I thought those who read my update on "Things have changed or haven't they?" should know that I was wrong in the optimistic outlook I had then. I was wrong in thinking H wouldn't dare access porn sites from his parents' computer.

Every day, he spends a couple of hours in here saying he needs to study, which is true because he will be tested for promotion soon. My gut feeling proved right, though, as I felt he did more than study - especially after he came to bed at 5:30 in the morning after having spent the night on the computer. I "caught" him today when I came in here to ask him to come down to join the kids and me after he'd spent all afternoon here. He didn't hear me come and couldn't click fast enough to make the porn sites disappear.

All he had to say is the same old story of how he's tired of me snooping on him, how it's a natural thing for a man and how it's all my fault as I'm "not doing anything for him". I didn't say much except pointing out, again, that he had done porn even when we were madly in love and thus often in bed together and that my libido went sub zero with my finding out about the porn, his promise to stop but then him hiding and lying. He asked me if I'd had married him if I had known about his continued porn use, and I told him that maybe not.

Well, this decision is not to be made now anymore, we have to deal with the situation at hand.

I just don't know how. All the trust I ever had in him and to agreements that we made is gone. The loss of trust has expanded beyond the porn issue into the rest of our life. Right now, I don't feel much but numb and resentful.

Oh, and he mentioned as a condition for him to stop porn I'd have to stop coming here. He acted as if he'd suggested that before, which he didn't, and even if so, I wouldn't be able to trust him.

A while ago, after a very nasty AO of his, I asked him for some sign, a symbol that he was seriously committed to working on our M. I never received anything, and I when I asked him again, he said he had no idea what I wanted. He did ask for a clue, though, and I told he could maybe write me a letter.
That was 3 days ago. He pretends he needs time by himself to write such a letter. He does have this time for himself, several hours a day. He just prefers to spend it on porn sites.

Right now, I feel so resentful that I can barely look at him. Which, of course, is not a great situation when you're staying at your in-laws. Let alone the kids, who are obviously troubled already by our move, the long travel to get here and the disruption of their schedule.

Any ideas, anyone?

I hope I'm wrong on this.

Your husband appears to be attempting to cut you off from any emotional support for standing your ground on this.

When I have seen this with other women, it has been motivated by the intention to NOT stop using and abusing, but to limit the woman's confidence that she can live without the abuser.

Until enforcable boundaries are established, if he tries to continue to limit your ability to be indepedent of his disease, you have your answer as to what he's really trying to do.

GLB,

so sorry to hear this. i can imagine how "stuck " you must feel right now.
i wish i had some advice to offer......but, i feel as numb as you right now. i had high hopes for the 2 of you.
why can't your husband see that you care about him and you are trying to make your marriage and sex life better for both of you.

if i were you i think i'd feel sick to death of trying to muster up energy to work on my marriage or my sex life w/ a man who refused to look at himself in the mirror and admit that he's giving up real live companionship for pornography?
that he keeps buying into the lines they feed him,
it's his rite?
all guys do it?
it's your wifes problem, not yours? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

he still continues to blame you verbally for not being able to fulfill him???
how sad is that?

and he compares this site to his porn??
i am afraid he does have a real problem after all.
i was hoping it was more casual and if the 2 of you could start opening up to each other and you both realize that being w/ a warm, loving person who cares about you is no comparrison for a picture and your own hand??
but, he's shut you out again.

tell him he can have it. don't ask him to make any more promises he can't keep...or has no intentions of ever really trying to.....tell to to enjoy it.
he knows how you feel about it.
if he still chooses it over and over again and continues to make it your fault! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
he is behaving like a big coward.....lying and taking no responsibility into looking further into himself.
it's up to him now.

<small>[ January 20, 2004, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

Do his parents know what their son is using their PC for?

aaa

Addiction????

No, his parents don't know, and I'm not going to tell them them as I'm stuck here at their house with everybody for another week. I'd have to suffer any consequences without having any place to go.

What my H sees in me right now is that I'm a prude who doesn't want to fulfill any of his needs whatsoever, and that I want to control him. As he sees it, he HAS to get what he NEEDS online as I'm just so unrealistic that I won't give him what he wants.

In a softer mood, he did say he might have problems with "the internet" and if I want, he'll stop. I told him that if he thinks he does have a problem he needs to get help because a spouse is the worst therapist. And I said I'm not going to tell him to stop as this will only backfire in causing resentment in him and feed his accusations against me trying to control him.
Last night, he was on the net for several hours again, telling me later that I didn't ask him to stop. I guess he figured that gave him free reign.

So you don't think it would be a fair deal for us for me to give up MB and him giving up porn? My gut tells me it isn't as I come here for support and for help to better our M which I can't see he's going to porn sites for.


nelly, I was hoping it was more of a habit than an addiction but I'm really not so sure anymore.
I tell him not to mke any promises at this point because I'm worn out from desperately wanting to believe him just to be disappointed again. It's so exhausting.

Thanks for your support!

Hon, I've actually had the excuse of looking for better ways to have SF thrown at me... yuck! thank heaven, it's been a very long time since I heard that one.

No, it's not an even trade. Think of it from his taker's POV (which is the one addicted to porn): He wants the best of both worlds - wants the porn because he doesn't have to work to please a woman - she's pleased to have him "look"! And he still wants a flesh and blood woman to be on the string. He doesn't want to be nagged or badgered about giving up the paper dolls. And to ensure he doesn't lose anything, he isolates the flesh and blood woman from having access to support, knowledge, experience that would strengthen her ability to not put up with his cake-eating addiction.

Bottom line, he wants no leverage on him that would make him choose one or the other. He wants both, and his taker is so large and in charge that he gives absolutely nothing and will not unless he's forced to in order to preserve what ever he wants most.

I have often felt that in cases such as this the porn is analogous to infidelity. So, I suggest Plan & Plan B

Here is a brief write up (not mine, just cut & paste) substitute 'porn' for 'affair' and see what you think.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plan A as Harley meant it to be...

Plan A is not (repeat NOT) about making the WS happy, or feeling good.

Plan A is NOT, contrary to popular (and very incorrect opinion), about "making yourself a better person," or "working on yourself."

Plan A is ALL ABOUT the straying spouse. In Willard Harely's ever brilliant words, Plan A is a stategy to end the affair and to entice the straying spouse to reconsider the marriage.

So, it has several elements that should be done at the same time.

First is to eliminate LBers and to meet needs as best you can... recognizing that the unfaithful mate may not allow the betrayed partner to meet needs.

Second is to CONFRONT the unfaithful partner with what you know. Doing so (of course) in a way that is respectful and about you... how you feel, how you are affected by the affair.

Third is to expose the affair to the scrutiny of the world. The lover's spouse or s/o, coworkers, family, friends, church family, children, etc.

ALL OF THAT is Plan A. And it should be done as much as possible simultaneously. (If you don't believe me call the radio show Mondays and Thursdays at 1pm Central Time and ask Dr. Harley for yourself.)

Plan A must have a deadline. It's called Plan "A" because there is a second step... aptly named Plan "B." Willard Harley suggests a max of 6 months for men and 3 months for women before going to the next step. If Plan A hasn't worked in that time, it's not going to. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by GetLoveBack:
<strong>...his parents don't know, and I'm not going to tell them them...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why not tell his parents? Expose this to the harsh light of truth.

going to his parents and telling them he looks at porn might not go over too well.
it could embarrass him to a point that will cause more damage to the relationship...
depending on their views of it.

or..who knows how the parents will react??
they could act like it's no big deal...all guys do it. wifes should just automatically know and accept that....what's wrong w/ you GLB?

but....
there is no denying that he continues to choose it over working on his maritaland sex problems w/ you. so, it is to the point that is a real threat to your marriage.
maybe you should tell his parents something to that effect.

it must be terribly awkward living in thier house w/ all the tension.

as far as a trade off....give up MB,and I'll give up porn.
sounds too tit for tat. and i wouldn't trust him.
why not say, i,m not going to ask you to give it up because you have proven you won't do that for me. or can't...whichever.....but, if you really want me to give up MB...please explain why and i will be happy to poja it w/ you.

Dear GetLoveBack,

Oh how I can relate!!!! Please write to me as I have traveled the same road you are on. Here is a writing I have found that really captures the feeling.

Meditations on the "Other Woman"
I’ve been thinking about a path lately and I have just figured out what to call this path I’m on. It’s the path to recovery. I’m sure it’s not an easy path, but then the road I’ve been traveling has been rough and tiresome with little reward or hope offered to me. So I’ll start a new journey. My destination: a future with hope.

Your Word says that the truth will set me free. What truths do I know? I need to look at my life in an honest way stop denying the pain on the inside. Can a deep hurt actually set me free? I don’t know, but I’m going to give it a chance. Here is my truth: my husband has a lover. She is more important to him than I am. He had tried (according to his own confession) many times, but as yet is unable to find the strength or motivation to give her up. This lover has lived between us from day one of our marriage. In fact, he had this lover long before he met me. However, I have refused to acknowledge her existence until just yesterday.

I’ve always known she was there, but have denied the truth made her powers less in my mind. I’ve spent my entire married life explaining her away to myself and hiding her very being from all my friends, family and church. The pain I feel from this other woman is very real and has taken its toll on my over the years many, many years.

I could not begin to count the number of nights I have cried myself to sleep while his heart and mind were consumed with thoughts of her. Perhaps his thoughts were of how to keep from wanting her or going to her instead of me, but still her heart was with her, not me. This is the truth. Perhaps there were times when he did not go to her, but she has always been there in his thoughts, keeping him at a distance from me, forbidding me access to his hear, his feelings, his dreams the place of intimacy that a wife so desires with her husband.

I’ve done everything imaginable, at least imaginable to me, to try and get rid of her crying, begging, threatening, being good, understanding, being angry, pouting, conniving, lying. I’ve even thought of killing myself. I’ve tried allowing her in our bed, telling him he can have both of us. None of this has worked. She doesn’t listen to me. She only listens to him. I’ve demanded she be gone from our home, but he brings her home when I am away. I’ve even denied her very reality and said, This is all my imagination. But still his relationship with her goes on and on and on.

I am powerless to change what is not mine to change. And this is another truth, a treasure I will guard and protect. My life has become a whirlwind, a confusion, a roller coaster because of this affair and my constant quest to end it. But only he holds the power over her, not me. This has all be futile energy on my part.

She has magical powers. She is invisible most of the time, carrying on her illicit affairs inside of his heart and mind. She can change the color of her hair, the shape of her body. There is nothing she cannot do for him. Whatever he imagines, she provides. She is perfect in her beauty, never refusing him. But she is deceitfully wicked, stealing his heart, weaving her magical spell, demanding the sacrifice of his hopes and dreams for her love something I never would have required.

In reality she has no substance. She gives nothing in return for her great demands. It’s difficult for me to understand how he can love her. That must be another of her magical powers the ability take all, suck the life out of him, leave him a shell of a man, and somehow he keeps going back to her.

But I have made a choice now. I have chosen a different path. I will no longer follow her down her invisible path to destruction. I am choosing the path to recovery. Yes, it’s a hard road to travel, because to start this journey I must admit to myself that I am powerless to change my husband or his desires for the other woman or her hold on him.

And my most powerful truth the one that sets me free from guilt and denial the initial step to my recovery: my husband is a sexual addict and his lover is pornography and masturbation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by GetLoveBack:
<strong> No, his parents don't know, and I'm not going to tell them them as I'm stuck here at their house with everybody for another week. I'd have to suffer any consequences without having any place to go. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, he gets to have his cake & eat it too? What do you have to lose by exposing his addiction to pornography? A sham of a marriage? I am for marriage. I did not suggest you consider Plan A in an attempt to get you to leave him and end your marriage but to save it.

(a key part of Plan A is exposing the deceit/lies. "... to expose the affair to the scrutiny of the world. The lover's spouse or s/o, coworkers, family, friends, church family, children, etc.") I postulate you can substitute 'porn' for 'affair'.)

GHNL,

You are correct. This addiction must be exposed, but in a respectful and loving way. Just like if he was addicted to drugs or alcohol. I told my H parents and they are behind me 100%. That may not always be the response, but it is worth it to at least try. This sin flourishes in secrecy and darkness just like cancer. Expopse it to the light of day and to people who love him and can offer help and love.

Hm, I might not have the guts to expose the porn use. H sees his family only once a year, if that. Rather less. They saw our kids the first time, and his whole family enjoys having us here. I think I don't have the heart to tell them about his porn use, not to protect my H but their feelings.

ghnl, I know what you're saying about the plans. To be honest, I haven't really read into them because at the time I didn't think I'd need them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . I tried to fulfill his need for SF - maybe like a partial Plan A - but I have to admit I failed. I closed my eyes to his porn use because I was only able to fulfill this EN somewhat as long as I could still tell myself he might not be using porn. But as soon as I found proof of his porn use, I was emotionally unable to have sex with him, let alone make love.

The reasons for my failure have been addressed in almost all threads about porn on this board: Comparing myself physically to the women online, knowing whatever I do won't come close to what they promise to provide, me not being as available as they are (and what real life woman is available 24-7?), feeling betrayed by his lies etc.

So I feel that I can't very well ask H to stop porn as long as I don't "put out". On the other hand, I can't put out as long as he's using porn. I did try to "suck it up", to "get over it", to "get real because it's normal". I tried to replace the women online. Only, I can't. I can't get the thought out of my head that maybe while being with me he's thinking of a women he saw online, that when we don't do it in all kinds of ways he saw online he'll always feel unsatisfied, and , most of all, that he might just continue to use porn no matter what I do. How can I trust him to stop as he always used porn, even in our "steamy" beginnings when we made love often?

I told my H I want to be exclusive for him and it hurts that I'm not. And I don't even want to begin to think about that I never have been exclusive to him as he used porn before we met, while I didn't know yet, and after I found out despite his promise to stop.

Maybe this sounds like a big fat excuse not to try a real Plan A.
A Plan B, on the other hand, would be really drastic, as we're in the process of moving to a new country. A Plan B would mean my H does go to the new country while I stay with the kids at my parents in our old country, my home country.

and how do you feel about staying in your own country?

or plan B in general?

getting away from him and all the "crap" and taking some time for yourself might not be a bad idea.

I would feel safer staying in my own country as I have a support system there and a secure job.

Getting away from the "crap" sounds good, too. From what I understand, a big part of Plan B is to protect my love for H. And it does need protection.

What I might do is go to the new country with H, work with Penny for a certain time - I would trust her to give me advice on that - and if nothing changes, go into Plan B.

GLB,

Check out this link: http://www.ivillage.com/relationships/experts/saver/qas/0,4144,203713_262391,00.html

Also....look at the home page there as well. I think the doctor's advice is very good...and I would advise the same. Face this problem as a team....pornography is very very isolating.

Also here is a cyber-addiction test to help determine if pornography use has crossed the line.

http://www.cybersexualaddiction.com/Tests/Cat.php

Getback,

How do you know his family will react negatively to YOU finding out about HIS addiction??

It doesn't, and I repeat DOESN'T look bad on YOU that HE has an addiction!!!

And how do you know they don't know what's going on???

They might and may think YOU don't know--so not wanting to cause problems between you THEY stay silent--just as your doing--maybe something to consider??

Or maybe they realize you know and don't think it bothers you--because you haven't said anything--

Your not a rock--and you need support--ask them for help--

TR - you had some really good points. Still, I have to admit that I don't have the guts to do that.
I want to give us a chance, too, to get over this phase of being between homes and countries with so much to take care of that it creates additional stress in our M. I would like to give counseling a shot, settle us and the kids in a new house, and have somen kind of schedule again. Though I know that a change of scenery doesn't eliminate our problems, being back to a somewhat normal life might relieve us from some stress.

I figure that I then still have the option to expose his habit/addiction.

I feel like I should work with a professional counsellor for a certain time before i make these big decisions. Does that make sense?

star, I thank you for the links. I'll definately suggest that H take the questionnaire.

Any ideas on how I go about that?

TR - you had some really good points. Still, I have to admit that I don't have the guts to do that.
I want to give us a chance, too, to get over this phase of being between homes and countries with so much to take care of that it creates additional stress in our M. I would like to give counseling a shot, settle us and the kids in a new house, and have somen kind of schedule again. Though I know that a change of scenery doesn't eliminate our problems, being back to a somewhat normal life might relieve us from some stress.

I figure that I then still have the option to expose his habit/addiction.

I feel like I should work with a professional counsellor for a certain time before i make these big decisions. Does that make sense?

star, I thank you for the links. I'll definately suggest that H take the questionnaire.

Any ideas on how I go about that?