You at least spoke to her, right?

You can't go from passing greeting to "Will you have dinner with me" with most women. A little flirting and information gathering is in order and acceptable.

And, here's the thing.... No one is ever completely baggage free. We have scars. It's okay.

The other thing I found when I started dating after my divorce is that some issues can not be addressed until you are in a relationship. Working through certain triggers seems to only happen when you are in a relationship.If you face these triggers from a position of strength you can take a breather and analyze whether it is the past or the present your body reacted to. You can respond approriately rather than inflicting the problems of the past on the present.

So by all means take your time, just don't be looking for perfection in yourself before you take the leap.

I've got a question about this "dating" thing.

You all seem to talk about it from the standpoint of looking for another serious relationship.

I may be ready to start interacting with the opposite sex fairly soon, but it's only going to be casual for the forseeable future. Is that OK, as long as I am up front from the beginning?

I totally think it's okay. After all, even if you were looking for a serious relationship, you have to start off slowly.

Just be honest, AND be cautious. Sometimes women will say they are okay with casual dating even though they are in search of a serious committment.

I personally cannot have more kids. So, when I've used online dating, I elminate anyone who says they want kids. It's not fair to the man to waste his time.

Yeah, uh, let's back up a step. Since Schtoop and I are now living in parallel universes, I have to chime in.

I've been advised against dating at this juncture (MUCH to my chagrin). But, now that I'm over my eagerness I think I understand a few of the points about why even "casual" dating described above might not be such a good idea. See if I have this right:

*Having just been through a very traumatic experience (being on the receiving end of betrayal), your defenses are understandably low. You are vulnerable. The tendency might be to be blind to any flaws and latch on; essentially tricking yourself into thinking something crazy like you just met your soulmate.

*I believe you come into the situation (a casual dinner/coffee "date"), with a definite perspective (and expectation) of how two opposite-sex people act and react to each other; the model is that of husband and wife. I feel like it probably takes a while for that to get out of your system. Dating with that picture in your head (& heart) could easily lead to a misrepresentation of what you're trying to accomplish (or should be trying to accomplish), which is essentially nothing except for some interesting conversation perhaps.

*For me, I really see the importance of keeping my kids at the top of my list right now. Since I have a new appreciation for total honesty (imagine that...), I would never be able to shade the truth about what I was doing if they asked (of course without sharing personal details). I believe my daughter would be crushed if she thought there was someone more important than her right now. This is all too new to them and they're emotional safety is nothing I'm ready to mess around with, even with the most mundane of intentions. ---I have to thank Vibrissa for pointing their vulnerability out to me (schtoop - read her posts on about pg 11/12 of my D thread).

*I don't even want to get into the concept of still being officially married. That seems to be a point not worth debating. For me it means more than I thought it would. I'm lucky I only have to wait 50 more days and 3 hours.

*I really liked one poster (sorry, can't remember who): something to the effect that once you establish yourself as your true self (which takes some time of being ALONE), you attract a whole different type of woman. I NEVER did that before, and I wound up marrying...well, let's just say the wrong girl.

Might not be what you wanna hear, schtoop. But I am sincerely grateful (at least today) for the folks that jumped in and pulled me back from dating too early. I really long for that high you get from all the good things a woman brings to the table, but I have to expect it will be just as sweet, if not moreso, when it's really the right time.

~opt

Let me clarify. I thought the question was whether or not casual dating was okay as opposed to looking for a relationship, not whether it was okay for Schoop personally.

I think people should have been living on their own for close to a year or so before dating. I think that time alone is more important to healthy dating than even a divorce degree because then you know who you are. That's important.

And I'd like to point out that you need to be ready to handle rejection... even when casually dating. Some people aren't going to want to go out with you. Some will go out once and then say no thanks.

But if everything is now in place, sure, date casually, not seriously if that's waht you want.

Don't worry, Opt, I read all the advice you were given and it makes sense.

And, I am no where near ready to date again right now, just trying to visualize what my single life will look like going forward.

Not a good day yesterday.

I had to drive 3 hours for a meeting in another town and then 3 hours back after it was done. When I got home the kids were cranky, I was cranky, and the WW was withdrawn as usual. I was really restless and felt anxious for some reason.

Part of it is the stress of everything coming together now. I know things move pretty quickly in my state, but it's been two months since we decided to divorce and I've spent a ton of time and energy assembling financial information, documenting everything I can think of showing me as a good parent (and her shortcomings as well), planning the division of property, planning my future finances.

Now things are quickly coming to a crescendo. This morning the WW and I meet with a counselor she picked out for the boys to see once we tell them of our split. In theory it is probably a good idea for them to have someone to help them through this, but I am wary that she set it up. Then Friday I meet with my lawyer to plan our mediation strategy, followed by the actual mediation on Monday.

My WW seems to think everything will be settled at mediation, but I am only cautiously optimistic. It is still a sobering thought that our whole world and lifestyle is going to change in the matter of just a few days, maybe that stress has me a little on edge. And, the kids are probably feeling it, too.

I'm sure it's needed to finally get things out in the open for them, but it is also the most painful thing I'm ever going to have to do.

I feel that I am stronger than ever and have a good plan for moving my life forward, but I guess bad days are still going to rear themselves every now and then. Been working and making some strides detaching from WW, but I know its a process, not a switch I can just turn on or off.

Ah, ha! Now, I get the picture.

My best friend made a great recommendation to me years ago. She said, don't start dating, but go where there are men. Go to the gym. Talk to men. Practice your social skills.

It was excellent advice, and I took it.

so, while I recommend you don't date until you've been alone for a year, that doesn't mean you can't talk to or smile at nice women.

The one thing you really need to avoid is the rebound. Rebound relationships feel really good because suddenly emtoinal needs are being met in ways they haven't been in a long time. But, they often have little to do with reality. Just read some of the stories over on the After Divorce board.

Also, the desire to date will ebb and flow. That's normal.

Attaboy. Sorry if I took you too literal. Well, I had fun writing my expose on not dating. Now I just hope I can follow my own advice, lol. Gg's right though, with this schedule the next Little Miss Wonderful is not going to find herself on the top of the priority list anytime soon no matter how hard I try; casual dating with full disclosure and honesty and constantly feathering the brakes is clearly the place to start.


See now I like this (genders reversed of course). Any ideas? A dad can only take their 9 yo daughter to so many cheerleading competitions...
[Do nail salons take volunteers?]

opt

This is definitely a hard part of the whole thing, schtoop. Just hold on tight and make the right choices as the opportunities present themselves. You have your lawyer, and you're grounded. WW, not so much. She is thinking short-sightedly right now and just wants it all over so she can go chase the dream; use that to your advantage (of course with the kids well-being top-most in your mind). I got away with a couple of quick "payoff" type deals that were way to my advantage in the long run, b/c she was just so intent with washing her hands of the whole thing - keep your eyes peeled for things like that.

The kids are definitely feeling it. Do your best with them. This is really a hard time filled with mammoth uncertainty for them (the worst thing for a kid). You'll have your opportunities to continue to show your integrity as you go along, so don't worry, just go day by day with them for now.

Right. Stay in the game for the legal and official stuff first. Focus, focus, focus. After that you can deal with the emotional crap. You'll have plenty of time to roll that stuff over in your mind.

good luck with everything, schtoop.

opt

I showed a house to a newly divorced dad the other night. His marriage blew up over his WW's adultery...and he was able to get half time with his two small children (boy 5, girl 6). He was telling me about painting his little girl's finger nails and even gluing on the little butterflies too...and how she showed a waitress her hand and said, 'see what my daddy did?'....LOL...and the little girl wants her daddy to ask this waitress out but he said, 'dd, she looks pretty young, I dont even know if she is 18!' So the little girl asked the waitress, 'how old are you?' LOL.....I thought it was a really cute story, but really wanted to point out how little girls can be chick magnets especially when their dads are involved fathers....such as the Betrayed Men on this board.

I'd also like to chime in about dating too early....I did it...and wow am I sorry. I got involved with a man who I had trouble breaking free of (and yes I am seeing a pattern). I hope I know next time if I'm really ready.

Well, it's done!

Everything was settled in mediation yesterday and things went pretty much as planned.

We agreed on 50/50 split custody, physical and legal.

I get the priveledge of buying her out of the house and I get to keep my truck, boat, all my belongings.

She has to pay me a few hundred dollars each month in child support.

The buyout was a few thousand dollars more than I anticipated, but a few thousand less than she was expecting so I guess that makes it pretty fair.

The whole process took all day long was pretty exhausting. I don't know how negotiators can do this kind of thing day in and day out.

She's supposed to move out this weekend, but I'm afraid the process of moving out is going to be long and excruciating.

All that's left now is to file the agreement in court and go before a judge, which should be coming up in a few weeks.

Wow, she must really have wanted her freedom. I think deep down, she must have some remorse/regret for the way she's treated you. She won't show it to you, but she doesn't show the entitlement of most wayward wives who think they deserve everything in the divorce because they are women. Now she's free to pursue her "happiness" or so she thinks. I bet she comes sniffing back around once she realizes the grass isn't greener and you appear to move on with someone else. I know you don't care about saving your marriage, but it's best if you just mostly plan B her anyway for your own sanity.

Sorry, WW isn't wired that way, even before she was wayward. Once she has her mind set, she is stubborn and vindictive as the day is long. Even if she might have some pangs of regret deep down, she will just rationalize or justify them to herself and never ever let me see even a hint of it. No, there will be no more "sniffing around".

She did remark when we got home last night that she had been "nice" by letting me stay in the house. I just had to roll my eyes at that one after all she has put us throuh.

Hi schtoop,

I wondered were you had gone. I didn't notice that you moved from the SAA forum to here. I am in the same boat. What's your feeling now after the process is all done?

-- ElCamino72

Sounds like my deal. More parallel universe stuff for us I guess.
Having been down this road to some extent I can offer a couple tips.
You'll want to be around when she moves (obviously) to see what she takes. You might be surprised at what she leaves. Don't chase her down with it, just plan to sell it - it's your house now, so it's your stuff. Hire movers for your own emotional well being. Consider anything of hers bad energy and try not to touch it. I had someone do an "energy clearing" once she left. Kinda corny, but it actually made me feel better. Be strong and cooperative, cry once she's gone. It's the end of an era and there's no shame in grieving it.

Did the house property deal actually go through with exchange of titles and all that? If not, refinancing could take a while - it's a pain and could give her time to reconsider. This is a sprint, so keep up the pace like you've been doing. You're taking advantage of her waywardness and desire to get out so she can go chase her sleazy dream. She may have a little guilt buried deep in there somewhere too, take advantage of that as well.

I don't know if these are good "strategies" (and probably not MBish) - they are kinda how I proceeded through it all and so far I feel as good as one can in this ugly nasty situation of D (war, essentially - one she started by dropping a nuke in the living room). I was probably nicer than I had to be through the beginning stages but now I'm really trying to detach and rediscover myself. You can be nice if you think it will be advantageous for you, but I really think she just wants to start eating that nice green grass on the other side of the fence, so you probably can't screw it up no matter what you do.

The filing and court stuff takes a long time as I've pointed out before. A "few weeks" will be the very least, I bet. But, the light is there at the end of the tunnel. You've endured enough and you'll soon be able to breathe again. Your personal recovery took a big step forward this morning schtoop. If you're like me in your parallel universe, you have a ways to go. If I can walk this path, you certainly can.

~optimism

PS: you'll have the kids more than 50% of the time. Single parenting is so hard, but also very gratifying. You get a better sense that your true influence is prominent.

Opt, we really have been in a parallel universe. The only difference is that my WW's affair(s) are definitely physical.

To follow up on some of your points, I will definitely be around when she moves. In our agreement, there is a short list of furniture items, appliances (large screen TV), and kitchen stuff that she wanted. Otherwise, the wording says I get EVERYTHING else (don't know how her lawyer could have approved that). So, it will be up to me to enforce the "everything else".

Will start on the refinancing as soon as possible. But, there is no reconsidering. The way my lawyer explained it, the signed agreement is now binding unless there was a significant change of circumstances, in which case a motion would have to be filed before a judge. Buyer's remorse is NOT a valid legal reason. I was also led to believe that I would go before a judge in the next couple of weeks and then it would be DONE. Things move pretty quickly in my state and county.

I did take a jab at her out of spite last night that really pissed her off. I've got to do a better job of avoiding these actions, things are done now and we have to get along for the sake of the kids. I need to think "business", and not let any need for retribution color my actions.

ElCamino -

I've been following your thread and hate it that you've come to this. You were a big help to me when I was trying to recover. However, everyone has their limit and no one can fault you for recognizing that you have reached yours.

I will checking on your new thread on the D board and help with what advice I can. I have had a crash course in the divorce process and learned some lessons.

I can see what opt says about the emotional part with the moving. When I was moving I had to throw away a lot of crap related to my previous company and at the same time that STBX was in an IB rampage. The other tough one was dismantling what was left of my salt water aquarium. I couldn't get to do it myself so I had people come in and take away over $15K in gear and live stock.

I might need to pick your brain in the D process so please stay tuned.

Best wishes

--ElCamino72

This is all good. All good.
My lawyer was VERY cautious and Very conservative. She made me feel like ww could derail the whole thing on a whim if she woke up with a headache one day. I don't know if it was this State or her general approach - I've noticed she knows the laws extremely well and seems like the type to stay up at night thinking of ways things could get screwed up.

Sounds like your situation is much tighter and that's comforting for you. You can move on now with confidence.


This is where I'm at. Just how well we have to "get along?" I've nary spoken to ww since July 4th D-day anniversary. So far the kids have barely noticed, they honestly seem the same now as before when I was being too friendly for my own good (not really detaching emotionally, a process I've come to see as important in the healing).

I'll be interested to hear your experience with this. I think ultimately the kids really need to know they're safe and will get most of the things they need. Whether mom and dad hold hands and provide, or just provide I think matters little to their blessed little hearts. I expect going to the extreme would be unhealthy (downright hatred or total avoidance, etc. but I have no intention of going to that level; communication is essential even if just for logistic reasons.)

And you're right. Retribution is not necessary. However, I don't think there's anything wrong with letting my stbxww know exactly why I'm feeling the resentment I feel (and why I have no intention of holding hands and singing Kumbaya). Allowing the consequences of her actions to hit her smack in the face will give her something to think about; that doesn't bother me one bit.

Besides, a poster here told me a long time ago "living well is the best revenge."

Live well shtoop.

opt
Keep moving forward Schtoop.

Thanks for the perspective, Opt.

Final appearance before the judge is scheduled for Aug. 18. Things do move quickly around here.

On an unrelated note, I was sitting in a waiting room at the pediatrician's office with my six year old son the day after our mediation agreement. There was a very attractive single mom (didn't see a ring) there with her one year old son. There was no flirting or anything like that, but there was eye contact a time or two as her kid played around the room. I figured it was as good a time as any and I slipped my wedding ring off my finger for the first time in 16 years and put it in my pocket, never to be put back on.

I don't know why, but your story absolutely made my day, schtoop. I guess it's the way us guys tend to be ceremonious in our own ways.

Onward my good man, onward.

Opt