What I didn't say was....and if you don't call me back, pack your bags.

NW, if that is truly your position, you should have said it. O&H is important to a couple when things are going well; how much more vital is that quality in the communication when things are falling apart. She deserves (yes, even WS's have some considerations due) to know the implications of their actions.

Does she have any SAY in it? Sure, she does. She's going to SAY how sorry she is to that poor woman!

This will be a good thing for her, to meet the victim of her damaging, horrific actions. This is going to be a huge blast of reality for her.

And yes, you want to talk with WW tonight. Don't go to your respective corners on this.

If you know you want to keep trying, write down what it will take for you to even consider taking her back. Get that bar up there.

I would suggest you change her cell phone number and let her keep it. That way you can track her calls. It's too easy to pick up a pay as you go phone. Tell her you're going to go through her phone at any time. She needs to hand it over, no questions asked. You'll want to call contacts at any time to make sure they are the same name as how she's got them listed.

Do you have a GPS on her car? A VAR in it?

Or are you unsure about what you want to do? (And there's nothing wrong with that. You don't need to rush to a decision. But I would be clear with her on that, as well.)

Crap, my FIL called asking me not to pressure my wife into seeing OM's W...seems WW isn't doing so well with the emotions.

I don't know. I don't need any more information from OM's W. I just thought it was a good idea so that WW could see that OM's W was a real person, not just a name.

But is there more harm than good here? Am I rubbing it in if she's truly remorseful (which I haven't gauged yet)?

Them seeing each other isn't a deal breaker for me either way, I just don't know if I even give a damn any more, but I feel like I have to stand my ground now. Plus, I told OM's W I'd call her back and not to do so would be rude.

Agree on the phone.

No GPS or VAR.

And I'm not sure about what I want to do. It's a wierd feeling.

NW

She wasn't pissed or anything, I think she just is trying to make sense of all this�My wife is the second person he had an affair with. After his first affair, she separated


Be sure to let OMW know that she should polygraph OM, it not likely just two, that OMW sounds like a good person which is all the more reason she must meet your wife. All the stories OM told about his wife will be shown as lies.

I think my W seeing OM's W will put a big [censored] nail in all this.

She needs to see that OMW is a real flesh and blood person who she helped injure, not some evil witch your W was saving OM from.

Do you really think this was not a physical affair? You need to polygraph your W too.

God Bless
Gamma

It seems to me that your WW has plenty to say to her father when she is in a corner and little to say to you, stick to your guns, she must be emotional and scared after all how will she ever understand the wrong of having an affair. Do not waver. You made a decision , she and the OM's wife must talk, even if it is to confirm you are not a doormat . What will happen is every time you ask for her to do something she will want to think about it, translation "I need time to work out how to say no".

What is your plan for tonight?

Your call, North. But I would defer to OMW on this. If she wants to face her attacker I think she has that right. I think that would be an enormous dose of reality for your WW.

Don't make this comfy for WW. That will come back to bite you.

Grandparents should see the blood on the floor and MAKE THEMSELVES AVAILABLE TO SIT. This is an emergency.

Don't you dare back down on WW meeting the wife. That worked miracles for us. Don't give that up North I mean it.

North,

Allowing your WW to SEE the consequences of her actions should not be debatable...

EVERY TIME your WW thinks of the OM after the meeting she will see the pain on the OM's wife face.

I DEMANDED Mrs.Flint apologize face to face to my ex-brother's betrayed W.

That is what allowed her to see her affair for what it was....

a cruel self indulgence that was destroying two families.

You are sooooooo right...

this is the nail in the coffin for your WW's affair fantasy.

God bless.

Jim

Your WW called Daddy because you were, or soon will be, "mean" to her?

What is she, twelve?

Your wife obviously never learned that actions have consequences. Now might be a good time for her first lesson.

You, WW, and OMW - make it happen. Let your WW see the impact of her infidelity on someone besides yourself.

It's totally agreeable - this is a part of exposure, and is not negotiable.

Stand firm.

Additionally, you now have the answer to her continual reluctance to totally commit to recovery.

Keep that in mind moving forward.

When you get married, you leave the childhood home behind to be one flesh. You are completely right to ask her to come over. Her love and fantasy must end.

You are being too nice, too doormat-ey again.

As I PREDICTED, your ww would have taken any opportunity to NOT talk to omw to avoid the inevitable clash of fantasy vs. real life.

But here my advice for right now. DO NOT HAVE OMW OVER TO YOUR HOUSE. Why? Well we know little about omw except she is a bw. We know nothing of her mental status, and while she may be perfectly fine, she may not be, on the other hand, emotionally well, and this confrontation should happen IN A PUBLIC PLACE, a place where people don't usually scream or hhave an opportunity to go insane.

This needs to be done in a SAFE ENVIRONMENT ok? Not at your house where your little children are. Again, we don't know the specifics on omw or her stability right now.

I agree with everybody else, and said from the get-go today that your WW NEEDS TO MEET AND SEE OMW. She has to process the enormity of the situation. And yes, I agree that this was a pa. I don't see how you could think anything else, esp since the behavior is so erratic from your ww and the continued lies show the CONTINUATION AND COOPERATION betwen ww and om to further the lies they are saying to YOU, NW.

Your ww had to put some thought into how she would further defraud you and lie. I am going to be more than blunt with you. It took a calculated risk and some real thought to figure out how to debunk NW and not have her bh find out she was still getting her fix of the om.

Her confession of OM being PLAN B to her, showed that he is still 1)very much in her life and 2)that if you had not taken these precautions you've already taken, that your ww WOULD BE IN A SERIOUS R WITH POSOM and that she'd want this sh*t stain of a man around your kids.

I see your ww as possibly still IN THE AFFAIR. If there is secret contact via a cell phone, then HOW CAN YOU VERIFY there has not been PHYSICAL contact with them? You can only monitor so much for so long.

I also tonight would have A VAR WITH YOU to protect you, in case ww begins acting crazy and trying to blame you for this, trying to turn you into the enemy or bad guy. she's already whined to daddy on this one, and when a wayward is cornered, they do UNPREDICTABLE THINGS. Like when you corner a scared, rabid dog. They're gonna bite.

But don't put on the kid gloves. You just need to expose (let omw and ww meet and in a safe, neutral location not at your home for a safety issue) and also to have a var to protect you in case ww goes freakin' insane.

WW's cover is now blown. Her secret cell caper has been blown sky high. You have talked and confirmed contact with om. But seriously, what man chases a woman for a PHONE conversation huh? He's been talking to her for a while, I'd guess. And I'm guessing all talky talk and no booty can make [censored] an unhappy guy.

Thus, I am seriously asking you to consider if this is a pa.

If your ww is not going to make a huge effort in trying to right this wrong today, then she goes out with the trash, because she is behaving trashy. Good moms don't lie to their husbands so they can talk to scuzzy serial cheaters behind the backs of their husbands.

You did call it spot on when you saw the switch in her behavior. When she became morose, sullen, and moody and that signaled the beginning possibly of the affair being resumed. You need to be prepered for this ok NW?

Look. An affair is an ugly thing. You get absolutely ugly behaviors from it. People who might have never even considered doing these kind of immoral acts you find doing CRAZY things. Like my xh, a very once conservative man, even a bit more conservative than me spiritually. He was a Baptist, I am a Methodist and have also worshipped Episcopal many a time. My xh used to watch tv and see shows about abortions and start preaching at me how they were so wrong, and how you'd go to hell, etc. He also once was nominated for a deacon at our church.

This SAME man cheated on his affairage wifey, WITH A STRIPPER, and got the STRIPPER PREGNANT and then forced her to have an abortion ok?

Like I said. Affairs make people freakin' insane and their actions go off the deep end. They are no longer in control of their normal thinking brains, and those who love them *the BS and kids* become the flip side, their enemy, because you are the barrier between the affair. It's all for the affair! They will sacrifice everything in their paths for their own cheap, sleazy, short term satisfaction.

So either she is in 100 percent or not. LIke the movie Oceans' 11, "You're either IN or you're OUT". And if she doesn't do the heavy lifting right now, face the omw head on, and have the most transparent discussion with you, including handing over her phone, then that means SHE IS OUT.

Which further means, YOU NW, NEED TO PUT HER OUT and go to a darkest of dark plan B.

Let daddy support sleazy daughter if she isn't going to be a proper mother or wife to you. Let her live at home. Or better yet, let mommy and daddy come home tonight to find sitting on their front door steps, their sleazy affair mongering daughter and her bags. DO NOT LET KIDS GO W/HER.

She will show you tonight if the affair went further underground or not.

Sadly NW, I think it has gone further underground. Why? If an affair is over, then there is nothing further to discuss. I think they came up with a ruse, a huge lie, to cover up their continued contact when you busted them. I think they already had a lie cooked up between them.

Plus, if OM is a serial cheater, they get quite sophisticated in their cheating abilities over time. Take it from Darth my xh, some pos cheaters ELEVATE IT TO AN ART FORM. My xh could.

Sorry NW, something smells here with your ww. I smell an affair that has gone further underground.

Furthemore, your ww NOW knows you are monitoring her. Do you know that? She may not know of mobistealth, but she knows you can find out.

I would go thru her vehicle top to bottom, every nook and cranny, any possible hiding place for another affair phone. I sure would. She knows you are watching.

I'd plant var in her vehicle too, as well as gps now. I seriously think this has gone far underground.

Give the little gal and hanky and haul her [censored] over to see the OMW. Good grief. What does that mean not "doing so well with the emotions?" Well, she needs to buck up real quick then, doesn't she?

NW, don't you DARE back down just because your wife is a coward. She needs to go face this woman like a big gurl. If she is a big enough gurl to drive a big gurl car, she is a big enough girl to FACE the OM's wife. Hold her accountable, NW!

SERIOUSLY.

WW aint' gonna do it on her own. Mine didn't. I had to force it, and then she only escaped because OM's GF didn't answer calls, or call when she stated she would.

Time to own up.

Peachy's got a good point, North - meet her at a neutral public place. That will help things on a fairly even keel.

Side note on the cell phone - remove her texting feature. Tell her she's all done with texting now. That phone needs to be for phone conversations with you and the kids.

When checking the car..... check and see if any of the spaces in the center console come up for cleaning. My FWH was able to hide the phone and the condoms under the change holder. I noticed it had some scratches around the outside and that was where he was using the key to pry it up. Never would have noticed if I was not looking for it.

Hey NW, sorry to hear this has happened today. I think you been given the best advice by others. Hang in there, man.