Treadwell, if you have not already please look at this MB thread titled "The Fantasy of Divorce". You must be prepared for what you will most likely hear, and it's outrageous:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2279757&page=1

Treadwell, how will she get to work if she lives with her father?

What do you think triggered all this?

This all started with me becoming anxious about two to three months ago. Slightly more needy as a result, but nothing overwhelming for me. Just more annoying. No prolonged battles between us, just small flare-ups. I have felt something between us that caused me to be fearful. Some of the things I thought were wrong, ended up being untrue or dead-ends, so I blamed myself. Otherwise we've had regular romance, communication, time together, etc... during this time.

A week ago last friday, she went on a girl's night out with my sister. These are women in their late 30's. She has done this about once every couple months and I've been OK with it so long as the boundaries were maintained: No excessive drinking, tell me exactly where you are going, and be home early. She has abided with this and the fact that it's with my sister helps my fears. They also post photos of their get-togethers (usually at a sushi restaurant)

But a week ago Friday she did not adhere to boundaries. Because of my anxiety over the past 2 months, I was more uncomfortable than usual about her going out. We had about three days of discussion about this. No yelling, just irritation. It came down to me saying I didn't trust her in certain situations.

She came home late and had been drinking a lot.(was NOT drunk-- but mightve been close when she was out) We argued. I told her she didn't uphold our boundaries and she apologized sorta half heartedly. She asked me if i wanted her to leave, because she was being obstinate and I said yes. She stormed out and went to sleep at her office in her pajamas. (she has two offices... long story) She did in fact go there.

Over the next two days we made up, she apologized about the boundaries broken and said she would not do that again. Told me she did it because she was enraged with my moodiness and mistrust. Things were slightly strained but seriously, I felt pretty solid considering. She was affectionate. We actually had a sweet moment together on Monday afternoon (last week) talking about being together that night and doing something we had planned. I thought to myself what a good feeling and overall sense of peace I had. I was happy.

While we were sitting together she was checking her email and I saw an email from a guy I didnt know. I asked who he was. He wasn't on her friends list. The brief message said "It was nice meeting you friday night (gals night out), sorry I couldnt make it out to the expo (she had an work-related expo saturday morning). Maybe we can meet up again" etc... My hands started shaking and the day went from sunny to pitch black in seconds. I felt the horrible chill of betrayal all over again.

She had told me she hadnt talked to any guys. LIE. The guy is like 10 years younger than her. Her explanation was that they she wasnt flirting, just trying to get people to come out to the expo. She said she had not given the guy any personal info and that he hunted her down. This is all somewhat disingenuous and I feel the truth is somewhat in between. I emailed the guy immediately and he told me he had only spoke to her briefly, that there was nothing untoward about the discussion. I told my wife, even if this is true, it's a serious breach of boundaries to invite another man anywhere, while you've been drinking-- gals night out or not. I told her this guy received the invite like any guy would, and that is as a GREEN LIGHT. She flipped out and then gave me the "I'm DONE/I can't do this anymore" speech.

More info about her: she is a smart woman, but has always lacked serious discernment when it comes to people and their motives. She also is not the most self-aware person. She is very gullible in matters of business and believing people's stories. She has a very hard time--almost impossible time-- believing that someone would have bad motives toward her. This has affected her throughout her life in many areas unrelated to the infidelity. When in counseling, we delved into the bad motives of her affair partner, how he just wanted to use her and that she'd been just another conquest to him... she couldnt handle it. She has incredible difficulty processing people's motives, particularly bad motives. This weakness in her personality has caused me to sometimes play "cop" or parent. This drives her crazy, of course.

Wow, Treadwell. Reading your post is like reliving my life with my WH.

I always thought I was a calm, intuitive person and couldn't understand it when my intuition started SCREAMING at me that something was wrong. I snooped and questioned WH only to be told how insecure, jealous, and psycho I was. I went to therapy to work on "MY" jealousy issues. That was such a painful, confusing time because I always thought I could trust myself and my feelings, however I was being told otherwise by my WH. Of course, I later found out, I was being gaslighted.

Your WW has said and done almost exactly the same things my WH did (soon to be ex-WH, just had final court hearing earlier this week).

Keep trusting yourself and listen to the great advice you're getting on here. I wish you and your children the best, you don't deserve to be treated this way by your WW.

Wow. Yeah. The "gaslight effect" has only occurred to me this week and now i realize it has been in full effect in my life for three years. Evidence of this is the overwhelming sense of being soul-destroyed I now have. I feel like a shell of a man. But only around or with this person. Apart from her I am confident, social, engaging, trusting and generous.

I have been fighting off ghosts and phantoms of her doing for three years, while she has coldly and judgmentally watched me suffer. I've been scolded and berated for my "irrational" fears and raked over the coals for my lack of trust, only to find out the fears and mistrust were very, very well-founded.

The issue I will have to resolve somewhere down the road is how I allowed myself to be gaslighted for so long. It takes a compliant partner to be a "victim". I'd like to believe it was that I loved her... I've known her since she was 14... Married at 20... four kids... Our family and home have been a wonderful source of joy over the decades. I wanted to believe all was well in this world. It is not. At least for now.

Weekend Update:

The conflict this weekend has been this-- she wants to leave, stay with her father during the week while I watch and take care of the kids. She wants to come back to the house on Thursday night at which point I will leave and go who knows where... while she stays with the kids at our house until Sunday morning, when I return. Changing of the guards, in the same house.

I told her again... I will not cooperate with any plan that is not in the best interest of the marriage or the family. Fracturing our lives and those of the kids is not in the best interest of the family. She got frustrated with my utter unwillingness to accommodate her selfishness. I told her the choice is hers, I wasn't telling her what to do, but I was telling her what I was doing.

I also told her, if she stayed with us, I would do everything in my ability to make the house a happy place and to not be the source of her unhappiness. I also told her that if she stays, I cannot act in some "different" way towards her... I am her husband, and as such I will show her affection, respect, be communicative and will endeavor to act the way a caring husband acts towards his wife. I will not be some disconnected automaton, coexisting in the same room with her. If she doesn't want that, then that is her choice to make.

We went to bed. Things were a little uncomfortable again. Her face had many lines and her eyes looked empty. My guts were churning.

This morning I got up and determined to move forward confidently and stick to my word. She came into the kitchen I said "hi" and hugged her for about a minute. I kissed her forehead tenderly and then went about my tasks. I dropped her off later, and she moved to kiss me first.

This is so tough.

It would be so easy to run away or cooperate with the selfishness and just let her go. When I go into my five year old daughter's bedroom and see the framed photo hanging on her wall of dad and mom ("prince and princess" to her) on their weeding day 16 years ago, I am reminded of how important that loving relationship is to the stability and security of their lives. And I must fight for that.

You did great in plan a!

Don't let her stomp all over you, make it firm and understanding, I think you did a great job, you didn't LB you told her exactly what you were going to do because you are her husband, and giving her a hug and a kiss was BRILLIANT!

Hugging her will help her be less angry with you, even though she doesn't want to do it, but when someone gives you a hug there is some part of you that can't be angry to the person hugging you. So hug her as much as you can.

Thanks for the encouragement Sapphire! I needed that!

Keep doing what you're doing.
You currently have her off balance by being unexpectedly strong, yet pleasant.

Treadwell, you are doing a perfect job! You have good instincts about this.

One suggestion might be to call the counseling center at Marriage Builders and get a session with Steve Harley. If he gets her on the phone he may be able to persuade her to give your marriage another try. He is pretty good at getting through to withdrawn spouses. He would tell you what to say to her to get her on the phone, something like: Steve is helping me with this situation and he could help me better if he had your perspective. That usually works because the spouse hopes that Steve will convince you of her cause.

Once he gets her on the phone he will try and talk her into staying and recovering the marriage. He is very, very persuasive. The sessions cost about $200 but it is worth every penny.

WOW you did EXCELLENT. Stick with your message of doing what YOU are doing and letting her choose what she is doing. You have done EXCELLENT.

I will add that although $200/session seems like a lot of money, remember that this is your marriage and family you are talking about. How much did you spend on your wedding?

I have only ever seen good things about people's experiences with Steve. It is definitely worth the call.

Ha! Thanks MelodyLane! I actually beat ya to it! I called the office earlier this morning and spoke to them about a meeting. They are expensive and we are broke, but I can afford one now and will do it.

Question: If I can only do one session right now for financial reasons, should we do a joint session or should I let her talk to Steve individually? My initial thought was an individual session might seem like a pressure or that I put this guy up to it... or something like that. Thoughts?

He won't coach you together. They usually split the sessions between a couple, ie: 30 minutes for you and then 30 minutes for her. Typically, Steve will devote the full first session to the BS to get a full assessment of the situation and then he will ask to speak to the other spouse and get her perspective.

I would just ask them how you should do it.

Ellie said he would do it either way. Either as a conference call with my wife and I together or either one of us alone. Right now, I can afford only one session, so I want to make sure I get the maximum impact and effect.

Thanks for the encouragement Scotland. I am hoping the meeting can help provide some perspective and stability to a very sensitive situation.

hmmm, does Ellie know the situation? See, they don't believe in coaching couples in conflict together because it is so destructive. I guess if you can get her to participate and then explain the situation, Steve would ask you each to explain your perspective ALONE while the other one gets off the phone. I would be very surprised if he let you both stay online at the same time.

Yeah, there was a misunderstanding there. She may have meant for the initial part of the call or maybe to split the session entirely...but from my experience (and two other people I know IRL) Steve always talks to each spouse alone after the intial greeting...

Tuesday Update:

Meeting with Steve later this week. It may be our only counseling session before Armageddon, so thoughts, good vibes and prayers are always appreciated! Things seem bleak, but I have to still have a measure of hope.

Keylogger has not revealed any current affair. But keylogger has revealed both my mom and my sister dissing me and encouraging my wife to bolt. MY OWN BIOLOGICAL MOTHER! I read an email from her this morning that rocked my world. If you've seen the movie, think of the Hillary Swank's mother in Million Dollar Baby... that's what I'm facing. I am so crushed by this it is hard to describe.

I had told my wife a week ago "I feel like my mom and sister are very negative towards me and I hope they are not encouraging you walking out" My wife's response at that time: "Don't be ridiculous! Your paranoid! Nothing is farther from the truth" Now I know my instincts were telling me something and i was being gaslighted yet again!

My mother divorced my dad for an affair in the 1970's and lived our entire childhood going from guy to guy... very uninvolved and disconnected from our lives. She was never very close with my wife UNTIL AFTER MY WIFE'S AFFAIR, when I guess my wife unofficially joined the Wayward Spouse Club. My mom and I have since then had a cordial relationship. No fights... we talk on the phone about once a month and see each other several times a year and that's fine with me. She never visits her grandkids, doesn't watch them, invite them over or go to their school functions (she lives 20 mins away, has money and is not elderly) Over the years, my wife and I have come to accept that my mom will never change or be emotionally supportive-- we've accepted that this is basically a selfish person.

But even so, it is STILL beyond painful to read my mother tearing me to shreds with such venom. My own flesh and blood mother. I wish to God I had actually discovered a new affair with the keylogger rather than this revelation. (Btw, my mom is most infuriated with my stand to not "cooperate with the dismantling of the family" and to not assist my wife in her decision to walk away. She finds this dangerous lunacy on my part and is encouraging my wife to get a lawyer to oust ME instead. Heh heh.

Drama.

Again, pray for our meeting on Thursday and that reason, cool heads and a loving, restorative plan of action will find fertile soil in my wife's mind.

Time to dis-own your mother and sister.
You don't have to "officially" make the announcement.
However, you are now and forever "unavailable" for parties, holidays, etc.

"Sorry. I can't make it." (each and every time)


UNLESS, they own up to their betrayal of you via a sincere confession.
Toxic people must not be part of your life.
Even blood relatives.

Is your Dad alive?

Yeah. I wouldn't call him "toxic" like my mother and sister, but he's definitely a self-absorbed person who's never been a part of my life or my family. He's older and a bit of a hermit at this stage of his life. He has always preferred isolation.

TW, maybe I missed it, but how did your DDay in 2007 happen? What did you guys do to repair/restore your marriage from THAT time? It's been less than 3 years since her last affair and she's at it again, or at least trolling for OM#2?

Is there any possibility that her 1st A never really ended or that contact has resumed? Do your families know about her first A?