She doesn't get to do those things because I am withdrawn. Mostly she gets to listen to me scream into the microphone while playing video games.

She doesn't withhold sex, since I stopped asking.

She knows I am never going to make more money (self-fulfilling prophesy), so she is going to school to qualify for a job so she can earn some of her own.

I think she doesn't feel close because she realizes that I will never be the financial success she expected. She said yesterday that part of why she overspent is that she always expected I would eventually succeed and that my incom would jump up and we could "pay ourselves back" for the debt. Only recently has she realized that I am never going to get there.

I think she no longer feels close because she has accepted that it is never going to happen. She realizes that if she knew at the beginning what she knows now, she would not have married me.

I do not begrudge her time to process these feelings. Everyone here knows how long it took me to accept that our sex life would never be what I hoped, and how long it took me to mourn its loss (to the extent that I am even done with that process). So I am sure she needs time to deal with her feelings of disappointment.

We discussed that once she starts working, she will meet men who can give her what I cannot. And that some of those men will make offers. She said she expects they will, but she isn't interested. I told her to please tell me if she ever feels differently.

We went to S15's parent night at the high school last night. I thought we got along well. Who knows what Mrs. Hold thought. She said I had a creepy look on my face. Another parent said on the way out "Hold looks like he wanted to take that class". I told her I like to appear interested so the teacher is positively disposed to our family. Mrs. Hold said thought I just looked wierd.

But on a positive note, one woman said my hair looked nice. Mrs. Hold agreed that she liked this hair cut, and that another woman had also commented on it favorably to her. I hated the cut on the way out of the barber shop. Shows you what I know as far as what is appealing to women. But you can be sure I will continue to get my hair cut in this style.

So you're still weighing your self worth based on gossip / opinions / approval of others?

Well, that is better than basing it on my view of myself, which is the worst view of all.

Look, we know I am totally messed up in the head. More evidence of that this morning.

Today Mrs. Hold offered to have sex. She actually reached over, jiggled me, and asked in a playful tone if I felt like anything. Long time readers might think "Hold's dream come true". Hardly. I pushed her hand away. Thanked her for offering. Told her that I was serious when I said I don't like myself, I am not happy with my sexual performance, and I am not enthusiastic about having sex while I am so down on myself.

So I turned down what used to be my dream. What do I dream of now? Nothing.

My wife has lost weight, she offered to have sex with my completely on her own with no cues from me that I was interested, she is going back to school (first class tomorrow), intends to get a full time job when she gets her certificate in 2 years. So all of my marital complaints are being addressed. And I am more depressed, negative and hopeless than years ago when all of my requests were being summarily rejected. So if you are asking "are you still a nut case", then my answer is "no, I am not the same nut case I was, I am even MORE of a nut case than before".

Yes. You just punished your wife for trying to meet your needs.

Please tell me you did or intend to do a seriously good job of apologising for that?

Apologize? Why should I apologize? Am I required to enthusiastically agree to her offers just because she offers?

I did not feel like sex today. I wanted to go to services today and then go to work. I would have felt bad about myself if I had given in to my sexual urges and accepted her offer. I would have felt weak and unprincipled. I would have felt spineless.

I understand that if I want her to continue to offer, I should help her feel good about offering. I did thank her today. Are you saying that I need to do more than that?

I can see why you did not want sex at this particular time and it does not have much to do with YOU BEING DYSFUNCTIONAL and DEPRESSED!

BAsically, NOTHING has ever been resolved in your marriage FOR THE LAST 14 YEARS!!! NOTHING!!

I like sex but I would never have sex with a spouse where nothing has been resolved.

YOU TWO HAVE NEVER RESOLVED:

1. Her daily abuse of you for 14 years
2. Her theft of your retirement funds and lying to you about them. ($112K)
3. Her laziness and refusal to work
4. Her pushing you to make more money at work so she could blow that money
5. Her driving 200 miles a day to shop for more unusable junk
6. Her demands for $250K home repairs that she knows you could not pay for
7. Her using her field as an ACCOUNTANT to hide her theft and overspending
8. Her forging your checks
9. Her demands for jewelry, trips, housekeepers, beauty treatments
10. Her opening new credit cards and running them up without telling you
11. her ruining your credit
12. Her ruining your chance at early retirement
13. Her abuse of you affecting your two children, one is fat the other one suicidal
14. Her withholding sex for years and the "rapes".
15, Her bragging about her many one night stands and how great they were
16. Her telling you she liked a very different kind of man than you
17. Her control of you
18. Her meanness toward you
19. Her materialistic attitudes
20. Her lying to her parents about you
21. Her absolute disregard for your feelings, needs, etc.

Hey HOLD, I would be more worried if YOU DID WANT to have sex with such a woman (monster). Until these things all get resolved and you recover from your hurtful marriage you will not want sex with that difficult, unremorseful, mean, selfish, and unapologetic woman.

hold, have you ever considered yourself to be abusive?

Not just to yourself, but to others.

To myself, yes. To others, no. But I assume from the question I appear abusive to you. In what way?

Your W, who has a past of sexual abuse, opened herself up to you and ALL you thought of was YOURSELF. And getting EVEN with her.

You did think vengeful thoughts, didn't you?

"You wouldn't give to me when I asked, so I refuse you! Ha! How's that feel!"

You seem quite hateful and vengeful to me, hold. You won't help your wife heal. She's trying, and you're putting up hurdles to trip her. How terrible of you.

You wouldn't have sex because you didn't feel like it. How about all the times your W didn't feel like it? Did she get a pass from you? ABSOLUTELY NOT. You felt abused.

So you do it back.

And you somehow feel justified, and lifted. amiright?

Wow, this is rich.

I can only imagine the reaction if a man had reached over, jiggled his wife's private parts (ANY OF THEM) saying, "do you feel like anything?"

I'm quite sure HER not being in the mood would not be called ABUSIVE--and certainly SHE would not be told to apologize.

Hold, you weren't in the mood. You had other things on your mind/other plans that you wanted to accomplish.

You can choose to make that a problem, or not. I think almost every time you hate yourself, it's because you are angry and you don't want to deal with it.

I would be angry too! You're not a faucet, that you should suddenly be turned on because TODAY she wants it.

Sheesh! Sure, after all these years you should be grateful enough for any time she wants you that you have to beat yourself up and be called ABUSIVE because you don't want to have sex.

Dr. H talks about how things sometimes actually get harder for the spouse who has been waiting for the other one to invest in marriage once they DO invest in marriage/begin meetings needs.

Normal. not abusive

And besides, I think reaching over, jiggling you and asking "do you feel like anything" isn't very inviting or attractive.

It's callous, even if it's "playful".

It's dismissive.

Sometimes men need to be wooed too.

So all of my marital complaints are being addressed. And I am more depressed, negative and hopeless than years ago when all of my requests were being summarily rejected. So if you are asking "are you still a nut case", then my answer is "no, I am not the same nut case I was, I am even MORE of a nut case than before".

I think it's because as long as she is lacking in meeting your needs, you have someone else to focus and blame your unhappiness on. Once those needs are met, you will have to stop blaming her, and I can see that as somewhat vexing to a person who has become so used to blaming another person for their unhappiness.

As long as you refuse to allow her to meet your needs, you can continue to fool yourself into thinking she's still the same wife she was.

Hold...I think you intend to stay married. I do. Even after your kids are gone. Continuing to blame your wife just won't serve a purpose. Staying will be your choice, and refusing to allow her to meet your needs will also be your choice. Some people take huge issue with ownership. Maintaining withdrawal and grudges is sort of gratifying, and it could even be pleasurable to someone who has come to rely on it for satisfaction.

When there's no longer a reason to be in withdrawal, you're going to be forced to examine your rationale, and I think it is worrying you that you won't be able to justify it forever.

Hold, after the comments your wife made about you date the other night, I would refuse sex too.

Just do not see myself being in the the mood after that.

My guess is that if the date was with anyone else other than your wife, they would have had a good time.
It seems she continually brings past resentments into her judgement, just to knock you off your perch.

I think Soolee and Jack are both right.

This is a big dance / game between me and my wife. She is not blameless or willing to be open either. But I recognize the problem that I am not willing to take responsibility for my life. We can both be at fault. It doesn't have to be only one or the other.

At dinner Thursday several women commented on how nicely I speak to my wife. I am very complimentary to her. They said they never hear those kinds of things from their husbands. Nor from any other men. I said I speak that way to set an example for my daughter, so she knows what to demand in her marriage. The 2 other women said "you are setting her up with false expectations, there are few men who speak that way, and she will have trouble finding one". I said those are the ones she should pick from.

Yesterday morning, Mrs. Hold and I discussed what the other women said at dinner. Mrs. Hold said "that is what they want and don't get in their marriages. You see, everyone has something they want but don't get." I agreed. I went on "I bet a woman who wants that but doesn't get it would find me very intoxicacting." Mrs. Hold agreed. Then I looked at the clock, realized it was time to get moving, and got up to go. That is when she jiggled me.

But Soolee is correct. I don't feel unadulterated joy when Mrs. Hold offers to meet my needs. Because that means I have to clean up my side of the street. And I don't feel capable of doing it.

"We can both be at fault. It doesn't have to be only one or the other."

Hold, this statement makes you one of the most insightful people I've encountered in some time. And I think that your sitch is proof that - regardless of how it make shake our pleasant little notions - not EVERYTHING fits inside a neat little box.

HOLD, how is this board helping you?

O/T

Bubbles, can I just say I appreciate how you have a way of cutting through the crap and, most endearingly, sometimes coloring outside the lines? It means you are YOU. And I like that.....I don't want to live on a Borg ship - haha!

Nothing wrong with what you chose Hold. I call it lost opportunity.

A Husband has the right to ask his Wife for sex.
A Wife has the right to decide yes or no to sex when asked by her Husband.

At the same time,

A Wife has the right to ask her Husband for sex.
A Husband has the right to decide yes or no to sex when asked by his Wife.

You'e detached or withdrawn. This goal of her to finish school and get a job puts some factors in the works to be closer to some decisions from both of you.

I know how it is to decide something for the present that weight heavily towards the needs of the kids.

Ok Hold so I would say most of your marriage issues are resolving themselves and now for sure you have know one to blame for your own issues but yourself. You don't need Marriage Builders you need psycho therapy!!