Hey, thanks N.O.T. for checking in.


Awww, that wouldn't be no fun. And what kind of a little brother would I be if I didn't give a little push back anyway?!


O

STBXww is taking care of her sick father (possibly dying) and decides it's a good occasion to pursue relationship talk (it started with me advising her as I'm in healthcare). I tried to stay out of the conversation but ultimately couldn't just clamp it. In the course of the conversation she asked if I was avoiding her just to "hurt" her. I explained that I was trying to free myself of the emotional attachment in order to facilitate my recovery and re-discover my true self; furthermore it wasn't just her, I was staying away from attachments with anyone and that my kids were my priority now.
She then laid on something about that "you're someone I care about so I want to treat you the way you want to be treated" (e.g. giving me space); but she didn't sound that sincere and pushed back on a couple of points - stating "we're just so different." This has become her mantra about why we're getting divorced (probably to deflect responsibility for the affair(s)).

After I hung up the thing that stuck with me was the "I care about you" sentiment. It didn't add up. So I wrote this letter. I'm debating on sending it. I stand to gain nothing personally; as I've said before if she moved to Mars it would have no affect on me emotionally. However, I continue to feel I have a vested interest in her making changes in her life because she is caretaker of my children 50% of the time. I feel that if I have an opportunity to influence her in a positive way, neglecting to do so would be irresponsible for me as a parent.

Writing the letter was important for me to see where I'm at in my recovery. I'm no longer afraid of offending her (except that it's not my nature to be rude or offensive). I realize I'm holding onto some resentment and that is reflected (I'm still working on that). However, I feel I've begun to understand the importance of boundaries and I feel that characterizes the letter. So, if folks advise that I shouldn't send it, that's okay because it was still helpful to write it. On the other hand, part of boundaries (I believe) is to make it clear to someone what it takes to consider them a "friend." My NOT defining my boundaries was part of the reason I'm on the D-train. Doing so is right.



Dear STBXWW
Don�t kid yourself into thinking you care about me. You only care about me now because you need me and you�re having a hard time on your own.

If you cared about me you would have respected me when I said your relationship with OM#2 was hurting me. You would have never had an affair with OM#1 and followed that up with more hurtful and secretive behavior with om, and oom, and God knows who else. Who did you care for then?

If you cared about me you wouldn�t have rejected the path to recovery that I have found to be helpful. You would have embraced it as an opportunity for us to get onto the right path - you would have jumped at anything that sounded promising. You would have given it a chance because you cared about me.

If you cared about me you would have done something to try and earn back the trust you threw away when you decided to develop an emotional bond with the neighbor, outside of our marriage and in front of the entire known world including your own children. To disrespect them like that was indirectly disrespecting me and showing me who you really cared for: yourself. To continue to hide the truth from them and attempt to allow them to grow up thinking it�s okay to engage in dishonesty and half-truths shows me you care about yourself more than your own children or me.

If you cared about me you wouldn�t have embraced the concept of divorce. You saw divorce as an opportunity for you to keep all the things you liked about our marriage (my emotional support, friendship, financial support, domestic support with the kids, social interaction) without having to be responsible for meeting my emotional needs of intimacy, domestic support, honesty & openness, spending time together instead of hiding in 17 different weekly t.v. shows and shoving me out the door to go play pool and bowl. You knew I was fundamentally opposed to divorce and I fought it for months, but you jumped at the chance - that�s not caring for me, that�s caring for you.

You have indeed been respectful of my wishes but it�s not because you care for me. I�m no longer your fool. You want to stay in my good graces because you don�t want to give up the benefits of our friendship.

I have no respect for how you conduct your life. This business of us being �different� is an excuse for you not to do any work. I prefer being different from someone who continues to �follow their heart� even though that path has led to marrying a man for the wrong reasons, having a physical affair and then repeating the behavior several years later that lead to the affair in the first place, and then divorcing that man even though he walked through hell to stay married. I prefer to open myself up to real change so I don�t repeat the same mistakes over and over. I prefer to set a repectable example for my kids so they don�t make the same mistakes I did someday.

If you want to get in my good graces and regain any sort of relationship with me, you�ll attempt to regain my respect first. That would start with truly taking responsibility for your behavior - admitting that what you did with OM#1 was more than just a �stupid, embarrassing mistake� and acknowledging that it was a reflection of your inner character and lack of boundaries. A sincere heartfelt apology to me and my children (in my presence) for everything you�ve done to this family would be followed with behavior that exemplifies how you would hope your daughter would behave when she�s an adult - including refraining from developing relationships with other men while you�re still married because this practice leads to adultery, or at the very least destroys the fabric of the relationship between a person and their spouse.

For the record: I have no intention of restoring marriage with you, now or in the future. The work it would take would be monumental and time consuming to the n-th degree. Quite frankly, I don�t think you have it in you and quite frankly I don�t think I could ever trust you again.

If you�re interested in earning back my respect, give me the space I need to continue to make positive changes in my life. And take the time to stop �following your heart� and try to figure out how you could have literally [censored] on a beautiful family. I may not have been perfect, but your intractable adulterous behavior last summer/fall/winter jolted me into a new frame of consciousness, along with a lot of help from Marriage Builders (people who have already travelled these roads and selflessly dedicate their time to help others navigate a path to true growth) and a lot of taking the difficult road instead of �following my heart.� If you choose to grow from this experience and set a positive example for our kids to follow, I will see you in a new light.



Thanks for any thoughts.

~opt

ummmmm....YES, you are CRAZY!!!!!!!

In all honesty Opt, I wouldn't send that letter. It might have been theraputic for you to write it, but the only thing I see here, besides the huge amount of DJ'S, is just another way to keep on having these silly talks with STBWXW.

You cannot teach a her because she is unteachable at this point. YOu can not MAKE her respect you or your boundaries, all you can do is re-enforce them......

I understand your desire for her to change and be a positive influence on the kiddo's but that's NOT your job. Besides, you have ENOUGH work to do on YOU.....

Now, I hope if nothing else you realize that each and every little talk you have with her only brings you BACK to these thoughts....which is why you STOP. When she brings this stuff up, you stop her RIGHT AWAY. The only person to blame for having this latest one is YOU. Learn to clamp it.....

Not

I tend to agree with not2fun. What's the point, really? Just kind of seems like banging your head on the same wall and expecting to get a different outcome.

Opt, I hope you sleep on it before sending the letter, because I don't think it's a positive influence. Presumably she already knows what you think of her actions, correct? What is your intent in repeating it? When I want to send a message like this, this is the acronym I learned from others, THINK:
Is it-
Thoughtful,
Honest,
Intelligent,
Necessary,
Kind

How would you feel about making a thoughtful request, that she refrain from telling you these things that annoy you? What do you think about Plan B?

You have Opt, you have. I have really missed you, Linus and TBC as I think we were all fairly alike in our attitudes and predicament. Having some time today I finally found your threads once again and I'm very glad I did.

You are truly a class act, and I'm glad to call you friend. Even if it's 'virtual'.

'bout time.....

Could have used some back up a bit back......

not

Don't send it, Opt.

Writing it was probably therapeutic. I write a lot myself.

At the very minimum, sit on it a few days and then come back and tell us how you feel about sending it. I betcha dollars to donuts that you'll scrap sending it.

Good to bounce it off of us, though!

TBC

No way in the world should you send this letter or any thing like it.
First, as stated before, it just opens the door for rebuttal and continuing discussion. That's what you want to end.
Second, pointing out all her failings is unlikely to lead to a good co-parenting relationship.
Third, she isn't going to change.

The best advice I EVER got in dealing with my ex when he started down a bizarre, destructive, hurtful road was to just call him a pinhead and hang up. While I never have done exactly that, I have said, "B, I gotta go. Bye." Or if he was way out of bounds, "This conversation is over." Click. The important part is to say "Gotta go" and immediately hang up. Turn off the phone.

I would have used the "Gotta go" right around the time she started asking if you were trying to hurt her. Although I may have had to stop laughing first. Avoiding her? You two are getting divorced!!! What did she think? You'd be her BFF? Some people are clueless. When I was divorcing B, he used to ask me for favors, to pick him up from the mechanics, to do x,y,z. I finally just started saying no.

You guys are great! Thanks for bouncing me and my idea around a little.
I started coming to my senses a couple hours after writing the letter. Had another conversation with her later that night (about the kids only) and she sounded better. I think it was the desperate tone in her voice that got to me. I did start to recognize a pattern: dysfunctional/morbid status quo until crisis hits and then expectation that everyone is going to come to her aid (this has been very common in our M, I even commented on it to my Mother a few weeks ago.). It's insane. Wondering if it's common in alcoholic families (her dad was a prodigious alcoholic).

Maybe it's the celibate lifestyle. I've begun singing Gregorian Chant also!

Okay, I really need to get this. I consider myself a good letter writer, but I suppose even a good letter isn't going to draw blood from a rock.
Thanks so much Not for keeping me on track.

\Thanks Sid, as usual she's right.

Ned, thanks for your input. I have not developed the strength for Plan B. So, I'm doing my pathetic rendition of it, which is why I get mixed up in these situations. But I'm getting closer. This conversation was much shorter than previous ones. And a month ago I would have sent the letter and THEN asked everyone's opinion!

I'm honored Limb. And don't worry, Knot did just fine knocking me around in your absence.

TBC, do you write letters and if so is it with the intention of sending them or do you know in the back of your mind you'll never send them? I admit I have a fantasy of my stbxw finding my thread some day (or better - having her recon my computer or something and finding letters I never sent...).

You're right - that was pointed out some time ago. Thanks for reiterating a very important part of all this.
See, now my first gut instinct is that that would be a hurtful thing to do. But, miraculously last night the section of "Boundaries" was all about how you can "hurt" someone without HARMing them - and that's okay if you're protecting yourself. If I can grasp that concept (and teach it to my kids) I think I'll be much more content with myself.
Uhh, yes, yes she did. And these are my chickens coming home to roost: During the beginning of the D process I made the mistake of appeasing her and softening my position on the whole thing (in an effort to get an agreeable settlement).
You're so right, and I'll keep your words in my head and try to see the bizarre macabre humor of her outlook.

And for the record, y'all, the letter wasn't FULL of DJ's. This phrase:

is actually quite complementary.



~opt~

So I get home from work tonight and stbxw's truck is in front of my house. My first thought was "I hope she's here to see OM#2 and not me." Well, I got my wish, they were sitting on his porch like old times with the kids (ours and his) all playing out front. The weasel/mole hasn't been out on the front porch all summer- yet last summer it was every day. And I'm supposed to think he wasn't up to something the whole time, clearly he was making himself available to her (and how willing an accomplice he had...).

I went in and finished some work. Feeling a little uneasy, but not jealousy or anything. I still think she's setting a horrendous example for my kids, but I can steer them right. I have the strength of character they need, I know that. They'll pick up on the contrast and make the right choices in life. They're smart like that.

I think the uneasiness was a little bit of wishing I could hang out on the porch with someone I enjoy. I value the restriction I've put on myself and I know that keeping my integrity intact will be worth 45 more days of walking through a bakery with my mouth sewed shut; but seeing the "other side" of the argument makes it a little tougher.

I also remember she told me once she slept with her xbf's room-mate in college as retribution for him breaking up with her. This scene reminded me of that, especially on the heals of last night's discussion. So, just in case that was the intention, I felt obligated to be a little bit hurt. But then I realized how sick someone would have to be to do that, and I felt better to be away from someone like that.


D8 came in and shyly asked me "so, Daddy, have you got back your trust for OM#2 yet?" (not sure exactly where that came from). I said "I don't need trust for OM#2, he's just a person who lives across the street from me." She said "he's not your friend anymore?" and I replied "I can't be friends with someone who has his moral code, I choose to be friends with different kind of people now."

I know she doesn't know what a "moral code" is but I did the best I could, and she definitely got the point. She is uncomfortable with Mommy hanging around with OM#2 and that's a good thing.

~opt~

Opt, regarding the hurtful and harmful, when I finally grasped that, some of the last pieces fell into place.

**********WARNING***********

This will get sensored.....but I've had all I can take today......

Opt......your STBXWW is such a [censored] [censored]!!!!! You are SOOOOOO well rid of her and honestly, I hope one day your kiddo's have enough sense left that when they can make the decision they will move in with YOU!!!

She has the sense of a COW.......and that is quite an insult to the cows.

One day Opt.....you WILL find the woman you deserve. It sure ain't this wench......

Not

Ps........{{{{{{{{Opt}}}}}}}}}}

Opt,

Sorry for chiming in so late, I've been a bit busy in the last couple of days (see my thread).

Glad you didn't send the letter. I don't have time right now, but there's a link to an article on "detachment" floating around on multiple threads and I think it would be good for you to read it.

One of the main points they hammer home is to accept others as they are, that you have no influence on the way others act, and to rid yourself of the need to "change" other people.

Nothing you can do will change your STBXW, so sending the letter would be pointless.

Thanks Not2Fun, but really, there's no need to mince your words, LOL.
Luvyalikeasis, Two.

opt

Thanks Schtoop. I've been meaning to look at that more closely as I have seen it in various places. So I did so a minute ago.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/14712-developing-detachment/

this jumped out at me, but the whole thing is good:

These two points exemplify where I would have been really off by sending the letter.

Man, am I glad I didn't send that.
shwew!

opt

Hey Opt,

Just keep listening to the voices of reason around here, and you'll be fine.......

Not's blast was epic, by the way. You just don't see rants of that caliber too often. Nice blast......

TBC

chya! I'll have what she's having!



opt

You all are too funny.....BELIEVE or not I have a huge tendancy to want to rant......often. However, I find that in all aspects of my life, be it on here or IRL, that my rants don't serve me well. Especially in my marriage.....and even during the affair......

Opt,

I want to cover something that needs to be looked at. You MUST talk with you DD soon about sexual abuse. Unfortuanately, the chances of your DD becoming a statistic is higher with the D. On average, 4 in 10 girls will be a victim and 2 out of 10 boys. She's going to have OM revolving in and out of her life like the wind (your STBWXW has no self-control in this area......so it is going to be up to YOU to educate and watch out for your DD as much as you can......). You have no control over whom your XW brings around your children and no amount of asking/begging/pleading/screaming is going to educate that woman. Every time you have already brought this up, she agrees with you, but only to shut you up. And since you really can't make her do anything, you need to educate your daughter on the IMPORTANCE of self-protection.

You need to explain what is off limits to others in regards to her body (ex. No one should EVER touch you in the private area's. Those area's being where the swimsuit covers....). Also, cover the point that she should NEVER touch anyone in those area's for any reason.

You need to explain to her what to do IF the situation ever occurs. (ex. she should get out of the situation ASAP...and tell YOU immediately. Or the police....). Talk about that people will sometimes offer her "rewards" for letting them do this actions and will also offer her "rewards" to buy her silence.

Tell her that IF this were to ever occur, that she can come to you and that you will do EVERYTHING necessary to ensure that it never happens again and that the correct justice will be served.

And then after you have this talk, you need to keep the doors of communication OPEN. Ask frequently if anyone has done these things and what she would do if it were to occur.

I'm saying this Opt, because I do fear for your children. The statistic of abuse is just too great to ignore. Not to mention this topic is near and dear to my heart. I also fear, because the chances has NOW risen because of the divorce but also your WW actions the other night shows as plain as day how her OWN selfish needs and wants come before those kids.

It BROKE my heart to read about your DD coming to you asking about the OM and trust. Hence, the rant.....

Not

Probably cause of all that craaaazy music you listen to!

...Just kidding.


Not, thanks so much for the suggestion and the heartfelt concern. This is the kind of thing that can't have a high enough importance placed on it. I know because it's near and dear to my heart also - thanks to a babysitter when I was 7.

I talked to them both tonight when they came in from playing. I hit the major points: what it is, what to do, and how to avoid it. I told them they should never be alone with any of mommy's boyfriends (or my gf's for that matter). I told them about the "reward" thing/bribery/deception that often takes place and that they could always talk to me no matter who says what.

They're both quite perceptive and I feel they will watch out for anything unusual in the future. One can certainly never be too careful.

I told them we would be having these talks again, just as reminders (like the repeated talk we have about how D was not their fault etc. etc.).

Not I really do appreciate you thinking of my kids (as you have many times before). I believe this issue has come up and I know I've talked to them, but i very much welcome the reinforcing the concept.

It BROKE my heart to read about your DD coming to you asking about the OM and trust.
I also took the opportunity to talk about trust. I asked DD why she brought it up the other night, just in case it came from OM or overhearing OM and stbxw talking. She said she didn't know and I believe her, I think just seeing them together prompted the question.

I told them trust was something that had to be earned, not just once, but all the time.


Good topics which will be revisited frequently in the Optimism Family 3 household in the future.

Thanks again 2.

opt