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Originally Posted By: Lexxxy
Quote:
They are what she FELT as a result of how I handled this Facebook episode. Those feelings are my responsibility to address by showing care and loving support, ending my Facebook account, etc.


What Mulan is trying to get you to look at is changing your behavior so you are not REPAIRING damage, but PREVENTING damage.
If you had approached the situation with your wife topmost in mind, this never would have happened.
And you wouldn't have to end your account etc.


I do get that Lexxxy. Thanks. Because DWG was at the top of my mind, I instantly told her about the Friend request as it was happening. DWG was sitting at the table with me with our laptops. I told her I was rejecting it, but my decision to send a note of explanation to the woman was just an impulse, and I did not ask DWG about that. When I did it, there was no thought other than not hurting someone's feelings, as hard as that is to believe from a guy like me. But in retrospect, I should have POJA'ed the note, also. Not doing so was an old pattern, an impulse. And it gave no thought as to how DWG would have felt about the note.

This is a good episode for me to learn from and change my patterns. If I don't look at mistakes as opportunities to improve, I am not worth anything. As bad it sounds, I will make more mistakes. Hopefully, they keep decreasing in frequency. As for the Facebook account, I don't even sign in very often. It is more of an annoyance than anything else, as long as DWG has an account to follow our sons' goings on. The MB team regards it as a problem and recommends that no one having had marriage problems have a Facebook account. I am following that recommendation. I am not sitting here feeling loss or sacrifice about it. There is simply no reason for DWG to have any more worries about me than those that cannot be avoided because of the past. She deserves to have as much peace of mind as possible. Other than my giving up breathing, I am prepared to give up just about anything else.

Last edited by GreenMile; 08/18/10 11:02 AM.

FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Another big mistake: This morning, I gave DWG a subscription to the audio service, Pandora. She was enjoying it so much, that she was completely immersed in it. I should have let her just enjoy it, but I wanted to interact with her and talk in the usual way, but there really was no conversation because she was listening, sometimes with earphones. A couple of times, I asked her something, and she either did not hear my questions or was just delaying an answer while she listened to the music. When we went out to do chores, it continued, and, like a selfish little kid, I was feeling kind of alone or ignored instead of taking joy in how much she was enjoying her gift. Her brother, who is living in a bedroom at the barn, came out and asked her if she was in a good mood. She looked at him and said the name of the artist she was listening to. I didn't see that they had made eye contact, and that her response was a real answer of happiness and an actual answer to his question. I kind of felt bad for her brother and said, "did you know that #### was asking you a question."?

Well, this was like stabbing her. She felt that I was treating her like a child and trying to control her use of her gift, after I had given it to her. The level of anger was enormous and remains so even tonight. She said she was going to end the subscription and has not been willing to talk to me all day.

I understand that the main issue is not what I meant by my comment, It is how she felt and what she thought as a result of it, and I injured her once again. This thread is about breaking old patterns, and what I did was conclude something that was wrong instantly in my head and acted on it. I didn't filter my thoughts or stop myself and think how it would sound or be taken by DWG. Now I have set her way back once again and left her angry and hurt and probably ready to give up on me. It was stupid for me to interfere in her interaction with her brother and say something that made her feel controlled and disrespected. Now sitting motionless at the bottom of the roller coaster, just wondering how to convey my sadness at how I made her feel. I just can't seem to put even two days together without making some terrible blunder. In a way, this was very similar to the facebook episode. I was worried about her brother's feelings instead of worrying about DWG's feelings, the one person who is actually of (monumental) importance to me. I didn't take care of her feelings first and foremost. It is not because I don't care or put her number one. It was just an obnoxious interference that happened because I thought she did not hear him accurately due to listening to the music. Boy! Did IT come out wrong.!! How do I learn that my first thought may be just plain wrong? I think something, then I act on it without questioning first in my mind whether it is true or not. This is a very bad habit.

- Feeling sad and disappointed in myself...and discouraged with my ability to make myself better at loving and taking care of DWG. I wanted to give her a surprise present and just blew it. I am so clumsy and incompetent at this.

Let the pounding begin...

Last edited by MBHarmony; 08/18/10 10:37 PM. Reason: editing out name

FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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GM-

I'm not going to pound you. I just wanted to say that this statement is very revealing:
Quote:
like a selfish little kid, I was feeling kind of alone or ignored instead of taking joy in how much she was enjoying her gift


Why do you feel like a lonely, ignored child after you did something that was a gift that was being enjoyed?

I hope you are in IC, because I think some of the issues in your M and R are deeper (and older) than just your behavior during most of your M.


johnstwin-

"I may not know what the future holds, but I know who holds my future." -Martin Luther

Remarried my FXH 25 years to the day of our first M. God is so good-and sometimes so unexpected!

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Originally Posted By: johnstwin
GM-

I'm not going to pound you. I just wanted to say that this statement is very revealing:
Quote:
like a selfish little kid, I was feeling kind of alone or ignored instead of taking joy in how much she was enjoying her gift


Why do you feel like a lonely, ignored child after you did something that was a gift that was being enjoyed?

I hope you are in IC, because I think some of the issues in your M and R are deeper (and older) than just your behavior during most of your M.


I do have some problems that are deeper than I ever realized.

Oh. By the way, DWG was never wearing headphones during this episode. I was wrong about that. I thought that she did for a while. She did nothing wrong at all. I just want to make that clear.

As for your question, I don't really know why I felt that. Seriously. I don't know.

Last edited by GreenMile; 08/18/10 09:23 PM.

FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Quote:
I was worried about her brother's feelings instead of worrying about DWG's feelings


I beg to differ.

I sure hope I can explain this ...

Back to your very first post on the forum ...

Quote:
I am 61 and retired. I have been unfaithful once in 1984 for a brief encounter but carried on a six year "relationship" with a dirtbag that ended on discovery three months ago. I have been an addictive personality all my adult life and a narcissist with a huge ego, though at heart I am a good person.


This is you, doing your thing.

Let's put aside, for now, the lies and obfuscation of the actual depth of your betrayals.
Let's just look at the last bit.

"I am a good person"

Who are you trying to convince when you write such a thing?

The MB peanut gallery?
Complete strangers?
Why?

Are you even aware, that a person who KNOWS they are a "good person" does not feel compelled to convince others of that fact?

Have I ever written "I am a good person" on the MB forum?
No.
Why not?
Because my ability to recognize my own good qualities does not hinge on my convincing others that I am "a good person".
It would never occur to me to even write such a thing.

GM, you are not the first wayward on MB to write "I am a good person" in order to convince others (complete strangers) that they are not a "bad person".

You see, GM, I don't need to announce that I am "a good person" because I know I am not a "bad person".

Here's my 2 cents.

The man in the mirror, the guy who you see shaving every day, is not sure if he is good, or not. In fact, he's pretty sure he is not.
But, he wants to be.

The only way you know how to take your own measure ~~~> What is reflected in the opinions of others? What do I look like to ~~~> that person over there.

So, you say to a suspect man-fishing FB widow, "I like you a lot" ... when you don't like her a little.
Why?
You say it is to spare her feelings.
I say, it is to gain her favorable opinion so that you can feel better about yourself.

You were really not concerned with DWG's brother's feelings.
You wanted to look good ....

GM, isn't it exhausting?
The reflected sense of self?

A reflected sense of self is a never-ending appetite to be "stroked" by others. (for the lack of a better word)

Now, getting stroked by others is not a bad thing.
Sometimes we earn that.

I'd like you to imagine what you might think of yourself if you did not rely on the approval and stroking of outsiders ...

Are you "a good person" ?

Now, go back and re-read that first post of yours.

You were lying to us.
And you wanted us to believe you are a good person.
While you were lying.

Can you see the problem with this?

Are you a good man if no one but you is around?

Think about it.

Take care.

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Originally Posted By: Pepperband
Quote:
I was worried about her brother's feelings instead of worrying about DWG's feelings


I beg to differ.

I sure hope I can explain this ...

Back to your very first post on the forum ...

Quote:
I am 61 and retired. I have been unfaithful once in 1984 for a brief encounter but carried on a six year "relationship" with a dirtbag that ended on discovery three months ago. I have been an addictive personality all my adult life and a narcissist with a huge ego, though at heart I am a good person.


This is you, doing your thing.

Let's put aside, for now, the lies and obfuscation of the actual depth of your betrayals.
Let's just look at the last bit.

"I am a good person"

Who are you trying to convince when you write such a thing?

The MB peanut gallery?
Complete strangers?
Why?

Are you even aware, that a person who KNOWS they are a "good person" does not feel compelled to convince others of that fact?

Have I ever written "I am a good person" on the MB forum?
No.
Why not?
Because my ability to recognize my own good qualities does not hinge on my convincing others that I am "a good person".
It would never occur to me to even write such a thing.

GM, you are not the first wayward on MB to write "I am a good person" in order to convince others (complete strangers) that they are not a "bad person".

You see, GM, I don't need to announce that I am "a good person" because I know I am not a "bad person".

Here's my 2 cents.

The man in the mirror, the guy who you see shaving every day, is not sure if he is good, or not. In fact, he's pretty sure he is not.
But, he wants to be.

The only way you know how to take your own measure ~~~> What is reflected in the opinions of others? What do I look like to ~~~> that person over there.

So, you say to a suspect man-fishing FB widow, "I like you a lot" ... when you don't like her a little.
Why?
You say it is to spare her feelings.
I say, it is to gain her favorable opinion so that you can feel better about yourself.

You were really not concerned with DWG's brother's feelings.
You wanted to look good ....

GM, isn't it exhausting?
The reflected sense of self?

A reflected sense of self is a never-ending appetite to be "stroked" by others. (for the lack of a better word)

Now, getting stroked by others is not a bad thing.
Sometimes we earn that.

I'd like you to imagine what you might think of yourself if you did not rely on the approval and stroking of outsiders ...

Are you "a good person" ?

Now, go back and re-read that first post of yours.

You were lying to us.
And you wanted us to believe you are a good person.
While you were lying.

Can you see the problem with this?

Are you a good man if no one but you is around?

Think about it.

Take care.






You're right, PB. About everything.

I'm frightened. I am not a "good person". I am deeply flawed and have wrought sadness and enormous damage. I am nothing like I thought I was. I am an easy liar and live in a fantasy world, where unless it is revolving around me, I get agitated and resentful. Ideas that pop into my head become truth rather than just a daydream. For the first time, I am really frightened. I thought I was getting better, getting well, after that breakdown, but I need a power much greater than myself to help me. For the first time, I have deep doubts about whether I can become the person that DWG needs and deserves. TST is so kind and has been calling and coaching and helping me. He was able to change and learn. I want to be like him, but I just can't seem to break through. Sometimes, I think I am making some steps. Then, it just vanishes. Trying to have faith.


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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You need a psychiatrist.
You're not dumb as dirt.
You are sick. You have an illness.
You need treatment.

Take care.

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Originally Posted By: GreenMile
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
Quote:
I was worried about her brother's feelings instead of worrying about DWG's feelings


I beg to differ.

I sure hope I can explain this ...

Back to your very first post on the forum ...

Quote:
I am 61 and retired. I have been unfaithful once in 1984 for a brief encounter but carried on a six year "relationship" with a dirtbag that ended on discovery three months ago. I have been an addictive personality all my adult life and a narcissist with a huge ego, though at heart I am a good person.


This is you, doing your thing.

Let's put aside, for now, the lies and obfuscation of the actual depth of your betrayals.
Let's just look at the last bit.

"I am a good person"

Who are you trying to convince when you write such a thing?

The MB peanut gallery?
Complete strangers?
Why?

Are you even aware, that a person who KNOWS they are a "good person" does not feel compelled to convince others of that fact?

Have I ever written "I am a good person" on the MB forum?
No.
Why not?
Because my ability to recognize my own good qualities does not hinge on my convincing others that I am "a good person".
It would never occur to me to even write such a thing.

GM, you are not the first wayward on MB to write "I am a good person" in order to convince others (complete strangers) that they are not a "bad person".

You see, GM, I don't need to announce that I am "a good person" because I know I am not a "bad person".

Here's my 2 cents.

The man in the mirror, the guy who you see shaving every day, is not sure if he is good, or not. In fact, he's pretty sure he is not.
But, he wants to be.

The only way you know how to take your own measure ~~~> What is reflected in the opinions of others? What do I look like to ~~~> that person over there.

So, you say to a suspect man-fishing FB widow, "I like you a lot" ... when you don't like her a little.
Why?
You say it is to spare her feelings.
I say, it is to gain her favorable opinion so that you can feel better about yourself.

You were really not concerned with DWG's brother's feelings.
You wanted to look good ....

GM, isn't it exhausting?
The reflected sense of self?

A reflected sense of self is a never-ending appetite to be "stroked" by others. (for the lack of a better word)

Now, getting stroked by others is not a bad thing.
Sometimes we earn that.

I'd like you to imagine what you might think of yourself if you did not rely on the approval and stroking of outsiders ...

Are you "a good person" ?

Now, go back and re-read that first post of yours.

You were lying to us.
And you wanted us to believe you are a good person.
While you were lying.

Can you see the problem with this?

Are you a good man if no one but you is around?

Think about it.

Take care.






You're right, PB. About everything.

I'm frightened. I am not a "good person". I am deeply flawed and have wrought sadness and enormous damage. I am nothing like I thought I was. I am an easy liar and live in a fantasy world, where unless it is revolving around me, I get agitated and resentful. Ideas that pop into my head become truth rather than just a daydream. For the first time, I am really frightened. I thought I was getting better, getting well, after that breakdown, but I need a power much greater than myself to help me. For the first time, I have deep doubts about whether I can become the person that DWG needs and deserves. TST is so kind and has been calling and coaching and helping me. He was able to change and learn. I want to be like him, but I just can't seem to break through. Sometimes, I think I am making some steps. Then, it just vanishes. Trying to have faith.



GM, it's not about hoping it works. You commit and you do. There may be mistakes, but committing to being a good person - NOT as reflected by other people, as Pep brilliantly pointed out - will get you much further than "I just can't seem to."

EVERYthing is a chance to learn and do better. As you can see, your first thoughts and instincts are not always correct. Practice, practice, practice being humble, admitting honest fault, learning.

Commit. And do.


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Hey, GreenMile, I am unfortunately not getting all of the Marriage Builders forum time I would like right now, but I am still trying to follow your situation, and thinking about you a lot.

I'm a little bit behind but I want to respond to some earlier posts because there's something that I think you needed to hear that I don't feel was said quite to my satisfaction.

When you say that your wife is obsessing over something, you are
Disrespectfully Judging her. You have decided that she should not be thinking about something as much as she is thinking about it, and your judgment of her is an instinct to try to control her to get her to not think about it as much, more at a level that you think is appropriate. You probably believe this is appropriate because you believe this is best for her. But it does not matter how you defend or rationalize it: the fact is that you are committing a disrespectful judgment, which is a serious and abusive love buster.

Regardless of what you meant by "obsessive," the clear facts are that you believe your wife should stop thinking about it so much because it is hindering recovery. And you are trying to figure out how to help her to stop thinking about it so much. It's clearly very important to you because you've identified this as the major stumbling block for recovery right now.

But this is a Disrespectful Judgment, staring you in the face. You are judging how much your wife should be thinking about this. Whatever stumbling blocks to recovery your wife might have right now, a DJ from you is clearly a major stumbling block for recovery. And if you've missed this one, is it not possible that you've missed other stumbling blocks on your part? These are things you can take care of. You cannot take care of what your wife is thinking.

It doesn't matter if Dr. Willard Harley, Jr., PhD, himself comes to your door, sits down on your couch, and tells DWG that she should stop thinking these thoughts so much. YOU absolutely have to refrain from telling her that or sending her that message. It is a Disrespectful Judgment coming from you. It is controlling coming from you. You believe recovery will be helped if she diminishes the frequency of these thoughts. Your wife does not believe this, and she doesn't have to. If you want to influence what your wife believes about this, then use Respectful Persuasion (detailed in the Disrespectful Judgments chapter of love busters and here), not Disrespectful Judgments. If you can't refrain from Disrespectful Judgments on the subject, then refrain completely from trying to sway her on the issue, and leave it to the professionals and others. We don't have to get this woman in love with us. Dr. Harley can say things to DWG that you simply cannot and should not, if you want her to be in love with you.

The last thing DWG wants is for you to teach her Marriage Builders, even in one small point.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted By: Pepperband
You need a psychiatrist.
You're not dumb as dirt.
You are sick. You have an illness.
You need treatment.

Take care.


I am making an appointment in the morning.


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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pray

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Originally Posted By: Mrs_Vanilla
Originally Posted By: GreenMile
Originally Posted By: Pepperband
Quote:
I was worried about her brother's feelings instead of worrying about DWG's feelings


I beg to differ.

I sure hope I can explain this ...

Back to your very first post on the forum ...

Quote:
I am 61 and retired. I have been unfaithful once in 1984 for a brief encounter but carried on a six year "relationship" with a dirtbag that ended on discovery three months ago. I have been an addictive personality all my adult life and a narcissist with a huge ego, though at heart I am a good person.


This is you, doing your thing.

Let's put aside, for now, the lies and obfuscation of the actual depth of your betrayals.
Let's just look at the last bit.

"I am a good person"

Who are you trying to convince when you write such a thing?

The MB peanut gallery?
Complete strangers?
Why?

Are you even aware, that a person who KNOWS they are a "good person" does not feel compelled to convince others of that fact?

Have I ever written "I am a good person" on the MB forum?
No.
Why not?
Because my ability to recognize my own good qualities does not hinge on my convincing others that I am "a good person".
It would never occur to me to even write such a thing.

GM, you are not the first wayward on MB to write "I am a good person" in order to convince others (complete strangers) that they are not a "bad person".

You see, GM, I don't need to announce that I am "a good person" because I know I am not a "bad person".

Here's my 2 cents.

The man in the mirror, the guy who you see shaving every day, is not sure if he is good, or not. In fact, he's pretty sure he is not.
But, he wants to be.

The only way you know how to take your own measure ~~~> What is reflected in the opinions of others? What do I look like to ~~~> that person over there.

So, you say to a suspect man-fishing FB widow, "I like you a lot" ... when you don't like her a little.
Why?
You say it is to spare her feelings.
I say, it is to gain her favorable opinion so that you can feel better about yourself.

You were really not concerned with DWG's brother's feelings.
You wanted to look good ....

GM, isn't it exhausting?
The reflected sense of self?

A reflected sense of self is a never-ending appetite to be "stroked" by others. (for the lack of a better word)

Now, getting stroked by others is not a bad thing.
Sometimes we earn that.

I'd like you to imagine what you might think of yourself if you did not rely on the approval and stroking of outsiders ...

Are you "a good person" ?

Now, go back and re-read that first post of yours.

You were lying to us.
And you wanted us to believe you are a good person.
While you were lying.

Can you see the problem with this?

Are you a good man if no one but you is around?

Think about it.

Take care.






You're right, PB. About everything.

I'm frightened. I am not a "good person". I am deeply flawed and have wrought sadness and enormous damage. I am nothing like I thought I was. I am an easy liar and live in a fantasy world, where unless it is revolving around me, I get agitated and resentful. Ideas that pop into my head become truth rather than just a daydream. For the first time, I am really frightened. I thought I was getting better, getting well, after that breakdown, but I need a power much greater than myself to help me. For the first time, I have deep doubts about whether I can become the person that DWG needs and deserves. TST is so kind and has been calling and coaching and helping me. He was able to change and learn. I want to be like him, but I just can't seem to break through. Sometimes, I think I am making some steps. Then, it just vanishes. Trying to have faith.



GM, it's not about hoping it works. You commit and you do. There may be mistakes, but committing to being a good person - NOT as reflected by other people, as Pep brilliantly pointed out - will get you much further than "I just can't seem to."

EVERYthing is a chance to learn and do better. As you can see, your first thoughts and instincts are not always correct. Practice, practice, practice being humble, admitting honest fault, learning.

Commit. And do.


Most of the time, my first thoughts ARE wrong. Feeling agitated, non-specifically, when things are not going according to the story line I have concocted for myself at the moment, is the first clue. That always happens right before I behave badly. I felt really agitated this morning before I said that to DWG. I look for others to follow my scenario in order to "be happy". DWG was in my scene, but she was not following the script.

Early in this process, when I first came here after DWG had been here awhile, I read a lot of posts that opined that I was a narcissist. After reading about that disorder, I concluded that I had some of those features but not really all, and that I didn't fit that very well. I felt I was more "narcissoid". When I was in the hospital for a few days, I asked the psychiatrist in a later follow-up appointment for my meds if I fit that. He didn't think so, but that is not his specialty. And, of course, I most likely slicked over some things and lied to make myself look less ill than I am, other than the acute depression after the D-day earthquake. But I am making an appointment and going back and will open up honestly and fill in many of the things I am learning here from others. Though I told Mulan to back off yesterday, which I regret, she has posted to DWG on her thread and explained something profound. I'm not the fake wizard in the Wizard of Oz. I am the tin man, scarecrow, and cowardly lion, and I have been looking for a wizard to give me a heart and a brain, and courage. Nothing could be truer. At the end of that story, they find that they get those things from within, that they were there all the time, not from an imaginary wizard. I think I know how I got to this place, but I probably will not be able to punch my way out myself just by sheer force of will or just doing, as much as I would like to. I am going to need professional help. I'm ready.


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
Joined: Oct 2000
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You know, I think you do, that my H is very active in his AA program.
Before he embraced that program, he was one sick puppy.
And, unless he committed to AA and his own mental health, I was D.O.N.E. with him.

Here's one of the many "slogans" that I like:

We are only as sick as our secrets.

I'm praying for you, whether you like it or not !
stickout

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Originally Posted By: markos
Hey, GreenMile, I am unfortunately not getting all of the Marriage Builders forum time I would like right now, but I am still trying to follow your situation, and thinking about you a lot.

I'm a little bit behind but I want to respond to some earlier posts because there's something that I think you needed to hear that I don't feel was said quite to my satisfaction.

When you say that your wife is obsessing over something, you are
Disrespectfully Judging her. You have decided that she should not be thinking about something as much as she is thinking about it, and your judgment of her is an instinct to try to control her to get her to not think about it as much, more at a level that you think is appropriate. You probably believe this is appropriate because you believe this is best for her. But it does not matter how you defend or rationalize it: the fact is that you are committing a disrespectful judgment, which is a serious and abusive love buster.

Regardless of what you meant by "obsessive," the clear facts are that you believe your wife should stop thinking about it so much because it is hindering recovery. And you are trying to figure out how to help her to stop thinking about it so much. It's clearly very important to you because you've identified this as the major stumbling block for recovery right now.

But this is a Disrespectful Judgment, staring you in the face. You are judging how much your wife should be thinking about this. Whatever stumbling blocks to recovery your wife might have right now, a DJ from you is clearly a major stumbling block for recovery. And if you've missed this one, is it not possible that you've missed other stumbling blocks on your part? These are things you can take care of. You cannot take care of what your wife is thinking.

It doesn't matter if Dr. Willard Harley, Jr., PhD, himself comes to your door, sits down on your couch, and tells DWG that she should stop thinking these thoughts so much. YOU absolutely have to refrain from telling her that or sending her that message. It is a Disrespectful Judgment coming from you. It is controlling coming from you. You believe recovery will be helped if she diminishes the frequency of these thoughts. Your wife does not believe this, and she doesn't have to. If you want to influence what your wife believes about this, then use Respectful Persuasion (detailed in the Disrespectful Judgments chapter of love busters and here), not Disrespectful Judgments. If you can't refrain from Disrespectful Judgments on the subject, then refrain completely from trying to sway her on the issue, and leave it to the professionals and others. We don't have to get this woman in love with us. Dr. Harley can say things to DWG that you simply cannot and should not, if you want her to be in love with you.

The last thing DWG wants is for you to teach her Marriage Builders, even in one small point.


Thanks, Markos, once again, for a very thoughtful post and for thinking about me and our situation. DWG was truly stuck with a recurrent thought about comparing my feelings for OW at the time of the affair with my feelings for DWG and feeling that she could never match up to the feelings I had with OW, and it was literally driving her up the wall. She was dreaming about it and thinking about it all day, and getting only a couple hours of sleep per day. Yes, I wanted to find out here what I could do to help her. Was that really trying to control her? Was that disrespectful?


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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**edit**

Last edited by Revera; 08/19/10 07:35 AM. Reason: TOS disrespectful
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**edit**

Last edited by Revera; 08/19/10 07:37 AM. Reason: TOS personal attack
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Originally Posted By: Pepperband
You know, I think you do, that my H is very active in his AA program.
Before he embraced that program, he was one sick puppy.
And, unless he committed to AA and his own mental health, I was D.O.N.E. with him.

Here's one of the many "slogans" that I like:

We are only as sick as our secrets.

I'm praying for you, whether you like it or not !
stickout


Thank you. I'll take it. I know others here are busting their butts trying to help me, also. I know of no other place where something like this is available to people in need.


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
Joined: Jan 2009
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Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
**edit**


Nice. Sounds like you have it all figured out, Bubb. And how much baggage are you carrying?

Last edited by Revera; 08/19/10 07:35 AM. Reason: removing quote

FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Originally Posted By: GreenMile
Originally Posted By: markos
Hey, GreenMile, I am unfortunately not getting all of the Marriage Builders forum time I would like right now, but I am still trying to follow your situation, and thinking about you a lot.

I'm a little bit behind but I want to respond to some earlier posts because there's something that I think you needed to hear that I don't feel was said quite to my satisfaction.

When you say that your wife is obsessing over something, you are
Disrespectfully Judging her. You have decided that she should not be thinking about something as much as she is thinking about it, and your judgment of her is an instinct to try to control her to get her to not think about it as much, more at a level that you think is appropriate. You probably believe this is appropriate because you believe this is best for her. But it does not matter how you defend or rationalize it: the fact is that you are committing a disrespectful judgment, which is a serious and abusive love buster.

Regardless of what you meant by "obsessive," the clear facts are that you believe your wife should stop thinking about it so much because it is hindering recovery. And you are trying to figure out how to help her to stop thinking about it so much. It's clearly very important to you because you've identified this as the major stumbling block for recovery right now.

But this is a Disrespectful Judgment, staring you in the face. You are judging how much your wife should be thinking about this. Whatever stumbling blocks to recovery your wife might have right now, a DJ from you is clearly a major stumbling block for recovery. And if you've missed this one, is it not possible that you've missed other stumbling blocks on your part? These are things you can take care of. You cannot take care of what your wife is thinking.

It doesn't matter if Dr. Willard Harley, Jr., PhD, himself comes to your door, sits down on your couch, and tells DWG that she should stop thinking these thoughts so much. YOU absolutely have to refrain from telling her that or sending her that message. It is a Disrespectful Judgment coming from you. It is controlling coming from you. You believe recovery will be helped if she diminishes the frequency of these thoughts. Your wife does not believe this, and she doesn't have to. If you want to influence what your wife believes about this, then use Respectful Persuasion (detailed in the Disrespectful Judgments chapter of love busters and here), not Disrespectful Judgments. If you can't refrain from Disrespectful Judgments on the subject, then refrain completely from trying to sway her on the issue, and leave it to the professionals and others. We don't have to get this woman in love with us. Dr. Harley can say things to DWG that you simply cannot and should not, if you want her to be in love with you.

The last thing DWG wants is for you to teach her Marriage Builders, even in one small point.


Thanks, Markos, once again, for a very thoughtful post and for thinking about me and our situation. DWG was truly stuck with a recurrent thought about comparing my feelings for OW at the time of the affair with my feelings for DWG and feeling that she could never match up to the feelings I had with OW, and it was literally driving her up the wall. She was dreaming about it and thinking about it all day, and getting only a couple hours of sleep per day. Yes, I wanted to find out here what I could do to help her. Was that really trying to control her? Was that disrespectful?


Yes, it was. You have a rationalization and a justification. They sound like a good rationalization and a good justification. But they still don't justify you wanting to CHANGE your wife's feelings.

Read what I said again: you are not trying to INFLUENCE your wife's thinking with respectful persuasion. You are trying to CHANGE your wife's thinking with disrespectful judgment. You won't take no for an answer, because you won't accept failure. But disrespectful judgment like this dooms you to failure.

The way you help your wife is by taking care of her, not by trying to change her negative feelings. Become the kind of person she feels good about all the time. (Hint: that person never becomes frustrated at her for not thinking in a way that he believes is more healthy.)

Disrespectful judgment for you wife is written all over these last many posts. It is obvious that you know what your wife should do and are focusing on that instead of on what you should do.

Do your part and let her worry about hers. She is not the obstacle you face right now.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted By: GreenMile
Most of the time, my first thoughts ARE wrong. Feeling agitated, non-specifically, when things are not going according to the story line I have concocted for myself at the moment, is the first clue. That always happens right before I behave badly. I felt really agitated this morning before I said that to DWG. I look for others to follow my scenario in order to "be happy". DWG was in my scene, but she was not following the script.


That's the essence of control and disrespectful judgment. People are not doing what you think they should be doing. That agitation you feel is the beginning of the escalation to the next, even worse, form of abuse and control: angry outburst.

GM, are you talking with your coach about eliminating the abusive Love Busters: Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, Angry Outbursts? TRUST ME, you have got to get rid of these.

Your wife is not recovering because this far into recovery you are still practicing abuse and control.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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