Mulan-I read the thread, thanks. Its funny cause I have accused him on more than one occasion of being passive aggressive. Guess I was not that far off the mark.

You will not be able to commit to staying in the marriage until you believe that it will be WORTH IT to stay. This means that you have the hope that it will be good/happy/loving. It doesn't have to be that way right now, but you have to believe that it WILL be like that.

Your husband has done nothing to indicate to you that that will be the case. All he has done has stop his affair. There is no promise that he will NOT have an affair in the future. There is no commitment from HIM to show you love and care. You don't need the feelings - you need the action and the hope that the feelings will come.

You cannot commit because there is no hope of a brighter future. It would actually be unwise for you to commit without this hope, because then you would be committing yourself to a life of potential misery.

He needs to demonstrate he is worth loving and trusting by acting lovable and being trustworthy.

If you have a freeloader husband, it's going to be harder.

Could you say to your husband something like:

"I would be willing to commit if I believe that our marriage can be better than it was before your affair and if we can create romantic, passionate love between us. I have found a program (Marriage Builders) that I believe can do just that. It has rebuilt MANY marriages that were right where we are right now, stronger and more loving than ever before. I am willing to committing to THAT program in an attempt to build our marriage. Would you be interested in something like that?"

Vibrissa
My H has promised that he will never cheat again, the problem is that I don't believe him, in 2001 I had gotten into his e mail and saw that he had a 6 year EA, we went to counseling at that time and promised he would never do that again and dumb a$$ me believed him, well not only did he break that promise but he stepped up the affairs to a physical, the first affair was only months after the counseling, and the other affair lasted 5 years, so we can see how seriously he took that, so why the heck should I believe anything he says now?? I would be a darn fool; that means that all that is left is his actions and like I said-I am not feeling the love and at my age I don't know that I have a lot of time to hang around for a serial cheater to get the true sense of the damage that he has done.
We are about to look into the MB program. Thanks so much for your response.

teaser, I am not saying you should make up your mind one way or the other [only you know if you can overcome the resentment] but the difference is that if the program is followed, it is much less likely to happen again.

The reason is because MB doesn't subscribe to acting on trust, but using extraordinary precautions. That means that his life will become so transparent that it would be impossible to lead the secret second life necessary to conduct an affair.

Melody
That is good to hear because I don't see how I would ever be able to operate on trust ever again, so if thats the case then it takes that burden off me. I told him what you just said and he is giving it some thought.

Wish me luck.
I am also wanting to make sure that he does not try to back me into a corner of commitment. I am so not there.

teaser

I wish I had more time right now but I don't. You are not alone, everyone here understands and wants to help. My situation is similar to yours. All I can say is it is worth it if you can get him on board. If I had not been able to get GM on board with the program I would have had no reason to stay. He was immediately remorseful but still not trustworthy and continued to lie and lie some more. I made it a requirement that he post here. I was not going to stay if he did not. It provides an enormous relief for you. Let others bust him and correct his foggy and stubborn ways. Let them make him feel the brunt of what he has done. You will still have rage and anger but it will be much easier for you to get past. It will take a while. I still have problems with that on occasion but usually when I am frustrated that he is not understanding what I am trying to tell him I need from him.

We are about the same age. If he does not get on board and I mean really really on board I would have to agree that you do not have the time to waste on him. If he does there can be some good life and things will at least feel better enough most of the time to hang in and work it out.

My advice to you at this point is to give him a list of what you require him to do in order for him to stay or for you to stay married to him. I would include at the very first to post here, to get and read the books and to council with one of the Harleys, both of you. Also the online program. We did the weekend and it made a huge difference. You can figure out your own needs and prioritize them after that but those were my musts at first and they made all the difference in the world. I do not believe I would be here now if he had not done those things, we would certainly not be married at this point.

It is going to be a long haul. Can you do it if he makes the effort, an honest effort? We are getting close to two years since the first D Day and we have miles to go. My heart aches every day but it is a different kind of ache now, one of loss but there is less immediate pain. My FWH is now the man I married but lost the same day we wed. That is enough for me to work it out. I finally have that man back, I want to see if it can work. I think it will if I can just stick with it. He says it is all up to me, he is going nowhere. See if you can talk to him about that and try to get him on board so you can have some relief. Let the vets here break his reluctance and explain to the man that what he did is going to take far longer than 4 months for you to even process let alone decide what to do. Good grief honey. Many hugs to you. I will look in when I get back.

Now off to give the goats a bath!

Dances
Well I have spoken to him and he is willing to get on board, with the online program but with the posting he wants to think about it, I am not sure what his concerns are wit that. I have told him not to agree to do the on line program unless he is willing to do all that is required. He agrees, I must say that I am cautiously optimistic, as I have said before, he tends to make promises that to date, he has not been willing or able to keep.
I understand and agree with everything you have said, I will give him my list as I had posted here before and see what he is willing to commit to, of course, my problem is that if there is something I put on my list that he is not willing to do, then that puts a halt on everything does it not?

teaser, the difference now will be Dr Harley can prod him instead of you. If he doesn't follow through, he will be hearing from his MB coach!

But here is the thing. Most WS' like the program so much [because they stand to benefit in so many ways] that they don't have to be prodded. My H is so happy about our undivided attention time that he is very proactive about Marriage Builders. Once he sees what this is about he may become more invested.

my sentiments exactly. WTH!!!!! I tell you what I want, you are the cheater, the liar and a host of other things I don't want to get into right now and you are hesitant about this? see, now can you see why he gets on my last nerve?

Hey teaser, if you get him into the online program, he won't be able to RESIST your request that he come here and post. If he did he would have to explain to his coach and perhaps Dr Harley.

I suggest you wait on that part and then bring it up again later. The nice thing about him posting here is we will be able to see where he is foggy and address that. Some of us are better addressers than others.

In other words, bullcrap has a short shelf life around here!

teaser, reading through your story, it is NO SURPRISE at all that you are feeling the way that you are and that your R is stalled out.

Your H needs to demonstrate a willingness to change and to make protecting the marriage a #1 priority. The MB plans would have him do this by a) accepting full responsibility for the As, b)acknowledging that he allowed another person to meet his ENs and that is the reason for the A and c) develop a detailed protection plan (Extraordinary Precautions) in order to prevent another woman from ever meeting any of his ENs again.

You won't do well with rebuilding your M (meeting ENs and avoiding LBers) until these steps are taken and I am happy to hear you will be doing the online program. If you can afford it, I would even schedule an appt with Steve Harley in the meantime.

From my own experience, I just want to caution you to look at lovebusters ~ AOs (Angry Outbursts) and DJs (Disrespectful Judgements) in particular. These are extremely damaging to M and will stall your R. No matter how bad your H's behavior, they are not justified.

Hang in there.

All I can say is-great!!!

The lovebusters thing will be a challenge for me, after all how will I vent my anger? but anyway, I am willing to try. Maybe if he truly invests himself into the program there will be less angry outbursts from me.

I have to tell you guys that I can't wait for him to start posting here, I need for you guys to talk to him, I can just see the 2x4s that will be coming his way, he has done a lot of awful things, lots of stupid choices, sometimes I wonder who he is.

Teaser, if it's not TMI, may I ask why you were away from the marriage for 2 1/2 years?

You're getting some GREAT advice BTW from some of the best! We're close in age also. My DH and I will be married 33 years next month.

My DH had two affairs and we recovered. I didn't have MB though so I did just about everything wrong and really lucked out that we even recovered. I remember the rages! I felt like I was going insane and when I was in the middle of it I remember thinking, "what are you doing Princessmeggy? You're gonna end up driving him away anyway."

Please follow the advice you're getting carefully. A successful Recovery is a very narrow path, but you'll end up with a brand new marriage.

Princess-Thanks for asking. Its not a very short answer.
In 2001 I discovered(or I should say my DD discovered) that my H was involved in a EA. Again, I got into his e mails and discovered that it had been going on for 6 years-that was the span of the e mails( I sure wish I had MB then). This was my first experience and of course, I did not handle it well. We went to counseling through my church, be begged me to give him another chance, promised it would never happen again but of course my anger prevailed, we aborted counseling because I felt he was not cooperating, once we were given an assignment to discuss certain things, when I asked him questions, the answer was either, I don't know, there was no reason or I can't remember so when we went back I told the counselor that it was a waste of my time if thats the way he was going to behave, when the counselor questioned him his response as that I was just mad because I did not get the answers that I wanted. so that was the end of counseling, but my anger remained. I resented the hell out of him. So in 2002 I was asked to run for the 2003 elections, I did not want to do it but in the end agreed because I thought that if I threw myself into campaigning I would be over my anger by the tie it was over, unfortunately that was not the case, after the elections(I lost) my anger came back. At the same time my H was looking for a job and could not find one, he told me that he was unhappy in the job he had and wanted to move back to the USA, I agreed and started winding up my practice, in 2004 as I had just finished closing my practice he got a job and changed his mind, my daughter was also graduating from high school and I felt that college in the US was the way for her to go so I came up with her-now at this time H and I agreed to sell the house and when the sale was completed he would move to the US, the house never got sold and so a couple of years, in DD's junior year, I decided to return home. I want to make it clear that we were not separated, I came home and visited and he came up to the US every chance he got for the holidays and for our birthdays and for his vacation.

teaser,


If you want your marriage to recover, you have some work to do.

Your husband has his own set of tasks, but you also have yours. It isn't all on him, sorry to say.

One of the things that you need to stop right away is lovebusting.

LB'ing does not do anything to move the marriage into reconciliation. It is not productive. It is not a way to get anyone to cooperate. It is not a way to move a person toward loving you.


We all get angry, and we all want to vent. The problem is that as a BS, right now your person to vent to is NOT your husband. You can come online to vent, and we will listen. You can vent to your real-life friends, IF you can trust them to listen only and be discreet. At your point in recovery, you cannot affort to LB your husband, and try to call this "venting". It doesn't work that way. LB'ing your husband is not a way to make things BETTER.

How do you stop? Consider going back to the basics: self-control.

If your husband were a 4 year old child, would you be able to control what you said to him?

Of course you could.

If your husband were the Prime Minister and you were angry with him, would you be able to control what you said to him?

Of course you could.

If your husband were your elderly grandmother, and you were angry with her, would you be able to control what you said to her?

Of course you could.


There is no excuse for failure to control what comes out of your mouth. NO. EXCUSE. You are always in complete control of what you say. The difference with your husband is that your relationship with him is such that the two of you feel close enough to "say anything" with impunity. Only that DOES NOT WORK. Because while you do want to say what you are thinking and feeling, it is HOW you say it, the words and tone you choose, that make the difference between

lovebusting

and

productive and respectful communication.



You CHOOSE to lovebust. The option is that you can choose NOT to. You can choose self-control instead.


Because the one person you ALWAYS control?


Is YOU.


That is how you "stop" lovebusting.


SB

Man, teaser, you are getting some TERRIFIC advice here. I do hope you will take it to heart. Your biggest challenge, it appears, is to calm down, use your head and get a grip on your emotions. Hardest thing most of us had to do, but critical to get moving in the right direction.

Lots of us posting to you are in your age group and were married for decades when our husbands went off the rails. We've all dealt with the lying, the broken promises, the maddening "I don't know" answers. We have all been provoked beyond fury...

AND with the help we received here and through the MB program and coaching, we learned to stifle our angry outbursts (which only convince our waywards that we are shrews and their adulterous behavior was justified--"OW never spoke to me like that!"), made it SAFE for them to be honest, and looked at our own behavior that contributed to a marriage that became vulnerable to an affair.

That is NOT to say that THEY are anything but 100% responsible for their selfish choices, but each of us had to take a look at our own behavior pre-A too. For my part, I had made my career my #1 priority. So much more fulfilling than dealing with a silent, withdrawn H who could not be cajoled into having a heart-to-heart conversation with me. A big mistake on my part, but I'd used up all my creativity over the years, trying. An affair was inevitable. Only reason it wasn't me was because I fell in love with my job!

Please, please take some deep breaths, talk to Steve Harley (your H too), and use the logic and self-possession that makes you so effective in your job to work the Plan offered here. It really is your best hope. You will still be angry and resentful (most of us struggle with that for a very long time, but it CAN be contained) as you proceed through the logic of the MB program, but it fades into the background as good things start happening between you.

And if, in the end, your H simply will not get with the program, you can divorce him, knowing you used every means available to you to construct a marriage better than the one you've known. After all the years you've invested, the odds are that you will make it. I doubted my FWH and I could...but we did. History and family MATTER.

Praying for you.