I have a similar question regarding how to get started. My wife and I have been married 7 years and have two small children. She's indicated that this marriage is over having expressed that she sees little to no hope in fixing it, that while she loves me she is not in love with me, that this probably should've ended long ago. She feels that she's too passive and has changed in ways she doesn't like. That should she decide to work on it that she would be, again, conceding/giving in.

We've gotten into couples counseling and have a third appt coming up on Monday. The counselor was not sure what O meant when I asked if she was a promarriage counselor.

My wife leaves for our home state for the month of August on Wed the 4th a long-planned trip.

I don't know how to even bring up the subject of rebuilding our marriage. She's not comfortable talking to me and she'll be leaving in a few days. For the past two weeks I've just tried being the best I could be. But how do bring up the LB questionnaires and EN questionnaire? How do I start given her reluctance to want to work on the marriage?

TIA!

JMak - it's best to start your own thread.

The best way is to say "Hon, I know we're having troubles. I have found a program that I think could really help us. Would you mind going over some of it with me?"

Honesty and thoughtful requests can go a long way.



THIs does not leave me feeling warm and fuzzy about your counselor.

JMak, what if you could let your wife know that marriage builders will require her to absolutely NOT accept any behaviour of yours that makes her unhappy? That one of the very first requirements is that she speaks up, and tells you every single time you do something she doesn't like. Its not giving in, it really isn't. It requires learning a lot of strength and becoming more in control of yourself and your relationship than you can imagine.

My apologies if I've broken protocol. Just saw a similarity in questions, so I thought I'd tag in here...

It's ok - you won't know the forum eticuitte when you first show up. Typically it is best to start your own thread with your own story, and stick to it for any advice you need. This keeps your story in one place for those seeking to advise you, and keeps from derailing other's threads and the advice they need.

It's not a STRICT rule, just the general culture.

And I agree with Rosy's advice- if you can sell your wife on MB, focus on the idea that the goal is for HER to be happy and passionately in love. It's not about sacrificing. In fact, if done correctly, she won't ever have to sacrifice again.

Jmak, the first order of business will be to quietly snoop to see if she is having an affair. Your wife is using the CLASSIC verbiage of someone who is in an affair. Saying she loves you but is not in love usually means she has a new point of comparison. Otherwise, how would she know?

Secondly, the solution to a bad marriage is to work to turn it around, not to end the marriage. Yet that wasn't her suggestion, which is odd.

My strong suspicion is that she is having an affair, so I would rule this out first. Put a keylogger on her computer, a voice activated recorder in her car, tap your phone; hire a PI if you can. Whatever you do, DON'T ASK HER. That will get you nowhere, but it will tip your hand and send her further underground if its true.

This has to be ruled out before we can help you.

Well, even more lost now. No, she is not having an affair, not a physical one. She has a man in her past that she got pregnant with and terminated the pregnancy. He's floated in and out of her life for years. This past April we had a particularly bad night. 1st bday for our youngest, everything great all day until that night when I couldn't control my temper/anger as he was waking and crying most of the night. Then wife and I started arguing, I packed a bag, and left only to return. But I didn't calm down. Each time he cried out and I hit the headboard on our bed. That cinched it for my wife. Couple weeks later after we talked and talked she said shed give it one more shot, but that she was only 90pct there, that she couldn't put herself out there again and get hurt.

During those few weeks this man and her texted and fb'd a lot, near daily she later told me. Through May and June that decreased substantially. I did see some msgs where there talk from him about their past sex life and she did say to him that he was a fantasy for her. She later told me that the fantasy was the ease and comfort she remebered with him and how that differed from our struggles. I never asked her to stop and hoped she would, she promised to but continued the communication.

It ultimately ended up with her drafting a text to him with a racy pic attached that decided not to send. But it was left in drafts and I found it. I confronted her and she initially lied but came clean. She explained he texted to say happy bday and asked how old she was. She told him her age and then said she looked great. Then was going to send a racy pic she had just taken for and texted me. She explained she didn't send it cuz she realized she was 100pct committed to me, that she was with me mind, heart, body. I believed her. She said shed end the communication.

A few days later he texts her about doing something the next day. She fb's him the next morning with a wish that it went well and a remark about how he was a weakness for her. She didn't think the msg went through and sent three more just like it with the last being a f-it, just text me msg. I found those that evening and it led to a weekend of non-stop talking and arguing about it....mainly me telling her that she must be doing because I'm such a loser. Thaty extended to the following Monday when I deleted all my fb friends except her and then berated myself the whole day culminating with Great Ill be 36 and single this year.

She texted that afternoon to tell me were in the hile financially and she would selling of the infant things we no loonger used. I found out later she sold a bracelet, earringsn and her wedding band.

She told me that night that it was over. The next night I leaned on her as a friend cuz I had the worst day at work ever. We talked for a while about it and then some other things. She then said that she loved having these kinds of conversations. She followed on with that she still loved me, still loved the good things about me, and that she would miss seeing me improve into the person she always wanted me to be.

Two days later she saw an atty to, in her words, find out the peocess in our state. She didn't retain him, and has not as of yet completed any of the paperwork for him.

We went to counseling the next week and she seemed ambivalent about ending the marriage. She did seem to say she would pursue the counseling as the kids were worth the shot. That was clarified last week at counseling when she said that the counseling was for the kids only. That's when she also explained that she loved me but not in love with me and she felt little to no hope for the marriage.

Then we had a rough text session on Friday afternoon. I had texted her in the morning to see if she and the kids were out and about and asked how she was doing. Three hrs later she sends a three word reply and follows that up with do you really want to know how I am?????? I replied yes because I care and am being thoughtful, she replied don't. I asked her what happened that day cuz I could tell she was edgy...

She replied I feel the same as I did in 'session' last wk. I don't want to be married to you. I don't believe what you're telling me. My "love deposit drawer" is out of order. If I stay it will be only for the boys and that leaves the door open for a lot of 'not so good stuff'. I had shared with her the night before the love bank and love busters concepts. She further said you never seem to hear me when I say I don't want this relationship...not in the past and not now...what will it take to make you understand.

I replied I don't want this kind of marriage, either. I want a different marriage. That's why I started therapy. That's why, I think, you stayed all this time. We both wanted something different. We both hoped it could change. We didn't have a plan. We didn't know what each other wanted or needed.

She replied We've waited too long. I've checked out.

I said And we both kept doing things that led to losing our love for one another. We have been in love. Together and in love. It's never too long. It's never too late. The love is there. You have love for me. I have love for you.

She replied No I don't, stop!


We talked later that night after discussing some tough money issues. Basically boiled down to that she doesn't think she cab in love me and is not willing to work on it. She said she had thought about the homework from the counselor which was think about what separation would look like.

Our relationship has been dominated by me and my angry outbursts, remorse, and then promising to change. As well, she has said a lot lately that she has lost herself in this marriage, having foregone friends, activities, doing things that she believes she would have done.

I love this woman. She thinks she's weak and that shed be conceding or giving in yet againg if she were to stay with me to work on it...

Jmak - I'm sorry this is the case. Your wife is having an EA or at minimum, highly inappropriate conduct with another man. You will NOT be able to repair your marriage as long as she has ANY contact with this man - facebook, email, text messages - anything.

She is not in love with you and doesn't think she ever will be because she has a new point of comparison: this other man she has, admittedly built a fantasy about.

I am very sorry this is the case.

You can STILL fix this marriage, but it will be difficult. Understand that YOU played a large part in the erosion of your marriage, but her behavior is NOT your fault. SHE is the one who decided to open the door to someone else. That is 100% on her.

You should contact a moderator (click the notify button) and request they move this thread to the Surviving an Affair forum. You will get a lot of help there.

Your first step is to discover the extent and nature of this affair. This involves investigation of her actions. Get a keylogger on her computer. Check into her emails. Get phone records. Investigate the Other Man. Is he married? Does he have children? Where does he live?

I'm sorry this is happening, but you CAN do a lot to help your situation. The people here can guide you.

Well, until you can get your emotions under control you are not a safe person. When was the last time you had an angry outburst?

Welcome to Marriage Builders.

Are you familiar with the Harley LOVE BANK concept?
When love deposits are made ... The LOVE LEVEL rises.

Love banks are shrunk due to LOVE BUSTERS.


You've almost cinched it for me ....

Apparently, you've been an incredibly crappy husband and father.
Sorry, the truth is spoken here.

Your 1 year old BABY cries, and you hit the headboard ???

Is there something else going on here?
Do you drink or drug?
Have you ever struck your wife or your child?

What right-minded wife/mother would remain IN LOVE with a man who does this?

Your first order of business is to FIX THIS in yourself.
You are not fit to be around your wife and child.
You are scary.

Apologize.
But, that is not even close to enough.

Take the initiative to get anger management therapy.
Tell your wife you cannot stand to be this angry man one more day.

Actions are the only way to earn her trust, and make love bank deposits.

If you fail to follow through, your wife would be right to leave you.

This does not condone her affair.
There is no excuse for her affair.
But, your wife sounds like a weak person who married a bully, and weak women usually affair-out of an abusive marriage. Because they are so weak.

GET HELP for your anger.
Or, prepare to be miserable for a lifetime.


Hugs to you.... And a swift a.r.s.e-kick too

Quote:



This past April we had a particularly bad night. 1st bday for our youngest, everything great all day until that night when I couldn't control my temper/anger as he was waking and crying most of the night. Then wife and I started arguing, I packed a bag, and left only to return. But I didn't calm down. Each time he cried out and I hit the headboard on our bed. That cinched it for my wife.


ITA with Pepperband.

How could you be angry when a BABY cries? Did it ever occur to you that babies cannot speak to you and this is their way of communicating? That there is something wrong?

You are incredibly selfish, and if I were your W I would be terrified that you would abuse the children.

My exh would spank our one year old son when he pulled off his diaper because he was allergic and would get a terrible rash. Not my baby's fault, but an abusive father.

Your W is looking elsewhere because she has an abusive husband and that would be you.

You need to get some help, and fast, because you are an abuser.

My exh continued to abuse my oldest son, even after divorced, and my son turned into an abuser himself. My son is now serving 12 years in prison for abuse of 2 women.

I was abused too. I will never forgive myself for not protecting my children from my exh.

Is this what you want for your son?

Maybe your wife going elsewhere for her EN's is wrong, but that is not the issue for me at this time.

You don't deserve your wife or children at this time. Get some help and take some parenting classes so you can understand the NORMAL stages children go through at different ages.

If my H was hitting the headboard every time my son cried out I would be terrified.

Get the help you need as an abuser first.



Love in Christ,
Miss M

Thanks for the honest responses. Shortly after the April incident I started counseling. I've seen a therapist now for six sessions. As my wife would readily agree the changes were immediate and dramatic. I am improving with a single AO since - the one when I found more FB msgs to the OM. I own my behavior and recognize how destructive it has been to wife and our marriage.

It's heartbreaking that I have driven her away, caused to change as a person, caused her to believe I wasn't safe to leave with the children. This isn't remorse talking. It's accepting that the behavior was wrong, identifying the sources of the behavior, and dealing with those sources.

I am reforming myself - my wife has seen it, she believes now that am safe with the children. The counseling has led to becoming a better person, better husband, and better father.

Jmak, I would click on the link in Pepperbands signature "the carrot and the stick" and follow that to the letter. GEt the books Lovebusters and Surviving an Affair, both of which will bring you up to speed.

And most importantly, I would slap a keylogger on your wifes computer and start quietly sleuthing to see if there is an affair here. What you have described above is an EMOTIONAL AFFAIR which is just as deadly as a physical affair, if not more. Don't ask her, just find out who the affair is with and what they are saying. Then come back and here and we will help you with next steps.

Well, I saw the FB msg she sent to the OM indicating that she was making some dramatic changes in her life and that she could no longer communicate with him. This past Friday night she told me she sen him that (she didn't know I knew). She further admitted that she had started several msgs to him but never sent them. I believe her.

The thing is now that she is fb'g an ex-fiance who lives across the country. I've seen most of the msgs and it seems benign, well, except for she is basically telling him why she's through with me. Curious msgs though about hwr hiding the pic of the OM and then he seemed to congratulate her for hiding some things....not sure if the pic or not. And then he asked her if she thought the long-term thing would work out and it wasn't clear what that was. I'm going to ask her to read the fb msgs tonight and explain that I can't work on her and I if I can't trust her. I really am not threatened by this ex-fiance and my wife has told me that after thinking about it that there's nothing there for this ex-fiance. I do believe her. No, don't think I am na�ve here. I am not deluding myself.

It doesn't matter if there is anything for him right now. However, if she doesn't maintain proper boundaries with men while married either he or someone else will be the next OM. I'm sure she didn't go into OM#1 thinking she would commit adultery with him, but she did. She needs to put extraordinary precautions from this happening again, and that means not communicating with ex-lovers and sharing a facebook page. Facebook is the hook-up spot for married people.

What makes the Love Bank model so good at describing the way romantic feelings work is because a bank account is the perfect analogy for the effect over time of having ENs met. If I put my check into the bank every Friday and never write a check or take anything out of the account, in a very short time I can have a huge balance.

But even if I only make a small deposit into something such as a retirement account, while the balance doesn't grow as rapidly, it grows none the less. And if I keep making deposits week after week, month after month and year after year, I can build a pretty substantial sum of money that I can even live on till the end of my life without having to even keep putting anything in.

When there is a person that we see consistently but only periodically and that person meets some ENs for us and we have no day to day strife and stress when with them because we don't see them every day or when we are having a melt down over work or we don't have to deal with kids that we both share or the house doesn't need fixing when with them because they don't OWN the house we live in, that person's balance grows slowly but steadily and just as surely as if we actively solicited deposits from them.

And here's the problem, JMAK, It starts as our just "liking" that person. The fact that it doesn't go any farther for so long lulls everyone into a false sense of "just friends" and nothing there as far as romantic feelings. In the mean time, the piggy bank is still getting filled, one tiny penny at a time and a nickel here and a dime there...

One day, the piggy bank is so full it can't hold the change any more and it starts to spill out and you realize, OMG, this person makes me feel so good when we are together...

I have this plastic jug in our bedroom. When I have change in my pocket I drop it in the jug when I get undressed for bed at night. Usually it's like 25 or 30 cents, sometimes 75 but seldom more than a dollar because if I have that much change left at the end of the day, I probably did too much spending that day anyway. But day after day I drop in 5, 10, 45, 85 cents, whatever is left over at the end of the day. Over time that jug starts to fill up with change. Once per year, I tip the jug over and take the change in to be counted and turned into bills. Typically there is enough in the jug to pay for a weekend away for my wife and I. We sometimes get a three day weekend out of it complete with motel stay, food and gas money.

Now if I left that jug alone and never took any money out of it, it might fill completely and since it is a rather large jug I might have a few thousand dollars in it (and need a fork lift to move the jug) but as it stands, over a period of about a year, we get a few hundred bucks from almost no effort at saving and hardly even notice that a few cents at a time are going into the jug.

My point is, JMAK, if your wife continues seeing the same guy over and over again, with nothing taking place that makes her mad at him and causes her to dislike anything he does, before too many meetings she comes to feel like he is a "friend" and if that trend continues, he ends up making enough deposits into an account in her Love Bank that one day the level will be sufficient that she will find him attractive and if continued she will find him her "soul mate" and your marriage will be toast...

This is HOW affairs happen, JMAK.It isn't a "falling" process but a "sliding" process that results in being in love with someone. Since the slope is so gradual at first we don't see it as a problem and once we recognize the grade we are already sliding headlong into the abyss, but even more destructively than a fall into a dark place for the person sliding along, the sensation becomes a thrill ride that they want to continue and the fall becomes exponential rapidly.

When the kids were little, or more likely teenagers and living at home, that jug never had more than a few dollars in it because someone was always taking things out for lunch, a new comic book, school supplies, fast food...It was a put and take problem like day to day life.

Your solution, JMAK, is to learn how to put more into your jug than gets taken out on a routine basis. At the same time you need to find a way to ensure that nobody else has any jugs lurking about in your wife's bedroom.

Something we always seem to miss when we first start down this road is that once we identify a problem, we have to address THAT problem. What we usually do is try to come at the problem in a way that avoids identifying the problem so we don't stir up too much trouble. Address it head on, JMAK. Put more in than you are taking out and try to make it more difficult for anyone else to hide their own jug in the corner of your marriage. Once you identify those foreign jugs, tell her to get rid of them, without emptying your own jug.

Mark

Well, we had quite the discussion last night. I asked her about the msging with the ex-fiance and she showed me all of the msgs. Lot of it talking about her and I, what he remembers about her (a fighter, a strong person). We talked about her lack of feeling for him and how this is different from the OM she was msging on FB with - that was sexual temptation. She explained that she gave up the OM so it would not cloud her judgment, so she recognized that she needed it to stop.

I did get into her a bit about how much it hurt me that she was carrying on with the OM. That we'd likely not be in the specific spot we were in had she been open with the communication with him rather than lie and hide it.

I did ask her to consider leaving the door open to possibly finding a way to work on this, an open mind about our relationship chnaging in positive and loving ways. She started crying, said she feels I am guilting her into something. She sees no hope, she used the word hopeless. She doesn't think she can get over, forgive, etc. all that has happened between us. I don't blame her. I told her I would just be the besty person, father, partner I could be. I told her I recognized that I was the taker in this relationship and that I have tapped her out.

Interestingly she did ask what if the roles were reversed. I said she wouldn't believe the answer and asked if it mattered. She said yes it does. I told her I'd see the her as a willing partner who is ready to work on it. I used her sister as an example of when her husband left unexpectedly she sought marriage counseling despite how crappy he had treated her. But she found he was unwilling to even try.

In the end here, it appears that she cannot and does not want to be with me because of the way I have treated her. All the good stuff between us is surrounded and overshadowed by the bad stuff.

She did say she felt like she was between a rock and a hard place - she doesn't want to share custody, doesn't want step families (we both have em and they sucked for us) and that if she were to stay that it would be for the kids only.

She further explained that she wanted a chance with someone that loved her, respected her.

[censored], this sucks. I'm really down, sad, ashamed. I wisj I could somehow comfort my wife knowing how much she hurts but she won't let me touch her at all now...

All that crap is just justification for her affair.

Tell her if she's going to stay for the kids sake, she might as well work on the marriage to make it more tolerable. If you can get over her having a 2 year affair, then she can get over the way you acted for a while. If you were so bad, then why didn't she leave you? Why did she choose to have children with you? She's just blameshifting. If she doesn't want a split family, then she needs to work on the relationship with you. You need to do it together. Any relationship is hard work, so it would be best if she figured that out now and worked on the relationship with the father of her children.

You need to start putting your foot down and taking control in this relationship. Don't be afraid to lose her. Drag her kicking and screaming into counseling if you have to, but be CALM and FIRM and lead the way.

Talk to Steve and try to get her to do the same...

What would be the best case for her? Wouldn't that be to be in a loving, caring and happy marriage with the father of her children? There is a way to accomplish that very thing and that way is to learn to apply MB concepts and methods to the relationship.

MB would help you eliminate those things that hurt her and it would help her to eliminate things that she does that hurt you. It would allow each of you to identify and understand what the other needs and learn to meet those needs for each other. It would rebuild the love that was lost and would bring that love to new and more passionate levels by getting rid of the things that destroy feelings of love while maximizing those things that make love grow.

But it is a holistic approach to the relationship in that it doesn't seek to resolve single issues to the exclusion of other things that might be lacking. It allows you to approach marriage as if making each other happy in the relationship were the most important thing and while disagreements and conflicts are sure to arise, the overall goal will be to ensure that you love each other more day by day rather than either one of you gaining at the expense of the other.

It can eliminate sacrifice which leads to resentment and helps make certain that whatever either of you do it is for the good of the other and not just for your own selfish desires that come from missing out on something that you need to be happy.

It will allow each you to become the favorite recreational partner of the other and teach you to spend time together enjoying your life together instead of going off to relax by yourself or putting yourself in a place where you become vulnerable to having your needs met by an outsider.

THAT is what Marriage Builders can do for a marriage...

It can give you an AMAZING marriage and a relationship that can withstand the stresses and difficulties of work, raising children, dealing with family and fixing what gets broken as a matter of life happening from day to day...

It helps you to become ONE...

It gives you the ability to share all aspects of your life with each other and develop true intimacy.

It shows you how to provide for each other care, protection, time and honesty...

And it's cheaper than divorce, both financially and emotionally, and will cause much less pain in the lives of your children.

Just a few of the possible reasons to try Marriage Builders before deciding that it can't be fixed.

Mark

Thanks for the responses. You know I get what both of you saying...the issue I think is how to get her interested in having me fill her love bank, talk to Steve, or otherwise have her willing to do this. I know I can't convince her to do this and I don't want to. She's not at all interested in working on this marriage. She told me last night that she can't get over what's happened and still be with me. Seems inappropriate then to try to persuade her to talk to Steve, fill out questionnaires, etc.

Saw my own counselor today and after sharing with her what my wife has said suggested that my wife has been planning this, has gone through some of the emotional stages, and I'm just being brought on board now, hence, I'm willing to work and my wife is not - at least not now. She suggested that I just keep working on myself, be the best I could be because I have to do that anyway.

My wife and children tomorrow for a month back to our home state. Gonna be difficult and I pray she misses me and pray that opens the door to possibly working on repairing this marriage.