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Yea, as they say, life is a b....h!!!
BS me 55yrs
WH 59 yrs
M 34 yrs 6/26/2010
DD 25
D Day May 5, 2010
NC 5/12/2010
Duration of affair 5 years, but other affairs discovered on D Day
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melody
"The affair and the OM should not be brought up NOW. "
Why?
The BS controls what they need to know. If the BS was not ready then but needs or wants to know now, their questions should be answered.
No time limit to the truth.
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melody
"The affair and the OM should not be brought up NOW. "
Why?
The BS controls what they need to know. If the BS was not ready then but needs or wants to know now, their questions should be answered.
No time limit to the truth. Once all the truth is out, it should not be brought up again. Lurioosi is 4 years from D-Day. Continually bringing up the affair again hampers recovery.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I didn't want to derail anyone else's thread with this question, but it has run through my mind before.
After our D-Day, DH wanted to know what I felt, what I did, etc. etc. I told him. He asked, for example, if SF was good with OM. I told him yes...but I didn't go on and on about all the intricacies of how this and that I felt. I answered his questions, but I didn't beat him over the head with how long O's lasted, blah blah blah.
He asked me if I loved OM. I told him that at the time I truly thought I did, but that I realized how shallow and baseless it all was. He wanted to know if I felt nothing for him during that time. I told him how angry and hard hearted I was and that I did not feel love at that point....but that I also realized just how resentment-oriented that was as well.
So here is what I am wondering. There were times during our recovery when I felt....numb. It wasn't anything He did. It wasn't anything about the OM being God's gift to the universe. It was the price of my horrific choice.
So here is what I am wondering. I hear a lot about complete honesty...but does that mean I was supposed to go to great lengths not only to let DG know I wasn't "in love" with him but all the things that I thought were being "in love" with OM? Should I have dragged him through the mud of my disgusting thinking in the name of honesty. When there were those times that I cared for him but didn't feel elation all over, was I supposed to make sure he knew how I DIDN'T feel? I am asking because it seems to me making sure of all this all the time would have just hurt him worse.
If a friend tries on a dress that makes her look big, I can say, "That isn't very flattering" or I can say, "You look like a big tent, fatty....Can I describe every part of your body that looks huge in that?" I'm not gonna say the second...ever.
We are four years out, and all that has passed, but I just wonder, does telling a BS exactly how big a guy's package was or how he made you scream like a banshee and made you feel things you never felt with the BS (not that this happened, just an example) really THAT beneficial? Is telling the BS years down the road, "I have warm feelings for you but it will never compare to OP....just want to make sure you know" necessary? How is that anything but downright cruel and damaging? My DH and I are having some challenges right now that don't even begin to compare to infidelity, and if he felt the need to detail exactly how NOT in love with me he was, I wouldn't consider it "radically honest." I'd consider it hateful. I don't want him to lie, but he doesn't need to go overboard.
Am I just a deluded sap? I just can't figure out how ripping someone's security in the name of making sure they know "the ugly truth" is helpful. I'm not talking about hiding or lying, I'm talking about HOW it's said.
That's it.
2. Don't lie by omission.
If it is important for the marriage TODAY, that a fact be revealed, then do it.
These are my rules, BTW, not MB-classic.  Also remember, FEELINGS are not facts.
You can recall feelings from the past, that doesn't make them factual.
If H asks about your PAST feelings, you can answer with honesty.
"I recall this (feeling) in the past.
Now I feel (feeling) instead."
"UGLY feelings" are not the same as "UGLY truths". Can you see the difference? One of my siblings used to express every ugly feeling like it was her birthright. It was terrible being in her line of fire, as she felt entitled and determined to unload her feelings masked as "truth". Share your feelings with each other. Kindly. I hope this helps.
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Lurioosi2,
Is telling the BS years down the road, "I have warm feelings for you but it will never compare to OP....just want to make sure you know" necessary?
That's exactly one of the things I need to know from my W about OM.
One thing I can tell you about men, at least myself, is that they carry questions around for years, did you ever ask him an all encompassing "is there anything else you would like to know?"
God Bless
Gamma
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I really do believe that everything was completely covered for us. DH doesn't even see the A as relevant anymore. I was just being all nosy I guess...sorry about that. I just read a couple of posts where this whole idea was emphasized, and I wondered if it was necessary to get THAT graphic because it seemed to hurt so much. There have been a couple of times that people have come to me since my D-Day on one or the other side of infidelity asking advice. At least one of them ended up here, but sometimes a person doesn't feel safe posting things. I just wanted to make sure that everything I say to someone lines up with what they might read on here or in the MB books.
There is one BW on here who I barely even "know," don't think I have ever posted, but her story breaks my heart. I was mainly sparked to ask based on some of that. Don't know why I feel such a pull to really pray for her specifically, but I do.
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..sorry about that.
Actually your perspective is appreciated, and your point about big vs. small O's is right on target for me and possibly some other readers, as I consider that to be the 2nd most important question I need answering. There is nothing vulgar about bringing it up at all.
God Bless
Gamma
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Lurioosi2,
Is telling the BS years down the road, "I have warm feelings for you but it will never compare to OP....just want to make sure you know" necessary?
That's exactly one of the things I need to know from my W about OM.
One thing I can tell you about men, at least myself, is that they carry questions around for years, did you ever ask him an all encompassing "is there anything else you would like to know?"
God Bless
Gamma I'm like Gamma in that regard too. After moving into R, if my H has warm feelings for me, but I can't compare to OW post wayturd fog, then either his wayturd fog is permanent brain damage or I married the wrong bloke. Wouldn't hurt me to know his perspective, because, hey, if I don't do it for him, I'd rather be with someone that I do it for. Relationships are challenging enough w/o the complications of infidelity and recovery. Why be with someone you don't do it for or with someone who doesn't do it for you, kwim?
Live, love, and laugh because the best is yet to come!
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Btw, I didn't take your post to mean this was your current sitch with your DH, Luriosi. Rather, I thought it was more of a philosophical question about MB principle.
But I would think it would be up to the individual BS or WS 9or any spouse for that matter) to tell his or her spouse if the attraction between them was only a "warm" feeling vs something more. I'd think that couples with that situation would want to ramp things up a bit or at least figure out how to.
Live, love, and laugh because the best is yet to come!
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There are two parts to this as I see it, and I don't claim to know it all. There is honesty and there is brutality. There is no such thing as too honest, but there is such a thing as too brutal. The typical example, the wife asks her husband if she's fat. Honest: Yes, I think you could lose weight. Brutal: I've seen pigs slimmer than you. Betrayed husband asks unfaithful wife if sex with the OM was better than sex with him: Honest: Yes, it was very good. Brutal: Compared to him, you suck in bed. True intimacy requires the permission to be honest. So if you don't want to hear the truth from your husband if he's not feeling in love, then yes, I think you are being deluded. I'd tell him the same if he was afraid to ask you tough questions about the affair. Intimacy is the ability for a husband to be able to answer the "Do these jeans make me look fat?" question with "No, it's your big butt that makes you look fat." and to not be offended by the fact that you have a big butt and your husband is willing to be honest with you. Unless you are willing to accept difficult to hear answers to questions, you are not willing to be intimate with your spouse. Intimacy is not just about the good times. It's about being willing to hear difficult things from your spouse, even if you don't think you want to hear them. The fact that he asked means he wants to be closer to you. The fact that you answer means that you are willing to trust that he will handle that difficult information. There is no such thing as too honest. But there is such a thing as too brutal. Always deliver honestly with love, not brutality. I didn't want to derail anyone else's thread with this question, but it has run through my mind before.
After our D-Day, DH wanted to know what I felt, what I did, etc. etc. I told him. He asked, for example, if SF was good with OM. I told him yes...but I didn't go on and on about all the intricacies of how this and that I felt. I answered his questions, but I didn't beat him over the head with how long O's lasted, blah blah blah.
He asked me if I loved OM. I told him that at the time I truly thought I did, but that I realized how shallow and baseless it all was. He wanted to know if I felt nothing for him during that time. I told him how angry and hard hearted I was and that I did not feel love at that point....but that I also realized just how resentment-oriented that was as well.
So here is what I am wondering. There were times during our recovery when I felt....numb. It wasn't anything He did. It wasn't anything about the OM being God's gift to the universe. It was the price of my horrific choice.
So here is what I am wondering. I hear a lot about complete honesty...but does that mean I was supposed to go to great lengths not only to let DG know I wasn't "in love" with him but all the things that I thought were being "in love" with OM? Should I have dragged him through the mud of my disgusting thinking in the name of honesty. When there were those times that I cared for him but didn't feel elation all over, was I supposed to make sure he knew how I DIDN'T feel? I am asking because it seems to me making sure of all this all the time would have just hurt him worse.
If a friend tries on a dress that makes her look big, I can say, "That isn't very flattering" or I can say, "You look like a big tent, fatty....Can I describe every part of your body that looks huge in that?" I'm not gonna say the second...ever.
We are four years out, and all that has passed, but I just wonder, does telling a BS exactly how big a guy's package was or how he made you scream like a banshee and made you feel things you never felt with the BS (not that this happened, just an example) really THAT beneficial? Is telling the BS years down the road, "I have warm feelings for you but it will never compare to OP....just want to make sure you know" necessary? How is that anything but downright cruel and damaging? My DH and I are having some challenges right now that don't even begin to compare to infidelity, and if he felt the need to detail exactly how NOT in love with me he was, I wouldn't consider it "radically honest." I'd consider it hateful. I don't want him to lie, but he doesn't need to go overboard.
Am I just a deluded sap? I just can't figure out how ripping someone's security in the name of making sure they know "the ugly truth" is helpful. I'm not talking about hiding or lying, I'm talking about HOW it's said.
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Lurioosi2,
Is telling the BS years down the road, "I have warm feelings for you but it will never compare to OP....just want to make sure you know" necessary?
That's exactly one of the things I need to know from my W about OM.
God Bless
Gamma You may want to know the answer to the question, but is this answer REALLY honest? How can a WS honestly say that the warm feelings that they had for OP that they will NEVER have the for BS....thats predicting the future....I mean they may not have that rush that comes with a new R...isnt it just better to say "I had(have)warm feelings for the OP and I may not have those exact feelings for you at this moment, but I would like to work towards that in our M." I mean goodness, to say that the feelings my WH had towards OP he would NEVER have for me would just be so disheartening in R...
BW me-41 WH -39 DS - 9 married 12 Yrs together(?) 18 yrs when A discovered DDay aug 2007 found MB dec 2007 Moved out april 2008 still seeing OW Plan B Okay I fixed the ages, it was looking screwy. 
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Here is my 2 cents on this.
My WH told me many years ago that he was impotent and I believed him. I also decided that I would repress my feelings because I did not want him to feel badly for not being able to perform. He has insulin dependent diabetes and I know that this is one of the side effects, I also was under the impression that the matter had been discussed with his doctor. As a result, I thought that an A was out of the question as my H is a very proud man and I did not envision the possibility that he would want anyone else to know about his problem.
Wel, imagine my surprise in finding out about his 5 year relationship with our "friend". So of course, my question was about SF, and his reply? "we worked around it" well I can't begin to tell you all the feelings that aroused in me so I went to ask, please tell me the first time there was a discussion about this, how did it come about and his response was, I am not going to go into that with you, you do not need to know the details???? the hell I don't. Our marriage almost ended that night cause I asked him to LEAVE IMMEDIATELY. Thats a piece of information I needed to know.
This is an issue that to this day is preventing me from committing to wanting to work on my marriage, I feel humiliated, angry, hurt, betrayed, oh boy, so many feelings.
No one but a BS gets to determine how much and what information is needed.
BS me 55yrs
WH 59 yrs
M 34 yrs 6/26/2010
DD 25
D Day May 5, 2010
NC 5/12/2010
Duration of affair 5 years, but other affairs discovered on D Day
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"Intimacy is the ability for a husband to be able to answer the "Do these jeans make me look fat?" question with "No, it's your big butt that makes you look fat." " For some reason this made me laugh. DH has never said that, but he is so logical I could almost hear him. Because it really IS the butt and not the jeans. I do agree with what EE said, that if we want people to be honest we have to make it safe to be honest. With our kids, we have tried to let them know that if they screw up we want them to be honest. Yeah, they might get into trouble, but it will go much better for them if they choose NOT to lie. Asking someone to go out on a limb and then chopping it down with my response isn't very fair.
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Intimacy is the ability for a husband to be able to answer the "Do these jeans make me look fat?" question with "No, it's your big butt that makes you look fat." and to not be offended by the fact that you have a big butt and your husband is willing to be honest with you.  .....That answer is brutal and would NOT make me feel the "intimate" with H at all. Not
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Our MC at the time only gave us one rule....No comparison questions. Because the comparison would be based on his "addiction high" feelings with the OW at the time VS. the "relationship low" feelings with me at the time. It seemed very reasonable and worked well.....
Not2fun
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I would just ask "Do these jeans make me look fatter than usual?" or "Do these jeans look flattering on me?"
I ask my DS these questions, since I have no husband to ask anymore...hes brutally honest with me too...and the honest answer never hurts me, ya know? I helps if you ask the question properly also.
BW me-41 WH -39 DS - 9 married 12 Yrs together(?) 18 yrs when A discovered DDay aug 2007 found MB dec 2007 Moved out april 2008 still seeing OW Plan B Okay I fixed the ages, it was looking screwy.
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Our MC at the time only gave us one rule....No comparison questions. Because the comparison would be based on his "addiction high" feelings with the OW at the time VS. the "relationship low" feelings with me at the time. It seemed very reasonable and worked well.....
Not2fun This makes complete sense to me...some questions are just asking for trouble...and the high of an affair and the stableness of a real relationship are really like comparing apples and oranges....JMHO
Last edited by stillhere8126; 08/16/10 04:49 PM. Reason: sp
BW me-41 WH -39 DS - 9 married 12 Yrs together(?) 18 yrs when A discovered DDay aug 2007 found MB dec 2007 Moved out april 2008 still seeing OW Plan B Okay I fixed the ages, it was looking screwy.
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Do you guys think that the purpose of my question was to compare? cause I don't see it that way.
BS me 55yrs
WH 59 yrs
M 34 yrs 6/26/2010
DD 25
D Day May 5, 2010
NC 5/12/2010
Duration of affair 5 years, but other affairs discovered on D Day
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To me, the dishonesty was a wedge that seperated us more and more as time went on. The more I "understood" about how "embarressing"her "indiscretions" were, The easier it was to relapse in anything. She may at one time pulled her head out of her butt, and acted right, but her lies drove the wedge in, and I was waiting for total honesty, and dreaded it at the same time.
There was the misdirected separation that was supposed to be her "relationship with God and forgiveness". I bought that crap as it pertained to my need, and I guess my right, to know the truth. So we didn't keep each other honest and lost intimacy and connectivity.
When we first reconciled, she was in control of her emotions, but she didn't come completly clean. she did not "need" AA and in her opinion did not "need" to discuss the past. Maybe not with God, but I am human, and I needed to know she would share EVERYTHING with me,as I did with her.
I don't think you should reveal anything that they don't ask about but if it bothers you examine it, get counsel about sharing it, and if there is something in it that you need from your marriage, aproach it from that perspective as an EN. There is nothing to be gained by comparison to someone who was a partner in filling an EN H was supposed to.
But if he asks, he deserves the truth, with all the gory details. I am assuming of course that the WS already has established that they were not in thier right mind beforehand and they are attempting to "excorsize" <sp> the paranoia developed from feeling that the BS could not fill the needs of the WS. This of course is bull, they weren't able to fill a fantasy, not an EN.
Eventually, with total honesty, intimacy will be restored as long as the BS is willing to forgive, and the WS is willing to be accountable, and all ENs are attended to enthusiasticaly over time.
Forgiveness and wishing to put the past behind you is part of the journey, but the fear of the unknown can be debilitating for the BS. take advantage of any time you can set the BS straight. That you were a fool for what happened, and it wasn't as wonderful as the relationship with them, and you are thankful you are back in real life. The details will only hurt them if you imagine the pleasure and behavior was right in some way. If you KNOW what it really was, and can convince them you are sorry you dropped so low, that it didn't compare to what you had and have now. It will soften the blow of radical and complete honesty. It is the path to intimacy.
Thats my M notso HO
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BTW, I many times called her on her lies, had known from other sources the truth, and was met with denial. Like I said, I was waiting for complete honesty, but should have demanded it instead of being paitent.
I encourage those who have BSs who might not want to ask you, but are still hurting inside, to take the opportunity to set them straight that they are the REAL love of your life. If these mind dreams might still haunt them, or thier confidance in themselves is diminished.
Me 56 Former BS Widowed 5-17-09 --married 25 years. 4 children DS-35 previous marriage--18-22 DGrandSons 6 and 4 Me former BS DD-29 with DGDs 5 and 1yr DSs 26 and 23 Teilhard de Chardin..“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.” ...Sounds about right to me.
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