opt, I'm so glad your kids have you looking out for them, showing them in action, not just words, that they are worth protecting. One more thing, have you read Jennifer's article, Infidelity: The lessons Children Learn? Your kids have been taught by their mom's actions that it's okay for them to be hurt, and be quiet about it. So something else I was honest with my kids about, is that predators will tell them that it's just them, and it's a lie. They prey on countless children. So even if the kids think that they're okay to not tell, in a case where they're not going to have to see a specific person anymore, that it's still important to tell, to protect the other kids in the family and the neighborhood.

{{{{{{{{Opt}}}}}}}}}

I am truly sorry for this. I had no idea. And since you told us, I want to warn you that doesn't help at all. Unfortunately, these things tend to run from generation to generation. So far in my family, we are looking at three generations starting with my mom, to me, and to my DD16. It probably runs further back, but we will never know. So now your kids have another strike against them.

I'm not saying this to be all doom and gloom. Just be vigilant.

Very true, my friend.....

Your a great Dad, Opt. Your kids are very lucky........as are you......

Not

You're absolutely right NED. We've gone over that piece but not that aspect of it. I think that's important because it transfers to many other areas of life.

OM#1 has been shut down. I believe one of the neighbors, who has a 7 yo girl, may have had a little talk with him. Some people don't know better than to [censored] in their own hat. To that end I also made it clear to him he was not to attempt to talk to either of my kids (he responded by shooting a bottle rocket at my house that night; last I saw or heard from him).

I have read that article but it was a while ago and I will revisit it ASAP.

Thanks, New.

Opt

Not, you're entirely too kind and thoughtful. Once again thanks for your concern. I am certainly doing what I can to stop a some genetic/familial patterns, most obviously the drinking piece which was quite prevalent in my upbringing. 8.5 months now, but I don't even think of it. Easily the most important change I ever made in my life.

I don't consider it doom and gloom to point out stats and facts. I actually never thought of sexual abuse as something that goes from generation to generation. What I'm learning about boundaries damaged would suggest that it certainly is and I can understand how the victim, having had their natural sense of boundaries could easily pass that along, and also unknowingly put too few protections in place for their own children. (Just theorizing from what little I know of all this).

I always considered my abuse situation to be like...sexual abuse light, because of the nature and duration of the incident (a few weeks in the summer). However, I suppose SA is SA and plenty damaging no matter what. It's times like these that I wonder how detrimental it really was.

Either way, my folks did the best they could, but I'm far more involved and more protective of my kids (especially D8) than my folks were with us. It shows, too, because my kids are far more well adjusted than I ever was.

Thanks Two. I try. I'm definitely the lucky one; they really are special kids - perceptive, empathetic, intelligent. I couldn't be more blessed.

Thanks again Not.

opt

NotTwoFun, if you're reading, take a breather first. And don't worry, we're all going to be okay.

stbxw has the kids this evening and it seems dinner was planned "for so-and-so's birthday." So-and-so is OM#2's daughter and a very good childhood friend of my DS14 (that part is legit, they hang out at school and stuff). So OM#2's D14 actual birthday party is tomorrow (both kids scheduled to go) - at her Mom's house (OM#2's xw). Evidently a birthday party is not enough.

Around 830 OM#2 and both his kids arrive home (OM#2 lives across the street from me, for those of you just joining in). Clearly, it was one big happy family having pizza together this evening. Once again, my kids are Date Bait.

Personally I could care less who she's with or what shoes she's wearing. My concern, as usual is for the kids.

I would expect every attempt is being made to legitimize and normalize the adultery that has happened thus far. Of course, stbxww and OM most likely feel justified and entitled since they never had sex after all (not that can be proven anyway), they have always been "just friends."

To me it seems like two adults trying to trick 4 kids into thinking that it's okay for a married (granted, separated but still married) woman to hang out with a single (divorced) man. A relationship that is known to have had serious detrimental affect on 2 kids' family is now being thrust in their face.

I've already been advised to limit conversations with stbxw and I think that advice was sound. Does this particular situation call for the same restraint?
How do I address this with my kids, if at all?

I realize this is nothing compared to some of the nasty situations out there - OM raising BS's kids and this type of horror. My situation really makes me feel for those in more extreme circumstances. However, this is my situation and I would like to handle it in a way that is most beneficial to my kids.

Thanks for any advice.

~Optimism

Opt,

Have you thought about selling the house and moving ??????

Seems to me it would help with the drama

SC

Okay, well I had to strike while the iron was hot.

This am after church I had a talk with DD9. I started by asking her how she felt about when mommy hangs around with OM#2. She said she was 'mostly uncomfortable.' I told her that mommy is still married and it is wrong for a married woman to hang around with a single man. I said it wasn't that I didn't want her to love her mom or that mom was a bad person, but that mommy was making a huge mistake. I said since she's still married, there could be a chance we could get back together but that wasn't going to happen while either one of us were dating other people. I went on to tell her it was important for her to understand that mom was breaking the rules, because someday she was going to be married and it is NOT okay for her to have a boyfriend while she's married.
*I didn't mention how hurtful it was, probably because I don't care, but I should have.

Later after DS14's baseball game, I had the same talk with him and added a few age appropriate comments. He, too, is uncomfortable with them hanging around together "especially when we're in [hometown] and other people see them together." I pointed out that this business of everyone being together was a ploy for OM and stbxw to be together and all the kids were being used as date bait. I made it clear that mom and OM#2 are 100% wrong in what they were doing. I didn't leave out the part of how hurtful it is to the other spouse, or how harmful it was for a relationship for a spouse to have an opposite sex friend, and that it leads to adultery. I also made sure to point out that I wasn't saying it was wrong for boys and girls to be friends, but that is wasn't okay for married men and women to have opposite sex friends. I also told him it was okay for him to express his discontent to his mother and that's part of being honest and defining who you are as a person.

I told them both that we can't control other people, but I did not want them to learn the wrong lessons from their mother.

I was careful to watch my tone, and I was quite calm and confident in what I said. I was well received and they both seemed to understand.


Now my only question is: is there anything I can do as far as stbx goes to protect my kids any further? I think it's important for her to know that I am trying to right their moral compass. And, of course, I feel like I should be doing something to remove my kids from the sick, sleazy, vile situation. It's like watching someone take your kids on a walk through a cesspool and telling them the water's perfectly clean.

sad,

Opt

Hey SC! Good to see you man. Thanks for your update on your thread, I was starting to wonder about you.

Not movin'. I'm just starting to get the house the way I want it and I want to enjoy it for a while before I sell.

~O~

If I was in your shoes I would of told the kids the same thing.

Hi Opt

I've just read parts of your thread.

re your kids - I've always had an 'open door' policy with my 2 sons. They know they can talk to me & tell me ANYTHING

And believe me, some of it requires a serious poker face.(especially the girlfriend part!)
My boys are 18 & 21, But it's been this way forever.

My WH left me a week ago to go & live with OW after busting him on a VAR as recommended here.

If you read my thread, you'll see the conversations/comments etc with my boys

Being Threatened Please Help
Dragonfire

I hope it helps

Opt, while I understand your intent was good, you seem to be walking a very fine line here between moral education and putting the children in the middle of this mess.

Whenever one parent critizes another parent, the children of divorce are put in a situation of split loyalties. It matters not whether the criticism is valid. Children love and honor both parents, and when one parent attacks the other, their pulled in two. Adults usually know that hearing criticism and even agreeing with it doesn't mean you aren't honoring the relationship and it doesn't have to affect your love for the parent. But, kids don't see that. They just end up conflicted and stressed.

Exactly why I am trying to be so careful, Gg. Exactly why I chose my words carefully and refrained from attacking (or even criticizing) stbx of anything - she's carrying on an extramarital relationship. Not an accusation, it's a fact.

Perhaps you could offer a suggestion. I feel I have a moral obligation to teach my kids right from wrong. STBXW's parents' certainly did little to illustrate marital (or any other) boundaries to her. I suppose mine weren't very well defined either, otherwise I might have been less likely to engage in adultery myself. In fact, I might have smelled a rat much earlier when stbx started developing all sorts of different "friendships."

I most certainly will not stand by and allow my children to grow up thinking that having boyfriends and girlfriends while married is okay. Someone has to point it out because they are being lead to believe it is completely normal, by their own mother - someone who unfortunately has influence over the development of their moral code.

What if she was leaving half-smoked blunts around the house? In MA it's a misdemeanor, practically legal. Still, nothing I want my kids to grow up thinking is a healthy behavior, or even right. Would I just ignore it, so as not to criticize my stbxw?

opt

Opt,

You did well.....I can TOTALLY understand your concern and care. I won't go into my feelings on your STBWXW, I think I've made that abundantly clear. Though, I've told you before and all along, I think she is definately NOT your typical WW. It's a bit sad for your children and you, but I really see her using every justification under the sun on the why of her actions. If you were to ask her why she is hanging around OM, I bet the farm it would be because YOU don't want her in your life......

YOur talk with the kids was good. I agree that since your WW won't end is stupid behavior they need SOMEONE to point out the wrongs of it.....I do want to point out a couple of things though. It's not a 2x4, but more of a caution for the next time....

next time I would refrain from this comment. While it IS POSSIBLE, its not something you really want, and at this point it really causes a false hope for your DD. Kids already hope and want this and most of what you said probably went right out the door after this. She's likely to hang on to this statement, which could cause her some resentment in the future. I know you didn't mean it the way it sounds, but she's really to young at this point to understand that. Does that make any sense?



....interesting statement you make here......

Wonderful conversation with your DS though....very nicely handled......

Ya know, I don't know what the laws are where you are, but some states let kids at a certain age decide which parent they want to live with...... ....


Now this is WAYYYYYYY outta my legue of knowledge and experience. I would talk to your lawyer about this. I think it boils down to how far your are willing to to take it? Full custody? At this point, you have played this as to get out with the least amount of damages. You've done well. You got a go custody arrangement and excellent CS payments. IF you choose to take it further, you may end up with a less desirable divorce decree. I don't think so and I have my reasonings on that......but it is a possiblity. Also, I would search yourself and make sure your intentions are honorable and not just for getting back at WXW for the pain she has caused. I don't say that to make it seem as if you are, just weight out all the reasonings.

You done well Opt....don't sell yourself short.....

Not

Thanks for your input knot, as usual.
I know exactly what you're saying about possibly misleading my angel daughter about the possibility of us getting back together. I knew it as soon as I said it, and maybe a little before, but I said it anyway. I was thinking it was a way to illustrate to her in more concrete terms that the divorce wasn't final yet. I thought I was teaching her something about how marriage works. But I probably did more to confuse her. Other than that I felt pretty good about the talks. I'll look for an opportunity to talk with DD9 about the likelihood of us getting back together.

Chapter two is that after the birthday party (where stbxwx was again hanging around with the POSom), I found out D8 and stbxwx were up at the beach (by my house). My gut said POS was with them and I got there in time to see both their cars drive away separately.

I got really amped up.

So, I couldn't help myself and went up to stbx's house to have a little chat with her. A chat I intended to have anyway.

As it turns out there were mitigating factors (e.g. SOB's xw was present) but let's face it that made for about 10 hours total for the weekend she was with OM in front of my kids.

I did not restrain myself verbally. There were plenty of DJ's.

Of course stbx pulled out all her very destructive arguing tactics including clouding and distorting the issues, placing blame, reviving old unrelated issues, and being downright nasty. None of that affected me however because I was not fighting for me (anymore), I was fighting for my kids. I kept on task and kept coming back to the concept of:
"I will teach my kids right from wrong and what you are doing is wrong. What you are doing is teaching my kids the wrong lessons about marriage. Spending time with him in front of our children is extremely disrespectful to them." She had a million wayward justifications for her sleazy actions, none of which I was buying and I made that very clear.

When we parted (me telling her to get the f out of my car, lol), I felt like I had made my point, even if I did it in a non-constructive way.

An hour later she called and ultimately said she could eliminate the behavior of spending time with OM while the kids were around. [side-note: Not, at this point she also said exactly what you said she'd say about why she was spending so much time with OM].

She then called today and said she had had a talk with DS14 and found out that he indeed does feel uncomfortable when they spend time together.

So, if nothing else I helped stbx and DS14 to communicate a little better. At best, stbx keeps her word and refrains from developing her disgusting little romance in full view of my children, at least for the next 38 days. At that point it will still be disgusting, but at least it will not be spitting on the sanctity of a marriage (however flawed it might have been).



Not, I'm not going to pursue anything legal. I was asking on a more practical level on how or if to approach stbxww on the subject at hand. I like the arrangement. Maybe someday one or both will want to stay with me more, but when stbxwx has her head out of her azz, she's not a terrible mother. They need a mom/child relationship, and they're both smart enough to know when mom is doing something not worth modeling. She's a very mixed up, lost individual to be sure, but I feel like my integrity will prevail and they will learn the things they need to from me. My arrangement is good - tonight I went over and painted DD's toenails. It's our new thing. We bought all the stuff, and I might say I'm not bad!

And to your point about my intentions, I thank you for bringing that up. I have been monitoring that in myself. I can see the tendency. I will continue to make sure anything I do will be to the benefit of the kids. They're the losers in all this, my job is to make sure they lose as little as possible.

opt

OK, the pedicures with your DD is just plain cool!!! What a lucky girl.

Opt, your love for your children comes through loud and clear and you are no doubt doing your very best to help them through a very lousy situation. You show good insight into trying to look at what you're doing and saying and how it effects/helps your kids...keep up the good work!

Thanks Sid,
I got the idea from someone here. Someone was relating a story about a Dad who actually got a date when his daughter flaunted her nails (that he had painted) to the cute waitress. I assure you my intentions were far less lofty! It's kinda my style to spoil the little angel and previously I love to take her to the nail salon. Then I realized how much nicer it might be to do it myself. It is fun.

Anyway, I appreciate your encouragement. I'm sure I'm making mistakes. But I also am sure I'm trying very hard to do my best for them. I have plenty of making up to do - I'm pretty sure I damaged the lines of communication (especially with my son) from years of AO's, before I understood MB (or what was going on in my M).

Last night DS14 had his little GF over for dinner. First time he's expressed interest in a girl. It became all too clear how important it is for me to bring up a gentleman. He'll be choosing a life partner some day and I want him to have the confidence in himself to understand the mate shouldn't "make him whole" but rather make a fulfilled life even more gratifying.

opt

I have a little update that isn't going to go over very well with Not2Fun.... ( )

I had another go-around with stbxww about the OM#2 issue. She called me at work to report that she was going to the beach and was "pretty sure" OM#2 and his kids would be there, and was that okay?

Somehow I was able to awkwardly convince her not to do that. Then after work I went up there to see how DD9 was fairing in the apparent drama of it all. Of course she was still managing to have the time of her life, even though she wasn't with OM's kids. Imagine that!

Anyway, I got into a pretty elaborate conversation with stbx while DS played. ugh. I knew I was setting myself back in my recovery, but I also felt it was important to make an attempt to have my stbxWw to understand WHY she needed to respect her marriage vows, at least in front of the kids, for 36 more days. Of course she had been upset with me for informing them that the divorce wasn't official in the first place. I'm thinking that's a lie (of omission, and exactly the type of thing I was trying to teach them is wrong). I guess that's the inherent dishonesty that waywards have with themselves that makes it a little easier for them to become wayward in the first place.

I also realized that I had helped create the confusion in her wayward little mind when I said that after the court date I really didn't care what she did. (If you remember, I was gung-ho to start a new life myself). Subsequently, I realized the lessons learned by little eyes would not be a good one if either of us began (or continued) relationships while still officially married. Again, I related to stbx that I wasn't going to stop her but I would explain that her actions were wrong in a true sense of marriage. She got it and again agreed to be respectful, for their sake.

During the course of the conversation, she actually apologized (kindof) again, and I sensed a real remorse had set in about her A last summer. Evidently she has had some rough days because of it, so that was redeeming in some ways. She actually came around a little on why it is so disrespectful (and hurtful) [to me and the kids] to hang around with OM#2 in light of everything she put me through with the A. Ultimately we talked about how we are essentially incompatible and probably should have never married - a sentiment I feel is unfortunately very close to the truth even though I also believe that with MB principles, just about any two people could make it work. This woman can not meet my needs; she is a lost soul and I'm also not capable of helping her find her way. In Limbo's thread I read that waywards are flawed in deeper ways than just the act of infidelity and we can't fix those flaws. She asked how I've managed to embrace so many changes over the past year in my life. She asked for resources and I just mentioned Boundaries and this site (which she already knew about). I don't care if she reads my threads - I've said nothing untrue. We parted amicably that day.

Two forward, one back. Still progressing.

Opt

Opt, don't buy in to this rationalization. I'm guessing that (some of) you married years were the best years of your life. Your marriage also resulted in two precious gifts (DS and DD) that are the center of your world. This doesn't happen if a marriage was "never meant to be".

I had to call my WW on it when she said our marriage was a mistake from the beginning. No, the marriage was not the mistake, finding a way to screw it all up was the mistake!

That was my story....I guy I showed a house to painted his dd6's nails...and she showed it off...'look what my daddy did for me.' SOOOOOOOOOO cute. I would be way impressed with a father like that.

You are a good father!

Opt - I want to second Schtoop's remarks about even the worst marriages coming to some good.

My 1st marriage was a disaster. I chose to marry him out of a combination of a horrible case of Ugly Duckling Syndrome and Daddy Issues. I'm sure I could have made a worse choice for a H, but I'd have had to work at it.

But I learned a lot about myself, and about marriage. I have a beautiful DD who is a precocious, funny, snarky 13 yo now. There was a LOT of bad in the marriage, and some of it's still lingering in the form of financial entanglements, but every bit of it was worth it to have my DD. Yes, I'd have had children with someone else, but it wouldn't be THIS DD.

The 2nd marriage, currently D in progress, didn't result in any children, but once again I have a wealth of self-knowledge that's come from it, and my H and I have both grown a lot. The marriage was built on lies and issues that we both brought in, and probably never stood a chance.

Regrets about each marriage? Absolutely. But nothing in this life is a waste, and if you have precious kiddos from a union, it was worth whatever he11 you went through.

JMHO.