Hitch,

Let me respond individually and see what you think. First it seems to me this are not boundaries but rather stated behavior goals on your part and frankly they are good. Now let's examine them.
Ok, I like this boundary but have you thought of how you would respond in different situations? You need to. Also remember there is a difference between disrespect and a difference of opinion. Name calling, making unwarrented and hurtful comments, etc. is disrespect. An argument may not be. See what I mean? You have to define disrespect carefully.
Not really a boundary. What are your core values about marriage, about honesty, about moral integrity, about integrity in general? What were you taught as a child about dealing with people? I think you will find if you find your moral foundation, then respecting and honoring your marriage will come naturally.

I like this but isn't this part of 2 as well?

Not a boundary, but often a good thing to try and achieve. I am of the opinion that sometimes a good rant can be healthy, but it should NOT be a mechanism for dealing with people. This is not a boundary. But an excellent thing to address.

Again not a boundary but an action. Let say your boundary is to act with integrity and you have to deal with people and yet maintain your integrity. What is a good way to do this? Why, act in a calm and controlled manner. If I offered you strategies that work best with most people this would at the top of the list AND you not be disrespecting them would you? You would in fact be treating them as you expected to be treated...with respect.

Again, not a boundary, but it is treating someone with respect to listen to them. Further, there is an old saying "we were given two ears and one mouth we should use them in that proportion. You cannot defeat a persons arguement until you have heard the whole arguement, further listening to them gives you more time to formulate a good, respectful, and effective response IF any is required. Often no respones is required if we just listen carefully.


Again not really a boundary, BUT there is a saying "Judge not lest thee be judged." I will tell you that I don't do much judging because judging also means sentencing. What I do is assess people. You can only do that if you listen to them. But, what does assessment mean if it does not mean judging. I am assessing if they listen to me. If they don't I stop talking. I assess if they are honest. If they are not, I stop dealing with them. I assess if they are dangerous. If they seem to be I avoid them or take measures to protect myself. I am not "judging" if they are good or bad, etc. I am assessing if it suits me to interact with them in someway. I will not nor cannot change people, nor punish them. I can only assess if they are crossing or likely to cross my boundaries.

My boundaries are made up of the core beliefs I have and that includes safety.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks JL I am not too good at this am I? No wonder my M was in a poor state. Also little confused as Tully mentions that I should use to specific ones, but you seem to refer to more general ones? I will have another go.

Question; I have to ask as I need to know what the right thing is to do. Our wedding anniversary tomorrow, should I acknowledge it? Also my H is talking to SH tomorrow, hopw apt on our 3rd wedding anniversary

Thank you, hitch x

Hi All,

Just sent OM NC letter, in response to his email that he sent me on Monday. Been reading through various threads and i should have done this ages ago, but been worried about H reaction, such as "I don't care" or "shame to waste a M, if you are not going to get together". NC email which I have cc'd to H goes like this;

OM

Just to confirm, having an affair with you and being unfaithful to my husband is the most despicable, selfish thing I have ever done in my life and I hate myself for having done it. I hope H will find it in his heart to forgive me and allow me to love him properly in the future. If he does, then I will do everything I can to make my marriage a good one where we care deeply for each other and where infidelity has no place.

But, regardless of his decision, I want to never hear from or speak to you again. If you do ever contact me again in any form, I will delete and ignore your messages.

Goodbye,
Hitch.

I am not sure how H will take this. I have also gone onto facebook and deactivated my account, as this was how A started outside of work.

Doesn't make any difference how H will take it. Other than letting him see the NC letter before you sent it, you did exactly the correct thing and your letter just as it should be.

As for specific with regard to the boundaries. Actually that is what I am trying to get you to do as well. But, what I am aiming for is for you to be very very specific about where your moral compass with regard to honesty, treating other people, and how you allow other people to treat you. I want you to dig down to bedrock so that your boundaries are simple, but POWERFUL. They are simple, thus EASY to remember and enforce. They are FUNDAMENTAL to who you are.

You see most people have boundary issues because their boundaries are fuzzy, or not grounded in who they are or want to be.

I will tell you that I went to a college that had an honor code and it was simple

Simple right, so if it was so simple why did incoming freshmen get days and hours of training on this "simple" honor code? Because it was not easy. Obviously the very first question asked year after year after year, was "do you really expect us to turn in a friend."

And year after year after year, the answer was, they know the code, and they would not put you in that position if they really were your friend. We are down to bedrock.

People were thrown out of school sometimes after the last final of their senior year for violating the code, AND anyone that knew about it but didn't report it was gone as well.

My point is simple: WHO ARE YOU? WHAT DO YOU STAND FOR? CAN YOU BE COUNTED ON BY YOUR FRIENDS OR EVEN STRANGERS WHEN YOU HAVE GIVEN YOUR WORD ON SOMETHING?

That is the basis of boundaries. The boundaries are the basis of how you make tough decisions or even unpopular decisions and for them to reflect you, they must reflect who you are and what you stand for. Notice in the honor code I cited, not only were you not going violate the code, you were not going to tolerate anyone that did. Are you seeing the connection to protecting your boundaries?

Boundaries are not only about what you allow other people to do to you or around you, they are about what you will and will not allow yourself to do.

So are we getting closer? If you want to read a good book on Boundaries, read a book by Clouds and Townsen (sp).

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

Hitch,

I think you did well. I am proud of you. JL is right. This is about setting a standard of behaviour for yourself that you will maintain so that you respect yourself. How other people react to that standard is out of your control. You only have control over yourself. The most important person you will ever live with is yourself and you need to make that person a good person to spend the rest of your life with.
This is the subliminal message you are sending to H as well in the 'regardless of his decision' bit.

Also he cannot fail to be affected by the 'where infidelity has no place'. In this statement you are actually saying that 'I will not tolerate infidelity in my M, whether the perpetrator is me or H'. This is a strong message, don't worry he'll get it.

IMO, I think you have a good instinct but you have allowed it to be overridden in recent times.
Your instinct knows very well when you are being mistreated by other people and, even more importantly, when you are mistreating others (hence your justified self-hatred after your A). However there is also a little voice that contradicts that instinct and justifies wrong actions (eg 'it's OK for me to have an A because my H is not meeting my needs.' 'I'll let MIL get away with that because I don't want to create waves'
Every time that battle goes on, step back and think about it. Are you allowing that voice to override your instinct? For example, if a good friend moves house and is in the midst of boxes and you drop over a dinner for her, there is no battle going on. You know you're doing a good thing. But when the battle goes on, try to understand what's going on. It's not always easy but I think you just need to trust your instinct a little bit more and know the difference between it and the selfish voice.

Just Learning - It is starting to make sense lots of sense. I have been doing lots of thinking about it today and have come up with some good ideas. I probably do have some boundaries in place, but not enough really. It is almost a moral code to live by. Ihave ordered the book, hopefully that will help too. I have an outline of what I want to cover, its just writing them.

Tully - I agree with what your saying, that I do no the difference from right or wrong, but when I had the A all that went out of the window. I am being honest here, don't want to get blasted, I know this was wrong, but I thought what the hell i deserve this, I have been denied for so long (still don't really no why morals went out of the window). Also other situations where I feel violated in some way but fear of something else (been thought as troublesome, difficult, confrontational) stops me from implementing my boundaries.

I will post my new boundaries, sorry its taken so long to get this one together, it really is quite hard.

Update on H;

I sent the NC email cc'd to my H yesterday, he has not commented, I think maybe he is taking it in.

I then got to work, and my H phoned me to say "I have a really serious problem", my heart nearly fell into my hands, all the worst things possible went through my head, so I said to him, "am I not going to like this as I am at work". He got really upset and told me he was having money troubles at work, so I asked him if he needed me to come home, he said no, but we chatted for awhile and I managed to calm him down and offer him some advice. I am pleased that he came to me, but this was a regular occurance in the M, he would in regular cycles get upset about work, he runs his own business and often finds it stressful. I have always supported him and like to be there for him.

Ok, then got home from work and H went drove down to the beach (away from his office) to phone Steve Harley. I was really nervous how things would go, when he walked in he looked a bit flush, and pulled a funny face. I asked him how it went and he said "yeah ok, not really sure what to make of it though". He didn't seem keen to talk about it too much. I did ask a few more questions, he ended the session with saying that he would look more in the MB website. He did say that Steve talked about a plan, and that he is not pro marriage he is pro happiness. I did ask him, if they talked about the OW. H said he did, and told Steve that I had told lies about the A, but he was less sure that FWW can forgive for the 2 x OW...I kept quiet. Wasn't sure what to say.

However, I think maybe I am a bit worn out doing the Plan A so full on, as feeling a bit negative about it all. H is so wrapped up in work that the M is last thing on his mind. I am feeling right now, if he didn't want to put the effort into the M before A, he is less likely to do that now.

H just came into talk to me about work again, and I was so tired I couldn't focus on what he was saying and he got really angry with me for not listening. However, I did use MB concepts and explained that I was very tired and finding it difficult to focus. Happy anniversary.

Don't expect any sympathy votes just getting it off my chest.

Hitch,

It is supposed to take time. It should be a reflection of YOU and how you see yourself. You said Ok, now here is where your boundaries come into to play. Enforcing boundaries sounds like you have to get a club and beat someone. But, often it is simply just knowing how to cope with things.

You did not "deserve" to be treated badly by YOU, but you did it by violating your own moral code. Why? My guess you did not and do not have the coping skills to handle your boundaries. What do I mean? You had many options available to you, counseling, talking with your H, information such as found on this site, even divorce. All of which would have been better than you violating yourself. You see with boundaries must come good coping skills. Want more proof? Examine what else you just said.

You are saying you don't have coping skills again and you respond by being confrontational, difficult, troublesome and then you fear the label that you yourself invite. And then you say your fear stops you from implementing your boundaries. Again, suggesting that the only way to implement your boundaries is by being difficult, troublesome and confrontational. This is not true.

Let me offer you an example from my military experience. It has been my experience that people think men in command "bark" orders to their troops who react because of fear of the commander. IN reality good commanders really don't "bark" orders. In fact orders are issued that are rarely a surprise. A good leader, trains and teaches the troops what is expected and when it is expected. A good leader keeps the troops apprissed of the current situation. A good leader knows those working for him/her know what to do and how to do it, because of communications and training. Thus, they rarely ever have to "bark" orders.

Are you a good leader? You can be, you should be. After all it is YOU that has to lead your life, and that means you MUST influence those around you and train them how to treat you and respond. It could be that money does it, or simply a request coupled with a smile or a joke. There are many ways to successfully interact with people so that the interaction is mutually satisfactory, but it can never be done from fear. And it cannot be continously done if you are violating your boundaries or allowing others to do so.

Soooooo, after you list your boundaries and we polish those up, you need to tell me what your coping skills are and how you bring them to bear in various situation. I'll give you a hint, perspective on people, life, and your situation is crucial to having good coping skills.

Thinks about it.

God Bless,

JL

Ok boundary list, heres hoping...

When someone shouts at me or gets angry, I will let them know I am not willing to continue the discussion further.

I will never act flirtatious or sexual with another man whilst I am married, and if they act that way to me remind them I am happily married and unavailable.

I will not accept physical violence and if someone hits me or someone else, then I will call the police.

During the evenings, I will give my H undivided attention and limit time on my laptop and watching tv so i can use that time to fill my H EN,s.

Once I lose control with something my H has done to upset me, I will go for a walk and calm down, then listen to his full story before reacting.

If anyone (MIL/friend) makes a hurtful, rude or uncalled for comment about me or anyone I know, I will say in a jokey voice "are you always this nice about other people or is it just me who is the lucky one?"

If MIl makes a disrespectful comment to someone else about me, I will let her know that I heard, and respond as I see fit.

Even when I am feeling, tired, down, emotional or neglected I will always implement my personal boundaries.

I will not have friendships with other men, unless my H approves.

From this day forwards, I will commit myself 100% to rebuilding my M, to make it safe, loving, caring and faithful. Unless my H is willing to do the same, I will move on.

I will act my natural self in all situations and not put on an act to please anyone.

If people disrespect me by ignoring me, I will do the same back and limit the time I spend with them.

Hitch,

I don't think you have it yet, but your getting there. I am slammed tonight and tomorrow, but I will get back to you. You are still focusing on reactions, rather than boundaries.

I will take one of them on now. You said You don't know if ignoring you is a sign of disrespect. It could be a sign of someone very busy or up to their "you know what" in alligators.

My point is your boundaries should reflect YOUR moral code and the responses should be proportionate to the attack. BUT, you need to change perspectives a bit. Someones bad behavior often is sufficient to show everyone else what they are about without you doing anything but simply walking away. Some other time, you might simply look at them and say "your behavior is poor and I am not interested in it." And then walk away. Other times "I'm calling the cops." Do you see what I mean?

Start with the basics, then plan responses for specific things. Just remember that no one runs their lives like you would run it for them. And frankly they could not run your life like you would run it.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

JL, it sounds like she is getting EPs confused with boundaries (although boundaries do come into play in EP).

Hitch, this is tough stuff to get but man does it change your life once you do get it.

Maybe this will help.

Boundary: A fence around a yard is a type of boundary. If someone crosses that fence, I will...

A personal boundary: I will not allow people to curse at me. If they do, I will.... You don't necessarily have to TELL someone what you will do-- this is something that YOU know that YOU will do. It's YOUR boundary.

EP (extraordinary precautions/protection): I will not discuss my marriage or personal life with a member of the opposite sex. (You are taking a precaution to protect your marriage by keeping that kind of door closed.)

Thanks PM, I must admit I am really struggling with this, and it must be doing something as its sending me round the bend!! Determined to stick with it though. Why am i finding it so hard?

I am going to focus on marriage boundaries as that is what we seem to be doing here.

I am really starting to come to the end of tether with H. Must be tired or something but feeling emotionally drained.

Came home tonight and straight away when I came in the door he was on about work, which is OK as I know its all about him at the moment, but I am am just having a rant as I am getting nothing back and I mean zero. He phoned up crying yesterday about work, then today he is happy again, so what does he do make arrangements with friends to go out, what does FWW do, support him through the whole process. (This is very typical of pre A).

Anyway, H said that he might be staying out tomorrow night at a friends house, and I raised an eyebrow at him. I made a comment like 'oh yeah' and he said 'if you had it your way I would have no friends, cause you think meeting friends means I am meeting with a girl and having sex with everyone'. Didn't bother responding. Feel a bit like a puppet at the moment, this boundary thing has thrown me and feel like I have lost a sense of self, like I don't know how to handle or deal with anything. Everything I do is incorrect.

Having a session with Steve tomorrow, but feel at wits end with H, either you want to work on this m or you don't. Almost like a Plan B. But I am not going to do anything until I have spoken to Steve tomorrow.

Hitch,

PrincessMeg's is stating it better than I.

Let' try something that I know you can do.

Tell me in your words the attributes of a really good person.

Tell me in your words how a really good person would treat people.

Tell me in your words, the woman you are and want to be. I am talking about attributes, things you are proud of and would be proud of. OK?

I'm asking this because who you, who you want to be, and who you admire are the basis of your boundaries. You want to treat people in a way that you would like to be treated. You want to treat yourself in that way as well. Once you see this, you will see what your boundaries are by what you expect from yourself around other people and what you expect from them.

Once you have that, the ways you protect your boundaries becomse situational, but your boundaries are not.

Hope this helps.

JL

Thanks guys - I have done some more brain damaging thinking on this, I have also got the Cloud and Townsend book so that has given me some thought.

So I have decided just to start this process with one boundary and if i get that right I can build from there..how does that sound?

Boundary A

I will not tolerate disrespect, such as name calling, physical violence, or hurtful comments

Situations (where I use Boundary A)

If other people shout at me or verbally abuse me, I will choose not to be their presence or continue the discussion
If someone uses physical violence and hits me, I will call the police and put in a restraining order.
If someone makes a disrespectful comment about my family and I, I will defend them in an appropriate way.

So is this right? If so then I can start to look at my other boundaries..

Hi JL

Thanks for your patience on this.

To me a good person, or the kind of person I want to be is

Kind, caring and affectionate
Honest, loyal and open
Strong and assertive
Takes responsibility for own actions but does not feel guilt for others
Forgiving and patient
Undemanding and considerate
Protective of those close to them
fulfills and enjoys the commitment to their spouse

Hitch,

I like this idea of working on one. Let's look at and see if what I say agrees with what you are going to read in Clouds and Townson(sp). You said
My personal take on this is that if this is your boundary it should start with:

"I will NOT disrespect people. I will not name call, resort to physical violence or hurtful comments."

Why do I say this? The most powerful boundaries are those that WE would not cross. If we won't do these things, then why would we allow someone else to do them? This way why I was asking about your core beliefs and what you think makes a good person.

So another way to state this boundary and a more positive way is to have said:

"I will treat people with respect at all times."

Now you have stated what you will do and it naturally follows what you expect other people to do. Are you seeing where I am coming from? I would like your boundaries to be positive and a postive reflection of who you are and the qualities you admire in yourself and people you like.

Next comes the realization that you must protect your boundaries and often people don't realize this. They may try to always treat people with respect but they don't realize that sometimes people don't have the same personal boundary, so you must TEACH them how to treat you, hence you must proactively protect your boundaries. Notice I said TEACH? Boundary protection in my mind is often a teaching opportunity, but sometimes it must become confrontational as you have listed in your situations list.





So let's look at your affair. People have told you that you failed to protect your boundaries. You allowed yourself to take an action that violated YOUR boundaries. So when folks talk about boundaries, they are talking about your core beliefs and first and foremost how you protect your boundaries from your own actions in life. I think it is by making the boundaries your core beliefs, by actually articulating them as you are working on doing now. And then a natural extension is how do you protect your boundaries from others once you understand them, and can defend them from personal temptation.

So if you had treated youself in a manner that you were respectful to yourself and your core beliefs would you have had the affair? I think not.

Hopefully this will help.

God Bless,

JL

Hi Hitch,

Back with more. You said
Not a problem, I like to see people think and learn about themselves.

I think we have a mix of things here. As PrincessMeg's said, you are mixing EP and boundaries.

Let's take something Biblical for a moment. Would say the 10 Commandments would be a good set of boundaries? Do they encompass what you have said?

I like what you said because you have described a person that acts with "GRACE" toward other people. I love that word in case you are wondering. But, your actions also reflect core beliefs don't they? Honesty, loyality, respect, empathy (caring, kind, affection, undemanding, considerate) are you seeing the pattern here.

If you treat people with respect, you would do many of the things you listed.

If you decided that you would enjoy people and be a person they would enjoy being around you would act very much like you have listed right?

If you were a person of integrity and, a dependable person you would act like you have listed right?

If you were a compassionate person, you would act as you have listed right?

If you honored yourself by respecting these traits you would treat yourself in the manner you listed wouldn't you?

There is nothing wrong with being demanding if you do the same for yourself AND you do it with "grace".

Are you seeing a pattern here? Is what I just said in the previous post starting to make sense?

I hope I am helping some.

God Bless,

JL

Spoke to steve barley today after session with my husband. Steve said that my H was more troubled by the lack of connection and time spent together before the A! How is it possible that 2 people can live together and not communicate. Not doing stuff together! That's because you were either working or playing golf!

Feeling very anti about working in M right now. Steve told me H is lost right now, but he seems open to researching into MB. That it is going to be down to me to do all the work.

Nearly midnight and H still out drinking, yup he is lost alright, lost in the pub and communicating with OW. Starting to feel like I am wasting time and money. Can a M really be saved on your own?

I've been following this thread and doing the boundary exercise along with Hitch the last few days -- Hitch, hope you don't mind me popping in -- our situations have some similarities, although your H is acting out in a way more painful way than mine. I still haven't gotten up the nerve to ask my BH to talk to SteveH -- kudos to you for that!

Values/boundaries:

One of my core values is kindness. I act on that core value by treating people with respect. A boundary violation comes into play when either (1) I treat someone with disrespect, or (2) I allow someone to treat me with disrespect.

???

In either situation (1) or (2), I am not enforcing my boundary? And unenforced boundaries become guidelines and then disappear altogether?

This is REALLY helping me and I want to make sure I am following the train of thought. I'm pretty clear on core values but it appears am frighteningly short of boundaries which makes a lot of what I do and say reflexive and ad hoc.

Hitch, my mother is to my sisters-in-law as your MIL is to you. You cannot win. She is sick and toxic. Ignore, ignore, ignore. Would you willingly wade through a vat of cancer causing chemicals? No. Treat her the same way.

If there is a family member who "gets" her, enlist them to help when she says mean things to a TEN YEAR OLD. My siblings and I close ranks between my mother and our children. If you don't have someone to back you up, never try to do it on your own. Hopefully, some day the back up person will be your H. My brother, who is a truly fine human being, allowed my mother to treat his wife horribly for years until my mother finally crossed a line. My brother finally "got" it.

Thanks SW, it is quite tough but your explanation is good. I think I am finding it mentally difficult as everything going on at home. However I am determined to stick with it. H came home last night, he hasn't stayed out the night for over a week now. This is a good sign. However, I am totally at my limits. Woke up this morning and he tells me his plans for the day, including taking MIL to pick up some chairs, golf, more work ect... Do you know what I am the person he comes to when things turn bad, he's upset and he has business issues but I get nothing back. Very tired of this situation.

Steve has asked me to fill out LB and EN questionairre. He then wants to talk to H next week to do the same. I am not feeling hopeful at all right now and to be honest want to tell H to take a running jump.