Sugar, no I wasn't talking about a post-nup but more about that later.

Rushing here but one difference between this situation and a normal 'end-of-Plan-B' situtation is that WH is moving back into the house at sm's request not at his and that changes a lot for me.
Of course she needs to ask for NC and committment to M as a minimum but the list of conditions above is huge and, IMO, is appropriate when the A is well and truly over and the WS is repentant which isn't the case here.

At the beginning of this thread, lots of people said 'get him home so that you can Plan A him' and what you are proposing now is not that.

Throwing this open for other views.

I have decided to go on my gut feel tonight.

H has come home. He has agreed not to go to his hometown unaccompanied for the immediate future. He has at least one more trip to finish the work on his Mum's house and said he was concerned he wouldn't get it done with me and the kids around. I said I appreciated his concerns but that I was happy to take the kids out for day trips whilst he is working in his Mum's house (she can confirm for me that he is there) but that we spend the evenings/nights together.

I have also said that he needs to put effort into our reconciliation too (unlike false recovery no.1). I think he heard me but only time will tell.

He has said he doesn't want to talk about our situation all the time and I think he is right - we need some normality.

Let's see where we go from here...

Well, I was the first person to post to sm, and here is what I said about going home:

This was in response to his saying he did not want to go home and he did not believe he would get his feelings back.

I didn't mean that sm should "make" him go home even though he did not want to be there. I did not even say that she should ask him. I said that if he wanted the marriage, he needed to go home. I did not mean that he should go home even though the affair was continuing.

I did say that Plan A had a poor chance of succeeding (in ending the affair) while he is seeing OW and I did think that Plan B would be necessary, soon.

I didn't mean then to imply that sm should coax her H back home while the affair continues, and I still don't think she should.

I envisaged sm taking steps to "ensure" (if such a thing is ever really possible) that the affair had finished, while H pulled his head out and decided whether he wanted to work on his marriage. If he did, he would have to go home straight away and not stay away while he "worked on his feelings". That would only increase the distance between them.

It might be that sm has already asked H to go home "for her and the kids" and has given him the impression that she is willing to wait for the end of the affair. I'm sorry if that has happened because of anything I said, but I would nevertheless strongly advise sm to renege on this deal. She is setting herself and the kids up for much heartache if she does not take a firm stand against the affair now. Firm conditions might not work, and he might still deceive her, but she must not give the affair her blessing.

sm you need to go back on a bad deal if that is indeed what you have done. I apologise if I encouraged you to do anything harmful for your and the children's futures. However, worse than making a bad promise to your H about letting him go home uncommittedly would be sticking to one.

SugarCane - please don't worry!

I have never had the impression that you advised me to beg him to come home and to "sit out" the affair. Quite the opposite in fact - you have encouraged me to be strong. He is coming home with a clear understanding of what I will accept and what I won't.

I have made it very clear that I will not be the third person in this marriage - if he wants to be with her he can leave me and continue with her if that's what he wants. I have also made it very clear that if I were to find out that he is still in a relationship with her there will not be a future for us (I know some people can forgive multiple false recoveries but I don't think I am one of them).

I am inclined to believe that, at present, he has no contact with OW. By having him back home I can limit (hopefully completely prevent) any opportunity for him to see OW. I appreciate they may be in contact in by phone/e-mail but I'll just have to keep snooping as much as possible.

I feel comfortable with this decision. We cannot work on our marriage if he is not at home - this is my best option.

Tully and SugarCane - your advice is helping me greatly. It's even good if you don't completely agree with each other as it gives me even more food for thought.

Thanks for being there - it's tough...

SM, I am greatly concerned by your above statement that once he's home you can limit (hopefully completely prevent) any opportunity fo him to see OW.

I'm sorry to tell you this but you do not have any control over whether he sneaks around to see OW. The only thing you control is what you are willing to live with.

Are you willing to live with an unrepentant, entitled wayward?

It looks to me that this is what you are about to sign up for.

BTDT...and have the scars to prove it.

You are setting yourself up for a false recovery. A FR is as much of a trauma as the affair itself.

SM, I was in the exact same position. I let WH come home by only requiring he agree to NC. He said some great things to me to get back home.

It was THE mistake I made that allowed sooooooo muuuuccchhh more damage into my heart. If I could go back and redo that.....

My kids were hurt tremendously all over again. I was treated so cruelly when he returned. I could have saved all of us from that if I had given him my requirements list THEN and gone into Plan B when he refused (because he most certainly would have refused).

If a WS isn't willing to put EPs in place, then it is not a safe marriage for the BS.

Dr. H told me personally that he advises that a BS Plan A for approximately 3 weeks and then go into Plan B. The purpose is to protect the BS from further harm.

If you allow WH to return without being committed to recovery, you are signing up for further harm. Please, please protect yourself.

A problem for me, sm, is that we went from talking about Plan B for several posts last week, and about how the affair has not ended and he was probably with her this weekend, to your saying that you will be talking about his coming home today. The last thing you said to me about your plans was that you would go to Plan B around 11 August. I had no idea that you had talked about his going home and now were planning to finalise that today, or soon.

I do agree that with him home, you can spend time with him which you cannot now. You can also spy more easily.

You sound as if you are prepared to take the risk that he will come home and the girls will be happier, but then you rediscover the affair and have to make him leave again. I haven't been through the moving out, in and back out again scenario but I have been through hoping the affair had ended, having no means to spy on H abroad, being utterly incapable of seeing his lies in his eyes or body language and then finding out that the affair continued for weeks or months since the last D Day.

After the false recovery, you sit there thinking...all that time? You mean on our anniversary, when we held hands across the restaurant table and then hurried home for lovemaking...and that time when he held me when I cried and he PROMISED me that nothing had happened...and the afternoon of the morning we left the children without breakfast because he was going to Brussels and we couldn't let each other go...all that time? Every time?

I cannot describe what a false recovery does to you, even when you have been suspicious the whole time and you have told yourself not to trust him and prepare for the worst. A false recovery is indescribable and I would do all I could to stop a BS from going through one.

I Plan A'd my FWH after he moved out.

I have.

It was like living through D-day all over again, except this time, I felt like not only did FWH betray me again, but I betrayed myself...and my children.

There are too many victims in adultery to take this on your gut feelings, sm. You need to have a plan and then follow it to a "T".

I was in Plan A, even though I had kicked FWH out.

I was very confused back then (can't imagine why!) I had people on the board telling me I should not have kicked him out because it is harder to Plan A that way. I could not live with myself if I had allowed him to stay in our home after I confirmed the affair was active. But I was told that I needed him home to Plan A. So when he talked about coming home, said all the right things, and I missed him so terribly, it seemed like the right thing to do was let him come home and continue to Plan A him back into "love" with me. Right??? Then people on my thread told me I should not have let him come home because he was not going to go NC. I felt like I was d@mned no matter what I did....kicking him out was wrong, then letting him come home was wrong.

Well, I suffered immensely during that FR. I cannot in good conscience counsel any other BS to set themselves up for a FR.

I think Sugarcane's previous quote from Dr. H was the most applicable to your situation and I pray you will take his advice.

Hi SM,

I have not read your entire thread, but I have experienced a false recovery as well. I, too, was in Plan A. WH left and then came back, agreeing to NC and MC. We counseled with Steve H. WH had both of us fooled, because contact very much continued. Once that was determined, Steve immediately told me to go to Plan B. Unfortunately, that would have meant that I had to move out because WH refused to. I had nowhere to go, so I was forced to attempt to Plan A with WH being in the same home with me and continuing contact. My snooping revealed daily contact and just about killed me emotionally and spiritually. Please don't do that to yourself. Plan A is easier to do with the WS at home, but it is extremely difficult to do if there is any chance that contact continues. You have done a good Plan A from what I have read. Please follow what SexyMamaBear and SugarCane are recommending. It will save you heartache.

I will pray for you - let God guide you.

oh boy, my knee starts shaking when I see "false recovery" being discussed. We know people on this board who suffer TODAY from post traumatic stress disorder years after the affair ended because of false recoveries. There have been people on this board who were suicidal over them. So, please, please listen to these ladies and take every precaution.

A false recovery is more traumatic than the actual D-Day in my experience. The reason is because they always happen when the BS has been beaten to a pulp by weeks and months of abuse. The shock almost does them in.

I haven't read this whole thread, but please heed the warnings here. shudder.......

WW,

Is your story posted here? I should like to read it. I'm sorry you've been through this.

Sugar,

Having thought about what you said, I think you have convinced me. SM should impose tough conditions for his return.

However, I just want to clarify that I have never at any point suggested sm should take WH back home while accepting a continuing affair. Horror of horrors! I have always been clear that she should get a committment to NC and MC before.
My question was about the usefulness of imposing a whole pile of detailed clauses and conditions at this stage. Later, after a return from Plan B, yes. I had two reasons:
- they provide a lot of fine print for a wayward to wriggle out of, if they want to. And the corollary, if they are not wayward any more, they don't need the fine print.
- I'm not quite clear about where the balance of power lies right now between sm and WH. Of course, I get what your point about sm having much more power than she realises and WH having less but they don't realise this yet.

So, having weighed up things, sm - sorry for the cross-conversation - I think SugarCane is the one who's right here.

Sugarcane has expressed Dr Harley's view, and yes, she is right. The worst mistake a BS can do is take a WS back with no conditions. The conditions are basically a plan for recovery and without that, recovery is impossible.

A BS should assume the affair is active until there is ongoing proof otherwise. APs are very good at going underground while the BS invests emotionally again and is set up to be emotionally tormented by the APs.




Here's the thing. What does a "commitment" look like? Does that mean when the WS says "I promise NC and I will go to MC" that it is now safe to open your heart back up.

I say NO!

WS's lie. And a BS needs to assume they are lying as long as their lips are moving until they are PROVEN no longer wayward.

How does one prove to be a former wayward? By taking the actions to back up the words.



So a BS should continue to sign up for further emotional abuse unless they went into Plan B.

See, I just cannot agree with this. A BS CAN Plan A and still have boundaries. A BS CAN Plan A with the WS out of the home.

She does not have to say, "Come on home, baby," to be in Plan A.

I think a BETTER Plan A message is one that says, "I love you and want the man I know you can be, but I respect myself and will not live with a man who does not cherish me."

She can work Plan A while making her boundaries clear. If he bulks at her boundaries, well then, it's pretty obvious he is still wayward.

Then she needs to get out of the way and let the APs crash and burn on their own....Plan B.



If you are talking about my list of requirements that I think SC posted, there is NO fine print. I don't really understand what you are saying here. What fine print?

And if they are not wayward, they most certainly DO need the requirements so that they understand what the BS needs to feel safe again and for the FWS to see what becoming trustworthy looks like.

I don't think there is but I was remembering an incredibly frustrating discussion with WH where he debated for over an hour the difference bewteen 'possibly' and 'probably'.
He argued over the most stupid things, like was contact broken if he saw her out the window of his office, or what about if he saw her car moving but couldn't see her in it.
I got the impression that he wanted to argue every little comma so that he could deflect attention from the real point.

This was an aside, by the way, nothing to do with the point in question here. Just explaining my 'fine print' comment.

Just keep in mind that these conditions are not negotiable, though. He can take them or leave them so there won't be any debates.

SM, I think that the confusion on your thread has stemmed from people first advising you to get your WH home so you could more effectively Plan A him, and now people tell you that you should impose some conditions on his return.

I think that the conditions for return are the right way to go on this one. You see, your WH is telling you that he wants to end the affair and wants to return to a marriage with you. Well, you need to tell him what a marriage to you will be like. You have lived through a FR and I am CERTAIN you wouldn't want to live through that again. Listen to the posters on here to help you through this.

So, you should make a conditions list and give them to your WH and ask him to agree to them. If he doesn't, I would suggest a Plan B(although I think that the vets should weigh in on if you need to Plan A for a couple of weeks first).

You can't control what your WH does. You also can't worry that you are going to push your WH to OW with your actions. He has HIS choices and he could choose to do the right thing or the wrong thing. It is up to him and has NOTHING to do with what you DID or DIDN'T do.