I am long time lurker, And I wondered what all the great minds of Marriagebuilers thought when I read this artile. It seemed very Marriagebuilder-esk. Really reminded me of the Gaslighting theory. Also, so nice to read an article that really stressed the grass ain't greener on the other side.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-code/the-ireali-reason-couples_b_660635.html

It is very UN "Marriage Builder-esque".

Dr Harley stresses the benefits of complaining about your spouse, in order to improve the marriage. He shows that spouses need to change their behaviour to meet the ENs of the other spouse. This article says the opposite.

I find all the marriage help I need in Dr Harley's writings. I find nothing of any use here.

Sorry Sugar. I really didn't mean to offend anyone. I just really thought this was pro-marriage. I heave learned so much from marriagbuilders that I have used in my own life. I rarely see articles that enforce marriage and I thought this was interesting. I guess I got my answer...but ouch...I better go back to lurking. It is clear that my opinions are not welcome here!

I also never read where Dr. Harley tells you to complain. I think finding ways to express your needs, does not have to be done by complaining.

Well he discusses complaining in this newsletter. Have you read the Newsletters forum?

There is a difference between expressing your needs and complaining. Complaining is not really about your needs, but about annoying habits and behaviour that you want your spouse to stop. Dr Harley uses the term "complaining" and sees it as a positive thing. He says that complaining allows spouses to address the problems in the marriage.

The article you linked said that spouses should not complain. Dr Harley says that dealing with complaining is seeking a way to improve the marriage. It is not a bad thing, but stuffing your complaints will lead to a sense of sacrifice and, eventually, resentment.

BL,

You asked for opinions, and I gave you mine. It was contrary to yours, but why does that make you say you'd better go back to lurking?

You (and the article) didn't offend me; I simply disagreed with you that the article was "Marriage Builder-esque". Others here might disagree with me and say that is is very MB-esque. Were you only looking for opinions favourable to the article?

Opinions that are contrary to Dr Harley's are not very favourably received here, but as I have said, others might see the article as compatible with MB. In any case, people do enjoy a discussion. I was simply giving you my take on the article. There is no need to for you to feel run off by this.

Thats very interesting given that he has always advocated complaining. How else would a spouse know there is a problem unless a complaint is made?

Well I stand corrected. And I have to admit that I haven't read many of the articles here since I first found MB. like 2000 or 2001

I usually just read the posts and the advice. I thought I followed a pretty good MB way of life.

When I first found this place, my marriage was on shakey ground, no affairs or anything, just stressful, kids were little money was tight and we argued A LOT.

I found MB and learned about eliminating lovebusters. Plan A, fulfilling each others need POJA Bounderies etc.

But like I said one of the biggest issues was arguing. Which at the time my husband said he felt like I complained too much.

I learned through reading hear, at least I thought. Flat out complaing was a LB, so I tried to find more positive ways of expressing my needs.

I was literally on the verge of divorce when I first got here. But for me and my husband when we just decided, that we really did not want to divorce, but we wanted to find a way to live together, and not fight all the time. (sounds simple, but really wasn't)

I have been married for 25 years and I think had I not found this place I would not have made it past year 10.

I think when ever I have posted though, I am almost always misunderstood. I feel like people take what I say as some sort of offense or attack or something, IDK.

I really think it may be my writing style, I have always sucked at expressing myself in writing.

I am Italian, and I use a lot of words and talk with my hands and my expressions, probably better then I do the written words.

This post alone has taken me like an hour to write and I still am not feeling like it is right but. I will post it any way.

I guess what I am trying to say is..I felt like Sugar and Melody thought I was trying to expess that this article was superior in some way to MB plan. And I was just happy to find a positive message on marriage out there.

I feel that MB is awesome. But I really am not and I can not claim to be any kind of expert. I have read the advice that you folks put out there and you are always spot on.

Melody. You are one tough cookie! I don't ever want to get on your bad side. I just wanted to discuss this a bit, because I found it interesting.

for one, One of my good friends that I work with, is from India, she is in an arranged marriage, she married at 18 yrs old, and she was a vigin. She only met her husband a couple of months before the wedding.

Well they have been married for 40 years and they are the cutest couple ever. So sweet to each other and so in love. I think when 2 people truly decide they will make it work, they are more likely to make it work.

Kind of like the buyer/renter thingy thing on here.

I thought the article was saying to not focus all your negative feelings on your spouse, commit to marriage, and happiness will be a by product.

Kind of like the cat that chases his tail and can never catch it, but when they relax and are content, the tail just finds it's way right to the cats head.

That's it. I am rambling I know, but I really am intimidated by the people here. And that sucks! Cause when I read here, I just love you guys.

Oh and one more thing, for lurkers like me. I would love to be able to "like" some of the advice people write on here with out having to post. You know like on Facebook. So many times I am reading what you all say and I just want to hit the like button, but there is none .

Ok I need sleep if you are still reading this, thanks, I am rambling and I am delirous and I am going to bed!

Without reading the articles, how can you be sure that advice posted is MB at all? There have been many people who post non-MB advice on these boards.

Read up, and start participating!

This is absolutely priceless!!!!!

I suggest reading the articles - you will get all kinds of non-MB advice on the forums - a situation that is thankfully improving but still there is nothing better than the articles and books to hear first hand what MB is all about.

Been Lurkin

I can see that this article may offer insight in to conflicts in marriage.

I don't see that it mentions complaining at all - but yes to some degree I think it does reflect the gaslighting that gets discussed on the boards.

Certainly one of the most important points that I have picked up form MB is that "marriage isn't a correctional institution". We can only really work on ourselves. WE can both own our padt in the M.

The word complain to me gives the impression of moaning and although the MB article uses the word complain I always feel with the MB materials that "complaints" should come more in the form of a respectful request rather than moans.

As I understand the overall emphasis with MB seems more about making things better and not dissecting where things have gone wrong. Improving for the future.

I think the article is interesting for those who are trying to understand themselves and see where their behaviour comes from.

Complaining is absolutely essential in marriage. It is how you tell your husband you have a problem. He can't fix anything if he doesn't know anything is wrong.

Complaining itself isn't a love buster, but often complaints are framed in love busters.

"Every guy knows girls hate it when the toilet seat is left up. Is it so hard for you to remember to put it down when you're done with your business?" *annoyed, irritated tone*

Full of love busters.

"It is really inconvenient when the toilet seat is left up. I don't like falling into the toilet. Could you try to remember to lower it when you're done?" *caring respectful tone*

Radical Honesty and Respectful Request.

Complaints aren't the problem.

The WAY complaints are often delivered is the problem.

Now your husband may also not like the respectful honest delivery. If that is the case, he too will need to realize that complaining is important. The only way you know you're doing wrong is if someone tells you.

Stick around -

I lurked here for a year before posting. I know it is scary - you don't want to be taken wrong, you don't want to be clobbered by people you respect. It's scary to put yourself out there. I know how that feels. But by participating you learn so much more.

I'm still waiting for the day ML or Pep decide to come at me with a 2x4.

Got my hardhat all ready for it

Well, I'm going to be a MB vet who departs from the other responses.

The article talks of SCAPEGOATING our troubles onto our spouse.
It is really NOT an article which addresses how to complain to our spouse. It is an article which advises us to avoid BLAMING (scapegoating) our spouse.

Two different concepts.

Scapegoating:
"I'm unhappy, and it's all YOUR fault." ... Usually said as they walk out the door with their bags packed.
> door slams shut <
Heck, SCAPEGOATING is standard wayward-operating procedure.
On the infidelity forum we call it "re-writing marital history".

Healthy marital complaint:
"When you do XYZ, I become upset. I don't like that behavior. Please change this."

That ain't SCAPEGOATING people!
That's communication.

Actual SCAPEGOATING goes hand-in-hand with an avoidance of communication.

I don't think the initial responders read the article carefully. The article has nothing to do with complaining or not complaining about your spouse.

The article talks about a person's OWN issues, and states that often one projects his/her OWN issues onto their spouse or the marriage, which leads to divorce. And then the person finds out that lo and behold, the issues are still there, because they were not the spouse's fault.

I happen to wholeheartedly agree with this. I see many folks blame the marriage or the spouse for their unhappiness, only to see them just as unhappy after they get divorced or remarried. I completely agree that people need to own up to their issues and fix them instead of blaming others. Scapegoating is so easy, but so unproductive.

AGG

I think the key word in the article linked is "criticize"

Dr. Harley DOES advocate complaining, but does NOT advocate criticizing your spouse.

I think scapegoating, as defined in the linked article, would qualify as a Love Buster (DJ?)

I don't think the initial responders read the article carefully. The article has nothing to do with complaining or not complaining about your spouse.

The article talks about a person's OWN issues, and states that often one projects his/her OWN issues onto their spouse or the marriage, which leads to divorce. And then the person finds out that lo and behold, the issues are still there, because they were not the spouse's fault.

I happen to wholeheartedly agree with this. I see many folks blame the marriage or the spouse for their unhappiness, only to see them just as unhappy after they get divorced or remarried. I completely agree that people need to own up to their issues and fix them instead of blaming others. Scapegoating is so easy, but so unproductive.

AGG


Thanks AGG. This is what I saw too I was thingking it remeinded me of WW and how they think. Thought maybe this is the real reason they stray, not necesarryly divorce. They dont' want to look at themselves so it is easier to blame your spouce. Then after you seek happiness elsewhere, you find the same unhappiness until you look inside yourself.

The article begins by finding similarities between rats attacking each other after an electric shock and humans picking a fight when they are under stress.

If we accept that stress leads to an attack on our spouse, that is not the same as "scapegoating" them. The article leaps from picking a fight to scapegoating.

Scapegoating is a very particular activity. It is more than a fight; it is saying that the other person is to blame for the first person's problems. As the article says, "That's why today, a scapegoat usually refers to an innocent person who is blamed for the suffering or wrongdoing of others." I don't accept that picking a fight and blaming an innocent person are the same thing.

Here are the passages that made me see the article as being anti-complaining:

So, here's the key lesson we can learn: When we criticize our spouses, we tend to believe we are pointing out true, objective faults. But in fact, blaming our spouse may just be our anxiety talking. As discussed above, people with higher anxiety are more likely to overreact, so spouses with high anxiety will have a greater tendency to fight-or-flee each other, which may lead to a downward spiral that sours their marriage. When the going gets tough, rats, humans and many other species scapegoat.

and

Marriage is a school for lovers, so contrary to popular belief, it's not about managing your partner. It's about managing your anxiety. This insight can help you accept yourself and your spouse as you are, for better or for worse, in sickness and in health. As my mother-in-law was fond of saying, marriage is not a "correctional institution."

That is where I saw the article not being in tune with Dr Harley, which is what BeenLurkin originally asked about, and why I brought up complaining

The point of the article was that the real reason couples divorce is because they scapegoat. Well, that is not what Dr Harley seems to have found. He deals with real unmet emotional needs and he focuses on lovebusters, and, of course, affairs. Scapegoating seems to me, from reading Surviving an Affair and the posts here, to come in when a possible OP enters the picture and the future WS begins to compare him or her unfavourably with the spouse.

Scapegoating, from my reading, is not "the real reason couples divorce". It is not the instinct to place blame on the other spouse that leads to most divorces - or at least, not that this article shows. The article states that we have this instinct, for good survival reasons, and that states that it is the cause of most divorces.

I don't see how anyone can make a blanket statement like that. I should think that research would first have to look at the the causes of individual divorces before it could say that "scapegoating" was at the heart of most of them.

The article seems to chime with our MB sensibilities because of this:

This is actually great news, because now we can give up searching for a Spouse-Upgrade. Our marriages will fare better when we let go of the illusion that the grass would be greener with a different mate.

Sure, we all know folks who would swear their ex-spouse was a dud and the chemistry they felt at first was dead wrong. But they may be kidding themselves. Their second spouse may have different traits, but the basic ways humans cope with anxiety--fight, flight or scapegoating--are always beneath the surface.

Until we become aware of our own anxiety and scapegoating instinct, we simply drag all of our baggage into our next marriage as well. That's why the divorce rate for second marriages is 60 percent, and for third marriages it's 73 percent. Things only seem different in a new relationship.

We here mainly reject the idea that the grass is greener with a new mate. We also know that unless we learn how to deal with problems in a marriage, we will move on to the next marriage and not know how to deal with the problems there, either.

However, what I saw in the article's conclusion was advice to appreciate our marriage as it is. If we are unhappy with aspects of it, that is because we are scapegoating. We need to learn that we are doing that and stop doing that.

If we are unhappy it is because we are scapegoating.

That is not what Dr Harley teaches. In fact, he teaches the opposite of what the article says, where it claims that "it is not about managing your partner". He teaches the opposite of "accept yourself and your spouse as you are". He teaches that we must manage our own behaviour in order to meet our spouse's ENs and keep their LB balance high, and that we should communicate our ENs to our spouse, so that they can meet them. We should complain about our spouse's annoying habits so that they can be eliminated. MB is about "managing your partner". It is not about accepting what you have, but about actively creating a romantic marriage.

So that is why, despite a superficial resemblance to MB in that it tells us not to walk away, I don't see any fit with Dr Harley's approach.

I did read the article carefully.

That's actually a passage I would say is in line with Dr. Harley's teachings. There is a difference between complaining about your spouse's behavior and criticizing your spouse. Criticizing is a DJ.

I would say that's half right/half wrong. Accepting yourself and your spouse "as you are" is a freeloader's attitude. But spouses should be lovers, not fighters.

It's a DJ when you take the attitude, "my way is THE way, and if my spouse would do it MY way then it would be much better"

Well it may or may not be better, and then better for whom? Better is subjective. Sometimes it's like saying chocolate is better than vanilla or strawberry is better than raspberry.

So we have to make sure that we are voicing complaints and not judgments.

Complaint, "I don't like it when you leave the seat up."

Judgment, "It's wrong to leave the seat up!"

Complaint, "I'm cold when the thermostat is set to 72 degrees."

Judgment, "The thermostat is too low, it's freezing in here."

Too often, what we call complaints are really judgments and we are being destructive to our relationships.

Sugarcane is correct. The notion that we should "accept yourself and your spouse as you are" is a freeloaders mentality and does not make for a happy marriage.

The article states that "It's about managing your anxiety." in response to anxiety provoking behavior. When we all know that is the key to a very unhappy marriage. Sucking it up and enduring annoying behavior is a surefire way to FALL OUT OF LOVE.