No, Mulan, that ISN'T my argument. Love and romance are ESSENTIAL. That's why I'm here, at MB. To build a romantic, passionate, love filled marriage.


Romance novels ARE emotional pornography. To say it isn't is to hold a double standard. It feeds an unrealistic expectation of the ideal man up into a woman's mind. No man could be what the men in a Romance Novel are.

The relationships are as false as the DD boobs and the 'barely 18' 25 year old on XXXskanks.com.

All of the struggle in a Romance novel is external. Inside, each and every person is perfect. They've found 'the one' if only the world would let them get together.

It IS porn - I mean comeon, at 15 I closed and hid the romance books as fast as I did the XXX websites when someone came around because I KNEW they were lewd and inappropriate.

The men are unrealistic, the sex is unrealistic and the love is just as much a fantasy as affair luuurrv.

That kind of love ISN'T possible in real life - thankfully the real life kind is better, and more fulfilling, if you are capable of building it, instead of just randomly falling into it by fate or chance or to fulfill some destiny.


That is the basic message of all the Disney fairy tales. There is no depth to any of those women.


If the shoe fits.


And yet - Ariel was still rewarded for her sacrificing of herself. She still got the Prince and lived happily ever after. There were no real consequences.

Plus - how can any of those relationships demonstrate anything about how love REALLY should be? They are based on lust and attraction. There is never any communication or affection, never are they shown growing together in love. They just see each other and KNOW they are MEANT TO BE!

How is that not ridiculous?


Now this is just silly and not what anyone is saying at all.

It is entertainment. And the issues the entertainment present are valuable teaching opportunities for the canny parent. DD may see the Disney stuff when she's older. So we can TALK about the differences between them and reality.

It isn't the love and fidelity that are a problem, it is the idealized, fantastical presentation of love that they present.

The love in these situations isn't REAL. It's potentially damaging to hold it up as an ideal.

You are holding these up as somehow better and more worthy than Twilight.

I'm saying it's all the same.

Entertainment and fantasy should not be the basis on which you found your moral center. To compare one to the other (Twilight to Romance novels) and say one has more virtue because of x, y, and z is fallacious.

NONE of it should be determining your viewpoints on ANY element of life: love, marriage, relationships, sex. NONE of it.

I loved the movie Fight Club - but am I going to use it to determine the best way to deal with rampant Consumerism in our culture? Of course not.

Am I going to show it to my daughter for that reason? No.

The issue isn't Don't watch Twilight because it's a bad example of relationships and love - read this Romance Novel instead. Because that option is less savory than the Twilight one.

The solution is to be good parents and teach strong moral values and model them in your life. Because the life a parent leads will carry much more influence than the book Little Sally reads at night.


Obviously you didn't, because you completely misunderstood my thesis.


And how much space does porn take up on the internet?


No, it really doesn't. It is a lie. It is fake.



Sure thing - I got plenty more.

And just in case you don't get it this time:

Using ENTERTAINMENT as the source of your moral compass is dangerous and problematic. You cannot point to one (Twilight) and another (Romance Novels) and arbitrarily say one is better than the other. They're both equally bad. The only benefit they have in teaching morality is that they provide a good parent the opportunity for candid discussion about reality vs. fantasy. And it is a parent's responsibility to monitor and control the exposure and dialog.

That is because entertainment, in our society, does not come with a moral. It is just entertainment.

Mulan, I don't get why you're getting upset and exasperated. You nitpicked at Twilight and how it teaches bad relationship values based on abuse. And I'm saying that's a given, if for no other reason, it's a storyline based off supernatural creatures that feed off human beings. Sure, it's dressed up with a splashing of romance thrown in. But the story is about vampires and werewolves and the eventual war that comes. And when we start nitpicking and analyzing about the smaller details that make up the larger picture. But the movie is about the war between werewolves and vampires (with a bunch of feminine looking protagonists).

No one said love and romance are b.s. We�re talking about genres of literature. And while these genres of fiction will in some ways mirror real life, they are still works of fiction meant to be enjoyed as fantasy. In all of the examples�Disney, Twilight, romance, etc a lot of it comes down to characters trying to find themselves and happiness in the world around them. And, regardless, of the subgenre, so many pieces of fiction come down to leaving the reader with false expectations and bad examples of love and romance and what it�s supposed to look like.

But I�m not going to start yelling at Danielle Steele for creating false expectations of what women should expect from men. Or I�m not upset that Scarface looked like it glamorized being a cocaine dealer despite him getting shot up at the end.

I don�t think were as unimaginative as you�re making us out to seem by only being able to look at the most shallow aspect of fiction. And your insulting accusations that we can�t see beyond shallow inferences is, well, insulting. I have an English degree with many hours of film studies under my belt and am very familiar with analyzing and dissecting fiction in both the written and on the screen. So, of course, I can get into dissecting the abusive nature of Bella�s relationship with Edward and Jacob and how millions off teenage girls are seeing this and etc just as well as I sat and did a literary analysis of Paradise Lost or when I did a paper on the Canterbury Tales or write about the symbolism in the relationship of The Green Knight and Sir Gawain. I don�t go to the movies for life lessons; I go to the movies to be entertained. I didn�t walk out of Avatar irritated about what the movie represented and it�s subtext of the mercenaries represented this group raping and pillaging this minority group. I walked out thinking how cool it looked in 3D.

We can relate to the characters sometimes because the complexity of their relationships mirror real life and we empathize and sympathize with their struggles and battles and boo and hiss and cheer and get goose bumps. But when you start analyzing the take home message of some of the works of fiction like Twilight and Harry Potter and The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe (can we even count how many essays have been written on this piece?) then all works are fair game to be analyzed. I will say if I have to spend another class going indepth about the movie The Matrix I�m going to shoot myself. I hate that movie.

So, sure, Ariel realized it was wrong to give up her voice. But we can also throw out that she surrendered everything for true love just like in romance novels. That is what is on the surface just like on the surface, romance novels create a lovely lesson of what romance looks like and when the man in a woman�s life doesn�t match what was in the novel, she is disappointed.

So, again, sure Twilight has poor examples of relationships. But it�s not Hollywood�s job to teach relationship morals, that is the job of parents. And any girl that walks away thinking that they were taught a lesson about how relationships work in the movie needs to have their parents talked to because tehy are not displaying what should be expected in a relationship.

Yes, let's tell everyone jumping off that SAME CLIFF in New Moon screaming they can hear Edward, that it's just fiction...

Go to amazon.com

Search under books for "Janeen O'Kerry"

You can also watch a John Wayne movie called *The Quiet Man.* It is 100% a Romance tale and would fit perfectly on the Romance shelves in a book store.

*Captain Blood*, just on last night, is also a Romance.

Both stories fit the Romance requirements exactly.

If I find any more, I will post the titles if anyone is interested.

Famous films that are NOT Romances:

*Gone With The Wind*

*Titanic*

That's because the heroes/heroines either take up with others during the story, or they do not end up together, or both. That disqualifies these stories from the Romance shelf.

Manstream films that ARE ALSO genre Romances:

Phantom of the Opera

The Wedding Date

Han Solo and Princess Leia in Star Wars

Aragorn and Arwen in Lord of the Rings

NOT a Romance:

The Twilight series - not if Bella is sneaking around with Jacob behind Edward's back, and vice versa

Mulan, have you actually read the books? Are you going solely off of the movie itself. As always, the movies do not do the books justice. I LOVE the books. The movies are okay.

I hadn't read many books in YEARS. I used to read books when I was young. One of my favourites was Great Expectations. I have a copy that is falling apart because I read it so many times. I love Charles Dickens novels. I love Stephen King. I ADORE William Shakespeare. One of my faves is Romeo and Juliet. In some ways, Twilight reminds me of Romeo and Juliet.

The whole part about Edward being a vampire whose "instinct" is to kill people. He must resist this instinct for ALL people. He hasn't ever been in love before and when he meets Bella, she becomes his reason for living. He doesn't want to put her in danger and tells her often that she shouldn't be with him, but they are attracted to each other and don't want to live apart. He can read people's minds, except hers and he is intrigued. For more than 100 years, he knew what everyone was thinking, but with her, he can't know. Does it show a great example of a real relationship? NOPE. Does it show a romanticized view of life? Of course. And that's why people love it. I LOVE IT. Do I LOVE Edward? No. BUT I AM TEAM EDWARD ALL THE WAY.(only means that I believe that Bella should pick EDWARD and NOT Jacob).

I have read the books 3 times each, watched the movies countless of times and am looking forward to the next two movies. What I will say is that since I read the books, I have found my LOVE of reading again. I have just finished the Outlander Series by Diana Gabaldon, another romance series not based in reality since it is about Time Travel. I don't like the "typical" romance stuff. I am not too interested in reading about heaving bosoms etc. I like the storyline. As long as it keeps me turning the pages, it can't be that bad.

BTW, it took me 8 days to read all of the Twilight books the first time round.

I will continue to read what makes me turn the pages. I read Wuthering Heights. Billed as one of the BEST romance novels of all time and I HATED IT. BUT, I read it because it was on Stephanie Meyer's list of books to read.

Have you read The Host? I didn't think it was as good as Twilight but I did read it twice.

Kilted, the vampires in Twilight series are governed by The Volturi and they CAN NOT expose themselves to humans, with death as punishment. They can NOT go out in the sunlight because people would know that they weren't human. Same with all the flipping of cars, etc. It's just an interesting SPIN on the vampire folklore. It's all in FUN.

I don't read anything that Stephanie Meyer recommends. I need to go find that list so I know what not to read.

Scotland, did you read The Short Second Life of Bree Tanner? Victoria's newborns do smash things and flip cars. The Volturi have their reasons for ignoring it, which Edward alludes to at the end of Eclipse.

Scotland - I *love* this series! One of the things I appreciate most about it is that it's not the traditional boy meets girl boy looses girl boy gets girl back romance novel. I always tell people it's boy meets girl boy gets girl boy and girl get married and then live their entire lives growing old together and it's a REAL life, it's not all sunshine and rainbows and roses!

btw - where is *MY* Jamie! <swoon!>

I have not read the *Twilight* books. But even if I had - a film should always stand on its own. You shouldn't have to read the book to "get" the film, no matter what it is. I have heard nothing to indicate that the message of the *Twilight* books is any different from the message of the films. And even if it is - the films are still out there.


Only in the most casual way, the way the rest of us must resist the instinct to shoplift a candy bar. There are plenty of other alternatives and it's really no big deal.

But the thing I find so appalling is that Edwards is strongly driven to kill Bella BECAUSE he loves her and BECAUSE he is attracted to her.

He ignores the other cute teen girls at the school. They don't seem to be in any danger from him at all. It's just Bella who is threatened by him, BECAUSE he finds her so attractive.

But he won't kill her as long as he loves her ENOUGH to stop short of murder. So, if she wants to live, she had better make sure he stays in love with her.

Otherwise, all that's left is the animal attraction that he has for Bella (and no other girls).

And then he'll kill her.

Therein lies the message that I find so appalling: Yeah, he's a murderous monster, but he won't hurt ME because he loves me and I'm special.

And I find it appalling because THAT is what the female audience is swooning over.

This is a terrible message to send to women and girls: That men won't hurt you if they love you enough. But if you don't make sure they love you enough, well, then they could murder you.

Which is exactly what Edward SAYS to Bella in the film. Even it it's different in the book (is it?), it's bad enough to have it in the film.

Men worthy of falling in love with are men who don't hurt women. Period. Not "I won't hurt you if you make sure I love you," but "I won't hurt you because I don't hurt women."

I knew very little about *Twilight* before seeing it. I'd heard it was about "emo vampires" and sounded pretty silly, but that's all.

The message in it jumped out at me in block letters 10 feet high before it was half over.

Personally, I would much rather have girls modeling the Disney princesses - who are kind, loyal, unselfish and brave - than somebody like Bella, who toys with dangerous men and cheats on "the love of her life" when she thinks he's not looking.

Besides, anything that can take a handsome and charismatic young guy like Robert Pattinson (see *Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire) and make him look like a mutated clown is bad enough in my book.

Do Edward and Bella end up together? How does the series end?

Mulan, I'm not sure why you're stuck on this seeming take home message of Edward won't kill Bella as long as he loves her enough. This is a movie about a vampire. That's really all that needs to be said. This is like analyzing Louie's relationship with the little girl. He's so caring and protective even though he's a vampire *swoon* Insert eye roll. Twilight is not a timeless classic. It's not a social commentary. It is simply a movie that has a vampire that loves this chick.

Again, any girl walking out of this movie with notions on relationships needs to have their parents talked to.

And I can't believe we're actually talking about how great Twilight is. It's horrible. The books and the movie. I think Stephen King said it best in his thoughts about the Twilight series.

I went and saw Lord of the Rings. I didn't like the movies much. I didn't get the movie though because I hadn't read the books.

Can we all just agree that Braveheart is the best movie ever?

Now THERE was a love story!

AYOOYFM ???



I can't write that one out. Let's see if you can figure it out on your own ...

What?! I'll see your AYOOYFM and up you a LMAO...you can't be serious!

How can you not love and adore a movie like Braveheart. It may not be THE BEST movie ever...but it is definately in the top 5 ever made. I'd put it up there with The Never Ending Story and The Godfather.

I'm going to assume ...
... that you intended to put one of these ---> ? on the end of that sentence.

I found Braveheart to be too "squishy".

As in, blood and guts.

Maybe it's time to re-look ... my beloved H adores Braveheart.
But, what does he know?
He's only worked in that industry, what? 30 + years ???

Mulan, I think you misunderstand. I have read Stephanie Meyer's first 12 chapters of Midnight Sun, which is Twilight from Edward's POV. It is ABSOLUTELY AWESOME. I wish she would have written all of the books from Edward's POV.

I think you are misunderstanding WHY Edward wants to "kill" Edward. It is because she smells appetizing. She smells more appetizing to him than anyone else. She smells FANTASTIC to ALL Vampires, but especially good to Edward. That is what Aro says to Edward when he sees them together in New Moon. It is like she is a really good meal. He wants to EAT her. He is going against his instinct to "eat" her. THAT is what I was talking about. It has NOTHING to do with abusive relationship and I don't even know how you got there.

Had you said that Bella was a poor example for a teenaged girl because she is extremely insecure and she shouldn't allow Edward to become her WHOLE life, I would have agreed with that. Do they have a tumultuous relationship? Uh YEA. That's why it is good to read and watch.

I don't think the movies were even a 2 compared to the books. the acting in Twilight was HORRIBLE. the people they used to represent the characters weren't even close to the books. They left A LOT out of the movie that SHOULD have been left in. I LOVED the books. I watch the movies because it is faster than reading the books and when I want a twilight "fix" I watch the movies.

I can see your points, I just don't think that someone can properly judge something unless and until they have ALL of the facts. I am A FAN. I LOVE the books. I LOVE the story.

They helped me find my love of reading again and for that I am eternally grateful.

that would be because (I forget the Italian name they use in the books) she smells GOOD to him, rather like a roast lamb with roast potatoes, pumpkin, steamed vege and gravy smells to us. (and mint sauce *drool* )

He resists killing her like I resist killing last years calf, because its not.quite.ready.
Mind you I do NOT want to get into a romantic relationship with my food.

When Bella finally becomes a vamp its not Eddy who does her in, its his sister. And 9its not so much as Eddy kills her, as she gets given the 'gift' of immortality, and that's not much of a sacrifice for the average teenager, who lets be honest, thinks they are 6 foot tall and bullet proof...