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i think that sure1 was also trying to get me to use the MB concept but @ the same time was listening b/c as sure1 stated "one size doesn't always fit all" so just b/c your WW or WH kept cheating does not mean they all do & just b/c someone did not tell the OP spouse does not mean that is why they cheated again....that sounds like an excuse to me!
I �teach� my guards not to dribble between two defenders as the ball is inevitably stripped away and a turnover results. And every time they do it gives me yet another opportunity to helpfully say for the 50,000 time, �Don�t drive between two defenders. You�ll turn the ball over.� But they just keep on a-trying. And guess what? Every now and then, every blue moon, every one out of 50 attempts; someone makes it stumbling through the defenders with the ball intact. It took 49 turnovers to get there but gosh darnit, didn�t they just show me! See that coach? You�re wrong!
And do you know what I say to the guard when I immediately pull her from the floor? �Don�t drive between two defenders. You�ll turn the ball over.�
But turnovers just lose basketball games. Continued work place contact between adultery partners destroy marriages and devastate families. I am unaware of a single successful recovery where workplace contact remains.
I exposed to the OM�s wife and their workplace. My XW said the adultery was over. She promised to find a new job but it seemed the only one looking for it was me. She refused to quit outright because of �our� financial security. Besides, her X-adultery partner was 65 miles away in a different facility and they would rarely ever see each other. What could possibly go wrong?
21-Days of no contact and withdrawal ended at a single meeting at her facility. A week later she moved out. 4-1/2 Months later the divorce she filed for was final. They live together.
So I guess I was just unlucky.
Good luck to you though.
Testosterone boys! Testosterone! It ain’t just for nose, ear and back hair anymore!
Every time I read where a WS is still working with the AP I cringe because I know exactly where things are headed. I know I said this before, but I only worked 6 days a month and after I ended the A, of the 6, we maybe worked together 1 or 2. When I ended the A it brought relief and neither FOM nor I wanted the A any longer, but regardless I was hooked. Just seeing his car in the parking lot, his name on an work email, or anything related to him kept me hooked.
I never knew ahead of time if I was going to be working with him. If I pulled into the parking lot and saw his car I would feel happy and sad at the same time and if his car was not there I would feel relief and sad at the same time.
My therapist told me to journal and after I confessed the stuff in there just makes me shake my head. Now when I read the stuff I did, said, etc it makes me sick to my stomach. I honestly believed I was on my best behavior because we were not crossing any inappropriate lines or so we thought. Now I can "see" exactly what happened and how it fed my addiction to the A. All those "professional" conversations that had bits and pieces of non-professional idle chit chat, facial expressions, body language, the unnecessary walk-by's, the acknowleging everyone but him days, etc where so harmful. And then my poor H would get to hear all about it because I was being open and honest. I have no idea why he didn't leave me because of what I put him through.
In a sec I will add a snippet from my journal and a prime example of why FAP's cannot stay working together. I hadn't seen my FOM in who knows how long. Docp had recently asked for all the details of the A and I was a complete nervous wreck. When I got to work, FOM was there, I was having a really bad day and to top it off was exposed to TB by a patient. The TB deal was the straw that broke the camels back. I had a meltdown in my FOM's office and almost passed out. I asked him if I could sit for a second and that second of sitting lead to a conversation we never should have had.
We talked about Docp's and his W's reaction, how we all were coping, how stupid and weak we were etc, etc. Even sitting here now I remember the feeling I had and KNEW we should not have been having that conversation, but it was making me feel better when I felt like crap. What I didn't realize was I had just had a big dose fed to my addiction and the whole cycle started again.
Here is the snippet from my journal: (I changed names of course)
"It felt good to talk to him and clear a lot of this up. He even mentioned it was nice that we were able to talk and I feel like he meant it, not in an appropriate way, just a friendly way. (Ah, this from the person who has been avoiding talking to me forever) I felt like I was talking to my 'old friend" the way it was for years before we messed everything up. I told Docp about the whole conversation. He was ok with this conversation, but said he wouldn't be really happy if we started talking all the time. duh!!!!!! I just said I understand and didn't plan on talking to him about anything that wasn't work related."
OK, in all reality Docp was NOT OK with the conversation and told me he didn't care if I was going to faint or not I needed to crawl out of his office, not sit and chat with him. But in my happy place I honestly believed because I told Docp about the conversation it really was OK. I was completely delusional and thought because it made me feel so good, it HAD to be OK.
I had all this going on and I rarely saw my FOM, can you just imagine what is going on when people are seeing each other every day?
Anyway back to NC, I'm not sure if I simply missed it before, but it seems lately we have more who are willing to allow the WS to continue working with the AP and have a zillion and one excuses on why it's OK. I'm never surprised when they find out the A is still ongoing though because I could tell them the details of what is going on during the work day when the WS honestly feels they are on their best behavior.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
When you are taking posters' advice into account, ask yourself some questions: How long have they been posting? How many posts do they have? Have they R'd their M? What is their understanding of the MB concepts?
It's sad that Sure1 would try to diminish the advice you have been given by putting a negative spin on it and call it regurgitating or to suggest that we haven't been "listening" to you.
We are not therapists. Dr Harley is the expert. All we can do is explain how his advice and concepts have helped us or how they have helped other posters here or conversely how not following the concepts have been devastating for us or for others here that we have seen firsthand.
feeling, when I first posted here, I wrote a long post that probably took me over an hour to write. If you click on my name and choose "posts" under the drop down menu and go all the way to my first few posts, you can read it.
At that point I was feeling hopeful after finding this site. My H was remorseful and was begging me for another chance.
Most of the posts I got were not really positive or encouraging. I also felt like people were only focused in on the negative things. But guess what? THANK GOODNESS they were firm and direct with me and warned me about the mistakes I was making. I am so glad that someone like Sure1 did not post to me because I would have written off all the GREAT MB advice I was getting because it was hard to listen to.
Anyway, even tho it may not feel like it, we REALLY are trying to help you and save you more pain and suffering.
Take some time, go to the dr as Pepperband suggested, come back and read through this thread a few times, let it sink in. Don't write MB off just yet. Hang in there
i am so happy to know that someone was actually reading what i was writing.
Read the concepts here, 30.
If you are looking for someone to agree with you and make it OK that you are taking a very dangerous path, you will not find that here. We actually CARE to help you save your marriage. YOU have to care enough to hear the tough stuff. Not just read it, but take it in, listen to your responses. You make lots of excuses, but don't try to find solutions.
One solution for how you are FEELING is to talk to a physician. I would also suggest exercise and proper nutrition.
Another part of the solution is ensuring the appropriate EPs are in place. They are not. NC with OP is imperative. Many of us have suffered false recoveries due to continued contact, even miniscule, seemingly inconsequential encounters.
We ARE trying to help. You are avoiding facing these things, and looking for an easy fix. There are none.
Me-BS-38 Married 1997; son, 8yo Divorced April 2009
30, Having been in recovery for over 10 years, I have to reiterate the advice SL and Melody have given you. You not only want to save your marriage, you want it to be BETTER THAN BEFORE, do you not? MB's will teach you the tools to use to make this possable.
Last edited by cherise; 08/18/1001:26 PM.
6 grands DDay August 15,1998 Reconcilled Mid-Sept.1998 Husband40 FWS, Me 47 BW Fully recovered and moving on!
You know what? I am going to post this on your thread and the other wayward betrayed spouse (I call them wayward, because they are all talk but no action) who wont take any actions......
I am a FWW, I cheated on my beloved husband that I so adore, and right now we are in our 8 month of recovery, I love him with all my heart! I don't want to take any chances of that being ruined! I love him soo much, my sister while she was visiting me said "you guys act like newly weds now, what are you doing?"
Well for the past 4 months my husband has been mentioning about getting back on facebook for my business only, the first 3 months I told him I was not ready. Well, last month I finally joined again he has all my information, passwords, etc and the only friends that are on my facebook account are family, and all of my clients (which are girls)
One day I was looking at a friends facebook page on wheels and I's family account, and I forgot that he was friends with the 2OM well in one of his comments I saw 2OM when he posted a comment, my heart jumped so high! I was soo terrified, and you know what I thought? "I wonder what he's up to" ALL I HAD TO DO was click on his photo to see what he was up to. When I realized how EASY it was to contact the OM and have those FEELINGS come RIGHT back into my life I was soo scared. I told wheels as soon as he came home, that I saw his profile pix (luckily it wasn't of his face, it was just some random pic) But I bet you if I had saw his face, those feelings would have EASILY came back!! I probably wouldn't be able to get on his page since both accounts are blocked, but still, it doesn't matter.
Now remember I have been in recovery for only 7 months, and if something THAT small can trigger me.....what say you if your husband is seeing this woman everyday at work???
IN ORDER FOR YOU MARRIAGE TO WORK HE HAS TO HAVE NO CONTACT WITH THE OW!
susieQ, your post helped me so much & i needed it & really appreciate u taking the time to post it. i wish everyone on here would have talked to me the way they are now & the way u just did b/c i can handle the firm & direct remarks...its the ugly sarcastic remarks that i do not need right now. melody, thank u for reposting that--i needed to read it. chrisner, i am so sorry for what happened to u & your example of using basketball was really good. silent, thank u for trying to help & i am not wanting anyone on here to agree w/me, as i have said i need all of this advice & i hope everyone continues to give me advice & @ the same time listen to me. everyone telling me to talk to a doctor is great advice & i am going but i thought u were suppose to be able to come on here & talk about how u r feeling to others who have been there. i promise u & everyone on here i do not want nor think there is a easy fix, i know this is going to be a LONG-HARD road. cherise, thank u for your post & i am using MB & my H is on board with anything & everything i say, if i want him to quit his job he will if i want to tell the OW's husband, he does not care--my point is my H is 100% willing to do whatever it takes to help put our M back together....does that mean, i trust him or think we r different or think he will never cheat again-NO! i pray all of those things are & will be true but i am not an idiot so therefore i am listening to all of the advice from everyone & that does include sure1. i do not think sure1 was trying to put down MB concepts @ all & i appreciate anyone posting on this thread who is trying to help me thru this. me & my H talked last night as i had stated earlier & he thinks all of u have great points & are right on alot of this....i have decided to tell the OW's husband, i have just got to find the courage to do so. but as far as alot of u saying i am afraid of what the other story will be makes no sense to me b/c i have been talking to the OW for months so there is nothing that would shock me @ this point. i have told u what my fears are & u say they are just excuses but they are honestly not. i would like to state a point of mine about the NC w/out any of u thinking it is an excuse b/c its NOT...it is a FACT. i agree w/MB concept there needs to be NC & yet just as so many of u have said that the WW or WH would see the OP & the A would start up again so would that not mean that the WW or WH was never really sorry & really did not care if it stopped or not? the reason i ask is b/c we can only do so much & if our spouse is that sorry of a person then why would you want to be w/them if they could not control themselves & had those feelings for someone else---i know would not want to be married & spend the rest of my life w/someone like that.
sapphire, that u for telling me your story--it means alot that would share that. let me ask u a couple of questions if u don't mind answering them & if u don't want to-i understand. did u love either 1 of those OM? why does a WW/WH heart jump over those type moments if they are really in love w/their spouse? does it not make the WW/WH sick & hurt to see the OP knowing the pain they caused their spouse? i am not trying to sound heartless b/c i have a huge heart but it does not seem like i should have to worry about every lil' thing like that on top of rebuilding my M. i will use my H for example, if he is not the man of GOD that i think he is to where if he was to run into the OP or see the OP picture & it makes him miss her or have the wrong thoughts....then i am in love w/a man who made more than a mistake, he would not need nor have me in his life anymore.
i agree w/MB concept there needs to be NC & yet just as so many of u have said that the WW or WH would see the OP & the A would start up again so would that not mean that the WW or WH was never really sorry & really did not care if it stopped or not?
30 - you NEED to understand and come to terms with the fact that affairs are addictive. Your husband may be saying all the right things and he may even truly mean them right now but if he comes into contact with OW the addiction can take over. That is why recovering alcoholics stay away from bars! Even if they have every intention of remaining sober, if they go into a bar the addiction can take over and cause them to act even though they had every intention of not doing so.
It sounds like your husband is saying all the right things. That's a good sign, but his actions should 'show' you that as well not just his words.
You are in a vulnerable spot right now. You can do it and recover your marriage, but you must stay on the narrow path to recovery. The good people here are literally drawing you a map to follow to keep you on that path. It's better then GPS!!
30, is your WH reading the concepts here and taking the initiative to put EPs in place? In the end, you can REQUEST what you want for him to do, but the buck stops with him. If he will do whatever it takes, then call the Harleys and start counseling NOW. They are the experts and can lay before you the map for the path that you should be on.
I can almost assure you that they will recommend (strongly) that ALL contact, even only 1 time a month, be stopped. Working at the same company with OW will be a NO NO.
Originally Posted by 30
the WW or WH would see the OP & the A would start up again so would that not mean that the WW or WH was never really sorry
Nope. It would mean that those feelings they had creep back in and it makes it EASIER to make those choices that lead back to the affair. That is why EPs are so very important. Your WH should be making a list of precautions, not just to avoid OW, but to avoid ANY affair. The FIRST step, however, is to end ALL contact with OW and expose the A.
Originally Posted by 30
the reason i ask is b/c we can only do so much & if our spouse is that sorry of a person then why would you want to be w/them if they could not control themselves & had those feelings for someone else---i know would not want to be married & spend the rest of my life w/someone like that.
Well, your WH ALREADY did this, he had an A, so if you really buy into what you say above, shouldn't you have already left? If your spouse controlled himself, you wouldn't be asking these questions. Now that the devastation has been levelled, it's time to man up and put those precautions in place, so that you don't have to constantly worry whether this A, or any other, will ever take place again.
People can be sorry for all sorts of things, it does not change the behavior, nor make up for the offense. Behavior must be modified and amends must be made. So far, you are relying on what actual changes, besides just trying to avoid OW? There are lots of other OW out there just ripe for the picking...how is your WH going to avoid another affair?
Last edited by silentlucidity; 08/18/1001:56 PM. Reason: question mark placement
Me-BS-38 Married 1997; son, 8yo Divorced April 2009
why does a WW/WH heart jump over those type moments if they are really in love w/their spouse? does it not make the WW/WH sick & hurt to see the OP knowing the pain they caused their spouse?
Just wanted to chime in - I'm not a Wayward Spouse, never have been. However, there is something you need to understand about feelings. They are not rational. They just are, they are reactions to stimuli.
A while back I was reading through my Facebook page and saw a picture of a guy I had a HUGE crush on in high school. My heart skipped a beat. I wanted to look into what he was doing. I didn't. I clicked off the page.
When you develop feelings for a person, it doesn't matter how much time has gone by - they're still there. I haven't seen this guy in 10 years. My heart still skipped that beat. My mind was triggered and I experienced the rush of that crush all over again.
Now I love my husband. We have an amazing marriage. When this happened, I immediately went to spend time with him to redirect my feelings into an appropriate channel.
Now if this were more than a crush - if this were a love affair those feelings would be stronger, and more difficult to overcome.
In his mind - he knows what the right thing to do is. He IS really sorry - but that has no affect on the feelings that exist within him. One is rational (my marriage is important) but on the other hand there is the emotional (I get a rush of emotion when I contact this person). The stronger the emotion, the more difficulty the rational has in overcoming it.
That is why NC for LIFE is important.
NC gives the rational a fighting chance to overcome the emotional.
Me & DH: 28 Married 8/20/05 1DD, 9 mo. Just Lookin' and Learnin' HIYA!
mindshare..thank u & i am listening to u & everyone--i promise. my H is not just saying all the right things, he is doing both-taking action on his own & taking action if i want him to. silent..thank u also & yes-my husband is taking intiative on anything & everything. we are already in counseling, i realize it is not w/the harleys but we are in good counseling. u used the word "choices" when u were talking about leading back to the affair & right or wrong this is my opinion...he is a grown man, addiction or not if he makes that "choice" then he did not choose me or our M. with that example i need to clarify, yes he did already do this to me & our M--he should have controlled himself but he has to pay for his own sins, i should not have to pay for what he did. it took everything in me not to leave him right then but i am made that decision to forgive him this ONCE & know that people do make mistakes. i realize he or anyone can make this mistake over & over but there is no excuse, they know the pain it caused their spouse & yet they choose to do it again. to me & YES i could be WRONG but to me that would be a deal breaker! just like people think i am making up excuses, well i think doing it the 2nd, 3rd, etc. time & blaming it on addiction or blaming it on running into the OP is the biggest excuse of all. all of u who have been cheated on, do u not any of what i just said is @ all true? do ya'll not think that ya'll deserve better than that? b/c i know i do, i am a very good person & deserve exactly what i give to my H--the best! silent, i love your point about there being other women out there b/c that is my thoughts exactly...there are men & women everywhere, whether it be attractive people or people trying to boost your ego & tell u the things u want to hear. i am around men all the time & yes sometimes they hit on me but i have the love & will-power for myself, my H & our M to not look nor care what they are trying to say to me. NO-my H did not have that will-power w/this OW & even though he does not work w/her anymore there are still many other women that do work w/him so now what--is he suppose to look for a job w/no women or is he suppose to love & respect me & our M enough to not want to look or have those feeling for anyone but me. all of this said is NOT saying it is okay for him to have contact w/the OW b/c it's not. i am simply saying to avoid another affair w/any women we have to take the steps here on MB & build our marriage back up...not avoid all contact w/any woman or any man. vibrissa..that was a great example & i can totally see exactly what u are saying b/c i dated a guy for 4 years b4 my H & i cared for him. the only thing that would go thru my mind is i wonder how he is--not wanting to see him or be w/him b/c i am so in love w/my H that i do not think twice about anything. i understand the rational vs emotional example & i think it is very true--i just think if u r truely remorseful & love your spouse, the emotions would be gone & the only emotions would be for your spouse.
Could you return twice after paragraphs? It makes them easier to read.
Originally Posted by 30feeling50
blaming it on addiction or blaming it on running into the OP is the biggest excuse of all. all of u who have been cheated on, do u not any of what i just said is @ all true? do ya'll not think that ya'll deserve better than that?
Of course they deserve better than that, and expect more than that. However, you have to realize it IS an addiction. It doesn't excuse the behavior, it just defines it.
If you're an alcoholic, in recovery, you don't go into bars to test your strength, you run the other way.
For the REST OF HIS LIFE his emotions will exist for this OW. That is how emotions work. Like an alcoholic - working with her, seeing her, it's just like walking into a bar, sooner or later he's gonna drink.
Now he can go NC, he can cut her off. He can never see her again. Eventually the emotions will fade, they will go dormant. They will cease to matter or have an affect on your relationship.
That is what Extraordinary Precautions are. They are a protection to ensure he ALWAYS chooses you, from here on out.
But EPs aren't a passive, emotionally driven thing. They are active and ever present behavioral fences.
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is he suppose to look for a job w/no women or is he suppose to love & respect me & our M enough to not want to look or have those feeling for anyone but me.
He has to dramatically change the way he interacts with women for the rest of his life. He puts into place EPs. He does that out of love and respect for you and your marriage, to ensure he only EVER has those feelings for you.
Because emotions are fickle, because we can love many people at once, trusting on the strength of his love is a recipe for failure. You trusted in that once, and he had an affair.
EPs build a wall around his heart that only YOU can get through.
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all of this said is NOT saying it is okay for him to have contact w/the OW b/c it's not. i am simply saying to avoid another affair w/any women we have to take the steps here on MB & build our marriage back up...not avoid all contact w/any woman or any man.
Again, EPs. You can have CONTACT with people of the other sex. You can even be friends, but you CANNOT allow them to meet ANY of your ENs. EVER.
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i just think if u r truely remorseful & love your spouse, the emotions would be gone & the only emotions would be for your spouse.
Emotions don't work that way. It would be nice if they did, but they don't. I assure you if you started talking with that guy you dated. If you started to think of old memories of the times you shared - those feelings would come back FULL FORCE. Happens all the time, so many affairs are between ex-relationships.
But if you put into place EPs. If you focus on your marriage, if you go full NC - the feelings will fade and only the feelings for the spouse will be at the forefront.
But one little slip - and old feelings can come rushing back.
Me & DH: 28 Married 8/20/05 1DD, 9 mo. Just Lookin' and Learnin' HIYA!
Seems you have it all figured out, and know better than Dr. H. I don't know why you even posted in the first place. Really! Maybe YOU should write a book!
Good luck!
P.S. One day you'll figure it out. Hope it's not too late.
Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage ********************* “In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
Yes the first EA I didn't "know" I loved him until after the contact only because I was still in love with my husband, and I was fighting my feelings. The second EA yes I was in love with him, and till this day I do not deny that I loved him, my husband knew that they were real feelings.
why does a WW/WH heart jump over those type moments if they are really in love w/their spouse? does it not make the WW/WH sick & hurt to see the OP knowing the pain they caused their spouse?
For me my heart jumped because I knew that the feelings I had with the OM was real, and I DID NOT want those feelings back into my heart! I know the pain that I have caused wheels, it hurts knowing what I have done, but that still doesn't change the fact that I really did fall in love with this OM. That's why NO CONTACT for life is sooo crucial!! Because every time your husband see's the OW those feelings are still there. No matter how many times he tells you he doesn't think of her that way....he is lying, because if I saw his pix in that comment box those feelings WOULD be there. Why do you think I take soo many precautions for me NOT to see this OM? I am SOOO over BOTH these men, I don't care what they do with their lives, but if I had to see them even if it was twice a week? My marriage would not be where it is today!
i should have to worry about every lil' thing like that on top of rebuilding my M.
If you don't then you are MAKING A HUGE MISTAKE!! You think this affair was nothing? And you shouldn't take every little thing literally? Then sweetie your marriage will not last.
Have you watched Dr Harleys' video on infidelity? If you will only watch one part, I would recommend Part 2...
But I would encourage you to watch it in its entirety on the home page here or by going to Youtube and searching for Marriage Builders.
You need to trust that Dr Harley knows what he is talking about. He is a PhD with decades of experience dealing with helping couples overcome infidelity of all types. He knows what works and doesn't. If you think you know better than him, we aren't really going to be able to get very far advising you on MB concepts...
If you think you know better than him, we aren't really going to be able to get very far advising you on MB concepts...
Ty for that video is was very good!! And I believe this, we can't help anyone who doesn't listen to what we are saying, because what we are saying is what SHarley say's.
vibrissa, thank u so much for responding to me again & answering my questions. u have really helped me, i guess u say things in a way that i can relate to.
i think EP's are very crucial not only for the WW/WH but for everyone. i hate the fact that emotions are fickle but u are right, emotions can be very deceiving.
EN's should never be meet by another person....is huge & i appreciate u pointing that out.
about affairs starting up with ex's, i agree with that. i guess my EP's are better than some others & i also think morals play a part in it with this example...b/c of the way i grew up as a child & teenager, my morals are stronger than any pull that any man could have over me.
i can see having feelings for your ex or the OP. yes it hurts to know that someone u love may have feelings for someone else if they were to see them or think about them but i can & will deal with that.
princess, if me asking questions & just stating my opinion makes u say that i know it all & "I" should write a book then u are the one who is very wrong. thank u for your sarcasm!
thank u sapphire for answering my questions, i hope that did not make u uncomfortable b/c i am just trying to learn--not cause anyone to have to think about old memories.
i do worry about things, i just meant every lil' thing--example, a song comes on the radio that they once listened to & it makes him want to rush back to her. i cannot control everything but i will take precautions & my H has put up his safeguards.
i do NOT think this A was nothing, this A has ruined my life! i am taking this A very seriously, i am just trying to put all the pieces together. on all of these other threads, everyone talks about the WW/WH always being liars & i agree, my H lied to me so many times but once the A came out, he has told me things that hurt me but only b/c i asked all of these questions & needed the truth from him as much as it hurt to hear it, that was what i asked for.
i am not saying that my H is being 100% honest now, i just know from reading other threads that u can have an A w/out loving that OP so all affairs don't equal love. some are just physical & some are about the OP meeting EN's. please, if i am wrong on any of this let me know b/c i have just gathered this from all of the threads.
i also gathered no matter what kind of A you had, they all come w/feelings attached--true or not?
susieQ, i just saw your post & i will go to you tube & watch it all. thank u very much!
i do not think i know better than anyone, just asking questions & giving my opinion on certain things--that does not make me right as i have said so many times.
i am listening to everything everyone is saying & taking it in & i need it & appreciate it.
