OK guys I here what you are saying.

This is just so frustrating right now. I am just getting diffferent opinion from Steve H, to you guys on the message boards and to be honest I agree with you guys more.

I do not struggle setting boundaries with other loved ones, why do I struggle so much with my H?

Really the question I need to ask him, if does he want to work on our marriage or am I wasting my time trying to do this? As if he says he does not want to work on the marriage then, i cannot get upset if he stays out the night, or goes off with OW as he doesn't want to be in this marriage with me. I need to know though either way.

I would appreciate your opinions.

I am hesitant to say much more because of my WW status, but I have a really hard time believing that SteveH is advising you to sit idly by and do nothing while your H DATES. VETS WHERE ARE YOU?

You seem like you are at the end of your rope, so let me ask you this: do you have anything set up in the next week that you are looking forward to? If not, please set something up -- go to a concert Friday night with a friend, plan a shopping date or pedicure with someone on Saturday, treat yourself to a book you have been wanting to read and pack a picnic and take yourself to a park on Sunday. Treat yourself and give yourself something to look forward to.

I understand constant, unrelieved, obsessive anxiety. You need a break from it. This is what I mean by "self care".

Hitch,

Actually I don't think our advise is inconsistant with what Steve H is saying. You said

Hitch see the part I put into bold??? Telling your H that you are upset and why is enforcing your boundaries, by first telling what you are upset about (your boundary) and then telling him that it upsets you because...?

You cannot make your H enforce his boundaries or yours. That is his job.

Meanwhile you can learn more about yours, you can learn more about your core beliefs, and you can learn and master more and more effective strategies for enforcing your boundaries.

Steve H has offered you a way to start enforcing your boundaries. Further, he knows that your H probably feels very much like you felt during your A, he doesn't care. You did not either, but you came around and now think you would like to have a good marriage with him. You changed, Saddest is changing what makes you think your H won't change?

Steve H knows your H can change for the better if given the time and the proper incentive. What Steve H is doing is giving your guidance into enforcing your boundaries one step at a time while giving your marriage a chance at recovery and a better marriage. He is showing you how to model a better marriage.

Whether your H will decide to join your efforts remains to be seen, but eventually the data will be very clear. It is not right now.

This stuff takes time and patience, and that means you must have patience with yourself as well as your H. When you get frustrated I have recommended for years that your mantra should be... T&P, T&P, T&P.

Now repeat after me: T&P, T&P, T&P

Don't you feel better now?

Hang in there girl.

JL

Ofcourse I feel better now

I see where your coming from. I consider myself reasonably intelligent so why am I so useless at marriage and setting boundaries.

At school there should be classes on life skills, and there should be a legal req to have pre marriage guidance !!

Time & patience.......

H did not come last night, just received text

'i am on my way home from London so you can kick out fancy man and clean up after wild parties'

T and p, time and p, time and p....

I think out of all the posts I have had on the thread, this one JL is the most profound. I feel like I am having some kind of ephiphany today, and I 'get it'. I only wish that I had learnt this before the affair, so I was able to have a better chance of building a good marriage. However, I am where I am.

I feel this kind of new excitement inside me, almost learning about life and love and how it works and what I need out of life.

My H came home this morning, and I let him know in a non confrontational way, that I was upset that didn't let me know he was staying out last night, and I got an apology! This is quite significant as he probably only apologised about 3 times during the whole relationship. Now I see this is because I did not know how to communicate properly about my feelings. Then we laughed and joked and he was very warm towards me, more so than in a long time. He even rubbed my shoulders.

Then I asked him if he would have another session with Steve. He said that he didn't really get anything out of the last one and wasn't sure where it was going. H also asked what is the point of it, what are they trying to do? I found that difficult to answer but said that it would help us better understand each other and how we could have had a better marriage. H then responded by saying I know this sounds awful Hitch, but I didn't do anything wrong so what is there for me to learn, I did everything right, I gave everything to you, I was always fair and let you do what you wanted when you wanted, and that he gave me too much rope and that I hung myself.

However, I now understand what place my H is in. I have spent many hours trying to figure this out! He has lost all hope in the marriage, he doesn't want to lose me but he doesn't know or have proof that things can work. He doesn't really understand what it takes to make a marriage work, and that by 'allowing me to do what i want' is not enough to sustain a marriage (I am still learning what makes a good marriage too). I am hoping that with time and patience and working with Steve, some of these concepts can be explained to us both. Then ofcourse H can do with that knowledge what he wants.

Sometimes I do feel guilt for putting him through all this, not only the affair but 'marriage boot camp', he is quite a simple guy and not very good at looking at himself and seeing any imperfections or making changes (blame his mother, he could murder someone and she would say thats ok). Don't 2x4 me on that one, I am having a bit of humour here, helps keep me sane.

In the meantime, I have booked myself a massage treat tomorrow night, I am out with girlfriends having dinner on Sat night, I am going to spend some time with my wonderful mother on Saturday at the shops.

My new mantra is "chill baby".

One more question, how come some people just know all this stuff? How come some couples 'just work'?

Over and out, Hitch.

Oh Boy!,

I only have 20 minutes so I am going to type very fast and make lots of mistakes as I usually do.

First, your H needs to talk to Steve H because your H said

Letting you hang yourself is NOT being a good H.
Giving you everything is not a good H.
Letting you do what you wanted wasn't being fair to YOU or to him.

All or any of these action do not make a good marriage or even a good friendship.

In short, he needs to know as much as you do about what makes a good marriage and what his role and your role in a good marriage should be. He was just a passive bystander in this marriage if he really did do the things he did/didn't.

Print this out. You are responsible for your decision to have that affair, BUT he and you are responsible for the state of the marriage before, now, and in the future and he needs to be an active part of the marriage as do you.

Please think about this. You might want to let him read your book on boundaries as well. He clearly allowed you to cross a few of his, even if he doesn't know what they are or should be.

God Bless,

JL

Update:

I have spent a couple of days looking after myself and feel so much calmer and clearer.

Have been thinking about my boundaries a lot and it really does make an awful lot of sense. I remember feeling pre A, that I was worn out trying to please people (friends, husband & family) and one of the reasons I had for the A, was I deserved it, and that it was my time to have my needs met. Awful I know.

I have always valued myself as a person, and couldn't understand why others operated not in the same way and was terrily frustrated. In the past I did try to enforce boundaries, but felt terribly guilty for doing so. Now I understand that if I communicate my boundary, that I am not responsible for how the other person reacts. This is a big thing for me, I use to take such a lot of guilt on board. No relationship will work if it is one sided.

I have spent a little more time on my boundaries and would appreciate any feedback;

1. I will treat people with respect at all times, and will not tolerate disrespect from others.
2. I will be compassionate with others.
3. I will be honest with myself and therefore I expect honesty from those I deal with
4. I will value and cherish my loved ones.
5. I will be responsibile for my own health, happiness and wellbeing.

H is booked in to see Steve on Monday. Even though he thinks he knows what makes a good marriage, I will remain postive that he will be open to learning. Although, he made a comment last night that he 'hates learning' (I think he is trying to be rebellious here) and I responded saying, 'oh I am absolutely love learning'. He always said how much he hates my 'self help' books that I buy! I think he sees it as a weakness if he admits that he is less than perfect.

Oh, and another note I am putting effort into my life and creating a happy one instead of being reliant on H. I am signing up for an evening course for the Winter, I have signed up on a 'meet new friends' website to expand my social circle, and have a weekend away booked with 4 of my girlfriends.

Massively awful ... but human. Have you read the article on the Giver & Taker? If not:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_give.html


I get the guilt. I think I should be all things to all people at all times. But I ain't that special -- nobody is. At the same time, I don't feel like I am sufficiently valuable to protect. Those two feelings co-existing can be a bit schizophrenic.

Tell the voice that is seeking to undermine you to shut up -- and I mean that literally. I named mine Paul -- he is the color commentator who sits on my shoulder and points out all my screw ups, and if Paul doesn't have anything current to work with, he will go back to middle school if need be. Paul is cruel and relentless. So I literally tell him to "shut up you bast@#%. Can't you see she's doing the best she can?"

Get ready for some push back on the boundaries. Everyone is comfortable with boundary free Hitch -- you will get some "change back" messages, some subtle, some not so subtle.

There are a million self help books out there, but the one I have read over and over is "The Dance of Anger." I read it first in connection with my toxic mother, but when I re-read it recently I was able to see how I have replicated that relationship with my H.


This hit me in the face -- HUGE. For years, I have been throwing my shoulders back and putting a smile on my face -- the only coping strategy I know -- and haven't told my H when I was hurt, mad, frustrated or needed anything from him, and he walked right over me because, hello? that is what you do to doormats.

I have been protecting him from any expectations and my negative feelings because the poor dear can't handle them, and patting myself on the back for being so noble and collecting resentment chits like mad.

The reality is that I have been treating him like a child. He doesn't know how I'm feeling so he can't modify his conduct to make me happy, and YEA! I get more resentment chits!

See how well that worked out?


I suspect if you put him under the bright lights your H would admit that he is pleased that you are putting so much effort and energy into mending your M.


I'm very pleased for you. Try to POJA that stuff or at least run it by him as far in advance as possible (hard to POJA in your situation I would think) so you are comfortable that you have given H an opportunity to give his input. Then those activities will be joyful and fulfilling and not infected with the ever present guilt virus.

I'm not going to comment on your boundaries as I am clearly not qualified.... maybe some day you and I can be the boundary gurus on MB and give JL a break.

I found the icons!

Hi SW

Great post!! You are a 2x4 warrior!!

I am so patient right now its untrue. I came home tonight after having a bottle of wine with a girlfriend and my H is in the bedroom next door, it took all my strength not to lunge into his room and give him the biggest hug ever. I miss him

SW - Do you live in the US?

Hitch x

I live in Texas. I think that's still part of the US but I haven't watched the news in a couple of days.

You are from the UK, right? You may be picking up on some of my English English. Our (former?) best friends of many years are from London.

Good for you on the patience thing! And that you WANT to hug your H is tremendous! That he was actually home for you to want to hug him is even better!

BTW, my color commentating friend "Paul" told me the A was fine, that I was entitled to some happiness after all these years and that it really wasn't hurting anyone. Paul is no dummy. Paul knows a self destructive act when he sees one. I am making a list of Truths that I am gleaning from this experience, and one is that acting in contravention of my moral code is an act of self hatred.

Paul is two faced though -- he is now telling me I am irredeemable. I think of every act of amends as a "shut up" to him.

I love metaphors. Actually, I need metaphors. Metaphors make whatever the subject is concrete.

If you think I 2x4d you, you clearly haven't been 2x4d. And where is THAT icon anyway?

You are doing good, but be mindful -- it is a serious roller coaster, and you H is taking you on the ride. You may wake up tomorrow in a fury, or in despair, or paralytic depression, or wildly in love for no particular good reason that you can pinpoint. Your feelings are telling you something but it doesn't mean you have to actually DO anything about them (that is actually also on my list of Truths).

Let yourself feel it (huge for me), take the time to sort it out, and then post. Or post and let the folks on this forum help you sort it out. They will see stuff you can't see -- it's feels kind of creepy sometimes actually. But with their help, a process that would have taken me months to cycle through with untold additional damage to my family has been truncated.

I'm learning a lot from you. I just wish I was 35......

JL where are you?

Update

H just had 2nd session with Steve Harley. I got home from work after the session and usually it is me asking H how it went, but something has obviously stirred him up as he came to talk to me right away.

Steve asked H the question, whose responsibility is it for W to be in love with H? Steve said it is H responsibility, well basically by the sounds of it my H disagreed with Steve and said that it is both of our responsibility. Not good. My H seemed quite distressed after the session and very wound up. Then Steve started to talk to him about the affair and they were talking about how women having affairs is more likely to be about mental stimulation rather than just physical, at this point when my H was telling me the story he got very upset and said is that supposed to make me feel better? Then broke down crying. God another painful reminder of how much I hurt him, I told my H that it was not his fault and it was my lack of boundaries and morals, and again how sorry I was for causing him this pain. I also told my H that when I had the affair, I gave him a card to end the marriage. He said all the session has made him feel is worse, not better and he thought Steve was suppose to try and help us.

Not sure what to think now. Part of me feels that I am just prolonging my H pain, not only have I made him go through the pain of the affair, I am now asking him to change his behaviour so we can have a good marriage. I just think it may be all too much for him, and he is better off with someone who 1. doesn't cheat, and 2. is happy with a marriage not based on MB principles, he can go off play golf until he wants and work all hours, and he won't have anyone asking him for more.

I am not angry with him for this, but maybe it is better to let him go than go through all of this. On the other hand I had a massive surge of love for him for at least attempting to try and work through this.

Give it time. Your husband likely is coming to grips with the fact that the laissez faire approach he used in the past is not effective.

It's a fine line because while he is not responsible for your choice to have an affair, he is responsible for a portion of the environment that was ripe for you to make that choice.

Even if your marriage is not saved, if he adopts the MB program, he will be a better spouse and likely have a better marriage in the future. So even if he is unsure about saving this marriage, you might suggest that the MB information is useful should he choose to divorce you and remarry another later.

Don't get into DJ's as you do in your 3rd paragraph. Until you get to the other side of this, you don't know if it will be too much or not.

You can't hold on to him, so there is no letting go or not. If he wants the marriage, he'll stay, if not he'll go. Same for you. Neither of you is holding the other against their will. If he files for divorce, give him the divorce, agree to his terms and let him go if you don't want to hold him against his will. If he doesn't and you are still pleased to be with him, then work your side of MB to make the marriage as good as possible. If you no longer want to be with him, divorce him, give him generous terms since you are the one wishing to end the marriage, and call it a day.

No reason for drama. Stay if you want to stay, go if you want to go, and allow him the same freedom.

Hitch,

I repeat

Steve H is not there to make him feel good. Steve H is there to make him think. Your H is having a hard time with the concept that he is not perfect.

Hitch, he was crying because you hurt him, and he is beginning to see that he was not such a great H. The affair was not his fault. BUT...

He needs to understand that what is going on is NOT about the affair. YOU need to understand that what is going on is NOT about the affair. What is going on is that you two youngsters need to learn how to live and love. You need to learn how to communicate. You need to learn how to talk with yourselves and receive feedback from one another.

Steve H is laying the ground work for both of you to have a great marriage. Growth is painful. Your H isn't being asked to learn and neither are you really. You both are being asked to grow and see life in a broader context so that you can enjoy it more and help one another more.

My daughter got married this weekend and in my toast I suggested ways for them to have a long and good marriage. Guess where those ideas came from?

You are going to have to learn those ways so that you two can grow. Your H needs your support but he is also needs to know what you need and what your boundaries are.

Hitch, you messed up. You will always remember that and so will he. The real issue however is what have you each learned and how will you grow with this new knowledge? He needs your support but you MUST stand up for yourself and this marriage.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Hello JL

Congrats on your daughters wedding, I imagine you made a fine speech, one that she would be proud of.

I really feel as though I am learning and growing as part of this process, at the very minimum I am reading and thinking lots. I will also support my husband, where I can, and hope that he will grow from this too, his choice though.

The boundary thing has really got to me. I am nearly finished on the book, I am on the chapter, applying boundaries to self. However, the book has got me thinking about a lot of situations in the past and present, and how boundaries applied.

For instance, when things started to go sour with my H and I, my mum and step dad told my H that I am very 'complex' almost like I had 'issues'. I am feeling very mad about this reading the book, and I am starting to face the truth of other things in my life. When I was 6 my mum remarried, I never 'got on' with my step dad he never made any effort to build a relationship with me or my siblings, he 'shooed' us out the way, I was told that I should be grateful to him for giving us a roof over our heads, and also on a couple of occasions he smacked me.

Reading the boundary book, I feel as though my boundaries were violated, and am angry that my mum tried to pass the blame onto me for the lack of relationship with my step dad (I have 2 sisters and 1 brother and none of us have a relationship with him). I feel labelling me 'complex' is a way of shifting the blame. I feel in one way that the way I was treated at a child, but in another way, angry at my mother for not protecting me and shifting the blame to me rather than looking closer to home.

I hate to be dredging all this stuff up, but in some way it has freed me from thinking I was a complex, difficult child, but in another way, why does my mother allow me to think I am to blame?

Sorry to divert off the subject, but I guess some of this stuff will impact other parts of your life too.

I need to drop a note to Steve about next steps, and where H and I go from here.

Hitch,



Actually are fully on point here. Let me tell you what I think and sense and then you tell me if I get close. I will say to you that reflecting back is a good thing IF... you learn from it. There is no sense in being mad or blaming people. It is you job to learn from your life and use this knowledge to do a better job.

I will say that your step Dad, may have been old school. Work, bring home the check, and since you and your siblings were NOT his children stay emotionally away and leave this to your mother. It is not an easy situation and he probably never realized you were looking to him to replace your Dad emotionally. Men often don't pick that up, and frankly in earlier years they kept their distance...especially from female step children. Just a thought for you.

But, what is it I am telling you? I am telling you that perspective is very important and you don't know his.

This is important for your marriage as well.

And do you think they had the vocabulary to state things more accurately??? Think about how much you and yes even your H have changed your vocabulary concerning marriage and relationships just in the time you have been here??? The term "issues" is often used when people don't understand what is really going on. I would suggest you not worry about this too much.

I will say that you were unlikely to be able to defend your boundaries when you were young or in the situation you were in.
Why? Because it takes years for your boundaries/morals/sense of right and wrong to develop. It is part of becoming a grownup that you can define your boundaries and then develop strategies to protect them. You expect too much from yourself to soon.

I must go right now but reread your post and really think about this. What have you learned from your retrospective look at the past? What positive lessons can you take from your life experience?


God Bless,

JL

OK, as a step dad, I have another view on this. Your mother brought him into your family. You guys are/were an already established unit. Therefore, YOU (meaning you and your mother) were the ones who needed to welcome him into your existing family unit.

I don't think it's realistic to expect him to make the first moves when it comes to integrating and having a relationship. After all, the job of a step father is a sort of no-man's land, with very little opportunity for success for him.

He's not your father, and he's not a friend. He's a step father. If he's unhappy with how things are going (such as you not expressing the gratitude he indicated he needed) he has little recourse since he's not your father. If he is too strict, then he runs the risk of alienating both his wife and you. If he's too soft, he won't be respected.

He cannot burst into the life of a child, especially if that child is not his. The mother AND the child have to encourage him, no, WELCOME him into their lives.

If the child doesn't welcome the step-father into her life, it's hard to blame him for not being a part of her life.

I'm not saying you did this. But what I'm reading is about his failure, not about how you actively welcomed him into your life, or asked your mother how you could have a better relationship with him, etc.

The bio family has to take the initiative to welcome the step-parent into their existing unit. If that's not done, it's certainly not fair to blame the step parent from remaining outside when he's never asked in.

Hitch,

Enlightened just gave you a very different and valid perspective on your step-dad. None of us may be correct, but I think you need to gain perspective on this issue. It will help you to do so.

One other thing I picked up in your thread, is that of expectations. You as a child had expectations. As an adult you have expectations. But, expectations often lead to resentment, and as I said before

Children always have expectations because they don't know a lot about people and themselves, which is why you see kids with their "feelings hurt" all of the time. As an adult, you need to replace expectations with boundaries and a perspective that allows you to see people as they are: often flawed, and often well intentioned.

Flawed people are often the most amazing people Hitch.

Let me tell you a story that I have told here many times.

When I was a kid my Dad was my hero. He was a military pilot. He was at Pearl Harbor when it was attacted, and fought in WWII for 3 years in New Guinea. He was in Korea, Vietnam. He was highly decorated AND he was my Dad.

He grew up during the depression and was a tough, tough man. His biggest fear as a father was that he would spoil us. And he believed that his job was to train us (my siblings and I) to succeed, not be friends with us. If that gives you a clue.

Well as I got older, and I was in the military, I came to know my father in a new light. I met many of his buddies, played golf with them. Surprise he was not perfect. In fact, surprise he was more accutely aware of his flaws or preceived flaws than anyone. But, here is what I want to convey to you.

As I developed the perspective that only an adult can have, he became even more of a hero for me. Why? I understood his rearing, the limited opportunities, his passion for flying, the fact that as he said he was always afraid, but did the job anyway. The fact that he always regreted having to kill so many people during the wars. Despite all of this he was a very successful man. He taught us to overcome our failings.

Hitch, you are not perfect, your H isn't perfect, but what counts in the long run is how you handle your imperfections. It doesn't happen via expectations of what should have happened. It comes from learning from what happened.

This is what Harley's approach to marriage is about. Flawed people doing their best to learn how to focus on what is important and learning to treat their imperfect spouses with the care, kindness, and love that they need but may fall short of earning. If you and your H will come to see this and then do it, your marriage will be something you both are very proud of.

Are you starting to see why I was chirping about his "giving you enough rope to hang yourself?" That is not what a good husband does and what you did with that rope is not what a good W does.

I look forward to hearing from you and your thoughts on Enlighened's post.

JL

Enlightened

It is great to have a view from another Step Dad, thank you. Listening what you have to say is very insightful and helps me to see things from my Step Dads perspective. I hear what you are saying it must be incredibly difficult for a Step parent to integrate into an existing family unit and know how to behave/act with a step child. They must be made to feel welcome.

My Step Dad seems to put a limited effort into a relationship with his own 2 children. They are not particularly close, they see each other twice a year. However, I am sure there is another side to my step dads story here.

There is also an adult and child in this relationship and all I do think is, my Step Dad was the adult and I was the child and I believe that there is a certain amount of responsibility of him to take the initiative and put some effort into a relationship with his step child (rather than no effort). You know little things like play a board game, or whatever, I don't know! I think he is quite old school though, children should be seen and not heard. Again, looking back it must have been very difficult for him and I think I was expecting something, I was 8 at the time and this was throughout my teenage years.

My sisters, brothers and I have a great relationship with our step mother as there is a feeling that she wants to join in be a part of us, and get to know us and ofcourse we want to get to know her too. I think I am lucky with both my step mum and dad really, they are good people.

Anyway, I have an ok relationship with my Step Dad now, and as long as my mum is happy then I am happy too. I am always polite and make conversation and ask him about his life (he doesn't ask me anything, it is one way). Again, expectations!!

I guess what I have learnt from this is it is very much about communication and not expecting others to behave in a certain way, also to gain some perspective, no one is perfect, give the guy a break!

JL

Yes that has helped gain perspective on the situation and that was why I posted it really. I am not hung up about my Step Dad relationship, its just something when I was reading my boundary book that cropped up, and wanted to get some answers. One thing that is key, I am not a child anymore and having expectations, is key to resentment, I need to let things go a little, I can't control people I can just be the best I can be living by my boundaries. Phew I just felt a massive weight lift off my shoulders!!!!!!!

On another note, this boundary book gets you thinking, I kind of fell into my job as an IT Manager and sat in a meeting yesterday and felt like a ton of bricks hit me thinking is this really me? Am i really fulfilled in this job? Am I passionate about what I do? Not doing anything radical but have signed up for an Interior Design course starting in Sept, which I have a passionate interest in. Baby steps?

Update on H is that he has not stayed out since I communicated my boundary to him, about feeling upset and worried if he does not come home. I would like to have another chat with him about his session with Steve, but want to give it a few days to let things settle as he was quite 'ruffled' after Mondays chat. I do feel massive amounts of love for him at the moment, and pain and guilt for distress I caused him.

Had horrible dream about being in a room with all of his family and none of them would speak to me, something to address later down the road maybe.

Thanks again, Enlighten and JL.

Hitch