NW - I'd suggest looking at the positive - you have an opportunity to fix things! Remember, your exposure is only about 2.5 months ago. If you guys are reading and discussing things together, that's HUGE in my book. If you're having open and honest communications, then you're starting to rebuild that trust. Once the trust returns and your friendship is strong, you have a chance to recapture the romantic aspect of your relationship IMHO. Let's face it, I can't be in love with someone that is not my friend and that I don't trust. When you love someone, you open yourself up to them, can't do that without trust.

Speaking of reading, I think one of the things I'm going to push for tomorrow during MC is that WW read SAA cover to cover. I think it'll give her some insight into her own feelings and emotions. We'll see what she says.

Thanks Andy, kind of needed to hear that--been one of those days and it's only 10 a.m.

Good luck with getting her to read SAA, and that wasn't mean to be sarcastic either. You know it'll be a DJ and likely fall on deaf ears, but, really, what else can you do?

NW - Well, in my case, this is a part of becoming more assertive. I won't allow the MC sessions to degrade into some kind of strange impasse. She says she wants a D, we dance around some other topics, I say I don't want a D and we meet again the following week to repeat the cycle.

Some of the things she said to me about her feelings, emotions, etc. are contained in SAA and she needs to see it in black and white. I guess I want her to see her situation as not being that 'unique'. If I tell her that it has helped guide me through her A, it might wet her appetite. She still wonders about the whole exposure concept. That's a double edged sword of course, but what the he!! I don't have a lot left to lose with her.

She's starting to work out more, but her eating is still off so she's still trying to find her balance. All so sad, so unnecessary and so frustrating speaking as a BS.

See, IMVHO you're in a better place. You're reading together and talking; that's a wonderful step forward. Keep it up, without being too pushy.

Yep, go to counseling, go home to the real world where nothing changes, go to counseling, go home to the real world where nothing changes.....been there before!


Geez, I thought the same thing, too but never figured out how to make it happen if her mindset wasn't there. She had to get there on her own or, realistically, the suggestion had to come from an non-biased third party (counselor). If the reading suggestion comes from you, it's a DJ and she'll resist. If it comes from a counselor, it's "helpful advice" and she'll be more likely to consider it.

So if you do ask her to read it, you might take the approach of "Hey, I think this book may help me get some understanding of why I do the things I do and I'd like to read it. Would you mind reading it with me--you can probably offer a lot of perspective that I wouldn't otherwise think about, and I think you could really help me figure out some things about myself. It'd mean a lot to me, think it over?" Then give her some time to process it and, if she says no, don't press the issue. She has the right to not want to read it--just as you have the right to not want to talk about her house.

Of course, she might learn some things as well, but you're actually telling her the truth as there are, undoubtedly, things that you could use her perspective on. If you can stomach it initially, and resist the temptation to defend yourself by lobbing LB's back at her, a little humility over the things that you did to contribute to the breakup of your marriage may allow both of you to open up to each other more.

Worth a shot and much better than saying "Hey, this book is all about why you screwed up our marriage and you can learn a lot from it!"

Honestly, though, you might start with the Love Busters book. When I tried to get my wife to read HNHN, it was so chock full of examples of adultery that my wife got defensive really fast--she felt like I chose it to try to shove the affair down her throat. I'd pretty much guarantee your wife will have the same reaction, she'll think you're trying to educate her.

With LB book, though, it talks about the underlying things we did to get where are today--and those things apply equally to us, so there is more opportunity for us both to look bad and more of an opportunity to talk about it. If that makes any sense? I think Dr. H. says it somewhere that you have to stop the LB's before you can even get to wanting to meet the needs of others.

NW - thanks for the advice. Just to be clear, so far our MC sessions have been productive, but I can see a time where we run out of legitimate topics and then the cycle starts.

The irony is that she's pretty busy now and she'll have to make time to read anything. LOL. She works late two days a week and complains about not having time to go to the gym. Ah, nothing like a small dose reality to bring a little perspective (but not enough so far). Wait until she's confronted with bills from her MIL financed POS house, including electric and gas. Suddenly, freedom translates into whatever local places you can drive to. Of course, I suppose she can always 'date' her way to a trip or two. Must be nice to have that WS mentality. I hate the 'coaster!

My wife started reading more and more. Especially after our weekend with FamilyLife Weekend to Remember (you should check that out before the moderators delete my post -- It is filled with bible verses. Means a lot to my wife and myself. But even if you're not very religious, the material is brilliant.)

She is reading Love Busters. I am re-reading HN/HN. I could get SAA in a couple weeks. She is reading Torn Asunder right now. Many similarities to Harley. We also have Love Languages and we like that one a lot too. We got Love Languages for Children (working on EN FC together. Its her #1 and my #2.)

Okay moderators, get out your red censor pens.

Here is what I am learning about my wife's reading and my reaction. I really, really need to hold back and not jump in after she reads something, "What did you think? Did you read the part about....? Well, don't you think it means...?"

Total LB to bombard her with questions as if she can't read and absorb herself. What do I think? That she is skipping over all the stuff that makes her self examine and just searching for stuff that validates her hatred of me? Of course she is not. i think more highly of her than that.

So let her read, at her own darn pace, and don't needle her to discuss the reading material any faster than she wants.

My FWW is spinning now, and its just all so overwhelming on her. I am just working on myself and providing a safe place to land when she lands. Making myslef an O&H and safe place to talk when she wants to talk.

Two things:

One, I actually appreciate knowing a little more about OM. Clearly he met an Emotional Need. But she was also escaping reality into a fantasy. Really never found out if he was even remotely capable of meeting all the EN's that I meet. But he was meeting one or two and the adrenaline and dopamine kicked in and she fell in love. It makes me upset and angry. The POSOM couldn't replace me, he just had a couple good qualities... like your sitch, someone who listened well and filled COnversation EN. (Every therapist I know says they've seen this played out with their female clients a hundred times.) But, eventually it will become a bad thing to talk about OM. And it will be a big LB in the future to bring up the A. However, right now, Harley says we are in the stage where every detail should be shared. You can't make the transference in her mind as the Man that fills all those EN's unless you understand your life partner intimately. This was a big piece of her life. It must be shared and understood right now. Ironically, I am closer for getting to see inside her mind (mainly through the emails I discovered that were written during the whole A)

Second, Depression. I could really use some help here. I haven't tried to understand. But I take it that, the most important thing to remember with a depressed spouse is that you can't fix it. Stop trying. My wife was depressed tonight ("I am trying to be mother, sister, friend, wife, daughter... and I am achieving only 10% at any of them.") I did my best to comfort her. Just give a hug. Pray. Tell her how wonderful she is and how the world sees her as able to take on anything and so do I. But I second guess myself. Was that all wrongheaded way to help depressed spouse?

What have you learned NW about depression? You always seem to be really insightful.

Agreed. I quit talking about the a-hole last week. She's way beyond on board with this marriage now though I admit that I'm still shaken from having my world torn apart last June.

Tonight was a mess that started out good but we didn't quit talking when we should have. Ever have one of those nights when you just cannot let something go that you know you should?

Since you're a guy, I'll just say the frustration on my part stems from a lack of SF. Enough said?

We had a good conversation in that there were no LB's, but how in the hell do you POJA something like SF? I know better than to get into these types of conversations (hey, I'm not a complete pig!) but when she keeps asking me what's wrong, what can she do, I get tired of lying and just put it all out there.

I can pretty much say that I have no secrets left, but didn't feel entirely safe in letting those go. You know? She did ok with not shutting down as I completely sprung this on her.

I don't know, what a freaking mess but we're both in complete agreement that we're moving ahead with rebuilding this and recovering from what we've both done to each other.

The simple thing is, my $LB balance never got as low as my FWW's and now I'm, for the first time in a long time, actually starting to fall in love with my wife again but she isn't there yet. Close, but not there yet. Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


So you still think I'm insightful

I think there's "depressed" where you're kind of in the dumps and "depression" where there's a chemical imbalance that the patient has zero control over. I had the first during the worst of this...it was caused by outside influences. My wife has the second, and has had so for probably 15-20 years.

You're right. You cannot fix it and trying to causes nothing but problems. Just listen and don't say anything that would insinuate that you "understand"---because you don't understand and to say that you do insults them. Sounds like you did just right--just be there, offer a place to land. A few random things that I learned the hard way:

1. Don't tell her to just get over it or look on the bright side or just to concentrate on the good things in life. She cannot do it even though she wants to, no more than you can stop the hiccups.

2. Don't tell her that her depression is making you depressed. Doesn't fly.

Psychiatrists can offer various prescription meds to counter depressions. It's not an exact science, though. From what I understand, patients just try various medicines at various doses until something feels right. It's a crap shoot, and there are side-effects that can make watching the process frustrating. But once the dosage is right, it does make a difference.

Yes; Hard to avoid. I find myself just waiting for an opening. Something on my mind that I have wanted and wanted to get out. Remember not to pile on topics that aren't central to the conversation. Also, don't gunnysack 'em (pile on more wood for the fire) it just builds and builds.

So you are recovering? That's great news. Do you have a recovery plan? Read Harley.

SF: I am unclear. Is it totally missing? I mean, none whatsoever in a long time?

Falling in love with your wife!!! YES!!! I know that feeling. It really recaptures that euphoric adrenaline you had years and years ago. Only you won't be on the same page. We aren't. She is slowly taking me back. I am googly ga ga over her. But that puts pressure on her. Tap into this new love you have for her and use it to meet all her EN's. DOn't get too sad that she's not there with you. You can't manipulate her into loving you faster. Big LB. Just show her your love through meeting her EN and filling her $LB. If she is in recovery, those deposits will start to stick. For the longest time, all the $LB deposits you and I were making just went nowhere while the WW was detached from the M.

Yep, SF has been completely missing since May 2010.

Looking at the Three States that Harley mentions, I was briefly in Intimacy, saw that she wasn't, and pretty much skipped Conflict and headed straight to Withdrawal.

I'm just worn out. My wife actually said to let her take the reigns for a while, that it wasn't fair for me to carry the burden of rebuilding this marriage all of the time. I just don't know what to do with the sudden honesty and empathy that I'd been hoping to receive for such a long time. I really do intend to meet all of her EN's, but I feel like she picks and chooses what she wants to fulfill. But that's her perogative, right?

Dunno, stretch. Just one of those days and I've got to get back on that damn horse again.

That's pretty much it and not getting down is easier said than done but I get what you're saying. Thanks.

North... Norse... Thor?




Anyway... it's something you will come back to over and over; recovery is a roller coaster.

You'll be up, you'll be down, you will be in love, you won't be able to stand the sight of her. Until that coaster settles, it's really hard to tell much of anything.

Hang on bud, you can do this.

Thanks, HHH.

No, Northwood is just a local place name that came to mind when creating my screename. Maybe I could come up with a better story though?

Yeah, kind of in the valley on the coaster today and am dreading our scheduled evening talk. Just tired of being in the same place day after day after day. She's just being so positive about all this, I don't know why the hell I'm acting this way. This is what I want, after all.

Might have to borrow that line about the year 2010 from your signature--always get a wry laugh when I read it.

It's the coaster, and it's self protection.

If anyone, other than your wife, had dealt you such a painful blow, would your response have been to draw them closer?

Probably not. We feel aversion towards those who hurt us for a reason; they may do it again.

So, what you are trying to do is against your base nature.

I have finally come off of the ups and downs, and find myself just down.

Like I said, on the coaster, it was some days I could be totally in love with FWW, and some days I just didn't want to look at her, or hear her voice.

Now, I'm nowhere near that low, but right now, I'm not really "in love."

What to do? Be honest with FWW. Her response? Crank up UA time.

North, if your FWW is positive, that is a GOOD thing.

Every time I hear it, I rage, but even Dr. Harley says that sometimes infidelity becomes the catalyst for creating a better marriage.

In our case, it broke a lot of the storybook ideas of marriage that FWW clung to, especially when she had to consider being the villain in the story.

So, 3 things to keep you centered as the coaster continues;

Forgiveness - will be earned through significant action over time by your FWW. You won't be able to just "give" it. Though I have seen people state they forgive their spouses early on, often times this statement is followed by feelings and actions not consistent with forgiveness. It won't be had while you are still going through the grieving process - once you reach and settle at acceptance, it will become more possible. Don't let a lack of forgiveness (if it exists) keep you down. I haven't done it 1 year in, and the only time I think about it, is when I tell other people here to not think about it.

Trust - should never have had it in the first place. Easy enough. Will you ever trust again? Maybe, but it's not really in your best interest, or the best interest of the marriage.

Time - it takes time to grieve. It's taken me a full year just to overcome the grieving process. It takes time to restore love. The oft-cited time line minimum is 2 years, extending to 5. Allow that time to work the plan before any possible decisions are made.


As for her being positive; she has made a mistake that has carried with it a cost of emotional trauma to herself, and to her husband, and possibly her family. In her mind, it's simple "I'll never do THAT again!"

Not so simple for the betrayed.

I see it all the time in my own wife. Consider it a good thing.

Thanks HHH, it helps to hear another perspective!

As for forgiveness, no, I don't think I've reached that point yet. Closer, but not there yet. But I want to, and want certain conditions to be met as well so that I feel safe in the marriage. The Taker in me is really strong these days. It's like an annoying relative, it just keeps coming back and won't go home!

I've seen a pattern where I can be "good" for about two days before starting to withdraw again. Hope it ends soon!

UA time has suffered and is a Catch-22 with me. I understand it's required for this process to work and I see the benefits when it is applied properly with us. But, I'm often in such a place that the thought of UA time doesn't agree with me. Too much resentment and I run the risk of a LB in the conversation. Make sense? I guess the solution is to just plow ahead with it.

Trust, like your year 2010, is enough said.

Time, I want patience and I want it now! I imagine my three year old throwing a tantrum when I say that. I know, it doesn't work that way. But, we've come a long way since January and it seems like that was years ago.

Back on the coaster I guess. I'll make UA time more of a priority regardless of how I feel about it. Doing nothing didn't work too well before, probably won't work this time around, either. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, it really helps to hear from others.

North, how does your FWW react when you withdraw?

NW - your 3rd paragraph about UA time and resentment could have been written by my WW. Unfortunately for me, my WW won't plow through it. She just avoids it - being passive. You're being active. Please keep it up, this is what it will take to get your M back on track. Things are going to be uncomfortable and unnatural at the beginning. Maybe I can get you to see that - I have not been successful with my WW on this front.

The coaster can be screwed up, Andy. You fight to get them back, and then you go "Wait... do I really want her back?"

Ack!


It's maddening at times.