how she feels about your concern for her emotional welfare?

Does she mind? Has she given you her permission? I hope she knows everyone you have told, (just to be open and honest) so there will be no nasty surprises later. I hope this is so.

I know a little about medical confidentiality. I work in a public setting, with kids. I have heard dozens of times (in seperation/divorce settings) How Parent A is so worried about parent B's mental state. Of course they have had or need to be on medication and they are only telling me this for thier own "good". The saddest part is when the family member pontificates about the child, too.

And then parent B has the same concerns about parent A.
Either way, it is not important to me to know this information. Once the cat is out of the bag...it does not go back in.

I have a lot of mainstreamed kis, and kids who have been in lock up and lock down. We are carefully instructed to encourage the kids NOT to talk about their experinces, medications and such with anyone- except specialists and doctors.. It does carry a stigma that lasts.

A good frined of mine is our overworked school psychologist. This is an issue that burns her up, too. She is the one who made me aware of the seriousnes of this issue.

Also I disagree with an earlier poster (with respect). This type of information being made public can and will have detramental influence/consequences for the person.

We have had parents who were not allowed to chaperone trips, due to questions about "emotional health". I am glad we just run fingerprints/background checks now. Less hearsay.

I don't have an issue with your concern, I have an issue about making her medical history public.

Hey, do you have a family doctor? If you are so worried, have you spoke to him/her about this? (Oh yeah, that is where the questionable meds came from, right?) Or you could make a psychiatric appointment yourself and ask your questions and express your concerns.

There are people all over the internet who will tell you what you want to hear. If that is what you are looking for, great.
I am glad you are here for support.

I am glad that she is warming up to UA.

Think twice and speak once about private info. I guess I hope that she knows everyone you told, and what you told them. I know if you are following MB principles of O&H you have already done this.



Peace out.

Reading barbiecat's post I am fearful this was misunderstood. I was trying to say that going to see a psychiatrist is an excellent idea, NOT that enlisting others was a good idea.

If you have not told your W about your discussions with others about her psychiatric issues, you must do so instantly. I assumed she was privy to that fact but it appears from one of your other posts that maybe she is not.

And I do mean instantly.

When -- not if, but when -- your breach of confidence is disclosed to her by one of those people instead of by you you will have done incalculable damage to her. It makes me shivery and ill to think of it. You have the highest position of trust outside of the legally mandated confidentiality of the doctor/patient relationship.

I'm not trying to beat you up here at all -- I know your motives are good and you want her to get better and felt helpless. It is just impossible to overstate the sensitivity of psychiatric information.

You simply have to tell her exactly who you talked to and what you and they said. She's going to get blindsided by this, and the resulting sense of betrayal. shame, withdrawal and isolation will make today's depression look like a walk in the park. It will be a DJ the size of a Mack truck hitting her without notice.

I got to watch first hand, up close and personal, the magnitude of damage that this sort of information floating around, unknown to the depressed person, can do. When we put my practically perfect 17 year old daughter on suicide watch for a week, I think the school finally got that they should have been a tad more careful about who they told what. She never went back to school -- I home schooled (and I use that term very loosely) this incredibly vibrant, beautiful, intelligent, magnificent child for the second half of her senior year. She rarely spoke for months. We ended up moving our family to a different city.

I asked my H if the betrayal of my A hurt worse than what we went through with our daughter, and he laughed. For him, it's not even a close call -- what we went through with our daughter was way worse. I'm not trying to discount other's experiences on this point -- I'm trying to express to you the magnitude of the issue and the importance of how you handle this.

This isn't about your M -- it's about preserving your W's very fragile trust in the world. You must tell her. Please. Do it in front of the MC if you are concerned about her reaction (and the more concerned you are about her reaction, the more critical it is that you do it.)

You don't have to understand how important it is -- you just have to do it.

Well, that went over mildly. On the advice of the two of you, I told her about my concerns over the meds and that I told others my concerns. That I realize that she doesn't want me to "fix" her and that I was sorry for stepping over the line and breaking trust...didn't quite know what else to say, was waiting for an explosion that didn't come.

She didn't say anything for a few seconds, then said that they already thought she was crazy and it probably wasn't a surprise. Apparently, no one had mentioned that I had spoken to them but had all voiced concerns in one way or another over the past few months. She said the counselor had given her the name of a psychiatrist, but she (my W) didn't think that was the whole problem...paraphrasing here, she was saying that there were other things causing all of this and she didn't think a new pill would make it all go away. That she had been feeling like this for a while now, and reiterated that she didn't want me to "fix" anything, that me doing that peeved her off, and that she had appreciated that, over the past couple of weeks, that I hadn't been pushy. In other words, butt out, end discussion.

I don't know, it was a relatively emotionless reaction but we both tend to stew on things for a while before reacting, so there's probably a different reaction coming in the next day or so.

We didn't end up going to the dinner. It was an outdoor thing, temp in the 90's on a Sunday at 4:00. Plus it had been rainy so the humidity was awful. Around 3:00 she said she just didn't want to fool with it (for the above reasons) and that was that. I'm actually relieved, because I had been dreading meeting that guy for several days now.

So....no news on that front. I'm going, by myself, to the counselor on Tuesday to see if she has any input. W goes on Wednesday, and we are meeting for lunch on Thursday.

This weekend has been more down for me, and I think it shows. Part of it was the dinner, the rest was just the rest of this mess. As a result, conversation was a bit more strained as it was probably obvious that I wasn't there. I'd been doing good earlier, it just kind of comes and goes.

Having quality UA time is tough when neither know what to say. She doesn't know about the MB concepts per se, but gets that us not talking has had a negative impact over the past several years.

Now if I could just figure out if she wants to work on this, it would be a great step forward. I'm too scared to ask, though.

Thoughts?

Good for you! You did the right thing. There may be fall out, but that's OK -- fall out gives an opportunity for communication. Don't wait for her to react -- follow up in a day or so and ask her how she feels about your disclosures, then resist the urge to defend your actions or discount or fix her feelings which may make you uncomfortable. Sit with your discomfort. It isn't going to kill you.


Don't think of it as asking -- think of it as selling. You have a vision of what you want your M to look like -- do you seriously think her vision is all that different?

There is a world of difference between "do you want to do the hard work required to see if we can make this M work" (ummm, no -- I have a job and two small kids so I'm checking the 'no' box on more hard work on an 'if') and "hey, this is how I see us going forward -- it's going to be energizing and intimate and fun and romantic. Here's the plan -- what do you think? I'm a man so I'm clueless about all this emotional stuff and I really need you to help me with it. Come with me and let's see how cool we can make this."

If you get excited, she will. If you view it as drudgery, she will. Presentation is everything.

No, I'm certain that we want the same thing. I'm certain that I haven't always known what I wanted until now. While I know who I want that to be with, I don't think she's as sure.


That sounds like a good idea. Playing devil's advocate, I'm scared she'll say something along the lines of "well we didn't have that before, how can we know that it'll work this time?" I'll chew it over, see if I can come up with a script or something. I just need to get the energy first...only so many times you can put on the happy face, you know?

Which leads to today. When we got home, I could tell instantly that her mood was way off, she had been crying. She asked if she could take my appointment (Tuesday) with the counselor, but, of course, wouldn't say why. Only that she'd had a lousy day.

Well here's your freaking pity party, awww, you had a bad day? Or did you and the suspect OM talk or something? Are you freaking kidding me? This has been a complete nightmare for me and you're contemplating destroying our family because you're "not happy"???? Grow the hell up, get your head out of your a** and let's work on this!! Of course, I didn't say that and said she could go in my stead tomorrow, I'll take her appointment on Wednesday.

So DD goes to bed around 6 and I take DS with me to a church program that we've started going to with friends. W stayed home--I asked her if she needed a break since work was such a pain, that I would take DS with me and we'd be back later tonight. That seemed to help and her mood improved.

God, it's hard to put on my game face when the other person is so obviously down and not there.

So we get back around 8:00, put DS to bed and we laid on the bed and watched TV. Yeah, I know, quality UA time but I take what I can get. I asked her if she'd tell me about her day, she said it was just one of those days at work and that she just isn't happy with where she is in life. You guys know the script.

Needless to say, I'm pretty peeved right now but don't let it show. It's a struggle, but I did well with it and no $LB withdrawals.

Before all this hit the fan today, I did place an order with a florist to deliver flowers to her office tomorrow. Card reads "hope you have a great day, love H" That may have been an opportunity for something more Hallmark-card sounding, but it just didn't enter my mind at the time.

Wonder how she'll take it, or if she'll even mention the flowers.

So here I am, on the internet at 10:30. It's funny, she sleeps so easily it seems, while I tend to lay awake until 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning.

Wish I wasn't here, thought things were going better but I guess she just hides it.

I think I'm going to be sick.

Checked her phone, she's been calling various apartments in the area.

What do I do?

Northwood, I am so not qualified to answer your question about what to do about the apartment. Someone who knows will doubtless be along.

It may be that her calls to the apartments are because she needs to DO something -- the situation is intolerable to her and she needs to take an action, any action, even if it's wrong.

I actually said that to myself many times -- "Saddest, DO something. Even if it's wrong. Do SOMETHING."

I think you guys have waaaay too much stuff going on under the surface. Would you be able to bring it out in the open? The suspected EA, the apartments, your desire that she see a psychiatrist?

Have you talked to SteveH yet? You really should. And she should too- in fact, she should first. As I said on my thread, she may think she knows what he is going to say, but she hasn't a clue.

IMO, talking to SteveH is the absolute best decision you could make. Coaching is not at all what you think it is.

Well we were up from midnight to about 2:00 am talking about things. It's all kind of a blur, but the gist of it was this:

She isn't where she wanted to be career-wise and resents me for that, that she married because it was the next logical step and feels that she has lost herself. She wanted to travel, see the world as a part of her career, and feels that she lost that. I asked how our children fit into this dream and she admitted that she couldn't reconcile that.

She told me that yesterday morning she went and looked at apartments, but the reality of it hit so hard that she crashed..which is what I saw. I guess it's good that she had that reaction?

I talked about how I saw a divorce going--we would lose the house, probably declare bankruptcy as neither could finance our obligations separately, and we would end up in a lower-income apartment complex where the kids would lose everything--their backyard, separate rooms, possibly change of schools, etc.

I said that I didn't want to go down that road, that I've never thought of divorce as an option. I said that we are on the brink of something really great, fun and exciting and that I hoped she would join us (me and the kids) on that journey. This goes back to what saddest mentioned in a post above.

She said she was trying to convince herself to give it another shot, that she didn't want to end up like this again. I agreed, and said that I didn't want the old marriage back, either...it obviously wasn't working and I wanted something new and better.

She said "Well, what if it doesn't work out and we're back here again?" I immediately said "Well, what if it does? We've got nothing to lose and everything to gain here."

She said that she hated to show me any physical affection, because she didn't feel that way (ILYBINILWY) but felt guilty for feeling that way.

I voiced my concerns over how our oldest son (age 5) has been lately--he often refuses to give W a goodnight hug and kiss, but will give me several in a short span often while W sees it. I asked how she felt about that, that he was refusing to give her affection. She said it hurt really bad, and I said that was true for me as well.

So that's kind of how we left it. I gave the invitation, think it hit home and she's considering.

Suggestions?

Northwood, this is excellent. She's talking. That is so huge. And it sounds like you handled it beautifully.

She's grieving the life she didn't lead which, since she didn't lead it she can be certain was perfect, except oops -- the life she didn't lead doesn't include the kids so she can't really grieve it which makes it harder to move on.


The escape hatch closed. She's may feel claustrophobic and panicky. Panicky people make horrible decisions.

Open some windows for her. Plan something fun this weekend. And I mean plan it, as in you find the childcare, pick the restaurant or pack the picnic, buy her scented bath stuff and a People magazine, and take the kids away for a couple of hours before you go out after you've cleaned the kitchen or done whatever it is that would otherwise stand between her and continuing the lovely evening you created when she gets home, which should be after the kids are asleep. Touch her the same way you touch your kids when they are hurting. Don't indicate in any way, shape or form that you want SF -- you want to disconnect affection from SF for the time being.

Create hope.


Her life choices are circumscribed by your children not by your M. She can't resent them-- that's written in the Book somewhere (I am going to insist at some point that I be given the Book) so she resents you instead. She resents you because if her inability to achieve her goals is your fault it isn't her responsibility to make the changes necessary to achieve what she wants to achieve.

Do you know where she wants to be career wise? Do you know where you want to be career wise? Are you all talking about that stuff? "Someday" will in fact come and you can travel Africa together working for a non-profit or whatever floats your boat.

Create hope.


Yea, well logical or not, she's married now. She's not dead. Don't be surprised if the next thing her hear is the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech. They actually have an acronym for that here -- ILYBINILWY. That's how common it is. Don't panic.


The number of lost women in the world is startling. I wonder where they all are. Someone should commission a study.

Every mother on the planet got lost the instant she gave birth. Survival of the species depends on it.

Kidding aside, the "lost self" is an oft repeated phrase poorly defined. I know what it means to me -- out of balance and stagnant. Do you know what that phrase means to her?


She's still not dead.

You must have seen the movie "Up". I love that movie. Do what they did. Set up a bank account and put $50 in and transfer $10 a week if that's what you can afford. Then plan the "Someday" trip together. Learn how to change the oil in your car and contribute that money or whatever.

Create hope.


And .... she's still not dead.

She's stuck.

You haven't talked much about your kids, but I'm going to throw in my two cents worth. Kids the ages of yours are voracious consumers of the resources of time, talent and energy, and, in the new Book, money. Competitive Motherhood is a suburban sport. I look back at the amount of resources I spent worrying and fretting and enriching my kids with absolute dismay. Why in the world did I think it was important for my kid to read in kindergarten? It wasn't like she wasn't ever going to learn. Why did I spend money on art lessons for a FOUR YEAR OLD? It wasn't like I had some budding genius on my hands. Why did I spend all my evenings after work driving them from school to soccer practice to art? I thought I had to -- it was written in the Book somewhere.

By the third I'd learned my lesson and here is what I tell everyone I know who has small children: the ages from one to five are the "keep them alive" years. Deliver them to kindergarten breathing and you have done your job. Don't play the Competitive Motherhood game. There is no winning and it will wear you out. Pare it down.

Well yesterday afternoon after work (and before we picked up the kids) she said

W: If the offer's still there, I'd like to accept.
Me: Yeah, I can handle supper, no problem.
W: No no no, I mean I'd like to work on this [marriage], from what we talked about last night.
Me: Good! I'd be glad to!
W: But I'd like to handle [any type of physical affection] on my own terms, try not to push me because I feel guilty already.
Me: Not a problem.

So, I guess that's a good thing, right? Now if I just don't blow it...but I'm excited that something new may be beginning here.


Yep, the grass is always greener or so they say. I
think we all have those thoughts at some time or another, especially as we get older and start to sense our own mortality.


Sounds like a great idea. It's bad when you've NOT done that for so long that you have trouble thinking of ideas. Uhh!


Got that covered, it took a woman's perspective, though, as that wouldn't have occurred to me.



I think that is where she is torn, because making those changes to achieve her dreams from 15 years ago would cause tremendous upheaval in all of our lives. It's a tough place to be in mentally, I'm sure.


No, she doesn't and sees the prospects dim as the years go by. We have talked about it--goes back to me trying to fix things and being frustrated when all I hear is "I don't know". She just knows that she doesn't like her current job, but doesn't know what to do about it. I hate that she's in the position, wish I could just push a button and fix it for her, but I cannot. I do need to be more supportive of what she wants to do career-wise. That was one thing that she said I wasn't very good at in the past--I agree. To me, it was easier to just ignore it.

I kind of ended up with my job, make good money, am reasonably good at it (ha ha) and am content most of the time. I think I just look at what I have, versus where others are, and am thankful for that. I think that as long as it all balances out then I'm ok.



I didn't hear it in those words, but what sparked all this was "I don't feel like we have a connection anymore." Same thing, same shock to me.



I couldn't find the little smiley face icon of someone laughing, but I looked for it!


I'm fairly certain that I do know what she feels, but, sadly, it's just one of those things that I don't believe has a solution other than abandoning everything and hitting the road.



Yeah, our kids saw it, had a good message. We used to like to travel a lot before we had kids--dated since 1996, married in 2000, first child born 2005. We'd take crazy roadtrips (from MS to Maine, for example) with no hotel reservations, no real destination in mind, just go wherever looked interesting. Those were awesome trips, you can see so much in this country that you didn't even know was there. Kind of funny how things change, but I'd like to do that again and would bet she would, too.


We talked about this very thing last night. I think we both kind of hate that we've let being parents replace being spouses. Don't get me wrong, we wouldn't trade being parents for anything in this world, but recognize that our time together has be drastically cut.

It goes back to UA time, when to get it, how to get it when you've done without for so long (figure five years?). It feels like an uphill battle, but the alternative isn't an alternative so up we go.

So how is everything over your way, saddest? Thanks for checking in with me, it's nice to be able to get second opinions on this rollercoaster that we're all on.

Take care.

Just an update to say that we're doing well, working on the marriage and that I wanted to thank all you guys for the insight gained on this forum. I've learned so much just reading through other posts, and it helped to know that I wasn't alone or that my situation wasn't unique.

The thing with OM was a quasi-EA that lasted for about two months early this summer. She caught herself with what could happen with such a relationship and fell apart in the process. There were underlying issues that were more important, the guy was just a trigger that pushed her over the edge.

Suffice to say that we've adopted an openness and honesty policy and are both in a better place in our marriage than we've been in a long time. There's still work to do, but we can look back and see that the worst is over.

UA time, which I thought would be so hard to do, is coming more naturally--to the point where I'm not actively thinking of how to achieve it. In other words, it's how it should be.

There were a lot of casualties, though. Our friends took my side in all this and never got over it with W. The price you pay, I suppose. We're looking for a new church as these folks are there.

I'll always appreciate the support they gave me, but now I almost resent that they cannot get over something I can move past. I hate it, we both really enjoyed that church, but don't see an alternative there and trust that God has a plan for us with it.

Another update, would appreciate the input from you guys because I think I'm slipping.

SF has started to really dwell on me, the last time for that was back around April I think. W says that she just doesn't have that desire and could go the rest of her life without it. We've never been like horny teenagers, but I never had reason to complain.

She's seen a new psychiatrist who's adjusted her anti-D meds, I think it's making progress. She also added her on Welbutrin, which is supposed to counteract most libido problems caused by anti-d medications.

But, while I think the depression is a major factor here, I think her lack of desire is just the ILYBINILWY thing. With two kids, we went so long just putting each other on the back burner that it's a logical consequence.

W and I have talked about this openly numerous times. She feels terrible that she cannot do this, but says she just doesn't feel that connection. I do understand that men and women define sex differently, and do have (I think) an idea of where she is coming from. She says she thinks about it all the time, to the point that both of us dread going to bed.

She did try about a month ago. Without going into too many details, it reminded me of those stories of women in the 1950s that would think of the grocery list while their husband "did his business." We talked about this at length, with no resolution obviously. It is a horrible memory.

I'm sad that I'm in this boat. I've generally needed SF to feel a connection. To feel loved, to feel ok, to feel accepted, to feel that everything is going to be ok, to feel that I can trust this person with anything, just to feel.

With her it's the opposite, sex is secondary as many women feel, and we're at a standstill, a catch-22--who goes first? I do, but I'm so worn out mentally that it's a monumental struggle to keep putting myself second.

But then I don't have much reason to complain, I say. I have so much GOOD in my life, so much going for me that I, honestly, hate to complain on these boards given the horrors that so many are going through. I have a W that wants to make things better, that this isn't "as good as it gets" to quote a Jack Nicholson movie.

I contemplate divorce every day, but recoil at the road that would take us down and, somehow, manage to find a minuscule thread of new resolve to repair this. But it's hard when you feel like you're the only one doing the work. I'm tired of being tired, tired of being the one to put on the happy face, tired of holding it all together so that our kids won't come from a broken home like me. Tired of being in a marriage just for the kids. Just tired. It's not what I want, I want more than this and I want it with the woman that I married.

I'm withdrawing and have told her as much. She sees it, agrees, but says she just cannot help how she feels re: SF. To do otherwise would be fake and would be an insult to me, you know?

She says she's now scared to initiate SF because of the elephant in the room. What if it's like that failed attempt a month ago? God help me, there's too much thought being put into this. But how do you create spontaneity? By meeting her top EN's, I know. She says the only reason she'd have SF is for me, which is a good thing, I know, but still...

By me withdrawing, we get into a cycle similar to how we've handled things in the past. I don't want to meet her EN's and around and around we go. But we make good roommates. That's awful.

I dread 9 pm because that's when we go to bed. Me initiating anything is off the table, I've told her as much and she appreciated the honesty.

We did fill out the EN's questionnaire about three months ago. Her top ones were family commitment, domestic support and something else that I don't recall...financial support I believe. In other words, things that she agreed I do quite well.

Sorry this is so rambling, just need to write this all down.

So, to summarize...

1. I'm not getting my top EN met (SF)..with good reason because...
2. I'm withdrawing with plenty of DJ's, almost all unfounded, and not wanting to meet her EN's. It's self destructive and I know it.
3. I don't want #1 and #2 above.

I want to read HNHN with her. I've read it, but she never showed an interest in it. Suggestions on where to go here?

Any thoughts or comments are certainly welcome.

Yo, saddest here under a new screen name.

I call NONSENSE on this.

Have been on ALL of the AD's in pretty much EVERY permutation and combination.

If she is taking an SSRI, you can add Wellbutrin until the cows come home and guess what? She's more alert, but STILL DEAD FROM THE WAIST DOWN.

See if you can get her off of the SSRI's. Ask her doctor.

Hey, I know it's not politically correct, but the truth is that us depressed women? We LOVE SF. It HEALS us.

Hey saddest, good to hear from you.

Hope things are looking up?

I don't know if cymbalta is an SSRI or not, but I think the depression is one mean [censored] and I'm surprised at how it has affected us all.

I think the downward slide started when my taker ran my giver over with a Mack truck. I know what I need to do, it's just digging up that bit of resolve that is tough.

This time of year should be better than this. Trying to put on a show for the kids sakes. I sometimes wish I could go back to when all I worried about was whether Santa would fit down the chimney.

My five year old son told me the other day that he couldn't wait to grow up. I had to take a deep breath there, to avoid saying something that would allude to what happens when we do. To avoid crushing his little heart.

Cymbalta is an SNRI (it acts on norepinephrine). I can't vouch for its sexual side effects, but I was on a standard dose for a while and I thought my heart was going to explode out of my chest.

Would either of you consider her meeting some of your need with sexual contact other than intercourse (hopefully for a limited time) -- hand or oral? With no expectation that she HAS to become aroused or more? It takes some pressure off her.

In my work as a family doc, I hear the sequence you guys might be following many times. Wife tired, depressed, meds, whatever-- declines sexual contact. Husband hurt by rejection, stops initiating. Paradox for (most) women, the longer they go without sex, the more they can do without it, so they will not intitate. Opposite for (most) men, of course. If wife can be drawn into sexual activity in a less intense way, sometimes starts to feel a bit aroused, and sometimes can go from there (over longer period of time, not that episode usually). Husband, of course, has to avoid feeling hurt that the feeling is not more mutual, that is just where you have ended up now.

Often hard to discuss, so emotionally loaded. Not sure fire of course, and needs to be combined with meeting wife's other emotional needs, but worth a try if POJA finds it to be acceptable.

Oh boy, does this sound familiar!

For years and years, I was too tired, unaroused and not getting my ENs filled. Meanwhile my husband was not getting his ENs met and feeling lonelier and lonelier inside our marriage. It didn't get any better as the kids grew up - it got worse as they go to bed the same time as us practically and we have thin walls*...

He had an affair, but we are recovering really well and have obviously talked about SF a lot. There have been some books recently tellng women to just do it regardless of how they feel initially. I haven't read them but have read excerpts in the papers and from my side of the SF drought, they actually make a lot of sense.

I think a lot of women genuinely do lose their mojo after child birth. Hormones, exhaustion, whatever. And then, they have children hanging off them for years - many years if you have several children and a large gap. During that time, men can get lonel, lose confidence and give up making advances. So how do you know when your mojo is back?

I think as a woman you have to do a sort of duty bonk on a regular basis. You have to try and enjoy it and certainly try and make sure your husband enjoys it. When your mojo starts to come back, you will be the first to know it! And in the meantime, you will hopefully be getting affection and intimate conversation etc - and a husband who is less likely to have an affair!

I didn't do this so I can't guarantee it. When we went through hysterical bonding I was amazed how sexy I felt, having felt dead below the waist for about 10 years. My mojo had come back some time in the interim and I didn't know it - what a waste! We are still having a great time 11 months on. It's getting better, even at my age, all the time so I don't believe it is hysterical bonding any more.

* We have the telvision on in the bedroom for noise cover. Am I the only lady who gets turned on by the late night news as background music? But actually I don't mind the kids knowing we have sex - I want them to know what a happy marriage entails!

One implication of this is that I think it is worth considering not backing off from SF but try and find the books I mentioned and POJA their suggestions.

We've actually discussed this, but it just feels *wrong* you know? Almost insulting, pity sex I suppose. I don't know, it's a mess. She's said she is now so concerned with performance that that is holding her back. That there's so much underlying pressure that it's making it worse. I can empathize with that.

The cycle you mentioned is dead on.

Thanks for the insight BlueMum, I've heard (and so has the W) that sometimes you have to fake it to make it. Sure, that'd be great but also would make me feel guilty.

After our last trial run, we both talked for a few hours about it and other things. We both agreed it felt awkward, but she insisted that she didn't do anything that she didn't want to do and to not feel guilty about anything. The whole act was just so impersonal even though neither wanted it to be.

Now that we know how the last time ended, we're both scared to repeat history--her all the more so, me much less so. For me, practice makes perfect, just have to throw yourself into some situations if you want to get out of them.

Ugh.

AD's take a major toll on libido. I was on Zoloft once and actually prayed that the significant other wouldn't try anything because I simply wanted to sleep.

Same with some others I tried. The AD's are probably a big factor of the equation.

As far as all the other stuff goes, I believe a lot of a woman's desire for SF lies in her feelings about you and how well you fullfill her emotional needs.

She obviously has enough of a libido to seek attention from another man.

Find out what makes her tick, but the AD's are a big part of why she feels nothing.

Yep, believe this is a key factor but proving elusive. That is, what *should* make an impact, or what used to, doesn't seem to as much these days.

She and the psych are tweaking her meds, we just spent about 1/2 hour talking about it. She said she's tired of tweaking things...I don't blame her.

On the combo that she's on now, she's generally emotionless, just kind of there and somewhat mellow. It's hard to have a conversation with someone when you get a one word answer, and we talked about this as well. She said she meant no malice or anything and appreciated getting the outside-looking-in perspective.

Oh well.

An update of sorts...

Wife's EA with co-worker started around June 2010 and ended around October for, I suspect, about a month. I think it's coming back because, lately, I'm getting the familiar fog babble....

1. I just don't know that I want to be married.
2. I don't know what I want.
3. I just don't feel that connection with you.
4. [Various statements rewriting history]
5. I'm tired of trying [Oops, I didn't know she was trying]
6. I love you [but there's an unsaid "but" there]
7. We're just roommates.
8. I'm tired of hurting you. To which I replied "then stop"
9. I just don't know if I have anything more to give. [Oops again, didn't realize you were giving that much these days]

I've decided that I'm in this marriage for the following reasons:

1. I (still?) have hopes for better days.
2. I don't want to see my kids only half of the time as would happen with 50-50 custody.
3. I don't want my kids calling another man daddy.

There's no real proof to be had of an EA by snooping, it's just my gut feeling. Her parents know, she's lost all of her friends because they took my side so that's out, and I just don't know what else to do.

I really want to start sleeping in the spare bedroom, to just disengage from all this...a quasi-Plan B I guess, just SOMETHING! But there's no way she would leave the house and I don't want to because, well, I'm just not going to.

She acts fine around me all the time, you wouldn't know something was wrong except for the no SF since last May or so. It's like she's not wanting to totally commit, but not wanting to totally break. Cake eating I guess.

Thoughts? What do y'all think of the separate sleeping arrangements? We're still in the same bed and I feel no control at all--just looking for a stand to take.

I asked my W if we should sleep in separate rooms. She kind of laughed and said "no" like it was the dumbest thing I'd ever said.

I just feel like a doormat for sleeping in the same bed, not even knowing if the EA is back on or not. As my W said, we sure do make good roommates--but roommates typically don't sleep together.

I'd leave the house if we didn't have kids. Kind of stuck it seems.

Anyone have any insight or have thought the same things? Truth is, I think I just want to hurt my W like she's hurt me but know, deep down, that it wouldn't be right. If the opportunity arose, I'd be ripe for a RA but know that I could never take that step. I could never do what she's done to me. I'm above that. Take the high road then?

Our ditsy MC suggested a separation to me about a month ago. I told her that was just practice for divorce and to please not suggest that to my W. She said ok. I haven't been back to see the MC, but W did and doesn't seem unhappy with her. Ugh.

My WW and I are having problems with sleeping arrangements. She refuses to sleep in our bed because �that is what you do with someone you love�. She wants me to rotate sleeping on the couch so she gets the bed one day; I get it the next etc.

My response was �I will not leave my marital bed so that you can lay in it and text OM all night long, you are welcome to share the bed with me but I will not share it with you and OM, physically or emotionally.�

She wants the bed so she can be closer to the kids and feels that I am punishing her and trying to keep them away from her. I told her she is welcome to return at any time but that I will not be leaving. We are also seeing a MC (who is versed in MB). We did an activity to list possible sleeping arrangements that would be acceptable to both of us. After talking about rotating, moving out, and any number of other ideas we agreed that we could get rid of the big bed and have 2 smaller beds in the same room. I am not sure this is ideal or how well that would work in your situation.

I also understand part of you wanting your WW to hurt like she has hurt you. This is epically true when WW continues to hurt you and have no care for your feelings. I try to remind myself that this is not a game, that there is no points, and that there will either be 2 winners or 2 losers at the end of this (more with children of course).

You're right, it's not a game and I keep trying to remember that.

I did order a monitoring thing that I'll try to put on her cell phone tonight. Her phone is one of those touch-screen jobs and it's a nightmare to snoop. Three times I've accidentally dialed a number while going through the recent calls.

How I haven't gotten caught is a mystery, but this is the last avenue that I can see as to whether or not anything is going on.

Though it'd kill our finances, I wish she'd get fired from her job. That'd definitely crimp the thing with OM. But, she doesn't get along with her boss and is actively looking for something else. Here's hoping.

Well, so far the cell phone spy software is a bust. It pulled up everything since October, when she got the phone, and it's clean. Now, I don't know if it pulled up things that were deleted or not.

I'm still checking, though. I've got it so ingrained in my head that she's cheating, that I don't feel anything when I don't see evidence of it. Could it really be over? What if it isn't?

Maybe me thinking she's cheating gives me some "reason" for all this. It's like I've been focusing on an A for so long that now I'm burned out. That breaking up an A is the easy route to take, while correcting 14 years of us neglecting EN's is obviously so much harder to do...especially when you're the only one that seems to be trying.

I feel like I'm just going through the motions here. I'm burned out as people warn when doing a Plan A.

But W acts like nothing's wrong.

Hmmm...could she have gotten another phone?

I don't think so unless someone else is paying for it and she keeps it at work. The more I think about it, I think she's just checked out of the marriage and is waiting me out.

From recent conversations, she does resent the stew out of me for trying when I didn't years ago. To nearly everything "new" she responds "Well you didn't do that before" or "I tried for a long time to get you to ____." Well, I could say the same thing and we went over that.

The difference is that I recognize that the past is the past--you cannot do a thing about it except either get over it, move forward, learn from your mistakes or keep rehashing it. She cannot seem to move to that point.

My wife said something similar to me not long ago.

I was attempting to talk about something related to our relationship and she asked me why I was trying now since I never cared before.

I said people CAN change! I'm proving it day by day and sometimes slip back into a bad habit but always manage to catch it. I am always on constant guard with myself and my actions.

I just don't think so, North. That one just doesn't pass the smell test. Can you do some snooping? I suspect she's got another phone. Here's the good thing: she won't want to leave it at work. If she's got one, it will be somewhere she can get to at any time. Have you snooped through her car? Her drawers? Coat pockets? Shoes in the mud room? Think. Where would she hide something?

As an example, here's a conversation we had tonight. We have this short book that I thought we may both enjoy reading together. It's by a minister Andy Stanley and she had purchased it a few months ago for us to read. We got sidetracked, didn't get around to it and, for some reason, I thought of it tonight.

Me: Hey I found that Andy Stanley book, want to read it later on tonight?
W: Ummm, sure, ok.

An hour later,

W: I'm tired, going to bed. I don't want to read that book.
Me: Ok, that's fine.
W: Why do you want to read it?
Me: Why not? Thought we'd enjoy it.
W: But why?
Me: Why not? [both of us are smiling through this exchange]
W: I've tried forever to get you to read things and you wouldn't. [A little revisionist here, but mostly true]
Me: Well that was a long time ago.
W: Oh I've gotten over it [things from the past, not just the book].
Me: Then why do you keep bringing it up? [things from the past]
W: I don't want to read the book.
Me: [Light hearted] Ok, that's fine. Why didn't you just say so the first time?
W: I dunno.

Ahh, the games we play. I'm too old to be playing games like a teenager and am tired of reliving the last fourteen years and having to second-guess everything I do.

I guess it's common for some spouses to just flat-out resent any positive changes when they weren't there before?

This fits me as well. It's exhausting.

Ugh, just remembered her company gave her a cheapo phone that they pay for. I'll have to look for it, but have never seen her use it. It's been a while and I'm not even sure she still has it.

EDIT: Found it in her purse, it's one of those flip-phones that came out a few years ago before phones got so complicated. It's clean. No internet, so that's good. A sim card reader should suffice. Will have to see how much those are.

Okay, I'll give up some of my snoop spots and give you a few I thought of for your sitch. Maybe it'll be in one of these:

Shoes in the closet. An older pair that she doesn't wear.
Gym bag. Makeup bag.
Old pair of gloves in the closet. Feminine ones, not a pair you would put on by mistake.
Sanitary napkin box.
Old jackets or coats.
Old handbags that are easily accessible to her.

Look in areas close to the bedroom and bathroom. It would be easy for her to grab the phone on her way to the bathroom. Look there.

I edited my response, but it was actually in her purse. Pretty easy, but thanks for the hiding spot list--you never know when that'll come in handy.

The phone's low-tech by today's standards which is good.

Dang, I've been in snoop mode too long! Talk about not thinking of the most obvious place, LOL!

I spoke too soon. Of the fifty calls made since 12/6/2010, two were to OM on 1/7/2011. One at 7:10 am for 25 minutes, the next at 8:30 for 25 seconds.

No suspect listings on calls received or text messages. No texts at all, actually, and it's pretty obvious (from the call history) that the phone is otherwise used for work-related needs. It doesn't seem to be used that much.

They do work together--he's an accountant and, unless they intended to, would normally have little reason to interact.

I know what I have to do (demand NC) but how do I do this without revealing snooping? Just say, "You guys work together, that isn't going to work for me even if you claim it's only a working relationship, you've got to end all contact with this POSOM." NC which means quitting her job and us, very probably, heading to bankruptcy court that same week. Then again, a divorce would probably end the same way.

But, still, we'd now have the financial stress on top of everything else. Wonderful.

I'm going to stop writing before I get too PO'ed about how STUPID waywards can screw up the lives of people and young children!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EDIT: Can anyone share a story (post a link maybe?) where NC meant quitting the job and ruining the family financially? What a waste, makes me sick.

North, you don't tell the WW how you know about broken contact, just that you do. You don't have to convince her of your evidence. She knows NC has been broken.

I haven't read a thread on here describing a wayward losing their job after exposure and the family goes down in financial ruin.

North, don't let fear control you. What if your WWs job was terminated today? Would you throw your hands up and go file for bankruptcy? I would think not! Your WW would find another job. And I don't want to hear about the economy. The classifieds in my area are listing plenty of jobs, and I don't live in a hot-market area.

Such an obvious point, I don't know why I hadn't thought of that!

I think it's going to hit the fan this weekend. Back in the summer, when I found out about OM, I started telling everybody about it. It wasn't the planned, cohesive exposure that's discussed here, but the main points were the same.

Fast forward a few months and all of her friends abandoned her, said it was hopeless, I should divorce her and said to call if I ever needed anything.

Her parents pretty much stuck their heads in the sand--kind of what I figured would happen.

I didn't tell her mother (her parents are divorced) until last week. Wow, instant ally. Then again, I've always gotten along with her, though she and my wife's relationship has always been strained.

So my wife and daughter are going over there tonight to spend the night, have a visit, etc. Speaking with her mother, though, it's pretty much going to be an intervention with her side of the family and complete surprise.

A few minutes ago I did call my wife and asked her to consider quitting her job. Now, a few months ago, she had said that she wanted to do so, had always wanted to be a SAHM for the kids, but the money had always stopped it.

She said she'd think about it and didn't sound upset or anything. She didn't ask me why I wanted her to quit, but I had told her the reasons (OM) months before. But, as the money wasn't there (and I naively thought she could do NC while working with the guy) I stupidly let it drop.

So, do y'all think I did ok by broaching the subject like that? That is, I didn't say "QUIT YOUR JOB NOW!!!" but, rather, asked her to. I second-guess nearly everything now, got to quit doing that and just go for it.

Anyone have tips for follow-up talks about quitting her job and NC...especially if she's on the fence? While she's been actively looking for another job for the last four months, I want this to happen NOW and not wait another month for a relationship with OM to advance.

I figure I've got a day to plan my next move. I'm not ready for Plan B, yet.

As I mentioned, my W and daughter went to stay at her mother's for the weekend. On the side, her mother had said she was going to have a talk to W about our marriage. Her mother also told me of a conversation she had with her son (my wife's brother) about a month ago:

MIL: I kept Northwood3312 and W's kids the other day while they went out to eat for their anniversary.

Brother: What? I didn't know they were still married.

MIL: Uh, yeah, they are.

So, apparently, her mother had my W's cousin (a married woman who was very concerned about this) bring it up to her tonight by saying, "You know, I heard from your brother that he didn't know whether you were still married. What's that about?"

I don't know the details (yet) of what transpired, but did see the following text message dialog between by W and her brother:

---------------------------------------------

Wife: What do you mean telling mom that you didn�t know that H and I were still together? Where are you getting your info these days?

Brother: I always hear things third hand. Glad to hear you are still together.

Wife: Who was that 3rd hand that told you that? They may know more than me.

Brother: I didn�t make it up. I�m going to let it be. Mom needs to let things be.

Wife: Thank you. She actually had [my cousin] ask me.

Wife: Ok, this is going to bother me. Just tell me if it was a family member. I�m not mad, just curious.

Brother: You got it right.

Wife: Thanks.
-----------------------------------------------

What's your take on the bolded part in blue above?

The "third party" was likely my W's stepmother. The second party was my BIL's wife, and by the time he heard it he had missed the part of "they are having problems" and assumed that we had divorced. My W and her B don't talk that much and live 90 miles away so it's easy to see why he would think that.

I also spoke with my W's stepmother this evening. Told her about the problems, that I wanted to rebuild this marriage and family, and asked for her support in separating my W from any A partner.

She said she had known about it from last summer (W had told her) but when she confronted W about it they didn't hear from her in two months. Quite the rebuff and I remember it, just didn't know the reason behind it.

She asked for OM's name, said they in no way supported that and just didn't understand why W was doing it. She added that OM definitely had to go and would do whatever she could to help. She added, though, that she was scared that W would go cold again and they wouldn't see their grandkids. I told her not to worry about not seeing her grandchildren, I'd make that happen.

No word from W yet. They're due back early in the morning so that we can try a new church.

Sorry this is so long...but thank you all for your input, advice and support.

Bit of an update...

Sunday

W and DD get back and we go to a new church. It was nice, I enjoyed it and our son is friends with another boy that goes there. Afterward, we go to that couple's house, eat lunch, let the kids play. It's obvious my W would rather be somewhere else.

That afternoon, I notice from the cellphone spyware that my W has been checking a Yahoo email account. No, she doesn't use Yahoo for her normal email and I've tried everything I can think of to get that address but...nothing.

Around 6 pm she glances at her cell and then quietly takes it with her to the bedroom. And locks the door. Keep in mind our kids are right here.

Checking the cellphone spyware, she used that time to check four email messages and sent one reply. With the phone she has, the software cannot display email messages to me. I just see the URL.

She goes to bed around 9 and, by midnight I am fuming. As I'm getting in bed, I say that I don't know how in H she is sleeping right now. Well, turns out she took a Xanax because church just stressed her out. Guess God is working on her.

She wakes up and, though I'm not yelling, I tell her that she has some nerve to come into the bedroom, lock the door and cheat on me while our kids are right there in the living room. I tell her to go sleep upstairs.

Well, it hits the fan there. She's furious and let's it slip "How'd you know?" and then corrects herself. Taking the advice given here, I just say "I know!" Typical WS response, I'd imagine. She denies everything, goes to sleep on the couch and returns about 30-minutes later.

I tell her that she hasn't earned the right to get mad here. I ask her if she seriously blames me for not trusting her when she has done absolutely nothing to make me trust her. She said no, she doesn't. I ask if I can trust her (trust but verify as they say) and she says...

"I know you don't trust me, so just do what you have to do."

Guess that's a "no"?

Monday

We go visit her mother. W is quiet and avoids both of us. Her mother knows the story and is beside herself but doesn't confront. My W suspects, though, that there are no secrets here and the guilt is all over her face.

But, W is, apparently, content to pretend like nothing happened though we did have a few nice talks about the kids.

Tuesday

We go to counseling and, after a recap of Sunday's conversation, she again denies any relationship with OM...other than work. Vomit vomit! I then let her know where I stand in no uncertain terms.

-That I'm here to work on this marriage
-That there is NO ROOM in our marriage for a third party
-That this is going to have a profound effect on our kids as it obviously had on her with her divorced parents
-That me and the kids are, basically, defenseless to her trying to destroy our family and that it isn't about HER anymore. It's about all of us.
-That it took us years to get where we are, and it won't correct itself without effort. Being passive isn't an option.
-I asked if she was ok seeing her kids only 50% of the time. No, she said. Well, why don't you ask them if it's ok with them since you're wanting to do it anyways? What do I tell them when they wake up in the middle of the night asking "Where's mommy?"

Already shellshocked from Sunday, she was absolutely speechless and teared up. She couldn't respond at all.

As I'm picking up the kids from school, she calls and says she's an emotional wreck and doesn't want the kids to see her like this. For once, she's doing the right thing and not just thinking about herself. She says she's going to drive around a while. I just "ok, see you later" and hung up. I couldn't care less, I'm in war-mode and done taking any crap. She's messing with my family and that isn't going to fly. I'm not laying down on this one and she knows the gig is up.

In the three hours that she's gone (to a Mexican restaurant), I've spread the word with family and her phone is ringing off the hook. I think she was alone at the restaurant and had sent her a text asking as much. She said she was. Who the H knows, I couldn't leave the house with the kids being here asleep.

So she comes home and, I swear to God, acts like nothing happened. Is that typical behavior? It defies reason. We watch a little TV, she acts pleasant and then goes to bed.

Oh, her step-mother told me today that her sister found my wife's second (work) phone a while back. There were text messages between W and OM that were "not work related." MIL didn't know the details, but said she'd get back to me with them as soon as she could.

As I've been going on somewhat circumstantial evidence here, I really need to hear about those texts. My next step is to get a SIM card reader for her work phone and see if the deleted texts can be recovered.

My wife has successfully and quite seriously peeved off everyone though, unfortunately, she hasn't been confronted by family, yet. I think it's coming, but that's somewhat out of my hands as they are concerned that she'll shut them out and keep the grandkids away. They're probably correct in that assumption, though I've said I would still take them to visit.

The exposure is done, but there's one last place...

Any tips on exposing this to my wife's workplace? I'm inclined to do a phone call since I know who her boss is but have never met her. If I confirm that it was a work phone with the texts, that's better ammunition, wouldn't you say?

I need to get her out of that job. Though once open to the idea of quitting her job (back when she was working on the marriage) she is not resisting. Figures, should have taken advantage of that opportunity when I had it.

Her family is 100% in agreement that the job has to go. I feel somewhat better having that support system.

There are templates on letters that you can send to her workplace on the newly betrayed thread. You should mail letters and CC at least 2 other people so no one will be tempted to just throw it away and sweep this under the rug. Make sure that you mention a potential sexual harassment lawsuit in your letter. It IS truth. Someone, even someone other than your WW and OM, could sue the company for allowing an affair to take place in the workplace. This usually gets their attention.

When you exposed to the family members and friends, did you tell them not to say anything? You actually want them to confront your WW. Ask them what the best outcome for your WW would be and what the best outcome for their grandchildren would be. Let them know that exposure is meant to put pressure on the affair and the only way your marriage is going to recover is if you get this affair ended PRONTO. That should set a spark under them.

Do you have info on OM? Have you exposed to his side? Also, someone in your family, or your WWs family could have a "chat" with him? Most OM give up their APs when they become to much trouble.

Disclaimer: I am not an attorney!

It seems to me that it would be better to send a paper letter. Preferably certified and addressed to her boss, so he/she has to sign for it. It's easy to ignore or blow off a phone call or even an email, but people tend to take paper letters seriously.

There is a boilerplate HR exposure letter floating around here on SAA. I hope someone smarter than me can fix you up with it.

You're on the right track. I wish there was a high-five smiley. I don't feel comfortable giving another guy a hug...

Need input on this. I just checked my W's work cell phone and it had a text message that had come through this evening.

OM: Still at Belk? [it's a department store]

My reply: No, my wife's asleep. Hello, [OM's first and last name].

Tomorrow should be interesting, but I did the right thing, right? I cannot believe I'm second-guessing myself here.

The best way to do a workplace exposure is in writing, sending the letter certified with several cc's on it. This way, the respondents are forced to take official action, versus ignoring your exposure. The letter should go to the director of Human Resources, a key VP and both affairees direct managers.

Developed by Brits Brat, board member and corporate attorney

To Whom It May Concern:

This letter is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics.

WS and WS are involved in an extramarital affair that is taking place, primarily, in the workplace. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it also involves the inappropriate use of company resources and assets. WS and WS are using company time and company resources to further their affair. If you check the call histories on their office and cell phones along with their workstation computers, you will find the two of them are spending an inordinate amount of what should be productive work time to further their sexual relationship.

If you have any questions, please call me at xxx-xxxx. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.

Regards,

BS
_________________________

So her mother will not support your marriage? Can I ask why she won't help you by opening up a can of whoopass on her daughter?? If she is too uncaring to speak to her daughter, then I would make sure your WS KNOWS that her mother knows. I am sorry her mother won't support you.

Are there any other family members to whom you have exposed who won't help your marriage?

Thanks for the information on the workplace--all good points that, I'm sure, any business would consider.

When I exposed, I didn't tell them to confront and didn't tell them not to. Should I have? All I said was....

1. I love my wife and want to save my marriage.
2. This OM (gave them his name) is threatening my family and marriage. He must be removed from the picture.
3. I would appreciate your support in ending this affair.

I have OM's name and picture. He's 38 and recently divorced. I see that their house sold in December. Yep, he's on the market "legally" and that's not the ideal enemy to have. No kids, per my W but I take all that with a grain of salt.

Do you think it would do any good to try to find his ex-wife? I know her full and maiden name (gotta love the internet) but no address that I can find. So, no, I haven't exposed to OM's side.

Wow, thanks for that ML!

I would be paying an inperson visit to this [censored] tomorrow. He should be hearing from you EVERY TIME you even suspect there is any contact. Leave your pistol in the car, but let him know holy hell is coming his way if he doesn't buzz off.

Have you exposed the affair to this loser's parents and facebook friends?

No, no more family members left. But, after seeing and replying to that text from OM (see a couple of posts above) I think things are going to change tomorrow.

To-date, her family has just been silently PO'ed and are afraid of what my W's reaction will be.

I'll put it to them that the proof is there (will tell them about the text) and that I need them to step in. I can only hope that they will do so, but have stressed that, as long as I'm on this earth, their grandchildren will know their grandparents.

I'm barely treading water here and feel like I've taken a big dive since responding to that text...anything stick out that I should be doing?

The point of exposure is to get get as many people as possible to speak to her. I would call each and every one of them back and say "we need your help. I am asking you to use your influence to persuade WW to end her affair. She cares about you very much and hearing it from as many ppl as possible may get through the fog."

Otherwise, the value of exposure is completely wasted. Some will refuse to speak to her, because frankly some ppl don't give a damn. But even those exposures can be valuable if you tell your WW that you have told that person about the affair.

Afraid of WHAT? Are these people that timid? You need their help, northwood. I would encourage them to buck up here and start supporting your marriage. This is not the time for being timid.

Agreed. I just sent my two MIL's a text message telling about me replying to OM. I'll follow-up via phone tomorrow asking them to confront my W--it's 11:00 pm here now, a bit late.

I think they'll do it.

I'm going to cool off before I even think about going to her workplace. You guys know what my first instinct is, but me doing something stupid is bad for my kids.

My mind's a mess--I think I'll use what you said when I talk to them tomorrow.

I'll have to dig around, see what I can find about his parents. I did check for a facebook thing, but didn't see one. My W didn't have him as a "friend" and, actually, deactivated her facebook a few weeks ago. Wonder why she did that? Never made sense.

For some reason I feel different now. No longer afraid or drained of energy. I'm ready for this fight. I feel like today is the day I start fighting for my marriage...not just working on it. Even though I've been trying for months, tonight feels different.

WEll, I am not angry, so I can speak from an objective viewpoint and tell you that the workplace exposure will be of tremendous value. It will be helpful to your wife, the OM, the workplace and your marriage. There is no downside here at all.

Can you set up a fake page and do a search? They might have you blocked. And hopefully you can find his parents. While it is no guarantee, parents can often be very influential.

Maybe today is the day you decide to stand up for your marriage? Bravo to you!

Crud, guess I need a "real" plan now that I've exposed and WW will know that the gig is up.

Plan A?

So when she lashes out tomorrow about me sending that text to OM, what's my response to be without doing a LB? That feeling of power is wearing off...I don't trust myself not to have an AO, etc.

EDIT: Found the carrot/stick thread, think I can get a good start on this.

I'm having a little trouble visualizing this encounter. Any ideas? Just pop my head in and say Hello like that computer from the movie 2001? Loudly announce who I am and what my W and OM are doing? Make a scene?

My head's going a million miles an hour, hope I'm not asking a bunch of dumb questions that I should have had the answer to had I been better prepared.

Tell him you are WW's husband and you know about his affair with your wife. Tell him you will be fighting for your marriage and if he doesn't leave your wife alone, there will be hell to pay. Tell him if this goes to divorce that you will sue on grounds of adultery and have his sorry [censored] hauled into court to give evidence of this affair.

BUT... don;t do this until you have exposed him at the workplace and to his family. Then he will know you mean business.

And like I said, leave your sidearm in the car.

But, you haven't really exposed at all. Her family has not helped one bit and you have not exposed at work yet. AFTER you really expose, i would DEMAND she end contact with the OM or this will lead to divorce.


Try not to lash out at her because that sorry, brazen scumbag contacted her. Tell her that better not happen again!! Ask her why he is contacting her at all, and demand she end her affair.

So, tell him loud enough for others to hear without making a scene or resorting to firearms. Got it.

I think you already have the right idea. Loud and calm..... and within earshot of many others!

Thanks, ML. I thought about it and edited my post before you responded.

We're both in central time I guess (MS and TX)...getting late and going to be a long day tomorrow. Thanks for the input and for taking the time.

Night, friend!

Absolutely. Tell them you are counting on them to support your M and your family.

I'm still laughing over your response to OM on the cell! You done good, north! Okay, I might have added "You POS" when you typed his name...but that's me looking in after the fact.

That guy shouldn't be able to take a deep breath without you looking over his shoulder! He needs to know that you are ON IT and will make his life a HELL if he comes around your wife!

Good job on the cell phone.

This is why it's a good idea to get everything down in writing and send it certified mail.

Your emotions may well run high, and you don't want her employer to suspect that you are just a nut-job who is jealous of anyone who gets near his wife. It is also easy to forget key things you might want to say, or to say something that will not be in your best interest.

A letter will serve you best: cold, business-like, factual, calmly demanding a response.

Flip-flop this backward thinking, north. Let them know that you need their help, and that their help will ensure that your family remains intact. So of COURSE their grandchildren will know their grandparents. Because you all are working together to get rid of this threat to your M.

WW has gone to see her mother today which, believe me, is a huge surprise. There's a lot of discourse there, and that she is voluntarily going to see her says something.

Her mother told me this morning that she was going to confront her when she got there.

I tried calling my FIL and his wife--no answer, left a message and then followed up with texts asking them to talk to WW about the affair. I followed the sample text that someone posted here earlier.

Regarding exposure to workplace, I think I may get somewhere speaking by phone to her boss who is a woman and, per my W's comments, already suspects something is wrong re: work performance. She and her boss used to work together at a different job and were good friends.

Plus, it'd be quicker than sending a letter and I really want this to go down today...all at once and, hopefully, with a discussion by her dad and step-mom.

Thoughts before I act?

If you feel that it is best to talk to her as opposed to sending an overnight letter, call her and make an appointment to meet with her personally. Take your evidence with you.
Your physical presence will make a statement, much more so than just hopping on the phone to make a phone call.

Do you think I have enough evidence? I have:

1. Verbal information from my MIL that they saw text messages *probably* on the work phone...definitely not her normal phone.

2. I have the one text on her work phone from last night.

JUST GOT THIS EMAIL FROM WW... I desperately need advice or suggestions on how to respond to it!!!

Do I have a good reason for talking to him, not by your standards. But the truth is (yes I know you are laughing at me using that word) is that i was so upset and messed up after counseling yesterday that I had no one to turn to to talk to. I sat there in the parking lot at borders and went through my phone directory and the sad thing is the only person I could call was [female friend].

When she had to get off the only other person there was to talk to is the one person I probably should not have turned to. But we have been friends. Hell I went and ate at Fernandos by myself because I have NO ONE else. (You can even go and ask them because I am sure you don't believe that either. I sat in a booth on the left side and ordered Fernados nachos and one bud light.) I was the only one eating alone so I should be easy to remember. Did i do wrong yes. Do I apologize, yes. (Not that it is what you want to hear) I [censored] up, yet again.

The problem I have with therapy is that we can act like everything is hunky dory then BAM out of what seems like no where I get all of that, then we leave therapy and all that is what feels like swept under the rug for the sake of the kids and we act like nothing happened. It is an emotional roller coaster. But you know that, I have kept you on it for a while.

You threw a lot of [censored] out but I am not the only one who has made our child cry. I am not the one who has called [DS] a little [censored], to his face, among other things. [Revisionist history here] The point is we have BOTH done things to make our children cry and feel inadequate. Don't start pointing fingers unless you look in the mirror.

You did make a good point, I hadn't thought of the fact of only seeing our children 50% of the time. That thought killed me. The most important thing to me are those children. Contrary to popular belief.

There is so much about me that you don't know...
Did I ever tell you that the reason I stopped talking to [female friend] was because she said I always looked so sad and was kind of depressing to be around. This was back last Jan/Feb of 2010. I was like what the hell did I say or do that was so damn depressing or bad.

I still don't know what I did to piss of [another female friend] so bad to quick talking to me and defriend me on facebook, she never would tell me, but I usually avoid female drama and don't talk about women behind their backs so I have no clue what that could be.

I never felt like you encouraged me to persure anything...whenever I mentioned teaching you would scoff and say, I don't think you would like it or i didn't think you liked kids. Then there was the consignment shop thing. If you understood how unhappy I was doing what I was doing why didn't or havent' you sat me down and helped me figure something else out. But instead just stood by the wayside. [This is true]

I am mad and insecure about our finances. I know that we both got ourselves into this mess but damn it you are the man and should be working and acting on a plan to get us out. Instead you say lets file for bankruptcy. Good one. You are the man, you are the head of the family and I guess I expected you to take care of these things. I always got frustrated how when things got tough you always wanted to spend more money, ie the patio set, the dining room set, taking a vacation, I wish you would have put your foot down and said lets save. We should not have been buying a wii but paying [censored] off. [Revisionist again, she wanted the vacation, dining set and Wii, but she's right about the money.] Hell we quit paying daycare and now my car we should be doing better not worse. I know it is a joint effort, I just expected you to take the lead.

I wish you really understood my depression, I know you try but its hard. I know its hard for you to live with someone with this disease as well.

Don't forget...back in year one of our marriage, I asked you if you were in love with me and you blew me off. I asked you how you were supposed to know when you were in love with someone. I don't know if you ever gave me an answer. [True]

There are things that I have never felt comfortable talking to you about that a wife should feel comfortable talking to a husband about. sex for example. I have never felt comfortable talking to you about it. Now that it is on the table I probably never will. I don't know why just never felt open with you like that. Maybe the same reason we have never been able to complement each other. Why is that do you think?

I am glad that you found God, and I am sorry for insulting you that way. I just was mad and frustrated because where was this when I needed it and wanted it most and when I was most in that place. [True]

I sometimes resent that and feel that the few social contacts we have have all fallen on me, which I have apparently [censored] all up. I know that you are not all that comfortable being mr social but just got tired of feeling like i was doing all the work to only have you half there. [True] I know you say you are there now, but I think I was checked out before you checked in.

I are very angrey, pissed, and other words that don't describe madness. I understand, you are right to feel that way.
I am not at work today. I drove to my mom's house and am with my mom right now.
What now, have you changed the locks?

Another email from WW, see below...I'm delaying responding because I think this is an opportunity and don't want to screw anything up by saying the wrong thing--working on marriage, OM, etc. etc.

i know how that came across reading it...it was not supposed to sound like a you didn't do this and that email.
I am sorry taht is how it sounded. I was trying to speak what has been on my head...I know you took it personally...(how am I not supposed to take it personally?) but these are things that probably should have been said a long time ago.
I am sorry.

Just spoke with my FIL. He's 100% on board and used a lot of words when talking about OM. Finally, he said he was going to call OM and tell him to get the F out of our lives. I gave him the number.

I tried calling OM, no answer of course. Left him a message and then sent a text saying the same thing:

OM, you are going to stay the [censored] away from my wife. You are trying to break up our family and have pis*ed off people in three states. You don't stand a chance against all of us. The party is over, the affair is over and the secret is out. Take my advice, you don't need this complication.


--Did I do ok?

I think you did great. Sorry it took me so long to respond to your previous question about exposure, but after reading your WW's email I had to go take a shower to wash all the entitlement garbage off.

Seriously - I went back to go through your thread so I could be sure of my response regarding exposure to the employer. True, you don't have a lot of physical evidence. But I would do it anyway. Anything causing this much disruption in a family is not a good thing and their employer needs to know about it. Make sure she understands that your WW has lost friends over the business of her 'friendship' with OM, the entire family is in an uproar, and that she is sneaking away from you to communicate with him.

One thing I missed: remember that company party you ended up not going to? Where she brought up the idea of bagging it at the last minute? A very similar thing happened in my sitch:
My H's company Christmas party was coming up and we were planning to go. The day before, he suggested we bag it because it was going to be boring/roads would be bad, etc. After D-Day it came out that he never intended for us to go because OW and OWH were going to be there, and he was afraid of a possible scene.
Your WW's outdoor party struck me as being a very similar situation.

I'm too new to offer advice on this just wanted to say two things.

Well done on your fight, you're doing the right thing.

And Melody you're the best.

Damn I love a good exposure thread.

Excellent.

Work on exposing his side of the fence.

WW is trying to get your buy-in on all the reasons she is unhappy in the marriage, therefore she had no choice but to find happiness in OM. Don't go there. Do not validate her justifications.

Your mantra:
Cheating is never right no matter what.
We can fix this.

North wood, would not call the boss to expose because she won't have to make it official that way. You need to do this in an official capacity rather than a personal capacity. It needs to go to human resources, a key vp and the boss in an official capacity. Do this right.

And I woiuld suggest you demand your wife end her affair and cut off contact with the OM. That shhould be your response to her fog babble email. "end your affair and then we can talk."

That is a massive amount of fog babble. I would respond with:

�Every time you contact OM it puts us back to square one. I should be the person you turn to when you wish to talk to someone. It hurts that you feel you can�t talk to me. OM should not be an option at all and shouldn�t be in your contacts anymore. NC is NC.

I own up to my mistakes in our marriage and I�m willing to work on them but they in no way justify your adultery or continued contact with OM. �

Interesting and very plausible that my case was the same way. I'll inquire when the time is right. Shouldn't be long, though.

Bingo. What surprises me is that it took me this long to quit being a doormat and stop this crap. What a difference a day (and exposure) makes.

There was considerable fallout between her mother and dad coming down on her for the affair. Thanks to this site, and to you guys, for showing me the tools that I needed.

I've stayed silent all day, but her last texts indicated that she completely effed this up, was sorry for what she had done, that she was done with OM and was going to quit her job effective immediately. That she wanted to know if I'd take her back.

For today, I'm willing to work on it, and am pleased to hear that, but as old Ronald Regan said, trust but verify. There will be a lot of conditions, but I won't be a tyrant in enforcing them. I cannot change my WW. But, I won't be a doormat, either, and there isn't any negotiation available for NC with OM.

We have a long way to go and the easy part is over, I feel. I've got some reading to do about how to repair this, but am not going to rush into anything lest it get shoved under the rug. We have a lot to address on both of our parts.

BUT, I refuse to own this affair and there was no excuse for it. PERIOD.

Of all things, I think it was me finally stepping up and saying "Enough!" that got us to where we got today. Funny, wish I had done it sooner. Better yet, wish I had done a lot of things differently over the years. But that man is gone, and you can only look at the past for lessons in what not to do.

Thanks for all the support, it means a lot that strangers on the internet share common experiences. I'll be back with a ton of questions, I'm sure, and will try not to write such long posts.

Got a question already. Is the first step a NC letter?

I want to caution you about something that is pretty typical at this point:
Your WW may be desperately plotting at this moment for ways to keep OM in her life. She may well try to negotiate with you, and it will likely be something like:
"You know, I thought about it, and it would be financially stupid for me to quit my job." And then she'll go on to explain how she'll be able to stay on the job and out of contact with OM.

THIS WILL NOT WORK. She HAS TO QUIT HER JOB. Do not allow her to manipulate you on this one.

Thanks for that reminder. I agree a billion percent and her family does as well. They've even offered financial support, but we all say that the job is going to go. I said she needed to quit effective today. We (the family and I) all agree that she is too weak (no boundaries) to continue being in that job. She'll relapse, for sure.

The only concession I have is that, if they need another week for her to wrap things up, that is fine IF she can do it from home and never step foot in that office again. Anything else is just too bad. The company will make it just fine.

Should I rethink that?

Do I have that "Exposure/D-Day" thing right in my signature? Wanted to get the lingo right should anyone not feel like reading 18 pages

I have managed businesses for years. I have had employees quit without notice. I have had to terminate employees without notice. None of my companies had to close because there was a question that 'only' the departed employee could answer. And I have NEVER had to call an employee who left under those conditions in order to wrap anything up.

I wouldn't even give her the option. Next thing you know, OM will be calling 'just to wrap up a loose end at work.'

If she has to go clean out her desk or locker, you go with her.

Me again. Ok, what should I do today?

1. NC letter
2. Cell phones--cancel hers or just keep it myself since it's that number that she has on job applications or what? Just trying to be realistic but cautious as well.
3. Email addresses. I'm going to want to see the secret email account. What about her normal account? Again, it's on job applications...but still! Should I change the password and relay anything important to her? Or just close it.

How do y'all do this?

I didn't even think of that, glad I have y'all to remind me of such things.

I just spoke to her, she's pretty nervous about talking to me and alluded that she was trying to prepare herself for a complete meltdown from me. It's not going to happen (AO), rest assured, but we'll be talking a good bit.

She said she was going to type up a resignation letter and leave it there in the morning before anyone else got there. That she was going to just get her stuff and leave as she didn't want to see anyone.

Ok, that sounds good. But I'll take your advice and go with her. Do I ask to do that or just do it? God, I cannot believe I can be so wishy-washy. My mind is numb after today.

You're doing great, North! Take a deep breath - it's been a busy day for you.

She wants to leave a resignation letter in the morning? Okay. Tell her you'll be going with her to do that.

Roger that.

My opinion as a FWW, Northwood, is that you go with her - Be Assumptive - LEAD - As in "Of course, I'm going with you! You and I are in this together - Our marriage is something that we value and protect together from this point on - We are a TEAM - I CHERISH you and will be there every step of the way with you"... She has said she is nervous - YOU are her rock - YOU are her support system - YOU are her soft place to fall [I know, ironic being that you are the victim - sigh...] - YOU are in her corner - Still standing even though she has delivered a mighty blow to you - YOU are her protector - Her HERO...Her MAN...

My .02...

Mrs. W

North, you've been pretty busy. Here's what I suggest for today:

Talk to your WW and get the story from her. Let her know your requirements for recovering the M, which should be:

SHE is to write a NC letter. You will read it, approve it and mail it to OM.
She is to leave her job immediately. You've already got that covered.
She is to give you all passwords and complete access to every account she's got, email, financial & otherwise.
I missed it - is she on FB? She needs to shut that down.
You will need to change her cell phone number. For today, switch phones with her.

She needs to disclose everything to you today. The rest of it can go til tomorrow, except for taking her cell phone. Get that today. I'm not sure where you are, time-zone-wise, but it's starting to get late. You can accomplish more of this tomorrow.

Go out to dinner to a place you both enjoy - take a break from this drama, because it can be exhausting. Remember, you're rebuilding Rome. And how many days did that take?

Tackle delivering the resignation letter and NC letter first thing tomorrow.

From what I've heard, I think that's what she needs now. Thanks for your two pennies!

Ok, for the NC letter I'll have her write it but, in the back of my mind, will have a MB NC letter as a template. Since SHE has to write this, that may be a fine line for me to ride but this has to pass muster.

Will get the passwords, email, etc.

She was on Facebook but cancelled the account a few weeks ago. She never said why.

I'll get the cellphone, too. It's going to be a mess with the myriad of job applications that are out there with that number on it, but that's the price that has to be paid, isn't it.

One last question. Other than having the email passwords and closing the affair account, shouldn't her "normal" accounts be closed as well? I guess just forward the new address to family (she lost all of her friends in this) and leave it at that?

Yes, they should. ANY avenue of potential contact has to be closed.

And: you'll need to buy a keylogger and get it on her computer. Without her knowledge, of course. It will be your eyes when you're not right there with her and it will alert you to any attempt at contact.
www.spectorpro.com
Get the eblaser. Worth its weight in gold.

I put eblaster on a while back. I suspect OM was tech savy and warned her to be careful. Maybe he got busted by his W when he cheated? Regardless, she doesn't know about it but there wasn't much to be found since she had her cell phone. Cell phones with internet access are the new thing now it seems.

Understood. But it's good to cover that base. Oh, and North? I'd make sure her cell phone no longer has internet capability.

Yep, that's on the list. Along those lines, any suggestions for getting that secret Yahoo email account without disclosing that her phone is logged? It's the only way I found out about it (still don't know the email address). That's going to be the test.

North,

I am new to MB, but I am tech saavy. Go to emailfinders.com. Sign up. You can look up phone records, email records, social networking records and get public background checks. They cost from $5 - $30 but well worth it. Enter your W's name and search. It will display email addy's associated with that name - also will show any social network listings for that name.

It will allow you to email that addy and show you a portion of that address so you are sure it is the right one. In your case it will be W***.yahoo.com with "W" being the portion they show you. From there you have to guess, but puts you closer to your answer. It may not be hard to guess - wasn't in the case of my W.

This may or may not work depending upon how much you know about the address or not and how secretive your W was when setting it up. Generally she has to link it to some legit info to get it, like another email address where she would have to confirm the new one when it first opens up.

Hope this works, or at least helps. Good Luck - rooting for you.

T10

Thanks for the tip, will take a look at it. I tried the "Forgot user name" by entering in various email addresses that may have served as backup. No dice.

It's been a long day, but here is how it ended. I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions in case I'm missing something. My WW got a big wake-up call today by her mom and dad. I saw how exposure, done firmly but tempered with caring and love, made a huge difference. I didn't envy her. In no particular order...

1. NC email sent to OM which said

OM, It was a mistake getting involved with you. Working on rebuilding my marriage and family and don't want any further contact from you.
Please respect my wishes. WW

2. Reply to NC email by OM said "I'll respect your wishes and will not contact you."

3. Wife deleted email accounts but did not disclose the infamous Yahoo email account. I'm wary of this.

4. Wife quit her job this afternoon. Obviously, no reason for me to expose to workplace though it was next on my list.

5. Wife agreed to full NC and that she would tell me if OM tried to contact her. She seems to realize the importance of this and was very humble this evening.

6. Wife gave me password for new email account. I reciprocated and gave her the password to my everyday email--but, my MB notifications go to my keylogger email, though, and that stays in my pocket.

7. Wife agreed to change cell phone number and, until that's done, let me have the phone.

8. Wife apologized, said she's sorry she hurt me and our family, asked for forgiveness but noted that she didn't expect me to come around immediately. She's still waiting for the other shoe to drop as I typically stew over things for a while (day or so) before reacting. I promised that if I felt angry in the next day or so that we'd discuss it. I have no history of yelling or violence--more of a silently peeved off kind of guy.

9. Wife wants to discontinue seeing current MC. She said it was of no good and I'd agree. Thinking about it now, exposure was the best thing I ever did. I'm amazed at the result.

10. Wife says she is not well and wants to get fixed (psychologically). She says there are underlying issues with her mother as well. She regrets having drifted from God. I think she's coming to terms with things and I saw a glimer of the "normal" wife that I married.

11. Wife says that the number one reason she decided to stay was for the kids. But, she feels that if she gets herself worked out and reconnects with God that her outlook marriage will work itself out.

Promising, I suppose, since the kids are the catalyst for this marriage at this time. Or is there a little fog babble mixed in there?

Ok, here's where we both LB'd each other:

I told her that it made me nervous to hear her phone ding with an email or text alert. I said that I was in self-preservation mode here and asked her, when the cell phone is changed, to discontinue text and internet on it.

That hit a nerve. She responded that texting was how she communicated with her sister [true, but it's also how you communicated with OM but I didn't say that] and could we negotiate that? This was all said with a roll of the eyes.

I didn't break eye contact and didn't say a word. About five seconds passed, and she said (sarcastically) fine, if that's what you want. I said thanks, I appreciate your doing that.

Later she said it really bothered her, that she knew she effed up, that I was right to be concerned, but she felt like I was grounding her or treating her like a 15 year old with the request to disable texting/internet.

I said "Well, I understand where you're coming from and it's not my intention to be an overbearing watchdog or to belittle you. I don't want to do it, but everytime I hear your phone ding I'll think of OM. It's a huge trigger for me. Do you see where I'm coming from?" Yes, she said.

In other words DAMMIT! YOUR NEW JOB IS TO MAKE ME TRUST YOU AND THIS ISN'T THE WAY TO DO IT!!

This is going to come up again. I think I handled it well by, basically, not saying much of anything, but would appreciate input on how to go about that.

Too, without the internet phone, she'll be forced to use her laptop (with keylogger) if she wants to access the suspected Yahoo email account. It's the one missing piece. If nothing turns up in the next day or so, I may breathe a little easier.

She will swing back and forth, it is an addiction there is a very good chance that she will contact him. As part of recovery she should be giving you full transparency, no drip feeding information, he other email account is a cause for concern. Keep to blocking Internet and testing it will make her think. If she uses controlling again keep to your script , do not waver , trust has to be earned, of she says she has revealed everything well you know differently.

If WW was using the browser on her phone to access the secret yahoo account, you might see that in the browser history, and then have a "legitimate" reason to ask her about it...and if there are any other email accounts she wants to disclose?

I still think you should expose OM at work. His employer should know the truth about why one of their employees quit with no notice. For all the employer knows, OM could just turn around and go after the next married woman in line - running the risk of a sexual harassment lawsuit or a crazed husband coming to the workplace and shooting the place up. At the very least it would put OM on notice that his antics will no longer be tolerated.

Agreed. It's one of my lasting regrets that I never exposed OM at his office. My FWW's life isn't the only one he ruined.

I AGREE. It will be a warning to him that he better not come sniffing around again.

Northwood, you are doing an AWESOME job of affair proofing your marriage! Your next steps will determine if your marriage really recovers or if it just remains a crippled version of the pre-A marriage. The way to recover your marriage is to create a romantic relationship using these concepts. That is the definition of a real recovery. I would put together a plan NOW because the vacuum your wife feels from the loss of her affair needs to be filled with something else, which hopefully is a great marriage.

If your wife doesn't want to go to counseling - and I can't say I blame her - I would get the Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook [they sell it cheap on the MB bookstore] and use the worksheets in there to follow the program outlined in Surviving an Affair and Lovebusters. The fastest way to fall in love again is to schedule 25-30 hours of undivided attention per week, meeting the top 4 intimate needs of conversation, affection, sexual fulfillment and recreational companionship. Without kids, tv or other distractions. Pull out the Undivided Attention worksheet in the back of that workbook, make copies and get into the habit of scheduling UA every week.

I would put together a plan for recovery NOW, northwood. Having no plan is a plan to fail.

North, what is your WW going to say as the reason she is resigning from her job?

She already quit and just gave them one of those generic form letters that you get off the internet.

Hey folks, wanted to run this by you and see what you thought. Mainly, I need to know if this is normal or not.

WW has set up a new email account for keeping a journal. I don�t feel right posting all of it, but need some insight. If y�all think I should delete this post, please advise. These are her words...

I figured this would be a good place to write my thoughts. this goes against all RULES set in place. MY gosh it is an email account that H doesn't have the password to!!! Im such a rebel! I am allowed to have my own thoughts for a minute! Not really because I know my keystrokes are being monitored.

Feeling somewhat trapped again. but i know it is the right thing to do for the kids. at this point i want nothing to do with my family or anyone else who knows of my actions. mostly because of embarrasement. so if that is the case i know it was wrong. i have issuses but now i have resentment in being treated like a teenager and a prisoner. All my previous email accounts have been shut down, i have quit my job with no notice, H has taken my cell phone until the number has changed and siad haid that he doesn't want the new number to have text or internet. I can understand some of the things and requests but some this is a lot to take in at once. I feel like a prisoner who has been strippd of her rights. It was the texting and internet on the phone that pissed me off. I mean really, if i wanted to get on the internet and contact OM I could always go to the library, but I'm not. I made a decison for my kids sake and I am going to stick by it, as long as my sanity can take it.

What did H think I was going to do? If I called OM, my dad would know, he gets the bill. Hell, my dad even tried to call OM yesterday. Don't know what he would have said.

H keeps saying that everyone is behind me and supports me. I have no clue what that means. I [censored] up and everyone is behind me? I don't want to see or talk to anyone for a long time.
I am now a prisioner in my own life and body.

I have issues to work out in my mind, body and soul. Can I do that and be a prisoner at the same time? I don't mind H having the passwords to my email accounts but i need one place to vent and as an outlet and this will be my place.

I want and need a better relationship with God. I truly believe that if I can get that back so many other things will fall into place. Maybe I can fall in love with H, maybe not. Maybe I can resolve relationship issues with my mom, maybe not. But at least I can be at peace with myself and in my heart which is what I need more than anything.

I did meet a great pastor yesterday. He really helped me come to some answers and get me on a track, which was good because, I was so far off. He is the one who said that if I can get my relationship right with God that everything there is Hope for everything else and everything else will fall in place like it should.

Threre are moments when I really am ok. I have been sorting through bills trying to create a budget trying to make this work. Then I call my dad and ask him to change my number and he asks if he needs to take texting off the phone and I feel like a GOD DAMN 10 year old who needs someone to hold their hand while they piss on a pot. For [censored] sake. Yes I [censored] up. But does everyone and their [censored] MOTHER have to remind me of this and then tell me they are proud of me. What the [censored] are they so [censored] proud of??!! That I made the decision they wanted me to make!!! That THEY felt was best. Well [censored] Them all. I made the decision that was best for me and best for my children. IF one more person tries to pat my head and tell me what a good girl I am I am going to SCREAM!!!

I am saying forget DD�s party. she is 3 and won't remember. I can't handle being around family and having them stare at me and knowing they have all been thinking and talking about what I have done behind my back.

If I really wanted to I could stay in contact with OM. But I don't. I know i have a long way to go in the trust factor that is understandable, i get that but i am ready to move on with my life and with my kids.

Can i scream yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2 things that jumped out at me.

1. She seemed to indicate that she knows you have a keylogger which would mean what she is writing is for your benefit.

2. At some point, (the vets will tell you to wait awhile so your intel isn't compromised) you should get her to come here. As a FWW, I would LOVE to talk to her as I'm sure would many others.

Whether she made up the above post for your benefit or not remains to be seen; however, I can definitely relate to some of her feelings. I will say you are doing the right thing. Sure she can go to the library and contact him but it is soooo much harder.

My DH didn't make me change phones but mine is closely monitored and we did change e-mail addresses but kept the old ones for awhile because all the kids school stuff was already done. He checks those as well...in fact, his phone alerts him when I recieve a new e-mail so he can check it before I do.

Good luck, you have done well.

Be her rock, you are taking an addict away from her drug and it is hard but she will respect you for it.

ok, color me confused. Why would she set up an email account as a dear diary? All she has to do is open up a WORD doc. Do you have any idea why she would open an email account to write that?

Could she be testing to see if you will find out?

I honestly don't want to get involved with her work anymore. I'm just flat worn out and think that OM got put on notice as best as possible. I just don't know and the text from the journal, plus the financial stress that is about to happen, has me down a bit.

I cannot quit now, but it feels like I'm dealing with the enemy in my W and am not sure how to approach her anymore. I WANT to follow the MB plan (it's worked so far!) but think she'll think it a bunch of internet hooey. While I know that's not the case, she's been extremely reluctant to do any "self-help" type of things.

That aside, I need to broach the UA process with her. From reading that journal, which is the best insight that I have to-date, what should I do here?

Beats the h out of me! Knowing her now, I think she wants me to read that or else she wouldn't have done it. Or, she knows that a keylogger would pick up on any text typed on that computer, be it email or Word.

So, yes, I'd bet it is a test since she threw in the line about the keylogger.

UGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

Stick to your Plans.

PlanA her......

She is going to be all over the place emotionally and you need to show her (actions) that you love her and want HER!

Ok, so is this typical behavior that I'm seeing?

I guess that's what I want to know. Most threads that I've read are from BS's and FWS's already on board with the marriage...kind of hard to compare.

I don't want to be a mean person toward your WW, North, but:


This is about the finest piece of wayward-script I've seen in awhile!

Here's what she is doing:
Writing it assuming that you will/can read it.

Justifying her actions.

Still reeking of entitlement.

Entertaining herself with notions of how to get in contact with OM while making you think that SHE is thinking she can't.

She's just OH! so foggy.

Keep your keylogging eye on her. And DON'T slip and say anything in reference to her blog! She may be testing the waters right now, to see if you really are tracking her. If she thinks you're not, she'll feel freer to blog and you may get something.

So if she flat-out asks if there's a keylogger just say no and try to change the subject like it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard?

Crap, I cannot believe this is the same woman I married. She's so "out there" it boggles the mind.

No, she won't think that unless you present that way. Dr Harley is not "a bunch of internet hoooey." The Mayo clinic also has an internet site but it doesn't mean the Mayo Clinic is "internet hooey." Get the books, Surviving an Affair, Lovebusters and the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love and start working on a plan.

Tell her you are not interested in staying in a loveless marriage that is vulnerable to an affair. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness if she a) takes steps to affair proof your marriage and b) commits to this plan of recovery. Show her this plan and tell her this is what it will take to keep you interested.

Otherwise, you don't have a marriage, my friend. A crippled version of the pre-affair marriage is not a marriage. So, go lay it out for her and be a leader in your marriage. Take her by the hand and lead her out the dark into a great marriage.

And her diary is a pack of childish fogbabble. If she whines about being "forced" to do this or that, remind her that you are not her poppa daddy and dont have the power to force her to do anything. She can take it or leave it. But you also have that option and have no intention of staying in a loveless marriage where you are NOT SAFE. Those are the things it will take to make you feel safe.

It drives me crazy when grown women say they their husbands "make" them do things as if they are little teenagers. All that really means is they don't want to take accountability for their choices so they play the victim card. If they do it, they need to own it like big gurls.

Never give up your snooping tools. She's not going to ask you right now, because she's waiting to see a reaction from what she's done so far. She might in the not-too-distant future, though, when she doesn't see a reaction from you regarding her blog.

I can't tell you how to respond if she does ask, but I can tell you what I volunteered to my FWH:
In the course of healing I told him that I needed to do whatever it took in order to feel safe. I told him I would be checking where he goes, what he does, how long he is there. I would be showing up at unusual places at unexpected times. I would be calling any strange number I saw on his cell phone. AND that I would do anything else it took in order to make me feel safe. He had to agree with all of this, or I told him the deal was off.

He was in total agreement. I never specifically said what actual snooping tools I would be using. Now, he DID bust me on one of my VARs because I carelessly left it where it could be seen. But I think that just confirmed to him that I was serious in doing whatever it took to feel safe.

The woman you married is still around - she's just covered in fog right now. Keep going with the MB plan and you'll get her back in even better shape.

Typical for a whacked out wayward!

You need to stay strong in your resolve..... It may get tougher before it gets better. She may start spewwing venom out of her mouth faster than you can keep up with. Just be prepared..... An addict going through withdraw is an UGLY creature.

Stick to your plans! Do not deviate!

I've come on as more of a cheerleader for you..... Mel, Bliss, Mrs. W, and some others are giving you great advice to follow.... Just stay strong & pray.... It's as much a spiritual battle as it is a mental & physical battle.

A word document is only available on one computer, but an email account can usually be accessed from anywhere, so if you are at a friend's house, library, or just have two computers in your home, it can be a simple form of document sharing.

North,

I forgot to pass on some great info that I picked up on another thread here. Can't remember who or which thread, but I copied and pasted the info. It works very well. Basically you can block access to web sites yourself if you ever think you need that. Heres how:

Are you using a Windows PC?

1. Using Explorer, open c:\windows\system32\drivers\etc.
2. Start Notepad, and drag the "Hosts" file into Notepad.
3. At the end of the file, add the following line:

127.0.0.1 www.facebook.com

(or you can choose any IP address that will result in a "404" error if you try to open it in your browser)
4. Save the file
5. Try opening FB to see if the change made a difference.

This works for any web site...say www.yahoo.com.

I wish I could remember who provided - I would like to thank them. This is another tool you can use if you need to, which would block access to that secret email account and put your W in a tough position if she tried it. She could not reveal that she has the account unless she wants to come clean. Chances are she won't do that if she hasn't yet. But, she won't be able to use the PC to go there either. It would force a trip to the library if she really wanted to see that account. This will help you keep your keylogger activity hidden while relieving you of the stress of any yahoo account activity. You won't have to reveal anything.

T10

Hey, I need all the support I can get and thank you for posting!

Hey Teetering, thanks for the suggestion. I saw that somewhere else, too. I think their spouse had a facebook "problem" that needed to be addressed.

I'm teetering (ha ha, pun intended) on whether to try blocking yahoo from her computer. On the one hand, as you suggested, it'll make contact difficult if that's what she is doing. But, it would also force her onto a non-keylogged computer and I wouldn't have the tracking ability.

So far, at least in person, she's agreed to part "a" above. As far as this being what it will take to keep me interested, I think she could care less and that she feels that she was manipulated into staying in the marriage.

Am I letting the fog babble get to me? Just from what I've read of others, it seems that the WS usually has some epitome and expresses the desire to stay in the marriage not JUST for the kids. Does my question make sense or am I just getting impatient with something that has only just started?

I have a copy of HNHN and, of course, those links from this website. I remember there being a short piece on affairs in the back of HNHN. Any recommendation for biggest bang for the buck? I'm thinking the "Summary of Basic Concepts" I ask that because, right now, she's not really "here" and short durations of lecturing (as she would probably call it) need to be had. I guess I'm bordering on a DJ here.

Part of the reason she could care less is because she believes you do not have any standards. She is under the impression that you will accept on ANY TERMS and it doesn't matter what she does that you will want to stay married to her. This belief leads to unrealistic expectations of entitlement. It is therefore, in your best interest to disabuse her of this notion. Make it clear that you do not have the power to force her to stay in the marriage so there is no manipulation. She is free to go. But she is not free to stay married to you if she won't commit to recovering the marriage.

If you set the standards high, she will likely live up to your standards. If she won't commit to recovering the marriage, you have nothing to lose anyway.

Here is an overview of the program. I would print this up and tell her this is the program that interests you: Summary of Basic Concepts

My BH felt like you do. He didn't see why I didn't immediately fall on my knees with thankfulness that he was willing to take me back.

Thank goodness even in the fog I had the wherewithall not to say what I was thinking which was, "Duh! I am not in love with you or I wouldn't have done this awful ridiculous thing to begin with."

I knew what I did was wrong. I knew the right thing to do was try my a$$ off with my hubby. I knew I was sinful and OM was disrespecting me. I knew that my kids would pay for my selfishness. What I didn't know was if I could ever fall in love with my husband again.

She is right where I would expect her to be. If she adheres to NC, the fog will lift. If you follow the program and put in the time and avoid AO's and LB and begin the POJA, then things will most likely turn around. I can't say for sure as my BH isn't ready to do all those things yet. I can say that it gets better.

It's a marathon not a sprint.

Sunnydaze and ML, both good points. I'll print out some information, state my position and make a go at it--nothing to lose, after all.

Sunnydaze, what was the turning point for you in deciding to work on the marriage instead of just staying for the kids? I'm guessing that you took the lead as far as MB is concerned...right?

I found these forums. Kept reading even though I didn't believe it was possible. I still have plenty of doubts mind you but I tried some things on my own and am keeping an open mind.

I don't want to just survive in a marriage 12 years is a long time to just exist.

The fog clearing after NC was established allowed me to see the good things that I had been missing about my BH and my marriage.

We still have a long way to go but it is certainly worth the effort. In the end I want my kids to know that I messed up big but I am doing everything in my power to fix it.

One of my big problems pre affair was I felt my BH felt disdain and contempt for me and my ideas. The fact that he stayed, proves me wrong and has made me rethink several entrenched ideas.

Good luck.

I did - no thanks necessary .

Great, just heard from MIL who called WW and was told that she took a xanax and went to sleep for a while.

Awesome job there! But don't worry, I'll handle the kids!!

I need to put a sign on the door to our house that says "Pity Parties No Longer Allowed!"

I'm pretty ticked, in case you couldn't tell. Just needed to vent.

Just an update...

W picked up DS early from school because he had a fever. Unfortunately, she had already taken the xanax and was pretty much a zombie by the time I got home. There was quite a pity party going on, but we didn't really get to talk until after DS went to bed.

Cliff's Notes of what she said...

W: I had a complete meltdown today, started screaming and threw the phone. It doesn't work since it hit the wall.
Me: Sorry you had such a bad day. Want to talk about it?

W: I feel like I'm being treated like a child by you and my family. I know I screwed up but still!
Me: I understand that you feel like that, but it is not our intention. We all love you and are here for you but will not support your A.

W: I don't even want to speak or see my family or yours. They'll just look at me knowing what I did and I feel humiliated as it is.
Me: No, they love you and care about you.

W: It's understandable for you to not want text/internet on my phone, but for my own DAD to give me a speech!????
Me: Well, he pays the bill on your phone so it's entirely up to him what he does. Your A affected our family. He cares enough about you and our family to get involved. That's a compliment.

**Sidenote-- I spoke to her Dad about the phone and he said he told her he wasn't sure what he was going to do, but was definitely keeping an eye out for anything suspicious and would keep track of what went on with that phone. Wow. I think that's when she had the meltdown and threw the house phone.

W: If I wanted to contact OM then I would do it and there wouldn't be anything you could do about it. So why can't I have text and internet on my phone????
Me: That hurts when you say that. I've been through hell for the last eight months by myself and for you to say that is not acceptable. I'm not going to be dragged into a fight with you about this. I asked you to not have internet/text on your phone because that is how you contacted OM and, for once, I would appreciate your doing something out of consideration for me. [She didn't have much to say after that, just nodded.]

W: Fine, then I'll just not have a phone at all! It's not like I work or anything now!
Me: If that's what you want, go ahead. Again, I'm not going to be dragged into a fight with you.

Talking to her, surprisingly, calmed her down a smidge though it was some self-control on my part not to completely blow my top. Here's what I wanted to say:

1. Who the h do you think you are being mad at me? You haven't even earned that right after all the sh*t I've been through. F YOU!!!

2. WTF are you doing on xanax in the middle of the day? Get over yourself, you caused this sh*t and are going to have to live with the fallout. AWWWW, I feel so freaking sorry for you, you stupid a$$....well you get the picture.

After a while, I said that I wanted to go over a plan for our marriage. That I wasn't going to live in a loveless marriage and that I had a plan for what we could do to get out of the mess that we're in right now.

Wanting a halfway lucid audience given the xanax, I said I would go over my thoughts tomorrow and asked if that sounded good to her. She perked up a bit and insisted on hearing it now. I said no, you look tired, go take a bath and relax. She insisted again so I went through the Basic Concepts article.

She said it made sense and was not opposed to hearing more. Well, it didn't look like it sunk in but I don't think she can really do all that much in the state that she's in. I know, a DJ, but that's how I felt. I'll take what I can get and the fact that she listened is a start.

I mentioned that I had HNHN and went over the positive things that I had gotten out of it. I asked if she would read that with me starting tomorrow night. She said yes, but I'm not too confident that she'll follow through with it. I'll take the lead on it though and see what happens.

So that's about it. A lot of drama, poor-me and anger coming out of this woman. But, on the plus side, she's opening up with me and we're having reasonable conversations given the circumstances.

I read an article where Harley mentioned that the withdrawal makes it (often) difficult for getting any positive movement from the WS. I don't know why, but it was a lightbulb going off in my head.

Knowing that there are limits to what I can accomplish during this phase is comforting--otherwise I'd get really frustrated very easily interacting with this person.

North, did you ever see The Exorcist? You know, that part where the kid, Regan, is possessed by a demon and she pukes, her head spins around on her neck, she levitates, spits, etc, while the priest is exorcising her?

Your WW is going through a similar exorcism. Don't let her hurt herself, and avoid flying phones. You'll get your wife back. Hang in there, you're doing great!

Yep, that Exorcist kid reminds me of my wife. Or...my wife reminds me of that kid. No matter.

I did the carrot pretty well after we talked and suggested that she go take a bath, relax, take a break from everything. The stick is pretty much taking care of itself.

She did go take a bath and that was the last I saw her. She's gone to bed already, didn't come out and say goodnight, nothing at all.

After realizing this, I did go in there, say goodnight, kiss on forehead, etc. so if she was trying to get the last word in or make a statement it didn't work.

Looking back to 1/13, you sure were right about this and I was in denial. I kept thinking my wife was different than the multitudes that are discussed in this forum. Without sounding too sappy, thanks, y'all, for getting me to do something.

You handled this very skillfully!! Bravo to you, Northwood. You are well on the right track. And I got a real chuckle out of what you wanted to say but didn't. Hilarious!

Northwood, I am really impressed with how you introduced the recovery program. I would keep her focused on falling in love again and become a broken record. You are doing great!

Thanks, ML for the encouragement. I remember someone posting a similar response to something their spouse said (What you said hurt and is not acceptable) and thought I'd throw that at her.

She's noticed a positive change, says she's not sure what to make of it after so many years. That's ok, though.

We did our budget, it's not in the red as much as I thought. Another wakeup call to get on track with things.

A very slightly better day today, maybe things are slooooowly looking up. She did say she didn't want to read the MB book yet, kind of wanted to take some time to settle down in her mind. She was nice about it and I didn't push...that wouldn't have gotten anywhere.

So until the withdrawal/fog is gone, I guess it's baby steps.

W went and talked to a minister that a neighbor recommended, she said she was really impressed and wanted to try that church. She asked me to go meet with him next week, said that was fine. They offer counseling services there as well, though I'm hesitant to get involved with another counselor that doesn't know what they're doing and may do more harm than good. But, the whole time that she's talking, I'm wondering if she was attracted to the pastor and would have an affair with him. This thinking had better go away after a while.

We rented a movie tonight, Dinner with the Schmucks, where the main character has a relationship issue with a girlfriend who is having, it seems, an EA with an artist or something. In the end she agrees to NC with the artist and it's happily ever after.

It was a comedy, not a "chick flick", but it also bugged me since the whole thing reminded me of my marriage.

Not a bad weekend but it seems we're all coming down with crud or a fever. Figures.

I saw this that my WW wrote on Friday...

Today was better and easier than yesterday, maybe because DS was here to keep my mind occupied. Don't feel quite as angry and bitter. But not happy yet either. I guess that will come. What does everyone keep telling me, only I can make myself happy?! Only I can control that?
Do I worry about OM, yes. I at least have my kids and family here to bother the [censored] out of me and keep my mind occupied. According to [female co-worker], he was pretty messed up yesterday. Its a hard thing to stop cold turkey...you have a deep friendship/connection/relationship with someone for several months then pull the plug and slam the door on them. It's hard to cut it off like that.

The other question I have is why do I cheat? The first time was physical and this time emotional which was probably harder but why, what is it i am looking for? why am i self sabotaging?

Should I worry about any of it, or is it just typical stuff. It does bother me that the former co-worker (1) apparently knew about the affair and (2) WW was asking about on OM on Friday.

No "journal" entries for Saturday or Sunday--kind of hard to tell if they're just there for me to read or not.

I have noticed something since the exposure that I wanted to get opinions on. During the EA, my WW was more affectionate physically--that is, a hug once or twice a day. Now, it's no physical contact at all. Normal?

What do you guys think about broaching MB again? I did on Friday but on Saturday she said she wanted to get herself straight first. Yeah, she needs help but I don't want to slip into an "easy peace" or anything like that. But, I don't want to "over confront" (if that's a word) with MB. Overthinking it?

Perhaps it's me I think she should be making every effort to recovering the marriage and focus her thoughts, time, words and deeds on you. She focused enough time on the affair without consideration for you or her family.

Most certainly state you require full investment of her time to MB , start with a call to Dr Harley. You being understanding is fine her not fully committing and thinking of the OM is not. You need to be loving as well as tough.

Has she read the book "surviving an affair" - if not you mandate this as part of the marriage recovery, fill out the emotional needs questionairs on the site. If she hesitates be firm, you can't force her however you have to ensure that allowing time for her thoughts to think of the OM and the affair is not appropriate.

Her thinking of the OM is high risk for your marriage.

It's patchy fog-babble. She's defogging and is examining her navel. Pretty typical.

I'm not concerned about her journal. I want to know who the co-worker is. That contact needs to end if it's a connection to OM.

The co-worker is a married female with kids. I've met her before, nice enough woman. They bonded more out of a dislike of their boss than anything else.

If I contact this co-worker, it would almost certainly get back to my WW who would likely then know the keylogger is there. Not sure what to do with that.

I found the address of the missing email account on our ipod. I cannot guess the password, and my efforts at "forgot your password?" failed miserably. I guess I'll bring it up tonight.

Keep her on your radar. You don't want her to remain a friend of your WW's if this co-worker is working with OM. In that case she has to go.

Yeah, will do. The co-worker lives about 45-minutes from here and it'd be highly unlikely that we would socialize.

It turns out I locked out the yahoo account after trying so many passwords. I did ask her for the password, she told me. She said it was "the" email account but that she'd made her decision: She wasn't going to talk to him, that she was here.

For where she is, I guess that's the best I can get.

Double-checked the keylogger--she, too, tried to log in to the yahoo and got the locked out message.

Got the email password and closed the account. I think my wife was actually relieved that I found out about it. She said she had kept it as a crutch, like an alcoholic would keep a hidden drink, and was glad to close that door.

W called me at work yesterday, was having a down day and was worried about when she'd have to see my mother again. My mother is keeping the kids on Wednesday while we go meet with a minister. W says she dreads facing my mother, I told her just get it over with, it'd be ok.

But, hey, at least she's calling me now.

W is obviously lovesick-she misses OM and worries about him though she hasn't told me that. Makes me want to puke, but guess it's normal. She did give me a long hug when I got home (that hasn't happend in a while) and I thought she was going to cry but then the kids burst in and life went on.

Overall, though, we're doing a little better and are actually talking a little more. We're probably at an hour/day with UA, still working on getting that number up. Since she's a SAHM now, maybe we can get a 1/2-hour in at lunch every day-that should help.

I think she's still testing the waters before diving in, but, hopefully, she'll take the plunge before too long and we can get started on our new marriage.

Have confidence, you and your wife will be OK. It is like the Cherokee story of the two wolves inside every person - the one you feed is the one who wins. For your wife if she focuses her love on you instead of the OM then your marriage will recover.

Keep on track.

Yeah, I guess we all have that "other side" in us. I keep having to remind myself that I'm only five days into this, kind of wish she'd hurry the h up

Today at lunch I went with W to pick up this old TV armoire that she wants to convert to a sewing cabinet. I thought it'd be a nice time for UA, but she was quiet nearly the whole way.

Nothing suspicious as far as broken NC, but I'm still left with that nagging feeling. I can't tell if it's broken NC or just withdrawal.

PITY-PARTY ALERT!

Of course, now I've going back to "what about me?" The last two days have been off for me. It's been so long (eight or nine months) since I've felt needed that my $LB is just going down. SF (my #1) last showed up around May of 2010.

But I'm still trying to stick to the course. I've got to work on the UA time, I know it's critical. I get kind of down, though, when it's not reciprocated or the conversation is so forced. Make sense?

This weekend we're going to a basketball game with her parents, should be a break from the routine, at least.

I've been reading this thread:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2444647&page=19

It sounds a lot like my W--wish she would read it but I won't ask, yet. Right now, I'm just getting the "I need to be right with myself and God and everything will probably fall into place" whenever I ask to do anything with the marriage.

Am I in for a FR here or is it too soon to tell? Exposure was 1/19 so I'm 8 days into it. Thoughts?

Had a talk with W this evening, really just taking inspiration from other people's threads and going with them.

She says she still feels bad for OM, that he doesn't have his family to distract him...all that stuff that I expected to hear. I said that he wasn't the victim here and I was offended when she was offended when I spoke harshly of him. She said it made sense and that she hated to talk about him because of all the trouble (pain, humiliation, etc.) that the A (she didn't say him) had caused.

I asked if she thought I was doing just fine since I went to work, functioned in society and appeared to have it all together. I asked if she had any empathy at all for what I've been going through but, somehow, managed to get through.

She said she knew it was probably pretty raw for me, but I guess I didn't really expect an answer. The underlying message that I was trying to ask was "What about me? What the h are you doing for me?" I didn't feel it the right time to ask that, but it's bubbling to the surface. Thoughts on that?

I asked if OM ever mentioned that I sent him the F-off text. She said no and didn't ask me anything about it. But I wanted to toss that out there so she'd know that I confronted him and stood up for us. Whether it hit the mark, who could say?

I asked if she had had any contact with OM, initiated by either party. She said no. I take it with a grain of salt these days, but had to ask.

Overall, talking about OM wasn't good for her. She got emotional and I guess that's why they say to limit discussion of the affair to avoid $LB withdrawal.

Changing the subject, I said that I felt that we should spend more time together and that we couldn't sit around just waiting for this marriage to improve. Borrowing someone's signature, I said that I'd read that "Don't pray to God to guide your footsteps if you're not going to move your feet"...or something like that.

At this point she asked if I had read all this stuff somewhere, but I could tell she was honestly impressed by my sudden "insight".

So after the kids went to bed we blocked out times for UA time. We both agreed on the times and both laughed that we had to schedule time for each other. There were a couple of fake groans about "Oh, great, I'm stuck with you for a half hour?" but, overall, it was a nice evening.

We agreed to a total of 12-hrs a week as she wanted to "start small" and seemed overwhelmed when I said my target was 20. Not quite a POJA but a start, I guess. But, I laughed and added that I'd weasel the time out out of her anyways. She laughed, too, and I think tonight was good timing for the scheduling of UA time. She's slooooowly improving day by day.

So, it's a start. I kind of fell into a lull there for a few days, the taker is coming out, got to get back on track and make better efforts not to LB.

I agree on that, but I could wish in one hand... She's just not "there" yet, and (I believe) only my actions will get her there. I wish I could just snap my fingers and she'd get her mind together.

In other words, the affair ended because I exposed and she realized that it, and a divorce, was too much trouble since we have two kids. No, I don't feel all warm and fuzzy about that, though she did quit her job and agree to NC. I wish she had come back all gung-ho on working on the marriage, but she didn't. But, for now, it's what I have to work with so I've got to use it.



My first attempt at getting her to MB was quashed, but only partly and not as completely as it would have been, say, a month ago. That's a good thing, I guess. But, you're right that we cannot sit here forever.

We did work out a schedule for UA time. It's not much progress, but it's something I guess. Once I get her comfortable with me, and trusting me with her feelings, I think it'll be easier to successfully broach the MB subject.

In the meantime, I'm just trying to do it covertly. But, she's made a few comments where she was pleasantly surprised that I did/said something, that it wasn't like me to do that, and wondered where I learned that. Mums the word about this forum, though.


No, she hasn't read that one and quietly put HNHN back on the shelf after I asked her to read that with me. Me asking her to read any book, with me or alone, sends her to the hills at this point. She thinks I'm being insincere, trying to change her, to manipulate her, etc. With that pre-determined notion, arguing the subject doesn't get me anywhere.

As for her thinking of OM, I totally agree but can do little about her thoughts other than try to replace him with me in her head. I hesitate to even mention the a-holes name lest I remind her of him but I just cannot push it under the rug, either.

Surprisingly, she did open up to me and admit that she thinks of him and worries about him. When I responded by using the f-word and his name in the same sentence, she clammed up and almost seemed upset that I said that about him.

I didn't let it slide and said that I had every right to feel that way about OM after what they did to me and that her appearing to defend him as a victim was absurd. She agreed with why I reacted that way, somewhat/barely empathized and we moved on to something else, but the conversation should have been handled better. Live and learn, I guess, but I'm kind of getting tired of this ridiculous fog babble.

North, this is all actually pretty good stuff. Of course, your WW is still foggy and wayward. It's pretty early in the process. That's why you're not seeing more empathy for you. There's going to be a lot of memememe right now. That's normal until that fog lifts.

You'll know you're getting somewhere when she starts getting pissed about OM instead of feeling sorry for him. Or, better yet, when he doesn't occupy any of her emotional landscape.

UA is your biggest friend right now. It is critical that you get those hours up. See if you can slip in some more to yank that up to 20.

Thanks, mb, makes me feel a bit better knowing that others have seen this same thing.

The UA hours will go up regardless of what we wrote down--that's my mission. She just didn't want to commit to such a stringent regimen so just getting her to commit to any schedule was a milestone in my book. When we're not actively thinking about UA, I notice it comes more naturally.

We're going to visit her parents this weekend and she actually suggested getting them to watch the kids for a few hours Saturday while we went out and did something. I about fell over.

Northwood, sounds like you are on the right trackand things are going about as well as you could hope right now considering the circumstances.

But, about the above comments. Glad you put them on this forum instead of going to your WW with them. Vent all you want here, but when around her it can't be about you at all.

A KEY component about plan A is "no Expectations" It is not about getting your EN's met, it's about meeting hers. Don't tell her how the A makes you feel, she knows already on many levels. Especially don't ask the open-ended question, "don't you know or don't you care how I feel?' It will do nothing but put her on the defensive.

I know it's tought to be the giver when the WS is the one who wrecked everything. That's what is counter-intuitive about MB's and why it's so tough on the BS to live a good plan A. But, it is your best hope.

So remember, do your best to meet her EN's with NO EXPECTATIONS about her meeting yours. It's not fair, but it is a path that works.

Thanks, schtoop, for the refresher. I kind of need that every now and again.

Reading a thread on false-recoveries makes me wonder if I'm being set up here. She's never actually said "I want to work on the marriage". I could think and worry this thing around in circles, it's not healthy.

Ugghhh. I've been kind of PO'ed at my WW since Friday--guess that's the next step in all this.

The weekend trip with the kids could have been much better. I just flat out wasn't in the mood to even be around my W. We talked about it, she said she almost wanted me to yell and scream at her.

I said that she kind of got off easy, just came right back in without even saying that she wanted to work on the marriage. She said that was nuts, she felt ashamed around everybody every day of the week and (slowly, kind of sort of) said "I'm wanting to work on this marriage" which, strangely, made me mad as hell, too.

I don't know if I'm losing my mind or not, but these past several months have just worn me down, I guess.

We went out to eat and she just stared off into space but insisted that we go out since "we might as well start sometime". Ok.

Got home last evening and I noticed our dynamic was a lot better since we weren't at her parents' house and in the car with two kids, etc. It seems that we get along better when we're not "trying to have fun" by sitting through dinner at a restaurant, etc. Go figure. I guess I need to rethink my approach or something.

We're trying a new counselor this week, will see how that goes.

This is still pretty early in recovery, North. Remember, it's a marathon, not a sprint. Pace yourself.

Yeah, I keep wanting to speed things up.

I think the increased anger may be, partly, coming from the stop-smoking meds (Chantix) that I'm taking. WW and I did laugh and say I picked a fine time to try to quit.

Well, don't start smoking again!

You're going to be angry on occasion during R. Acknowledge and accept that, because it's completely normal.

Stuff I did...I would bring up old conversations about the A and throw them in my H's face. BAD IDEA. DON'T DO IT. It gained me nothing, and my goal of hurting my H as badly as he'd hurt me never happened. Once you get your affair question answered, move on. Imagine yourself on a game board. Go to the next space. Don't go back a space. It will gain you nothing. Listen to someone who made the mistake of doing it.

Approach your WW in a healthy way. Let her know that you're feeling a little cranky and could use some comfort.

Distract yourself with something you enjoy doing.

When I felt overwhelming anger I would take a pillow and slam it against the door frame in my bedroom. Hot DANG! did that feel good! Seriously, yes, I did have a problem with rage over the A. And initially I would strike physically at my H, which was a terrible thing to do, for both of us. That pillow was a Godsend.

Yeah, that didn't work too well for me, either. I still felt like crap.


That actually did work, and when she responded with kindness it ticked me off. Uggh. I don't know what I wanted her reaction to be, and think I would have been ticked no matter what she said. I don't get it.


I swear I've wanted to smack her on the head but would never do it. I didn't hit a door frame, but did give the house burglar alarm panel a good smack a few weeks ago. Now I can't read the stupid display on it. Good one, that really showed her! (sarcasm intended)

Yeah, I know. BTDT. That's when the pillow came in very handy.

Actually, I do know what I wanted her reaction to be. Hint-it's what guys think about the most.

Wow, that sounds so pathetic. I'm glad I didn't let her know that that's what I wanted and preserved some dignity.

Hey, there's a lot to be said for a little...bit of this and that.

NW - I'm glad I read your post. I've been in plan A for only 4 weeks and struggle terribly with that 'need'. I've given in to my bad temptations twice since D-day. It's like damm if you do ($LB withdrawals) and damm if you don't (frustration). Both times I've rationalized it - 'well, she already says she hates me, why not'? I know that's wrong.

I know I need to redouble my efforts, because I'm sure I destroy any goodwill (i.e. $LB deposits) when I do that.

Hey Andy,

Thanks for your post, kind of helps to read of others in the same situation.

I read your thread. My wife said nearly all the same things--not in love with you, don't know why we married, blah blah blah. It's repeated all the time by other posters and now makes me laugh when I think of the crap that I heard.

Though we're hardly out of the woods, I can say that your efforts will be mostly futile without busting this affair wide open. I know--I tried for six/seven/eight? months to do it on my own, politely asking my wife to please quit cheating on me, pretty please, if it's not too much trouble?

If you're like me, you just cannot imagine that your wife is lying her a$$ off to you. But, she is and, like many have said, you're living with an alien. You cannot reason with, plead with or beg them to do anything reasonable. They just don't have ears that work or a mind that can comprehend something that is so clearly seen by everyone else.

I even threw in that our kids would be horribly affected by this, just knowing that her motherly instincts would kick in and she'd see the damage she was doing. I'll be damned, even that didn't phase her long enough to quit cheating.

But once her family and everyone else knew what was going on, and once her phone started ringing with "what the h are you doing?" she started pulling her head out of her rear. Granted, part of it is still wedged in there and she isn't 100% working on the marriage, but the OM has been booted out for now--permanently, I pray.

You'll be amazed at the difference exposure makes. It gets you off the road you're on, gives you the steering wheel. I only wish I had listened to those people that told me to do this last summer.

Reynolds, where is your thread? I've seen a couple of references to it in other threads but cannot seem to find it.

Got a link?

Need some input, please. I saw the following about addressing problems...


So, we have a problem here.

As I've alluded, the lack of SF is really starting to bother me again. In the past, and I can see it happening now, we've taken the "renter" attitude and swept things under the rug. Resentment builds and on we go.

The last time we spoke of SF (before exposure) I stated my case, she responded that she didn't feel that way and...there we are. Cue crickets chirping in the background.

Any tips or would this be too early to address something that doesn't really have that many alternatives versus, say, who takes out the trash during the week. How in the h do you POJA something like sex without coming across like a chauvinist? Do I just wait and see how things go while keeping up with UA as, per Dr. Harley, these things tend to work themselves out?

Kind of at a loss, here, and merely waiting for a counseling session doesn't seem to help, either. The problem just isn't going away on its own and I'm not all that great at pretending nothing is wrong.

Me thinks that it is too early. I think also that she does know that you need SF (who doesn't). I do believe dr Harley that if there is firm NC and love bank starts to fill up then SF department comes along itself.

In your case, when the last contact was only weeks (?) ago, you just have to be patient. NC should be your first priority.

NW - thanks for the insight and advice. I know I have to expose this affair soon. I like the alien comparison, but I think of it more like sleeping with the enemy.

Yeah, me thinks you're probably right. I'm fairly confident that NC is still in place. Nothing suspicious has shown up and I'm not having that gut feeling like I used to.

Just checked the cell phone log and it looks like my WW has a new secret email account. WW accessed the internet this morning and, from the URL, logged into an email account named (edited email).

By the name of the email account, it would have been set up by the OM. She spent about three minutes looking at it and then logged off.

Spoke with her father and mother. We're all shellshocked, going to have to chew on this for an hour or so. Cannot make a decision right now, but the courthouse is only a ten minute drive from here.

@North -

Please remove email adx.

Phew, good call. Looks like the mods took care of it, thanks for the heads up--wouldn't want her to stumble across this site.

I went home for lunch, she was in a very good mood, insisted on our 30-minutes (UA time), said she had a book that we should read together, asked about my day, etc.

Any other time I would be happy to see that. It's got me wondering if she "rejected" the contact via email, but then how'd she know to check it. I know, I know, go with my gut on this one.

Her mother did call my WW, asking if she was still talking to OM. WW said no, cut the call short. Her mother then called me and relayed the conversation.

When I got home WW asked me if her mother had called me. No, but I saw where I had a missed call from her (a lie). What'd she want, I ask. Oh, nothing, she replied. She was just bugging me.

Something stinks here.

Do you have a keylogger so that you have the password to that email?

I do on her laptop, but she's using internet on her cell. I think OM learned a few lessons while cheating on his now ex-wife and passed them on to my W.

I have a cellphone spyware on her cell, but it only records URLs, numbers dialed/received and texts. It does not have a keylogger function or the ability to voice record surroundings or certain calls. I've checked, and cannot find one that records keystrokes/emails/conversations and works on her particular phone.

The phone is on her dad's plan. He toyed with cancelling the internet/text on it and told her that he'd be watching and not to make him regret trusting her. I think he just wanted to believe his little girl.

If this goes like I think it will, he'll probably cancel her phone all together.

You know that cell phones are delicate. They can't handle being accidentally being dropped in the toilet.

...and stomped on.
...and kicked.
...thrown in the trash.

You know that she is not being transparent. Do you not have enough evidence?

Ok, here's what I have:

1. An internet URL from her cell where she logged into a suspicious account.

That's it. If I go with this, she'll know I'm watching her cell by some means or another. SHe already suspects that her laptop is "wired".

Since her dad pays for the phone and threatened her with watching her, I really want him to make the move so that I'll preserve my cellphone spyware secret.

I'm not thinking too clearly here, guys and want to make sure my next step is the right one. I'm open to suggestions, seriously.

Oh, and yeah, cell phones do have nasty habits of being damaged

try logging on to that account with some "guesses" for passwords.
Or try resetting the password.

Or sit her down in front of the computer tonight with that email address up and prompted to log-in. If she refuses to sign on and show you what is in that account, you can be pretty certain that she has something to hide.

I went through a whole bunch of guesses and clicked the "forgot password" thing as well. Before it locked up, I had sent about ten password reminder emails to the backup email on the account. I suspect it's OM's email, but the address was redacted with an asterisk over each letter.

Her dad is going to call her now and say that he saw the email address in the internet log of the cell phone. Fingers crossed, but if this is a recent email account and they're in contact then I'm going to go positively apesh*t on exposure to OM's coworkers and parents if they're still alive.

Should have freaking did that last week like y'all said.

North,

You're expecting a wayward to be honest?
It ain't gonna happen...

You're waiting for her explanation and hoping that there is something OTHER than new contact? Really?

You know better...

...yeah, I do. Thanks for the reminder, kind of needed that.

My FIL is awesome. We got a plan together and he emailed WW saying he had found the link to the secret email among her cell phone records. He relayed the response, said she got teary and said it was an old account...blah, blah, blah.

Oh, and at my suggestion FIL told my WW that he told me all about this so my "source" is safe.

She's been real nice this evening, think she knows what is coming. We're going to have a come-to-Jesus meeting after the kids go to sleep. This crap stops tonight. I swear, they had (as far as I know) five secret email accounts. WTF.

I hope my resolve stays with me for just a few more hours.

Wow, last night was interesting.

After the kids went to bed I asked for the password to the secret account. After a bit of yelling on my part (I know, not the best approach) I got that she had called him at work to tell him to change the password.

From what she said, they had had the account for some time with the last message being from OM yesterday. She says she didn't respond and hesitated checking that email since things were going so well for us lately, but...who knows. Since the NC email (yeah, that worked real well) she said she had talked to him by phone once, using our house phone and not her new cell number.

Again, who knows.

So I tried to call OM. As before, he didn't answer his phone so, as before, I sent him a nasty-gram text message right in front of my WW and told her he was a effing coward for not responding. Yeah, about a dozen other words were used while I cussed that MF up and down the wall for a good five minutes. Not my finest moment, but I flat out did not give a damn.

I did sneak in there that OM obviously didn't respect or give two-cents (or another word) for her or he would have left a married woman alone. The point was probably lost in the midst of it all, but I did make a feable effort to say something that I hoped would hit home.

So I left the house for about an hour, just had to calm down. When I got back she said she had fallen in love with him and it was really hard to let that go. I said I understood where she was coming from, that I've read of others saying the exact same thing, but no contact means no contact. Period.

We stayed up to 2:30 this morning actually talking about things and it was good. She said it was almost good that we had that confrontation or otherwise we wouldn't have talked. In the end, she wants to work on the marriage but needs baby steps--is afraid that I sometimes push too hard. But, she said that pushing hard was good or else nothing would get done and it'd be swept under the rug again.

She said our actually scheduling UA time was the best thing we've done so far. She was impressed that I had us do that.

She said it was over with OM, that she wouldn't contact him. Should I even bother with a NC letter? Obviously the first one was done half-heartedly. Give it time or get another one done?

So, all in all, a crappy day turned out pretty good and I think we're still on track. I'd love to steer her to this website, but think a little more time and thought is needed before that.

Do the NC letter anyway. This is for you not your WW. She needs to understand that her doing this is to help you feel that she is taking steps toward recovery.

I HIGHLY recommend a HAND WRITTEN NC Letter!

One that is along the lines of what Dr. H suggests - again.

Both of you take it to the post office, mail it together and then go somewhere and share an ice cream sundae together.

It's really important to make this a positive experience.

I found that sharing ice cream is a great way to make you both smile.... For a really fun time, make sure you don't feed yourselves the ice cream... you serve it up to each other, one spoon full at a time.... slowly!

The thing is, I coached her on what to say in her first NC note. I know it should have come from her, but I was just hoping that what I said was what she wanted to say.

Well, I learned from that one. I'll broach the NC letter again and thanks for the idea about a handwritten note followed by a pleasant experience. Makes sense.

So, any suggestions for what to say if she responds as she did before-- "Well, what do I say in the letter?" The first time around, that's when I went through a three or four sentence thing that I'd read on here. She typed it up and sent it.

I want her to do the NC letter because she wants to, otherwise it's pointless. Right?

Did she give you the password -- and did you check the account?
You need to have that -- and you need to block her from it.

She's still giving you a snowjob. I guarantee that nearly everything she told you about contact with OM were lies.

You are definetly making LB deposits -- but she's still lying to you about contact.

Well, I got the old password but POS had changed it by then so, no, I don't have access to it.

The internet on the phone has to go, but if the internet is gone from the phone then my spyware won't be able to record anything. So, I guess that means the phone has to go entirely. Will talk to her dad about that (again) since it's his contract.

Uh... Since POSOM has changed the password, how was he supposed to communicate the new one to your WS? Do you fill the waves crashing over this. Your WS needs consequences for continuing A.

What are they? You moddle-coddle WS. This FR is going to kill you.

North --

I would keep all of your spying options open.
The affair continues...They had contact YESTERDAY.

And even if you had a great conversation and talked long into the night, she still talked to OM yesterday, and you have no idea the content of her conversations with him.

She is still lying, still in contact with him.

Forgive me for asking -- but have you exposed this on his side of the equation?

Can you rephrase? I don't know if I understood.


Agreed, there have to be consequences. That's been the one thing that has bothered me: that, save for the humiliation with her family, she got to come back without any consequences.

My only card left to play is to threaten or file for divorce if contact continues. Honestly, I'm scared to because I think she'd agree to it. That's the one hurdle that I just cannot seem to face.

No, I'm not letting up on the spying.

Thanks for the reality check.

No, I haven't exposed to any of his side...would take a little research to figure out just who his side is. What about workplace exposure since my W quit her job there because of this?

I'm kind of running out of gas here and appreciate whatever input you guys have to things I am missing.

Get that research done North.

OM keeps diddling around with your wife because there are no consequences not to. Except for having to delete your voicemails...

Find out everything about him and EXPOSE.
Tell his friends, family, and facebook community. Tell his boss, his co-workers, and his church. Most especially tell his wife or girlfriend.

That is your #1 job today.

Ok, will start making a list.

As for workplace exposure, the most common letter shown here is for when the two still work together and goes over wasted company resources, etc.

What do you recommend for when they no longer work there? "Hey, my wife quit because she was having an affair with a-hole, thought you'd like to know?" See where I'm getting stuck?

Then start with family and friends.
No excuses.

How is the communication occurring?

Secret email accounts and house phone.

You can monitor email access. keep in place and continue monitoring.

You cannot monitor house phone. Remove phones from home. She has a cell phone.

What other ways can see communicate with OM?

No, no no, don't get me wrong--I want to tell his coworkers, etc. but could use some advice on what to say in the letter.

So far, I've got four "higher ups" that I can target with it.

By cell phone internet. I just spoke with her dad telling him that text/internet have to go from that phone. He's thinking about it....

Other ways she could contact OM-- by her computer (keylogged), house phone or secret phone. She's a SAHM so the kids will defintely put a crimp on travelling to see him.

You can put a recorder on your home phone.
You just need to find a jack that you can put the recorder on, that will allow it to be hidden. Plug the recorder into the jack, and the phone into the recorder.
It will pick up the conversation on any line. This way you get both sides of the conversation.

Or put a VAR into the most likely room that she would be having a conversation with OM.

That works, both phone jacks are behind heavy pieces of furniture. Will google that.

Look, a waywards mind is not very clear nor is it focused. She will need some help writing the letter.

Dr. Harley suggests something along these lines:
[from SAA, pg 58]

OM, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my husband and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that "H's NAME" did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay "H's NAME" for the pain I caused him, I will do my best to become the wife he has been missing. I care a great deal for "H's NAME" and my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, WW


I also like this one: (Of course you'll need to correct the gender issues)

Do not punish your wife!

Plan A is an attempt to bring your wife out of the affair and back into a SAFE marriage. Punish her and you will effectively kill all the deposits you are working hard to make.

Exposure is an effective tool - it's not a punishment.... so focus here, OK!

DITTO !



From my carrot/stick thread (see link in my sig line)







Plan A is never about "punishment".
The effective Plan A'er can stand aside as the natural consequences of adultery happen.

But, do not be the executioner who kills your WW's love bank balance.

Sending an exposure letter to the workplace is only good if they work together. Don't waste your time on that.

I would like to know why you haven't exposed to OM's side. That should have been one of the first things you did! OM has suffered NO consequences for this A except for the occasional poodle-yapping at his ankles (your texts, which you can guarantee he deleted after reading the first sentence or two.) Texting him might make YOU feel better, but likely does little to discourage him. Especially when he just got done talking to his girlfriend (your WW.)

You need to put together that NC letter and expose this to his side.

Also, you need to sit a little higher in the saddle, North. It is very unlikely that your WW is going to want to divorce you if you set the bar high. But I suspect she senses your fear of what she might do (hell, I can smell it all the way over here.) Let her know that there will NOT be two men in this relationship!

I didn't expose to his side because:

1. I didn't know anyone of his side
2. It was easier to just do my wife's side
3. I thought that #2 would be sufficient and let my guard down.



I have the names of, I believe, a sister and his mother and father. Facebook is turning up a bust, but he's 38 so maybe he never got involved in it. I really want to find his ex-wife (have her maiden name) but I'm not sure why I want to talk to her. Maybe to just get their history, what she knows of his family, I don't know---that might backfire but it's a separate issue from the letters to his sister and parents.

As for sitting higher on the horse, yep, you smell pretty good and your impression is correct. Not really having a solution to that right now (hopefully will have one this afternoon), what did you mean when you said

It is very unlikely that your WW is going to want to divorce you if you set the bar high.

or are you trying to subtly say that women don't respect weenies?

Thanks Pepper and Papa for the reminder. Right now, it seems, I'm walking a line between doing a doormat Plan A and...well, who knows. Not wanting to screw this up sometimes gets me overwhelmed, got to get out of that.

Oy vey! Where is my 12" Catholic School nun's ruler, so I can smack your hand!

Okay, No. 1: you've been on this site long enough to know that there are many, many ways to get info on OM'S family. Here's one, right off the top of my head:
www.intelius.com
Google his name and you'll get associated names, with ages. Look for people who are 20-35 years older than OM. Those are probably his parents.
Look for a female who is close in age. That's probably his wife.
Look for males or females within 3-5 years of him with the same last name. Those are probably sibs.

You can get more info on each name by googling each name individually. Geez Louise, North.

No. 2. It was easier to just do your wife's side. Okay. Promise me you will pay it forward and chastize any poster on here who says this in the future. Pinky-swear, North. I mean it.

No. 3. You didn't let your guard down. You just didn't finish. Exposure is like the winter storm we just had. It covers everyone!

I'm saying that if your WW wanted out, she would have been gone by now. She's not going to pack her bags and head home to her mama because you're insisting upon complete fidelity.

But remember: she is watching you through her foggy lenses. What does she see? A man who is taking decisive action to protect his marriage, or a man who is tentatively fumbling along, trying not to offend anyone?

So yeah, since you mentioned it: Women don't respect weenies! Make your stand and make it a solid one. And don't finish your requirement sentences with "if that's alright with you, dear." Ish!

Busted. But in about twenty minutes I got the names and addresses of three relatives so I'm ready to go on them. I'll post a letter, let y'all take a look.


Yeah, I pinky-swear and am usually critical of those that are wishy-washy. A double-standard, I guess.


Well, we don't get snow down here that often, but I'll take your word for it. Yes, I didn't finish the exposure and am now seeing the results of that.

>sarcasm<

Yeah, we always recommend "easier"

>end/sarcasm<

Ok, I get the concept but (you knew there was a 'but' coming) what else is there for me to say to her? Threaten contact with a divorce when she could easily run back to him? Do it anyways?

For example, here's the latest issue that I have even though, last night, she promised no contact.

Her only friend left works at the same place that WW and OM did. They talk a lot, but friend doesn't know about the affair or the reason that WW quit. Or, so the WW says.

I told her that her contact with this friend is bad for me because everytime she calls friend she probably thinks of work and then OM. Too, the conversation with the friend could easily shift to OM. I told her that I needed to be able to trust her again and this was one thing holding me back. That I wanted her to do something for me and take the initiative.

So that's how it was left, she responded that friend was her only friend left (pretty much true) and she didn't know what to do but knew that I was right.

How should I have handled that conversation from the beginning? NC with friend or divorce?

Thanks, mb, for walking me through this.

Agreed and sorry for the half-truths (by omission) of a few weeks ago. I know you guys can only help if you get honesty from me.

This is good, but I would have added to it: "WW, one of the things I need in order to feel safe is for you to discontinue the friendship with work-friend. This is one of my requirements in order to heal this marriage."

I don't want to hear her whine about how this is her only friendship. That cuts NO ICE with me. She has few friends because she's a big girl and she chooses that. And I suspect that this friendship developed because they had one thing in common: work.

North, I have a lot of females I am friendly with. I have one friend that I have known for years (we went through the 'baby-raising' era together and became good friends)that I occasionally talk on the phone with. That's about it. So I guess you could say that I have 'one' friend under your WW's definition. And I'd be okay with dropping this 'one friend' of mine if my H perceived her to be any threat to my M.

How is it that this one ex-work friend is a wedge between the two of you?

The bad thing is I actually empathize when she says it's her only friend left BUT you reap what you sow.


1. Because when she calls the work office and asks to speak to friend, she could easily ask to speak to OM.

2. Because when she calls the work office it puts work in her mind and therefore OM. Or, so I'd think.

3. Because she said she contacted this friend yesterday to "tell OM to change the password, he'll know what I mean". I called BS on that and said she must have called him directly, but she insisted and I have no way to prove otherwise. I do know that she didn't call OM on her cell at that time, but there was a call made to friend's cell at that time.

4. Because I cannot say for sure that friend doesn't know of the affair. Seriously, they worked together, how would she not have picked up on something? I just don't want to take the chance that this friend, who is married w/kids, is an enabler--either intentionally or accidentally.

Letter for OM's parents/sister, what do you think?


Dear ,

It grieves me to write this letter but you should be aware that OM is having an affair with my wife, ___, who worked at ____. We have been married for 10 years and have two children, ages five and three. They have been having this affair since the summer of 2010.

My wife has already quit her job to separate herself from OM. Unfortunately, his continued contact is threatening to break up our marriage and destroy our family.

I would ask that you use your influence with OM to persuade him to leave my wife and family alone. If you have any questions, you can call me at xxx-www-xxxx.

Thank you, BH

Note that I left out the part about evidence. All I really have is some old email addresses, one text and what my wife has told me. By itself, it doesn't look like much and I'd rather not offer that to OM's family. Good or bad idea?

Does it make him sound like a stalker? Since it takes two to tango, I'm not sure about the wording.

What is she, three years old? She'll make new friends.

My quote: I appreciate your answers, but that's not what I meant. I was being facetious. What I meant was that this ex-work friend shouldn't be a part of your healing. She's connected to work. It should be a given that that friendship is over, and WW shouldn't be talking to her.

Good letter -- don't overthink it.
Send. A phone call would be better...

Is he on Facebook?

Talk me into a phone call, please. I'm not seeing how that would go...

I found his sister (?) on facebook and her friends list with a couple of other women with the same last name. I suspect they're cousins and went through all of those people's pages and lists of friends. OM just isn't on there. On the sister's facebook friend list I did see what I believe is OM's ex-wife's facebook page. It's private, so I'd have to send her a message.

I'm inclined to do that on the very off-chance that they aren't actually divorced or actually have children. I was thinking of something like

"My name is _ and my wife worked with OM at ___. Assuming that you are his wife, I'd like to talk to you about their affair."

What do you think?

Ahh, the glory of the internet and typed words! Yes, the thing about the friend really is that simple isn't it.

You could do both.

"Hello, my name is Northwood. I'm the person who sent you the letter regarding my wife's affair with your son. I was hoping I could talk to you about it to see if there is anything you can do to help end this affair."

Just an update here.

Last night I told my wife that I wanted her to write OM a NC letter so that the door could be closed. She hesitated, sensing that it would make it "really" over and permanent. I pressed the issue and she resigned and said "fine, I'll do it."

I said "Sorry, but you have to WANT to write it and not do it because I'm making you." I added that I expected her to commit to it and that I wouldn't be in a marriage where OM was present.

I said that by not writing that letter, it's as though you're leaving an escape route open or something and I'm not going to be second choice while you have a backup plan available. I said it was like me keeping a pack of cigarettes in a drawer "just in case" my quitting didn't work. I said you're going to have to close that door for this to work and left her to think about it.

Well, she did. I came home for lunch and she had a handwritten note that she showed me. It is perfect--short and to the point. Even better, I had no input on it but was going to bring it up again tonight if she hadn't said anything by then. She gave me a big hug and it seems like something has lifted between us. We'll see, but I'm cautiously optimistic about where we're at today. It's the old "fool me once" saying.

UA time, over the past few days, seems to be getting easier and I think we're making progress in keeping to our schedule despite the two young ones.

So, should I still send those letters to OM's family? If so, I'd want to tweak them to say that W has told OM to leave her alone and that we'd appreciate their help in getting OM to commit to that. It'd still be my final F-You to OM.

Or, do you think me contacting OM's family would cause him to try to reach out to W?

I'm trying to think it through before I act.

Yes I am all for sending the letters to his family it helps ensure he gets the message and his family are fully aware of your wife recommitting to you plus the OM can never deny to his family that he did not know. Post the updated letters here if you want the wording checked.

I would be surprised he would reach out to your wife if the NC letter has been written correctly.

So how about scheduling a coaching/counseling appointment with the Harley's for you and your wife???

Yeah, I think I'm going to put them in the mail. Why not.

The letter sounded fine to me...

OM,

I have made a decision to stay with my family and kids and work on what I have. You won't be hearing from me again and I know you will respect my request to not contact me. This is the best for everyone involved so that we can all move forward with our lives.

W

I'd love to try this and would have to get really creative in order to pay for, say, weekly sessions. I was trying to think of ways to bring her into the fold without trying to be obvious about it. Perhaps the home-study thing that I've seen advertised?

I might have to play it by ear for a little as I don't think the withdrawal has really hit yet or is over. Know what I mean?

But the first step, UA time, is already in place by joint agreement so I think the rest will follow as long as our little friend stays the h out of our lives. I'll be watching.

If your happy, great...... but this letter sounds pretty lame to me!!!

I'm open to suggestions...it won't go out in the mail until tomorrow.

It's soooo much cheaper than a divorce.... KWIM..

I'm open to suggestions...it won't go out in the mail until tomorrow. [/quote]

I gave you TWO already! One Dr. Harley recommends and one that Schoolbus wrote.

Just give them to her and recommend she try again.

Posted yesterday:

Oops...forgot about those and will pass them on to her. Pardon the amnesia?

I'm going to say this as gently as possible.....

Snooping and exposure activity is covert work!

Repairing and recovering your marriage is NOT covert..... Lay out what you need and what you would like to do. Tell her what you want.... It's not a wait and see, my friend. Waiting around to see what she's going to do next is a recipe for disaster. Would you wait and see what an alcoholic is gonna do when you take their bottle away, or would you see to it that they get to some AA meetings, pronto?

Counseling/coaching now is the best recipe for success. If needed, ask your in-laws, friends, etc. to help you finance the expenses of some short term counseling with The Harleys... They are the leaders in helping couples recover from infidelity. Why would you ever want to settle for second best counsel? or a wait and see approach?

OK, I'm stepping back again.... That really was meant to be gentle. I hope you received it the way it was intended.

No worries, received just fine. Seriously, thanks for taking the time to help. It's been good having a group to bounce things off of and point out things that I'm not seeing.

Crud. I'm just now seeing that I don't have much of a plan at all and am still worried how she'll react. Why the h do I still do that?

Maybe I should call by myself and ask the question above. I don't get my hesitation...need to chew on that for a while.

All's quiet on the western front. I sent off the two letters to OM's parents and sister but haven't heard anything. I kind of doubt that I will.

NC letter #2 went in the mail last week, he probably got it Tuesday at work. I haven't seen any indication that he responded to my W so that's good.

So far, so good with NC. W seems to be doing better day by day, so I think we're on track for now. Both kids have been sick and so has W so UA time has slipped this week. We talked about it and are back on schedule. It definitely helps and we both notice a difference when UA time slacks.

I've ordered the "Five Steps..." workbook and the Love Busters book. They should be in next week so I'll sit down with her and go over the plan with her so that we don't flounder. We've got to get moving here.

We're seeing a new marriage counselor--not sure what I think of him yet as I've only been one time. It's iffy.

His first question to me was why we were there. I told him it was because we had lost the romantic love. He seemed surprised and I think he expected me to immediately rant about the affair. He asked for clarification so I gave him a Harley question..."How many happily married, madly in love, couples have you seen that want a divorce?" I think it threw him.

I'll see how the next session goes on Monday and if she'll get on board with the MB material once it comes in. From there I'll push for a phone call with Harleys.

Got a question that's been bugging me for a while. I've found the facebook page of OM's ex-wife and am wanting to contact her. Why, I'm not really sure--maybe just to see what happened to her marriage and if it jives with the version my wife gave.

OM's W divorced him in November or December, so I cannot help but think that my wife's involvement was instrumental in that. But, I live in an alienation of affection state and would hate to get a civil suit should this woman be completely out for vengeance. I wonder if she even knows about my wife?

I don't know--should I even go down that road or let sleeping dogs lie? I'm only 12 days into a second NC so I'm not out of the woods, yet.

I'm not even sure what I'd say to her..."Hey, my wife had an affair with your ex-husband. Want to compare notes?"

W and I started reading HNHN and have the 5-steps workbook that we'll go through once we're done with the book. Love Busters should be coming in this week, seems to be taking a while to get here.

So I'm about nine months past D-day and about a month after exposure so I've been living this stuff for a while now.

W is really coming around and I can see that she's really trying to get things right here. We're reading His Needs-Her Needs right now. Read the first two chapters but decided to skip Affection and SF and read the one on conversation as it seemed most applicable to us at this time.

It sparks good conversation and we're just now getting back to enjoying each other's company.

But, unfortunately for her, I have this SF need that is a real struggle for me. We've talked about it many times and I honestly know that she will not get there as quickly as I wish. That's just where she (and we) are right now...in the friendship stage. Ok, I get that and know that we're only just getting started at rebuilding this mess. I cannot force her to feel something that she doesn't and rebuilding the romantic love takes time.

Damn, though, I didn't know it would be so hard to be patient.

So I really shouldn't complain, but I feel like I've been trying for soooo long and she's only now coming around and I'm just tired and worn out.

Where we are now, actually working on this marriage, is the place that I wanted us to get to. So why am I not jumping for joy? Why do I look at what I don't have instead of what I do? I know better.

Any advice, critiques, smacks on the head or been-there-done-thats?

NW - I think you might have to take matters into your 'own hands' so to speak. You said yourself, you need to be patient - so try to take your own advice. Think long term and keep your eyes on the prize. The prize is a fullfilling, lifelong relationship with somebody.

..just my 2 cents worth. I'd give a lot to be in your shoes, FWIW.

Ha ha, took me a second to get that.

My patience comes and goes by the hour, I'd say. Good and bad days, but the good are very slowly starting to outnumber the bad. But still, well, you know how it is.

Honestly I do feel bad complaining when others have it rough. I actually laughed at myself when, earlier, I posted that you needed to be patient. We'll all get somewhere eventually if we can only stay on the ride long enough. Oh well, I feel a little better now...thanks for chiming in.

NW8900 - The SF was a huge LB$ buster for my WW the last 6 months of 2010. Now I know why - you have the excitement of a new lover and then you come home to your H - bummer - been there done that, got the T-shirt! I would pressure, she would be there physically but not emotionally. She would just lay there, I would feel guilty afterwards - my taker was in full blown control. 'She already says she hates you, what have you got to lose?'

This from a woman whose libido was off the charts until our DS was born. I tried to change that up too, but again, she was passive about it. She never changed anything up for us or made any effort at all. Frustrating, very frustrating.

Hang in there and vent here - not to your WW! You've got a beach head established, don't get pushed back into the sea.

Norwood8900,

I think this might work for you, remember 9 months ago and where you were. I think without a doubt you would want to go back to that, the way things are now is still better than that. Another 9 months might even be a better place........that is what patience will get you.................sexually passion for women starts in the morning and all day long........little looks, little touches, look good, smell good until she sees you again...........being her soft place and really listening and understanding her is going to be so sexy to her..............when you feel you can't be patinent any longer remember where you were and how grateful you are that you aren't there any more................I bet one day you will look back and you will have really enjoyed getting to know your wife again, probably better than you did before, same for her, there won't ever be anything that will ever get between you two again with that kind of relationship..............
hang in there

Hey Andy, thanks for the input. Yup, been there before and, though I cannot fault her for the effort, it reminded me of those stories of women in the 1950's that would mentally make out their grocery list while her husband "did his business."

Ugh. But, at least we've talked about it and agreed it wasn't where either wanted to be. I guess that's a good thing, even though no solution was offered.

Jessitaylor--I appreciate the reminder, seems I kind of forget how things used to be in my oh-so-patient attempts to get moving forward in this.

It helps to vent here, thanks all for putting up with me when I get in pity-party mode...just got to remember to tell myself to chill the h out.

NW8900 - yeah...some of us are very envious of your current position. :-)

Guys, could really use an opinion on this. I've found where OM's ex-wife works with a phone number. Other than curiosity about the decline of their marriage, I cannot think of any other reason to call her.

But what if they weren't actually divorced? All I saw was where their house sold in December.

But what if they actually had kids?

Should I call or send her an email?

EDIT: Other than my letters to OM's parents and sister (who I never heard back from) I did no exposure to OM's family. I have never spoken with or seen OM's wife and don't want to open a can of worms here.

Hate to bump my thread when others have much more serious questions, but could really use some thoughts on contacting OM's ex-wife.

I don't want to start anything since NC is going so well, and don't want this woman to call my W and give her a bunch of grief, but I just have some questions for the ex.

Thoughts, please? I don't know if I'm missing something here.

NW8900 - I don't know what to tell you. My gut tells me to try and let it go - if NC is going well. You might just open a can of worms and the 'urge' to make contact will start again with one party or the other.

That's kind of my thinking, but still bothers me. Maybe it's because the only "evidence" I have that OM and his W were divorced with no children comes from my wife.

I'm pretty sure I found OM's wife's facebook page. It's set to private so you cannot even send a message. But her main picture is a collage of a boy playing little league baseball. Her son? her nephew? Or maybe not even the right OM's wife?

Expose it anyway; remember that waywards lie. Both in he could have lied to your wife, and that your wife was lying to you.


And, gentleman, SF isn't a LB when your WS is in an active A; what it is is a reminder that they are engaged in horrible behavior.

DO NOT COMPARE ANYTHING THEY DID WITH THE OM TO ANYTHING THEY DO WITH YOURSELF.

Remember that an A is a "love-buster free" fantasy bubble - of course things were different, because that entire fantasy world was supported by the blood, sweat, and tears of the BH.

The lie was no resentment, the same resentment they choose to take to bed with their BH, and CHOOSE to ignore with the fantasy bubble.

That's why A's die; they are based on blind fantasy, not reality.


Gentleman, show your (F)WW what the difference between SF w/ a douchenozzle OM and a loving, caring H is really all about. You will reap the reward.

HOLY FREAKING COW!

So I called what I thought was OM's ex-wife. First I confirmed that I had the right person. I did. She was at work, I told her who I was, who my wife was and told her about the EA. I asked if she could speak, she said 'not really' but to continue.

I asked if she was divorced and if she had any children. She said 'no' to both of those things.

OM is still married to this woman! Crap! Now, who was lying?

1. OM telling my WW that he was separated when he met WW, and the divorce was finalized not long ago.

2. WW telling me #1.

I gave OMW my contact info and email, should she have any questions. She did want to know all of what happened and I apologized for dropping this on her lap on a Monday afternoon at work. She said she really appreciated me calling, no need to apologize at all.

Most of her concern was whether or not the affair is over. I told her that, to the best of my knowledge, it is. She asked how I knew. I told her.

I'm so glad I called this poor woman. Her husband is a real sleaze.

Then why do I feel like I just stepped in it?

NW8900 - As tough as that must've given, you did her a favor. I with someone would've done it for me!

Thanks, Andy.

What's strange is that she didn't know. Guess the news in my notes to OM's family never reached her.

Expect NC to be broken. He will freak out.

I'm not surprised by this at all. My WXW told guys she met that she was divorcing. She told them this while I was deployed and fat, dumb, and happy about how well my wife was handling things at home.

Funny how all of the men I contacted when I got back had the same story about how she told them she was divorcing. No one had told me. And, of course, according to WXW, they were all liars.

So this little development doesn't surprised me at all.

I think it would be good to reveal this to your WW, so that she can see how much of a liar this man was and she can get over her withdrawl quicker.

Thanks, HTLD. Kind of feeling strange right now--didn't want to ruin a good thing (NC), but didn't want to chance that this guy was actually married and she didn't know. I did the right thing, right?

I wonder if WW knew the truth. Surely she did?

You think so? Unless she's told him her new number/email, the only way he could contact is calling the house phone.

I'd better not have to take off work to man the phone.

Northwood, at the risk of incurring your wrath unintentionally, let me just state that I think your thread is extremely helpful to those in the same situation.

You know why? Because it's so textbook!

I'm not sure you were completely on board with MB principles when you first got here, but you certainly seem won over now!

The things you've been relating are not new. However, they underscore how cancerous adultery can be, and if (and when) surgery is performed, it must be done completely, to cut out the entire offending disease.

I hope that others reading this thread, particularly those who may be walking the fence on exposing, will learn how devious and insidious waywards can be.

Carry on, friend.

Hey Fred, no wrath here and thanks for the comments

You are correct, I plodded my way through MB concepts for a long time--pick and chose, so to speak.

Exposure was the best thing since sliced bread, and I see myself in post after post that others write. I want to leap through the screen and slap them upside the head for being slow and timid, but then I remember I was the same way (my life was crashing around me) and I, too, rejected those same slaps because, well, my case was surely different. Yeah, right.

I'm actually asking for a slap here: how do I bring up that OM is still married? A part of me doesn't want to wreck where we've gotten and put OM back into her mind. Could use some pointers, I don't want to screw something up.

BUT, I sure hope that M-effer gets an earful from his wife when she gets home!!!!!! I DARE that SOB to contact me or my wife. Actually, I kind of WANT him to. Well, no, not really, but y'all see what I mean.

NW8900 - When I initially confronted WW about OM - asking her to give me the name (so I could compare it to the one in my head) and she refused. She said something like 'what are you going to do, kick his a$$?' Well, I bit my tongue. Did I want to do that? Certainly. However, here's what I did NOT say - he's short, stocky and 52 years old - I'm well over 6' and a fit 195 (thanks to the A!) and 8 years younger. I don't beat up AARP members. Would probably not be a fair fight, but I also don't want to get strung up on charges. So instead, I replied, no, I'm not going to kick his a$$. I just wanted a name, that's all. I'm naturally sarcastic...so it took a lot to hold back.

Andy,

Nah, much as I'd love to smear him all over the pavement, I won't do it. But, it'd sure be nice to do in a perfect world

Besides, I saw a picture of him on his company's website. He's a complete goob.

I didn't tell W that I talked to OM's wife. I cannot figure out why, but I think I just don't want to rock the boat. I'm worried that, by telling her, it'll put OM in her mind and she'd be inclined to call him to "see if he's all right" or some such BS.

But...I don't know if she knew he was married or not and just wasn't telling me the truth lest I call OM's W.

Dunno. I'll chew over it tonight, will see what I think tomorrow. In the meantime, if anyone sees this and has a good list of pros/cons that I'm missing, feel free to chime in!

NW - I wouldn't volunteer the info, but I wouldn't deny it if asked. I'm taking a similar tact with my MIL converation today. I decided not to say anything tonight - she's already down because of house and job. Don't need to pile that on tonight - feels like a LB$.

Yes, maybe that's what I'm feeling--like it'd be a LB. But still...

You know how it is.

Don't fool yourself into thinking it would have made a difference to your WW. I would just mention it to her, something along the lines of "oh, BTW, I found out today that OM is actually still M'd". Expect fog-babble in response.

Absolutely! You did the right thing. She had a right to know.

You also reveal to your WW that OM was a liar and used her for some tail. That will open her eyes more than anything.

Others here might feel different about telling your WW the truth, but I think the truth cleanses.

Talked to W at lunch, told her I had talked to OM's W. I could tell she held her breath but tried not to let it show. I told her what we talked about and that OM's W was pretty sure that she wasn't divorced or separated and had never even gone down that road.

W apologized, said OM had told her that he was separated and, because of OM talking about lawyers, that she had assumed that their marriage was at the end. She knew he wasn't divorced and said she was sorry for lying to me about it.

I said "That's fine, it sounds like OM sure lied to you about his situation." I think it clicked a little.

I'll still bird dog this for any break in NC, though.

---------------------------------
EDIT: W apparently chewed on what I said because she just called and first thing she said was "He wasn't even separated?!?" Nope, his wife didn't seem to recall that

W said she was just trying to put the pieces together, reiterated that she was never going to talk to him again and that this wasn't really that important because of that, but she said she just felt like a complete fool.

I didn't disagree, just said that OM sounded like he was dishonest to everyone (my W and his W).

So, I think my W is starting to see what a loser this guy is.

Hows it going North? I am SO glad the forum is back up. Its like I lost my anchor!

Hey Reynolds,

Yeah, it was kind of strange not having this forum...maybe I need a new hobby at 11 pm

Things are *ok* I guess, thanks for asking. I had thought that WW's withdrawal had come and gone too quickly compared to what I've read of others.

We've been talking a lot and today she said she still misses OM. I did ok with my response, said thanks for telling me, but then just snapped and went off on what a POS he is. She didn't hate him, but didn't want to contact him but had thought about it and wanted to let me know. She says she's totally committed to the marriage, and I haven't seen any indication of broken NC. I think it was honest, but you know how you cannot help but wonder.

So...that's the news and I'm as confident as I can be that our marriage will survive. I just don't think there's an alternative, you know. We're reading Love Busters book, tonight she actually asked a question about something read so, maybe, we're getting somewhere.

But, damn, it's the ups and downs that wear you out!

Yes tell me about it. I know you saw what my week was like. Better today, she came to me about the email which was really good. Sorry for TJ.

You know, this is one of the beautiful things about exposing to the wife/girlfriend/lover of the OM; it often has the effect of also exposing the quality of the OM as... a real douchenozzle.

The process was a back step for me, but the dividends were worth it.

Thanks, HHH.

We talked about POS yesterday after her comment that she missed him. I finally got out of her that she almost hates it when I criticize him (but understands why I do) because she then feels like she should be yelled at, too, since it was her fault as well. She said she knew the affair was a fantasy, so I guess that's good to hear (less fog).

She still wants to defend him, but admits that she shouldn't. Ughh!! But I think we're getting there.

She did comment that OM's W was "kind of loony" and I asked if she ever met her. No, she said. Well then how do you know she was "loony"--heard that from OM? OM's W sounded pretty coherent when I talked to her, I said. Why would OM's W lie to me versus what motivation would OM have to lie to you about the state of his affair? Maybe to get in your pants? No real reply on that, but point was made.

She kept insisting that the affair happened while he was separated. I said that OM's W didn't seem to recall being separated and, besides, he was still married! No, but he said he was separated, she says. According to the State of ___ being separated means you are still married. Period! No reply on that, either.

The fog still runs through her veins and withdrawal is still going on.

I never did hear from OM's W again--hope she nailed that [censored] to the freaking floor.

With some luck he is now throwing your wife under the bus to save his marriage. Thats what happened for me. Although it does not get you recovered but its a nice start.

NW8900 - Is it me or is it just plain weird that she's discussing her feelings for OM with you, the BH? I would avoid this topic altogether, the other couple shouldn't have a prominent role in your conversations. You guys should focus on you and your plans, your future, etc. Besides, no matter how you answer, there's a LB in there somewhere. Avoid it!..just my 2 cents worth.