You mentioned money. Seems to be a common denominator throughout this forum...

I guess when times were better, and both spouses were gainfully employed and there was money in savings accounts, the thought of leaving on your own could be supported with money.

Now money plays a huge part in that decision making process, from both sides.

The WS has to think about how they are gonna pay the bills on their own, and the BS thinks the same about how to pay for things when WS is gone.

It's a lose-lose proposition. Both sides are gonna suffer financially, and that will impact the children if there are any, and certainly affet the current living quarters for each spouse.

Heavy stuff, but without the financial piece of the puzzle, I think waywards would be more inclined to SCRAM faster than STAY.

So the poor economy may be helping us BS's after all!

Maybe so, TB. This whole thing has just been one big stinking steamy pile. It's like my "real" life and "this" life diverged last summer, and I can see my "real" life waaaayyyyyyy over there flipping me the bird while I'm stuck over here.

I'm ready for this crap to be over with. Uggh. Gotta stop the pity party that I feel coming on

Your venting here was good and healthy.

Good for you for recognizing that you can't fight the depression.

Micro-managing your marriage is a total drain. Yes we need practice. Its good to keep short accounts. So my wife and I sometimes sit down and process a mini-convesation that happened moments ago. Its practice. Its better to sit down and say to each other, "What just happened back there?" And evaluate how you both handled a particular marriage moment. Learn and move on. Yes, that's important. But, man! That micro-managing gets tiresome.

I've learned that doing nothing and just being present helps the depression. Just knowing you are there and she can count on you. Do something nice. Deposit love units... but do them quietly, generously, don't try to get praise and admiration. Bring her tea, a blanket, the newspaper. Let her pick the TV show. Make dinner and finish the dishes. Whatever. But if you make a big deal out of it... that depresses her because she has to make effort to micromanage your EN for admiration.

My wife loves the lap puppy because he needs nothing. He just sits there... he is present. Its unconditional. He comforts her.

You can do that too. My PC advises that often comforting a depressed person is just sitting nearby, quietly. Maybe hold her hand, but don't push for more affection than she wants.

I don't understand the depression aspect you face where you believe: (there is nothing going on in there... its blank.) I believe my wife gets a hamster wheel going and her brain goes on overdrive as she talks to herself or her imaginary friends and winds some story around and around in her head. I don't have experience with what you describe where: "no thoughts are really there."

As for MC. Try not to do all the talking. Part of what's going on is she is not as committed to the M as you are. So sitting back and watching you twist in counselling is just fine with her. She can avoid the spotlight and avoid confronting herself, her role, her personal work. Well... at least that's my projection of my sitch on your W.

Could the MC be a trigger for her, NW? It sounds like things weren't so bad before and after, that's why I ask... I remember my H complaining on the way to the MC that it reminded him that he was the "bad guy"...

Ladies and gentleman, a bit on depression;


Here

Often times on this board it is suggested that someone going through depression start journaling.

This suggestion is supported in the article;


Also;



Food for thought, gentleman.

This came to mind as I remembered previously reading an article where the argument was made that depression was a necessary evolutionary adaptation to social groups.

Oh, to add to this;

When depression is caused by facing infidelity, it is the concepts, policies, and guidelines of MB that are designed to problem solve the issue.

Chin up!

Hey stretch, good advice there. Took a nice break from micro-managing this afternoon, went out to lunch and ate way to much. Guess I'll be dragging those larger clothes out again soon.

But it was a bit of "normal" that we, for some reason, keep forgetting to go for. Beats me why we do it.

We've talked about me always talking in MC and she agrees with it. Before, she was much more talkative. It's just my nature to talk too much, I guess...trying to get everything out there to make the most of the 50-minutes...to get this thing rolling! You know how it is.

So I don't know if it's a lack of commitment, rather, a lack of being at a similar level of commitment that I'm at. If we're on a road trip from Detroit south to New Orleans, I'm in Memphis and she's still looking at a Ford factory trying to get cruddy snow out of her shoes. Make sense?

But, I think there is some truth in her not having 100% confronted the issues of the affair. She's mostly there, but I think it maybe overwhelms her sometimes and triggers the depression cycle. Or vice versa, who the hell knows. I'm no psychiatrist, and I don't even play one on TV!

As for the "no thoughts are there" comment about her depression, that's just what she tells me when trying to describe it. When she's quiet and just staring at the TV, it looks like she's pondering the meaning of life and Einstein's theory of whatever he studied, but she's really just staring at the TV. Not really watching it, not really thinking about anything, just blankly there. Dunno. Guess you just have to see it in person or something. It's a little strange at first.

On her "up" swings, she doesn't go completely manic racing around the house from one thing to another, but there is a noticeable lack of being able to concentrate sometimes, or abandoning one project for another. There's an inconsistency there that is easy to confuse with laziness or "I don't give a damn" and it's just part of this chemical imbalance.

The middle ground is kind of nice, but doesn't last all that long. Per my signature, she hit the low-high or middle ground around March 24th when she got on board with this. She made it a little while and still swears she's on board, just kind of in a funk.

It makes sense to me and this is my opportunity to actually do something for her instead of try to get her to just snap out of it. But, damn, it's really hard to live with someone like this. I think that's a common complaint with spouses of depressed people. It's frustrating and hard not to take things personal.

I've thought about it and added it to my silent list of possibles. I'm trying to figure out what each trigger is and do what I can with it. Yes, I think some of it is a reminder of being the "bad guy"...not really sure what to do about that, though.

Any thoughts?

HHH, thanks for the psych info on this mess. It's strange how most of these mental illnesses are just really some leftover evolution function or just a bunch of chemicals that go nuts.

The depression (worsened by the lack of EN's being met by either of us, along with her poor boundaries, etc.) helped caused the affair, but the affair helped fuel the depression as well. So it became a real cycle. They kind of fed off of each other which is why, today, I have such a hard time distinguishing between the two and get massively triggered when she slips down.

Now, though, the MB concepts are my best defense against the depression.

Back in the saddle for now....

We stopped going to MC because it was basically doing all of the things that the Harleys avoid, like talking about the past, the A, etc, airing our complaints out in front of each other. It just wasn't good.

Are you two discussing the past or the A in MC? How does your W feel about going? Can you ask her if she is being triggered by going?

It seems the last few times we've just done navel gazing about the disconnect (lack of romantic love) where she just agrees it's a problem and doesn't know what to do about it. I get frustrated, agree that it is the problem but we're not doing anything to move forward, and the MC then agrees with me.

Rinse and repeat.

I actually used the "navel gazing" quote yesterday, MC laughed and said it made perfect sense that we've analyzed the stew out of everything and are now at "what's next?" Then he asked *us* what's next---like my W is going to be able to answer that or that she'd really take my input as well as if she heard it from a third party such as, oh, I don't know, a marriage counselor?

I'm really trying to figure out how to get this shifted to the $200/session thing with the Harleys. Tips greatly needed, I'll work the money thing out on my end somehow

I'll ask my W about how she feels about going to MC and if she's being triggered or not. Great question, thanks for posting that to me. It's good to get input from those outside looking in.

In that sense, the Online program might be more cost-effective than the per-session rate.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi9000_courses.html

Most likely, program 3B.

Sound about right?

It is, HHH, and I agree, NW, that for you that would be a better way to go.

I would probably only look closer at the coaching first instead of online seminar if the WS hasn't completed the Just Compensation/EP part of recovery or for some other urgent issue...

HHH & SusieQ,

Thanks for the suggestions, will read through it and see what I think.

More questions to follow, I'm sure. Have y'all done these courses? That's not to question the advice, rather to pick your brains and get opinions. You know, user reviews

Will also need some tips on how to get wife in agreement. We're reading LB book right now, she seems to like it--maybe a 75% approval rating? Thoughts or suggestions? I'm likely to do a DJ if I'm not careful, would like to get it right the first time.

Brother, I can't even afford to pay attention right now.


We work mainly off of the website articles, read through most of SAA (after extensive web articles, a lot was retread), and if stuff gets sticky, we have HNHNFP.

Actually... it might be time to start doing some bed-time reading again...

Yeah, I think I need a coupon for that as well

At first my wife cynically thought this was an internet scam filled with suckers who all paid $1800 so they were all motivated to get us to pay that money so they felt better. Man, the odd defenses and justifications a fogged up wayward will throw outthere. ?...

Well, let's give that some contrast.

I looked up a marriage retreat from a similarly reputable Psychologist in my region. The retreat was 2 days, with 16 hours of interaction with the Psychologist and his wife who is also a clinical pyschologist. The pedigree is similar; professor emeritus at a regional university, years of work in recovering marriages, several published works, etc, etc, etc.


HOWEVER, this particular professional does NOT have; a plethora of printed material available freely over the web, free access to a daily radio program, or a support forum.

In fact, his web site is simply an advertisement for the professional and his services and wares.

The cost of this 1 weekend retreat (2 nights) is $4500.

From an economic standpoint, this professional cannot even touch what MB presents.

Nobody gets scammed from a dime here, and THAT is downright respectable.

Can't say enough good things about the online seminar. We had read all the principles and some of the books, but it is SO much easier listening to Dr Harley explain it all. My H was mostly on board before we did the seminar but he really didn't get how important some of the concepts were, probably the biggest one being POJA. He is basically a big Dr Harley fan now...before I think he was just going along with it.

Between the accountability coach and the use of the private forum with access to Dr Harley (that's where I got that quote about UA time), I really do feel it is $$ well spent.

I wish we just started out this way instead of waiting so long... HTH

Susie,

So the Online program does not include the Home Study (hard copy) papers, right? Does it just give links to download and print out the forms?

I guess I'm asking if you have to have the Home Study or would be missing something from the Online if you didn't buy the home study.

My wife may be a hard sell at $1,000. Might as well be a million right now. I'd best not continue this line of thought as it's going to tick me off at how much financial damage she and this MF caused.

Anyways, I asked W about her thoughts on continuing the MC. She said she thought it helped to talk things over with the MC, didn't find it to be a trigger. She asked if I thought it was, I said it sometimes is and related the discussion where we just always seemed to "navel gaze" and not really have a plan. She agreed, but only in concept and not really as to how to fix it.

I'm getting close to the point where I won't be married at all costs--no, I think I'm already there, it's just that I DO want to be with my kids 100% of the time at all costs. That's such a hard thing to reconcile. It just seems like I'm always the one that has to pick her our whatever up and I'm tired of not having the favor returned. Old Taker is kind of coming out again. Great.

I feel the burden is almost all on me, she disagrees, then says "Well I thought I was pulling some weight here, I'll try harder" which, effectively, puts the burden on me to either confirm or deny that she is doing so. But she's not trying hard in the areas that mean a damn. If you can do a little work to earn fifty cents, or bust your [censored] to earn fifty dollars, which would you do? She does the former and gets down when I act like it's not enough. I favor the later.