Cymbalta is an SNRI (it acts on norepinephrine). I can't vouch for its sexual side effects, but I was on a standard dose for a while and I thought my heart was going to explode out of my chest.

Would either of you consider her meeting some of your need with sexual contact other than intercourse (hopefully for a limited time) -- hand or oral? With no expectation that she HAS to become aroused or more? It takes some pressure off her.

In my work as a family doc, I hear the sequence you guys might be following many times. Wife tired, depressed, meds, whatever-- declines sexual contact. Husband hurt by rejection, stops initiating. Paradox for (most) women, the longer they go without sex, the more they can do without it, so they will not intitate. Opposite for (most) men, of course. If wife can be drawn into sexual activity in a less intense way, sometimes starts to feel a bit aroused, and sometimes can go from there (over longer period of time, not that episode usually). Husband, of course, has to avoid feeling hurt that the feeling is not more mutual, that is just where you have ended up now.

Often hard to discuss, so emotionally loaded. Not sure fire of course, and needs to be combined with meeting wife's other emotional needs, but worth a try if POJA finds it to be acceptable.

Oh boy, does this sound familiar!

For years and years, I was too tired, unaroused and not getting my ENs filled. Meanwhile my husband was not getting his ENs met and feeling lonelier and lonelier inside our marriage. It didn't get any better as the kids grew up - it got worse as they go to bed the same time as us practically and we have thin walls*...

He had an affair, but we are recovering really well and have obviously talked about SF a lot. There have been some books recently tellng women to just do it regardless of how they feel initially. I haven't read them but have read excerpts in the papers and from my side of the SF drought, they actually make a lot of sense.

I think a lot of women genuinely do lose their mojo after child birth. Hormones, exhaustion, whatever. And then, they have children hanging off them for years - many years if you have several children and a large gap. During that time, men can get lonel, lose confidence and give up making advances. So how do you know when your mojo is back?

I think as a woman you have to do a sort of duty bonk on a regular basis. You have to try and enjoy it and certainly try and make sure your husband enjoys it. When your mojo starts to come back, you will be the first to know it! And in the meantime, you will hopefully be getting affection and intimate conversation etc - and a husband who is less likely to have an affair!

I didn't do this so I can't guarantee it. When we went through hysterical bonding I was amazed how sexy I felt, having felt dead below the waist for about 10 years. My mojo had come back some time in the interim and I didn't know it - what a waste! We are still having a great time 11 months on. It's getting better, even at my age, all the time so I don't believe it is hysterical bonding any more.

* We have the telvision on in the bedroom for noise cover. Am I the only lady who gets turned on by the late night news as background music? But actually I don't mind the kids knowing we have sex - I want them to know what a happy marriage entails!

One implication of this is that I think it is worth considering not backing off from SF but try and find the books I mentioned and POJA their suggestions.

We've actually discussed this, but it just feels *wrong* you know? Almost insulting, pity sex I suppose. I don't know, it's a mess. She's said she is now so concerned with performance that that is holding her back. That there's so much underlying pressure that it's making it worse. I can empathize with that.

The cycle you mentioned is dead on.

Thanks for the insight BlueMum, I've heard (and so has the W) that sometimes you have to fake it to make it. Sure, that'd be great but also would make me feel guilty.

After our last trial run, we both talked for a few hours about it and other things. We both agreed it felt awkward, but she insisted that she didn't do anything that she didn't want to do and to not feel guilty about anything. The whole act was just so impersonal even though neither wanted it to be.

Now that we know how the last time ended, we're both scared to repeat history--her all the more so, me much less so. For me, practice makes perfect, just have to throw yourself into some situations if you want to get out of them.

Ugh.

AD's take a major toll on libido. I was on Zoloft once and actually prayed that the significant other wouldn't try anything because I simply wanted to sleep.

Same with some others I tried. The AD's are probably a big factor of the equation.

As far as all the other stuff goes, I believe a lot of a woman's desire for SF lies in her feelings about you and how well you fullfill her emotional needs.

She obviously has enough of a libido to seek attention from another man.

Find out what makes her tick, but the AD's are a big part of why she feels nothing.

Yep, believe this is a key factor but proving elusive. That is, what *should* make an impact, or what used to, doesn't seem to as much these days.

She and the psych are tweaking her meds, we just spent about 1/2 hour talking about it. She said she's tired of tweaking things...I don't blame her.

On the combo that she's on now, she's generally emotionless, just kind of there and somewhat mellow. It's hard to have a conversation with someone when you get a one word answer, and we talked about this as well. She said she meant no malice or anything and appreciated getting the outside-looking-in perspective.

Oh well.

An update of sorts...

Wife's EA with co-worker started around June 2010 and ended around October for, I suspect, about a month. I think it's coming back because, lately, I'm getting the familiar fog babble....

1. I just don't know that I want to be married.
2. I don't know what I want.
3. I just don't feel that connection with you.
4. [Various statements rewriting history]
5. I'm tired of trying [Oops, I didn't know she was trying]
6. I love you [but there's an unsaid "but" there]
7. We're just roommates.
8. I'm tired of hurting you. To which I replied "then stop"
9. I just don't know if I have anything more to give. [Oops again, didn't realize you were giving that much these days]

I've decided that I'm in this marriage for the following reasons:

1. I (still?) have hopes for better days.
2. I don't want to see my kids only half of the time as would happen with 50-50 custody.
3. I don't want my kids calling another man daddy.

There's no real proof to be had of an EA by snooping, it's just my gut feeling. Her parents know, she's lost all of her friends because they took my side so that's out, and I just don't know what else to do.

I really want to start sleeping in the spare bedroom, to just disengage from all this...a quasi-Plan B I guess, just SOMETHING! But there's no way she would leave the house and I don't want to because, well, I'm just not going to.

She acts fine around me all the time, you wouldn't know something was wrong except for the no SF since last May or so. It's like she's not wanting to totally commit, but not wanting to totally break. Cake eating I guess.

Thoughts? What do y'all think of the separate sleeping arrangements? We're still in the same bed and I feel no control at all--just looking for a stand to take.

I asked my W if we should sleep in separate rooms. She kind of laughed and said "no" like it was the dumbest thing I'd ever said.

I just feel like a doormat for sleeping in the same bed, not even knowing if the EA is back on or not. As my W said, we sure do make good roommates--but roommates typically don't sleep together.

I'd leave the house if we didn't have kids. Kind of stuck it seems.

Anyone have any insight or have thought the same things? Truth is, I think I just want to hurt my W like she's hurt me but know, deep down, that it wouldn't be right. If the opportunity arose, I'd be ripe for a RA but know that I could never take that step. I could never do what she's done to me. I'm above that. Take the high road then?

Our ditsy MC suggested a separation to me about a month ago. I told her that was just practice for divorce and to please not suggest that to my W. She said ok. I haven't been back to see the MC, but W did and doesn't seem unhappy with her. Ugh.

My WW and I are having problems with sleeping arrangements. She refuses to sleep in our bed because �that is what you do with someone you love�. She wants me to rotate sleeping on the couch so she gets the bed one day; I get it the next etc.

My response was �I will not leave my marital bed so that you can lay in it and text OM all night long, you are welcome to share the bed with me but I will not share it with you and OM, physically or emotionally.�

She wants the bed so she can be closer to the kids and feels that I am punishing her and trying to keep them away from her. I told her she is welcome to return at any time but that I will not be leaving. We are also seeing a MC (who is versed in MB). We did an activity to list possible sleeping arrangements that would be acceptable to both of us. After talking about rotating, moving out, and any number of other ideas we agreed that we could get rid of the big bed and have 2 smaller beds in the same room. I am not sure this is ideal or how well that would work in your situation.

I also understand part of you wanting your WW to hurt like she has hurt you. This is epically true when WW continues to hurt you and have no care for your feelings. I try to remind myself that this is not a game, that there is no points, and that there will either be 2 winners or 2 losers at the end of this (more with children of course).

You're right, it's not a game and I keep trying to remember that.

I did order a monitoring thing that I'll try to put on her cell phone tonight. Her phone is one of those touch-screen jobs and it's a nightmare to snoop. Three times I've accidentally dialed a number while going through the recent calls.

How I haven't gotten caught is a mystery, but this is the last avenue that I can see as to whether or not anything is going on.

Though it'd kill our finances, I wish she'd get fired from her job. That'd definitely crimp the thing with OM. But, she doesn't get along with her boss and is actively looking for something else. Here's hoping.

Well, so far the cell phone spy software is a bust. It pulled up everything since October, when she got the phone, and it's clean. Now, I don't know if it pulled up things that were deleted or not.

I'm still checking, though. I've got it so ingrained in my head that she's cheating, that I don't feel anything when I don't see evidence of it. Could it really be over? What if it isn't?

Maybe me thinking she's cheating gives me some "reason" for all this. It's like I've been focusing on an A for so long that now I'm burned out. That breaking up an A is the easy route to take, while correcting 14 years of us neglecting EN's is obviously so much harder to do...especially when you're the only one that seems to be trying.

I feel like I'm just going through the motions here. I'm burned out as people warn when doing a Plan A.

But W acts like nothing's wrong.

Hmmm...could she have gotten another phone?

I don't think so unless someone else is paying for it and she keeps it at work. The more I think about it, I think she's just checked out of the marriage and is waiting me out.

From recent conversations, she does resent the stew out of me for trying when I didn't years ago. To nearly everything "new" she responds "Well you didn't do that before" or "I tried for a long time to get you to ____." Well, I could say the same thing and we went over that.

The difference is that I recognize that the past is the past--you cannot do a thing about it except either get over it, move forward, learn from your mistakes or keep rehashing it. She cannot seem to move to that point.

My wife said something similar to me not long ago.

I was attempting to talk about something related to our relationship and she asked me why I was trying now since I never cared before.

I said people CAN change! I'm proving it day by day and sometimes slip back into a bad habit but always manage to catch it. I am always on constant guard with myself and my actions.

I just don't think so, North. That one just doesn't pass the smell test. Can you do some snooping? I suspect she's got another phone. Here's the good thing: she won't want to leave it at work. If she's got one, it will be somewhere she can get to at any time. Have you snooped through her car? Her drawers? Coat pockets? Shoes in the mud room? Think. Where would she hide something?

As an example, here's a conversation we had tonight. We have this short book that I thought we may both enjoy reading together. It's by a minister Andy Stanley and she had purchased it a few months ago for us to read. We got sidetracked, didn't get around to it and, for some reason, I thought of it tonight.

Me: Hey I found that Andy Stanley book, want to read it later on tonight?
W: Ummm, sure, ok.

An hour later,

W: I'm tired, going to bed. I don't want to read that book.
Me: Ok, that's fine.
W: Why do you want to read it?
Me: Why not? Thought we'd enjoy it.
W: But why?
Me: Why not? [both of us are smiling through this exchange]
W: I've tried forever to get you to read things and you wouldn't. [A little revisionist here, but mostly true]
Me: Well that was a long time ago.
W: Oh I've gotten over it [things from the past, not just the book].
Me: Then why do you keep bringing it up? [things from the past]
W: I don't want to read the book.
Me: [Light hearted] Ok, that's fine. Why didn't you just say so the first time?
W: I dunno.

Ahh, the games we play. I'm too old to be playing games like a teenager and am tired of reliving the last fourteen years and having to second-guess everything I do.

I guess it's common for some spouses to just flat-out resent any positive changes when they weren't there before?

This fits me as well. It's exhausting.

Ugh, just remembered her company gave her a cheapo phone that they pay for. I'll have to look for it, but have never seen her use it. It's been a while and I'm not even sure she still has it.

EDIT: Found it in her purse, it's one of those flip-phones that came out a few years ago before phones got so complicated. It's clean. No internet, so that's good. A sim card reader should suffice. Will have to see how much those are.

Okay, I'll give up some of my snoop spots and give you a few I thought of for your sitch. Maybe it'll be in one of these:

Shoes in the closet. An older pair that she doesn't wear.
Gym bag. Makeup bag.
Old pair of gloves in the closet. Feminine ones, not a pair you would put on by mistake.
Sanitary napkin box.
Old jackets or coats.
Old handbags that are easily accessible to her.

Look in areas close to the bedroom and bathroom. It would be easy for her to grab the phone on her way to the bathroom. Look there.