</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H snuck porn since he was 12ish.....hid from his mother....hiding it from me was just the next step in what he considered normal. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's funny...they know it's wrong when they are young (they hide it), but then justify it when they are older despite the opportunity for real sex and intimacy. Maybe when they are young it is the idea of talking about sex in general that causes embarrassment (esp. around women) and they lump talking about sex and porn/masturbation together so that when sex becomes okay, so does porn...yet they still hide it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
I still think of porn as "a guy thing". Most men don't understand why most women love to spend hours shopping...it's "a girl thing". Shopping exhausts financial resources, takes time away from RC, necessitates more storage and special events to dress up in each outfit, and possibly cause men as much grief as porn causes women. But, it's a girl thing and most men just accept it as that. Obviously, using porn has far worse emotional risks for both the user and his/her spouse, so the analogy may appear weak in that respect, but the idea of girl things and guy things...I'll subscribe to that. We're different creatures and I can accept that in many areas without encourage or advocating individual habits. Also, I subscribe to that concept of picking your battles and compromising. Fortunately, in my relationship that is enveloped with honesty on both sides, I think we've found a compromise that will work for us without taking something away from him that he enjoys.

Smile

Smile - good observation and you have confirmed the double standard. Splurging and excessive shopping/spending is expected of women and condoned, forget the possible financial ruin and lack of trust it can bring to the M. Yes, this is a stereotype and most women aren't like this at all.

The same scenario applies to men and porn, except the man is labeled as a non-caring, selfish beast. I can't wait to see how the feminists, liberal media elite, and the social engineers explain away the increasing involvement of WOMEN and porn.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>So address the question, please! Do you agree or dispute Scrum's statement of
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think a primary mistake is for women to take it personally. .......
They want sexual fulfillment without worrying about doing something wrong, without the worry of trying to please you, without the same old same old. .....
Most of all husbands like to feel desired and wanted by their wives.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you agree, do you see the inherent conflict with women having the same SF rights when porn is involved in the marriage?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WOMEN want sexual fulfillment without worrying about doing something wrong, without the worry of trying to please you, without the same old same old. .....
Most of all wives like to feel desired and wanted by their husbands.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you've kind of connoted Scrum's statement. I don't really see what the big deal about gender equity is. Here's how I read it:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think a primary mistake is for women to take it personally. .......
When men use porn, they want sexual fulfillment without worrying about doing something wrong, without the worry of trying to please you, without the same old same old. .....
Most of all husbands like to feel desired and wanted by their wives.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't have to agree or disagree with the statement as written or interpreted to grant that women are not disallowed from feeling the same way.

I read this as an episodic situation. Sometimes people (gender non-specific) feel this way about sex. Sometimes I don't want sex to be involved in all of the emotional pomp and circumstance and I just want to have sex. I don't stumble over the notion that women would sometimes feel the same way. I know that the atmosphere and tone of the intimate times my W and I share varies.

I would only "take it personally" if my W was neglecting me. Again, I don't see the problem with flipping the genders here. I think it's a big red flag when porn becomes first choice over the spouse -- and this is where you see me reacting to all of the comments about avoiding intimacy with a willing partner. And I suppose that's why I have to view the statement as an episodic one because it's just beyond me to prefer anything over sex with me W.

I've seen it said that men would still masturbate and/or watch porn no matter how much sex they had with their wives. That seems odd to me. I can't even speak for myself on that one. I've never had sex with my W with enough frequency to know if it applies to me. I can't imagine what it would be like if we had sex as often as I would like. That is where Scrum's statement comes in, though. Would I still want to have some sexual experiences without worries? Seems to me like I could get that with my W since there are some times when it's more about me and other times when it's about her and still other times when both of us are into it enough that it's more about us.

I just don't get why it's such a big deal to flip the genders on that statement. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I don't think Scrum was addressing any specific scenario (addictive situations or circumstances of neglect) with his comment. I guess it just works out as an observation that regardless of gender (though Scrum was stating it from the male perspective) the level of intimacy that allows for sex to be emotionally safe, without worries, and occasionally a little one-sided is rather elusive.

Not to hijack the thread, but for anyone who wants to offer advice on that last point, I'm open. Perhaps it will shed some light on why one would choose solo activities over a "willing" spouse and even be sort of on topic.

I have always had a very difficult time with quickies for me -- not that we've done that a lot, but that's part of the problem because it doesn't seem to work out well. On the occasions when we've had a quickie, I have a very hard time accepting it. I feel bad that she's not gotten much out of the encounter. I feel like I've done something selfish -- that I've taken something rather than being given something. I can't get past the fact that she didn't really want to have sex in the first place and just played along. Perhaps it's because she's rather passive about it -- I feel like I've done all the work anyway. Given my feelings in that kind of situation, does it make sense to any of you women out there that maybe I'd just as soon fantasize about my W and masturbate than to invoke all of the emotional baggage related to having sex with a "willing" but not particularly "enthusiastic" partner?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Dilbert:
[QUOTE]I think you've kind of connoted Scrum's statement. I don't really see what the big deal about gender equity is. Here's how I read it:

<strong>I think a primary mistake is for women to take it personally. .......
When men use porn, they want sexual fulfillment without worrying about doing something wrong, without the worry of trying to please you, without the same old same old. .....
Most of all husbands like to feel desired and wanted by their wives.</strong>I don't have to agree or disagree with the statement as written or interpreted to grant that women are not disallowed from feeling the same way.

I've seen it said that men would still masturbate and/or watch porn no matter how much sex they had with their wives. That seems odd to me. I can't even speak for myself on that one. I've never had sex with my W with enough frequency to know if it applies to me. I can't imagine what it would be like if we had sex as often as I would like. That is where Scrum's statement comes in, though. Would I still want to have some sexual experiences without worries? Seems to me like I could get that with my W since there are some times when it's more about me and other times when it's about her and still other times when both of us are into it enough that it's more about us.

I just don't get why it's such a big deal to flip the genders on that statement. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I don't think Scrum was addressing any specific scenario (addictive situations or circumstances of neglect) with his comment. I guess it just works out as an observation that regardless of gender (though Scrum was stating it from the male perspective) the level of intimacy that allows for sex to be emotionally safe, without worries, and occasionally a little one-sided is rather elusive.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dilbert, thank you for taking a try at this. I think the reason his statement/observation so floored me is that women who are offended by porn, who experience a loss in libido as a result of their husband's viewing preferences to porn rather than respecting their wife's feelings is that the flip side statement becomes a fact:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it's absolutely impossible for women to NOT take it personally. .......
When men use porn, their wives will be unable to have sexual fulfillment without worrying about doing something wrong, without the worry of trying to please you, without the same old same old. .....
Most of all wives like to feel desired and wanted by their husbands, and when their husbands view porn, we do NOT feel desired, wanted, etc</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">With porn in the relationship, SF is no longer exclusive. The man's sexual attention is self-centered. His wife will naturally feel "competition", even though there is no flesh-and-blood OW - his mind has wandered to someone else's air-brushed sexual perfection.

hi Dilbert...
yes, it makes sense to me.
you almost feel like you are doing her a favor by not bothering her.

she may have even given you good reason to think that way.

i think that is how my husband thought.... i don't know why, i wish he would have been upfront and expressed the need first.

i would love to talk about the amount of intimacy needed that allows sex to be so emotionally safe that it can be one sided now and then and that's ok.

that's the type of intimacy i want in marriage.
for both of us.
and funny thing is..

i am very willing to be there for him for quickies or bjs or something else one sided.....i like that it if can deposit love units and i like using those times as foreplay for me......i just want him to make a point of staying affectionate and intouch w/ me so we can take some more time to have a slow and intimate session again soon.

but, here' s the kicker...i don't like him to do that FOR me.
i don't like to come if he doesn't.

it is difficult to talk about this stuff.
but, the more we try the better we get at it.

can i ask you...does your wife know you look at porn and masturbate instead of "bothering" her?

if she doesn't...she might be willing to discuss the whole issue w/ you if she knew.
she might feel like opening up to you if you told her something so personal first.

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

I find myself confused. What exactly is the controvery here?

Do many people think porn is a good thing with no negative side effects? I doubt it. Maybe some do. But I think most of us admit that using porn is dangerous and risky.

But what are we supposed to do about that? Ban it. Divorce any spouse who uses it? Or verbally flog them until they either divorce us or we reduce their ego to rubble?

We all agree porn is unhealthy. But what should we do about it when we discover that our spouse is indulging?

MB says: Radical honesty and POJA should be used. Feelings should be shared. Followed by brainstorming. A solution should be found that BOTH spouse's are enthusiastic about.

If the "porn is a plague" people sense a little resistance from the "porn isn't THAT bad" people, perhaps it arises from a curious rejection of POJA. Maybe I am misinterpreting. To me, it sometimes sounds like the "porn is a plague" people are saying "porn is SOOOO bad, that I am entitled to demand that my spouse stop using porn, and I don't have to negotiate over it."

Whereas I hear the "porn isn't THAT bad" people asking "what are you willing to do to help your spouse be enthusiastic about giving up porn"? And hearing back "NOTHING! I shouldn't have to change anything to get them to give up porn."

I don't think we disagree that porn is bad. Or that the porn using person should cooperate with their spouse and give up the porn. Refusal to even negotiate over giving up porn (and I mean bona fide discussion, not just playing along until the acute anger passes and hoping the issue eventually gets swept under a rug) is poor marital behavior. I don't see much disagreement about that.

I agree with Dilbert that there is no double standard. I don't hear anyone saying that women must accept a husband's porn use but men are free to demand their wives never use porn. I think most people here agree that either spouse is entitoled to ask their spouse to stop using porn if that use causes hurt feelings.

If there is any double standard, it may be in the steroetypical and unscientific belief that many husbands would welcome their wife's use of porn. Despite our ability to imagine particular scenarios in which the husband would be decidedly UNcomfortable with that use.

Hold,
i know i have read many posts that argued porn is no big deal to the relationship.
no harm, men masturbating to porn is a fact of life.......silly woman, get over it, you are just insecure.

or the infamous....what she doesn't know, won't hurt her.

which obviously is a problem, because when she finds out, she is very hurt and the guy can't understand why. he might though, if they discussed it first.

and then there was Happy Husbands ongoing position that men view porn because they want variety and want to fantasize about casual sex w/ many different women.

well, knowing that fact certainly kills the notion that a wife is exclusive to her H..... and that will feel like competition and intimacy will suffer.

i know the concept of a wife who likes to look at porn is lost on men.
but, i don't think too many men would be happy if they their wifes were sneeking porn and masturbating.... while sex with H was infrequent and mediocre....and he was not fulfilled..and she is not fulfilled....but so waht, they both still have thier porn and thier fantasies......completely seperate from eacother.

or suppose the woman is into sexual chat rooms? or phone sex. and sex w/ you remains infrequent....

how would husbands feel about that?

she is going outside the marriage for SF. (phone or cyber sex is the same as porn really, if we go by the typical male response to visual attraction.....and the fact that women prefer some type of a connection.)

YOU are not exclusive to her. you are not as much fun... and much more work than phone sex.....
how does that make you feeL?

it's the feeling of going outside the relationship for sexual gratification that is the problem.....i think.

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>With porn in the relationship, SF is no longer exclusive. The man's sexual attention is self-centered. His wife will naturally feel "competition", even though there is no flesh-and-blood OW - his mind has wandered to someone else's air-brushed sexual perfection. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You make so many flat assertions that put me off your point that I have a hard time picking through to the meat of what you say.

Here's your point wihtout the distractions:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">With porn in the relationship, SF is no longer exclusive. His wife will naturally feel "competition", even though there is no flesh-and-blood OW - his mind has wandered...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>The man's sexual attention is self-centered</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How is this? Yeah, solo porn or masturbation is self-centered, but when it's not solo... it's not self-centered. Maybe this is the male ability to compartmentalize and keep his relationship with his W in an emotionally separate bucket.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>someone else's air-brushed sexual perfection</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Caution: Women jumping to conclusions. Not all porn is air-brushed perfection! I think what a lot of men mean when they say that women shouldn't take it personally is that we don't expect real women to look like porn women. And in my case, I'd rather see real women that look more like my W than the caricatures that are so common on the covers of women's magazines, in Hollywood films and TV shows, and in porn. I don't think that porn is the primary source of most women's poor self-image.

You don't think that porn is the primary source of the womans poor self image?

no, i don't think so either.
(but, it doesn't help either)

women do tend to compare themselves more than men and most do have fragile self-images, when it comes to thier bodies and aging. i think most of us, can use a little extra reassurance in that area....especially w/ what is pushed by the media.
perfect boobs are everywhere......and i recently read a post that said a man looses sexual attraction to his wife after she has breastfed and her breasts sag.......oouch. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

i think the fact that she is not exclusive to him is more of a problem for most women..... that, and maybe she feels sexually inadequate.
i mean sexually......performance wise.


you men can understand THAT, can't you?

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nelly:
<strong>and then there was Happy Husbands ongoing position that men view porn because want variety and want to fantasize about casual sex w/ many different women.

well, knowing that fact certainly kills the notion that a wife is exclusive to her H ..... and that will feel like competition and intimacy will suffer.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I am left asking "what if both points are true"? What if most men want to fantasize about many different women? And what if most women want to fantasize that she is the only woman that her husband desires? How do we reconcile the irreconcilable?

That is the dilemma and the beauty of marriage. It is the relentless attempt to mix oil and water. The desire to merge two individuals into one unity.

Perhaps Marriage Builders can be thought of as a process designed to make Italian Dressing out of oil and vinegar. You can't REALLY merge the ingredients. No matter how hard you shake the bottle, you can always tell which part is oil and which is vinegar. But you can still make delicious dressing with them.

So how do we make salad dressing here? Saying "she can't be happy unless he stops desiring other women" doesn't help. Saying "he can't be happy unless he gets to fantasize about sex with other women" doesn't help. Saying "she is less happy knowing he fantasizes, and he is less happy if his fantasies are demeaned" perhaps moves the process forward. But where are the herbs and spices that make this dichotomy into cuisine? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Perhaps if we have a difference of opinion, it is over the following: which is easier to accomplish? Retraining your mind not to want something you think you want? Or retraining your mind to stop feeling hurt by something that your spouse wants that you wish they didn't?

Let us try to imagine something analogous where the shoe is (stereotypically) on the other foot. Suppose a woman likes to look at magazine ads for expensive jewelry. And to fantasize that she owns some huge necklace / earrings / bracelet / ring combo that she saw some actress wear down the red carpet to the Oscars.

If there is no way in heck that her husband can afford those items, then I imagine we would all agree that she shouldn't go out and buy them. But suppose her husband feels insecure as a provider if she confides her fantasy about wanting them? How is either of them supposed to react?

Is she supposed to stop WISHING she could afford expensive jewelry? Is she supposed to flaggellate herself if the thought of jewelry ever crosses her mind? Is she supposed to throw away all jewelry cataloges before they enter the house (along with the Victoria's Secret cataloges)?

Or is her husband supposed to talk through the issue with her? And maybe accept that her wanting jewelry doesn't mean she is unsatisfied with him as a financial provider? And maybe accept that as long as she doesn't go out and buy the jewelry. Or start a relationship (EA) with a man who CAN afford to buy her expensive jewelry. That he should "lighten up" and not be so uptight about her desire for material possessions?

Not saying she would be correct to tell him "I'm gonna apply for every jewelry cataloge available, surf jewelry stores online, spend hours poring over them by myself, watch the tv shopping channels during jewelry hours, and I don't ever want to hear another word about it."

They should compromise. She should do what she can to reassure him that he does a fine job as a provider (if he does). Or work with him to become a better provider if he needs help in that area. And perhaps it would help if she were discreet in her ogling of jewelry. Or is this hiding and a betrayal of RH?

As someone who faced this issue, I can tell you that even outside of the sex / porn area, it rarely accomplishes anything to tell someone to stop dreaming their dreams. Often they can't. Usually they won't. So you have to find other ways to deal with somewhat irreconcilable desires.

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: holdingontoit ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nelly:
<strong>i would love to talk about the amount of intimacy needed that allows sex to be so emotionally safe that it can be one sided now and then and that's ok.

that's the type of intimacy i want in marriage.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me too. I've done a lot of reading at TheMarriageBed.com. I've seen descriptions of sexual intimacy on levels that just blow me away. I just can't imagine the comfort and intimacy levels.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nelly:
<strong>i am very willing to be there for him for quickies or bjs or something else one sided.....i like that it if can deposit love units and i like using those times as foreplay for me......i just want him to make a point of staying affectionate and intouch w/ me so we can take some more time to have a slow and intimate session again soon.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's a good example of what I was talking about. I think I'd have an easier time with one-sided things if my W could be more like that. I think you are unusual that way. My W can only do oral sex when she is very aroused herself and even then it's never all the way. But for me it would make me feel like she was an active participant in doing something for me rather than leaving me feeling like I'm doing something to her. I'd love bjs, but it would work just as well if she would just get on top or something...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nelly:
<strong>but, here' s the kicker...i don't like him to do that FOR me.
i don't like to come if he doesn't.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's very... male. I've not seen many women say that. But I think the motivation is different. I think men are more motivated by proving their sexual abilities as evidenced by their partner having an orgasm, though I just really enjoy watching her (perhaps I am getting some subconcious proof of my abilities there, though). I think for you it's some emotional or intimacy thing, but I don't know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nelly:
<strong>it is difficult to talk about this stuff.
but, the more we try the better we get at it.

can i ask you...does your wife know you look at porn and masturbate instead of "bothering" her?

if she doesn't...she might be willing to discuss the whole issue w/ you if she knew.
she might feel like opening up to you if you told her something so personal first. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's very, very difficult to discuss.

Yeah, my W knows. I admitted the porn to her once. It didn't generate a lot of discussion. This was probably because I didn't present it as a substitute for bothering her but more as a comment that I'd had a look around at what was out there. Since that time she caught me looking. She was upset as you might expect. The subsequent discussion when things calmed down was very one-sided and related more to me not looking at any more porn. From my perspective, that's the worst thing about porn for me. It's left me in a morally inferior position. My feelings are trumped by hers because I was wrong. Nevermind whether she's ever done anything wrong in our relationship...

We have a lot to discuss, but it's very difficult. Whenever I feel like I'm just about to get someplace with her, the subject changes or she avoids the point. I'm Mr. ISTJ, so things should have rational explanations...

-Why is it that she can give me oral sex to "help me out" when we're collecting a specimen for infertility testing. This was a situation where it was very one-sided. There was not going to be anything in return. And she initiated. But she can't do oral just for me. It left me feeling like she can do what she really wants to do (get that specimen so she could work on getting a pregnancy she really wanted) and that I'm not something she really wants to do.

-Why is it that we have really good sex after we go see a racy movie (not necessarily pornographic, but R-rated or very romantic or both). I kind of subscribe to the idea that it doesn't matter where you find your appetite as long as you eat at home, but I wonder why the best sex often requires outside stimulation for her.

-And then there was the time when we were having frequent sex on a schedule to get pregnant. It was not particularly spontaneous, romantic, or anything. And I was doing a lot of the work... There was one time that I just wasn't into it and failed to provide the required output. She got really upset and felt like I should be able to do it because it was so important to her... you see where I'm going with that one? Why can't she "perform" because it's so important to me...

I just don't get good answers to these questions when we talk. I don't think these are unreasonable things to want to explore, but it's got to be poor communication on my part. I've got to be doing something that makes her close up, although I think she's just unwilling to face her own attitudes on some things.

i think they CAN both be happy if they communicate and understand eachother.
and make a point to KEEP the focus on eachother.

women have fantasies too.
and they are not all about beeing the only woman thier husband desires.....i think you think womens fantasies are much simpler than they really are.

i fantasize about being wanted by other men. always have. it's similar but different.
i NOW understand how my husband can fantasize wanting to have sex w/ other women.....about being wanted by other women.
but, i couldn't have if we didn't TALK about it.


i also think it's very important for a woman to feel secure that her husband would pass up the oppourtunity to have sex w/ another woman if one presented itself.
i would imagine a man would want to feel that secure too.
i think women often think of men's desire to have sex w/ other women as more dangerous to the relationship than thier desires.

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As someone who faced this issue, I can tell you that even outside of the sex / porn area, it rarely accomplishes anything to tell someone to stop dreaming their dreams. Often they can't. Usually they won't. So you have to find other ways to deal with somewhat irreconcilable desires.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I thought this was a fantastic post, Holding. Great analogies. Helped me understand the male perspective a little better and reinforced the justification I've been trying to grasp.
This is why I opt for honesty over having everything my way. I know that even if I could maintain the honesty and get him to stop looking at porn, that wouldn't make him stop WANTING to look at it and there is the potential for resentment and less openness as a result.
I'd rather deal with my minor insecurities than lies.

Smile

Dilbert,

i like proof of my abilities too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

i think most women do.
that is an emotional need too, i think.
and the intimacy it can create pulls it all together. i find it is all very connected.

the type of sexual intimacy you mentioned from that website is what i always wanted.
it's what i always craved....and i think the fact that men can seperate it so easily.....particularly, my husband....was difficult for me.

to me, that type of intimacy IS EXCLUSIVE.....so, what Holding talks about in his last post......promoting seperate fantasies and just accepting that......feels strange to me.

you are an istj and you crave that too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
that is a good sign.....i used to wonder if my husband could ever grasp the concept........i think maybe it was always there for him too, but he didn't really understand it he couldn't express it to me.

i can't imagine that any spouse wouldn't want to have that type of sexual intimacy if they understood it........and, i think it has to start w/ one spouse expressing it and the other being receptive to the whole idea of it.
it's how to do that that gets tricky.

you said when you metioned the porn to your wife she didn't react well and made you feel like you were wrong and asked you to stop.

i can understand both sides of the coin.....NOW.
after being on this board and reading the responses from both H's and W's.
i think you might be getting there too.

suppose your wife thinks you look at porn because you are after other women....she hasn't let herself understand the deeper parts of it yet.
she may be coming from a very self protecting view.
it scares her. she can't messure up and you are after something else.

maybe she assumes you are looking at the typical porn star type. maybe she doesn't understand you want the comfortability of the intimacy and want to feel desired by her.

boy, Dilbert, if my husband could have expressed things the way you have, i would have melted right there in front of him.
those were the things i wanted to hear and share w/ him.
i say keep trying......maybe you could approach it w/ an attitude like... i desire you and i want to feel desired by you...can we work on that?

<small>[ January 27, 2004, 06:53 AM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nelly:
<strong>to me, that type of intimacy IS EXCLUSIVE.....so, what Holding talks about in his last post......promoting seperate fantasies and just accepting that......feels strange to me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I don't think many people WANT separate fantasies. The question is, what do you do when someone truly wants something that the other person is not prepared to deliver? Get divorced? Fight constantly? Agree to disagree?

Suppose my wife wants jewelry that costs HUGE money? Am I supposed to go into massive debt and buy it for her? Change careers so I can earn enough to afford it? Steal it? What if I am unwilling to do any of those things?

Am I supposed to tell my wife "just stop wanting that expensive jewelry"? How exactly is she supposed to stop wanting it?

Of course I would prefer if she could somehow honestly and truly desire only jewelry that I could afford. Maybe she would accept a CZ copy of the items she liked. Maybe we could save up over a period of years and buy ONE of the items. Much brainstorming can be done. The possibilities are limitless.

But nevertheless constrained. So if we cannot think up an alternative in which her fantasies fit within my financial resources, what do we do? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I can think of many scenarios in which we fill my wife's life with so many wonderful things, so many blessings, that she hardly ever thinks about the jewelry she can't afford. But does she ever truly stop WISHING for it?

I am not PROMOTING separate fantasies. I am asking for help in how to deal with a situation where a couple is already married, already has children, and already HAS separate fantasies. Neither of them wants separate fantasies. The one with the unsatisfied yearning probably wishes they could rid themselves of this obnoxious need. Nevertheless, we are faced with the hard choice. What do we do when it becomes clear that, despite extensive brainstorming, one spouse is unwilling or unable to help make the other spouse's fantasy come true?

i am sorry, Hold.
i think i misunderstood.

i was relating strictly to sexual fantasies.

now, i am wondering if i am having a hard time relating because sex is pretty high up on my needs list.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

because as much as i like expensive jewelry and fancy vacations etc......i prefer my husbands attention, and my own fantasies of sexual intimacy to any of it.

so, if he would rather spend his time fantasizing about having that with someone else, i would be confused and hurt.

now, random sexual fantasies w/ no intimacy, don't bother me.

but, sex and intimacy being so important to me....if i am there....i would hope my H would approach me and give me that oppourtunity to make a deposit in his love bank (by doing so, he makes a deposit in mine too)....not run off and fantasize about casual sex w/ some young big boobed porn star or an old girlfriend.

just because it is easier?......eeh, ok.. maybe.

but, if it has to do w/ a need of his to feel sexual prowess w/ other women.......that's an issue he should be thinking about, it does nothing to help OUR marriage. it's complete independant behaviour.

(and i'd like to add.... that i think sometimes we all should evaluate our fantasies like that... are they harmless? are they needs?.....or just a form of an insecurity that makes us feel better about ourselves for a brief time....why is that? and HOW is that helping my relationship w/ my spouse)


again, i say i would HOPE he'd come to me first...
i don't demand it,
that wouldn't feel the same to me.
i wouldn't feel like i was getting a love deposit that way, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> but a withdrawal..... and i would have to wonder what he gets out of the deal?? besides just sex. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

i do feel offended and then resentful when he can continue to be sexually intimate w/ me........and then not converse about anything intimate afterwards,..... but becomes all buisness like shortly after sex.
i feel unappreciated and used. the love deposits i got from our lovemaking were just withdrawn.

so, if i can relate the lack of intimate conversation to expensive jewlery......(hmmm, still having a hard time w/ this one.)

i would say you must find a way to talk about it and really understand and disect your needs and what is behind them....and that could take a long time...........then, eventually poja it.

<small>[ January 27, 2004, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

Smile - You said, very honestly I might add - "I'd rather deal with my minor insecurities than lies". That is a profound statement and you are to be commended for having that perspective. Hold, myself, and maybe Dilbert have this problem with our W's - They would rather lie, neglect, or conceal their sexual aversions than deal with their minor (or major) insecurities. See what I mean? That's the real point of frustration with me. My W NEVER achieved the big O, not once. I lovingly offered to assist in any way possible. I used to beat my brains out with feelings of inadequacy. We attended a marriage seminar once where the female speaker encouraged the wives to allow themselves to experience SF without feelings of guilt, condemnation, or whatever. She offered creative ways of self-stimulation and ways for H's to assist in achieving orgasm.

My W's reaction? "She must be some kind of sex freak and I can't believe she said some of those things in public! Who does she think she is?"

Which brings me back to Nelly - You have great insights and us guys see you as a mature, knowledgeable woman. Your scenario, and the way you CHOSE to explore SF issues, sound like utopia to us who have NEVER experienced the sexual highs you relate. We TRIED - we SWEATED - we PRAYED - we SERVED - we CRIED - and then, some of us gave up!

thanks for the compliment, Hurting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> i feel very fortunate that my husband and i have very similar top needs, our communication has been our most difficult obstacle, thus far.

what i have described is sexual utopia for me too.

but, i'll share an insecurity here.....i used to worry (and sometimes, it creeps back) that sexual utopia for my husband meant....lots of explicit sex w/ lots of different women. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

anybody care to discuss this w/ me?

<small>[ January 27, 2004, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

sexual utopia? um...

I think sexual utopia for me would be lots of sex with my wife if and when she was being fully herself and fully uninhibited, we both were in good health and didn't have any time pressures or financial worries or conflicted priorities and values which had us going different directions at different speeds, both cars worked, the bills were current, our son was socially adapted and playing happily at a friend's house and we had the house to ourselves with the hot tub working and no outside pressures or intrusions on our plans. Assuming all that....then

I would like to have sex with her owning her own personal power and more interested in sensuality than driving for climax or driving me to a climax, sort of the liesurly build up with many plateaus and lots of kissing and touching and changing positions to get a different flavor and so enjoying varieties and playing the "les connesuer de sensual"

no pressure no rush, nothing but relaxing into lovemaking together and doing whatever either of us thinks might be the next enjoyable thing to try. Lots of communication and no guilt, no shame, no performance anxiety.

perhaps that last part would be the hardest hurdle to get over. Not only does my wife seem to have performance anxiety about wanting to please me but seems to have a boatload of sexpectations all her own which I wonder if she ever lives up to her own critical evaluations.

yes sexual utopia would be just being able to finally relax and be sexual without facing the judge and jury and knowing that my wife is facing her own committe judges and juries.

making steam without fire or water trying to dominate and control or repress the other element.

yes I have a dream.

I can't speak for your husband his dream may be different. Personally I think I could find all the variety I want with one woman assuming she was all there and not otherwise fettered and weighed down by life.

you wanna know what's so damn seductive about porn... these people some of which look stunningly beautiful and some of which do not all have one thing in common. They have no worries. All they have to do is have sex. The don't have financial problems, they don't have cars break down or dishwashers break, they don't get sick, they don't have kids nagging on them or making demands of their time, they have no civic responsibilities or church responsibilities. They are 100% available for sex and sex only. they are united by a singularity of purpose which is just to please themselves or so they seem. And they let others watch.

So in a world of pressures and demands and conflicts and challenges of so many sorts it's pretty darn enticing to just for one moment watch people who seem so harmoniously united in the pursuit of nothing but pleasure and who don't and aren't stopping to buy groceries, do laundry, catch up on what's going on with their favorite message board online forum or worry about fixing dinner. They make dinner of themselves with each other and somehow it seems that in porn no one is inadequate not matter what they look like. They show up willing to do the deed and they do and never seem disappointed or let down or anything other than just happy to be alive and be in the moment.

It's all attitude I guess. The attitude of 'gonna have some fun and nothing's more important than having fun right here and right now'.

For anyone who's mired in responsibilities that has to be seductive.

<small>[ January 27, 2004, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: Kasey1 ]</small>

Kasey:

Brilliant! Excellent! Marvellous!

You have captured one very important aspect of the allure. Well done. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />