Hi,
I am a new member but have been reading this board for a few months. I have read the many articles and as much as I can to try and get help. Now the story my Wife and I have been together for almost 8 years we are 33 and 30. We have had a very happy relationship full of so many great memories, we never had fights we always respected each other and cared as best we could. A few years ago I became ill with a serious health problem which thankfully I was able to largely overcome. But the whole experience was very traumatic and left me with depression and anxiety that these would maybe one day return. It was around the time of these problems that my wife began to spend more time at work. She is a very dedicated and hard worker. It became not uncommon for late nights up to 4 times a week.

Understandably this made me feel very upset that my wife couldn't put me ahead of her work. I tried every way I could to try to explain how much this was hurting me and how much I wanted to have a normal relationship where we could spend as much time together as possible. She has a tough boss who subjected her to a lot of pressure, whenever she got home she was tired or stressed or outright depressed. I was the one always there to listen to her and do everything I could to help, my advice was never acted on and she just kept on going ahead with these crazy hours and i kept putting up with a distant wife and one in utter exhaustion.

Ever since my illness I had been on anti depressant drugs to counter anxiety. My wife also was prescribed with some to deal with her stress and depression that was being caused by what we were both going through. None of us really spoke about these difficulties as by now things were so distant between us. We were still getting along well and did things together and had fun when we could. I tried numerous times to organise holidays in the hope of helping my wife and showing her that i cared and wanted to spend time with her, I found it hard to hide the feelings of the lack of intimacy and respect that i felt from her due to the work situation. It lead to me building up intense anger at the situation and at her employer and why she kept doing this to me.

This lead to even more distancing from my wife and her taking up further study which meant i saw even less of her. This was what lead to where we now are. Around this time I organised another trip away hoping this could reconnect us and put things back on track. We both wanted a family and wanted to start working towards that. I however could not do this under the circumstances at the time, I needed a wife that was spending more time with me and who i felt wanted to be around at home. We spoke at length about this on our holiday and both agreed to start planning and doing what we needed to for this to happen. On returning things did not change and she was spending more hours away than ever. the study she had been doing for 3mths was the main cause. it became more and more clear something was very wrong.

My wife was becoming rude and completely shut off from me. leading to a night out with her work mates and a very late night it was. The next morning she was very weird and even more distant. I quizzed her about this and it was at this time she admitted to kissing another man that night. It turned out to be a lecturer from where she was studying. She told me a fair bit about this but would not agree to trying to fix our marriage. All affection stopped overnight, i am no longer able to even touch her, or show any for of affection. She did eventually agree to stop contact with this man (who is 10 years older with a family and recently divorced) We began counselling, each individually. This counsellor at our intial meeting blamed me for what had happened and got quite stuck into my past and the fact that I hadnt had the perfect childhood. Things remained terrible between us for some weeks and eventually i asked if she was still contacting this man, she admitted to still calling him. I later discovered an extensive list of phone calls and messages. She again agreed to not contact and once again broke the promise. Eventually leading to what im told anyhow that he told her he wanted no more to do with her.

We have continued counselling and still only do so individually while he works on "individual issues" I badly feel the need to get in there and work on the present not the past. My wife though can still not tell me she wants to try to fix the marriage, even after 3months of life in limbo. She wont leave but wont tell me that she is wanting or trying. She is very distant and still admits to feelings for this other guy.

I love my wife deeply and want to just get over these issues and getting on with our lives how much time does this take to get over this. How can I make her see she is in a bad place. She sent me an message one day confessing her love for me then a few days later retracted it. She is so rude to me and my family. Her family does not contact either of us and will not even respond to my emails asking for assistance. I have little to no confidence in my counsellor who is so stuck on past issues. My wife shows no affection and acts embarrassed to even be near me, we currently have no intimacy and she just spends her time making painful comments to me. Am I crazy to put up with this and try to fix it? how do i try to help her? how do i cope with this? how do I restore things?

Welcome to the MB, the best place to be in your circumstances.

Have you read all materials here? If not I strongly suggest to do that immediately.

But I will make a quick overview to get you started.

As dr Harley (founder of MB) says, there is only narrow path that leads to recovery after the affair. Basically, it boils down to following steps (pay attention to the sequence!)

1. Ending the affair
2. Ensuring No Contact (for life)
3. Overcoming withdrawal
4. Recovery


As I read from your story
a)your wife is still deep in her affair and is contacting her affair partner as much as she likes.
b)your counsellor sucks and does not have a clue how to save your marriage

So, you have to put an end to the affair first.
The most powerful weapon to kill the affair is the exposure. Have you read about that in forums here?

Thanks, I have read all the material I could get my hands on, I have exposed what happened to my parents, her parents and friends. I believe that no more is happening but my wife still does harbour feelings for him. All she now says is that she still feels something for him but "im not sure how seriously" but in the meantime she treats me very poorly shows no affection or concern for me. Other than not being able to leave. I have tried to play it tough, it didnt work, i tried to ignore things that didnt appear to work. So now im not sure what to do. Other than just give it time which is incredibly hard when the person you love continues to abuse you. Looking at your list I feel we are barely over stage 1 and she is not yet over stage 1 in that she still harbours feelings. How do I get through to her. Her family has offered me no support they just ignore what is going on and make it seem like its no big deal to walk out on a husband. It feels like there is no concern from her for what the meaning of marriage even is.

Have you verified this? Not by asking from your WW of course.

Is there ANY kind of contact between them?

Honestly, if this is what marriage is going to be like with her after less than 2 years, why do you want to stay married to this woman? I have a bridge to sell you if you think she just kissed this guy. Your wife completely ignores you, cheats on you, and has no regrets for what she has done. Do you think she'll magically change in the future? No, you staying with her will just reinforce her behavior. I think you are headed toward a neglected and abusive future with this entitled woman if you stay with her. The only thing I would do is put the wheels in motion for a divorce, and if and only if she starts changing at that point would I reconsider salvaging the marriage. You can't fit a square peg in a round whole, and if you married an unsuitable mate, no amount of "trying" is going to change that. To me she sounds completely self-centered and you will never be an equal partner in this relationship. I bet if you removed yourself from this relationship, eventually you would feel the same way.

I know this is not the answer you probably want to hear, but you need to. Let me preface this by saying, I normally am very pro-marriage and really try to help others save their marriage, but when I see a situation like yours, I have to speak up. Married only a brief time, no kids, still young, you need to move on and find someone better. Quit trying to make her who you want her to be.

I wouldn't stay married to this woman either. If you do not have kids then here is an opportunity to cut and run. There is a long future ahead of yourself to being treated this way. On top of that you do need to work on yourself with or without her.

However, I understand that you deeply love this abusive, selfish, dismissive woman and want to work things out. If you really want to Recover this depressive marriage then you need evidence of her affair. Her behaviour is the same as someone still in affair, and you need evidence of it all. This may have been going on for some time and felt bad at the time she kissed him. Who really knows the truth of it all and how deep it really goes.

Second is your exposure. Was it mild like "my wife kissed another man, but we are working it out."? If I heard this I would say "well shame on her, but at least they are working it out". If you say, "My wife is having an affair with so-and-so, I have evidence to prove it." Well this is much bolder and lets people know the urgency of your situation.

Third is that no one should have a job that demands so much time of them. If you two are not able to spend at least 15 hours of Undivided Attention with each other then your marriage will not be in a good spot. A date here, and a vacation every so often does nothing.

Fourth get yourself out of depression. Im not a doctor or a psychologist, but it is ruining you and your marriage. You need to work on yourself, become a better person. Pick someone that you really like, and pretend to be that person, dress like them act like them, tackle things that they would tackle. My wife says fake it until you make it.

Fifth, go tell that IC that he is wrong. You did not force your wife into the arms of another man, that was her fault. You just played a part in making an unhappy marriage. You can change your behaviour, but you can't change your wife from having an affair. Leave and do not go back to that IC. I am up in arms having the IC tell you that it is your fault, this is really bad judegemnt.

I agree...with a couple things!

1.) Your wife is very abusive, does not respect you, and will never respect you until you actually FIGHT for her!

2.) Fire your counselor! IC or MC can not help a wayward want to know why? Because they will LIE to them, just like I lied to my MC, they cannot help anyone who lies, she will tell him all the horrible things you did to her and not ONE good thing you did. Why do you think he blames you???

3.) You need to do a better exposure! If your first exposure was not affective you did it wrong, tell EVERYONE!! Friends, family, co-workers, neighbors, OM's family and friends. Get on her FB and the OM's FB and send them all a mass email about your wife's affair. Wheels exposed me on facebook, he just posted it

4.) If your wife won't change and she won't file for a divorce then you need to start that process.

Have you thought about putting a kyelogger on her computer? Or a VAR in her car? I suggest you start gather all the information on her affair, 95% chance is that this affair started when she was working those late hours at the office. Why do you think she would come home mad, angry, depressed, etc? You think it was because of work?? Sorry my friend, but those are signs of a spouse feeling guilty of having an affair.

Thanks for the responses, I have a session today with our marriage counsellor, I intend to put an end to my sessions with him. I feel the sessions have become lost and focus on issues that are not at the heart of this relationship. For whatever reason all blame has been allocated to me something which i am now strong enough to see is completely unfair and untrue. I went through a serious illness my wife initially stuck by me through this and was great. Her job stresses and pressures pulled her away from me in a time of need. I was left with a very vacant and distant wife who was so exhausted all the time. Feeling like I did at this time it was not possible for me to ignore what she was doing and continue to be a perfect husband. I tried to address countless time the overwork and nothing was ever changed.

I have cancelled all future plans with my wife and have told her I do not wish to continue the charade we are in. When or if she can come back with an attitude of wanting to fix things I will again open up and try. In the meantime I will try to focus on myself. She will not leave the house and I also refuse to do so. In fact we are still in the same room. I feel my wife is close to a breakdown she is very irrational and all over the place. Much of the time acting like nothing is wrong, speaking of the future etc. and the next telling me she wont wear a wedding ring. She says the usual i love you but im not in love, has said she doesnt find me physically attractive, despite the fact i look the same as the day I met her if not more healthy.

I feel like I have become her latest scapegoat for why she is not happy. I am the easy one to blame and hurt in order to make her feel better about herself. Her/our counsellor has her believing she has done no wrong, she tells me that I over reacted to her emotional affair and kissing and lies. The counsellor has fed her this belief. She is in this position now with her head full of crap and no sense of responsibility for what she has done or the commitment she has made. I am in a situation now with a wife who i believe could be in seriously bad way, who wont let me help, show care, blocks all affection but will not leave...

I am considering ringing her parents and telling them to take some responsibility and step up and help. I feel worried and concerned but I cant shoulder the responsibility alone. Clearly the counsellor is not getting her anywhere she is worse than before we started with him.

Its so hard to know what to do...

Thanks, In response to your points..
1) Im trying my best to fight, I am getting on with my life. I am taking a tough stand point, I have spread word of the affair. Where I fall down is by keeping bring things up in the hope she will click out of this. But maybe this comes across as begging I dont know.
2) Intend on this today, and will reconsider based on progress. But for now I am wrapped up and have spent $1000's on this, and we havent progressed. I have brought up issues that have not been raised with my wife in sessions, eg impact of her anti depressants and the possibility of them blocking emotions a known side effect. The work hour situation and the affair. This has fallen all back to me that each of these has been due to my "emotional distancing" the way I see it my wife disappeared on me to instead focus on work and then has the nerve to complain that i was not a "perfect" husband. But the way i see it the ball was in her court in that regard and she created her own distance and i was pushed into it, not knowing how to bring her back in, but I tried, and I never cheated, the counsellor has completely discounted this though and it was "just a slip up" that I over reacted to and it was "just a kiss" well to me it is more the emotional side and the fact my wife has now come to believe these things yet can still admit her love of this OM to me. My wife is very good a disguising things and im sure she prob has the wool over this guys eyes she comes across as kind and compassionate to others even at the moment despite what she is doing. Through all this not a tear has been shed by her.
3) I have told everybody I feel who has a right to know, except the OM who I have said nothing to, and have taken the stand point of not wasting my time on a worthless person. Indeed a lecturer who preys on students.
4) What I am not sure about is that I dont feel I want a divorce yet Im getting close but Im not there yet. We have been in the postion we are now for 3months I want progress but if this doesnt come soon I think I will be ready for this but not wanting a divorce.

QUIT WASTING YOUR MONEY! DO NOT GO TO THIS COUNSELOR EVER AGAIN! DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

If you want some counseling, I would suggest phone coaching with the Harley's or at least shopping for a counselor that believes in MB principles. If not, you are just flushing your money down the toilet while doing permanent damage to your marriage.

Thanks to everybody for the responses, Yesterday I had another session with the counsellor to go over my concerns with how this was all being dealt with and the fact that it felt like i was being blamed for my wife having an affair.

He spoke at length about various issues and how it is never one persons fault but the result of things not working. All of which I know, I went over how my wife still feels no responsibility for what has happened, as far as she concerned its all me and she can name soo many things that i didnt do but cannot account for her side. I said that nobody is talking to her about taking responsibility for the life time commitment she made they are just telling her what she wants to hear.

I have seen emails from her family which simply state to be true to herself and follow her heart nobody is saying the tough words and saying anything she doesnt want to hear. I feel like i am not in a position to do anymore for fear of getting our relationship to such a state that all love is gone. I am trying to show I care and want to fix this while not being stepped all over a difficult thing. My wife has completely blocked all emotions from me and will not accept affection she almost recoils in disgust it feels very insulting. And is totally out of character in fact she even says she felt a lack of affection in our relationship so why act this way now? From all talks and info I could gather she no longer has involvement with the other guy and it never went beyond emotional and a drunken lengthy kiss. But she lied several times to me and was caught out several times after promising no more contact. Phone bills indicate this stopped about 30 days ago and other than work hours it would be hard though not impossible for her to maintain contact. But from what I was told this guy dumped her as he felt bad and couldnt continue.

I think she is going through withdrawal now. Is it normal for them to become so distant and vacant and act like nothing is wrong. My wife still wants to do things together and watch TV with me, games, walk the dogs etc. We still sleep in same bed, eat dinner together go to work in same car and at times as long as I dont discuss our problems we appear to be ok. But if i bring it up she says "not ready to talk" or "im not in love" "not sure I want to fix it" "not physically atttracted" but also says "i cannot leave" Is she stuck in "fog" stage and do I just need to step back and give time, my counsellor has suggested that I consider a 1 week temporary break from her and that I consider moving somewhere and having no contact for that period. What are your thoughts on this. I also told him i was worried about her mental state, and he said he will investigate further but believes she is in no immediate danger.

How do you fight without pushing away further I dont know...

this is red flags! I did this same thing to wheels when I found out that the OM1 found a g/f, wheels found out so I had to tell him it was over but I still had feelings for him. Well none the less I was hurt and I found someone else OM#2.

I don't know what you can do so she doesn't end up finding OM#2 all I can say there is a 90% chance she is finding someone else. Since the FOG was so thick for me I didn't let wheels in, I tried to work on the marriage, but I was still in the FOG and until that FOG lifts then that's where you can start working on the marriage. It sounds like she is still foggy, you need to do SOMETHING NOW before another man pick up on your wife.

The only thing I can think of is a plan B, but maybe someone else can help you if you don't think plan B is what you want to do right now.

I believe even Steve H says that Plan B when there are no kids or family leaves little incentive for the wayward to ever return.

My advice:

You�re young. This woman is messed up. You have no kids. Why try to save something with someone that is rude to your family and whose family doesn�t do anything about infidelity?

I was married to someone like that. I�m now divorced and have to share my kids with her. You don�t have kids with this woman.

Leave her, heal, do a lot of soul searching, and then find someone who has morals, who has a family with morals, and who is good to your family.

Thanks for responses,
I still feel not ready to leave and close the book. I dont feel it is yet the right time though with each day I am getting closer and closer to turning my back and leaving. There is only so much somebody can take and I have to look after myself and not be a doormat.

I am trying to just ignore her at the moment and give it time for her to clear her head and sort things out. She doesnt want to discuss anything important. If ever I try to talk about our situation she just launches into the "i love but not in love speech" or starts on the personal insults and trying to knock me down. So I am trying my best to not say anything on this topic as I cannot get through her wall. She talks of things in the future still with us. Though less so at present. She wanted to go away for a weekend and I told her no I didnt wish to go with her in this present state.

I cannot begin to express how disappointed i am in her family and the response they have given. I have written heart felt emails and I do not even get a response. They have offered no assistance at all. I have tried phone calls pleading for assistance and received nothing from them. Indeed my WW went interstate to visit for a few days (about a 1 1/2 mths ago) and for much of that time was on the phone to the OM. Is this sort of thing normal for WW family or should I have every right to expect more. I feel like they place no importance on marriage and are not expressing anything my WW does not want to hear. All I get from them is they dont want to get involved.

Am I doing the right thing, im trying to stick by a marriage that has in the past been great and my WW is normally a fantastic caring person but im scared that she has changed and the one I love will not come back. In fact yesterday she seemed to take great pleasure in telling me that a man 30yrs older had attempted to ask her out, she declined him but why tell me this and why are these people jumping at her i cant help but feel she must be overstepping normal boundaries to get this sort of response from people, Surely the average person sees a wedding ring and steps away?

Should I keep standing by and just ignoring her at the moment and hope that she gets over this stage and that with counselling which she attends 2 times a week she will rediscover our commitment and love. Its just a very very difficult thing for me to do stepping back feels like its counter productive to fixing things but in this case I dont know if there is anything else I can do.

You need to start standing up for your marriage, and fighting for her to come back, once you start ignoring her then she will start believing that you want out as well, so ignoring her is NOT the correct step....You need to be in plan A

Have you read plan A? And what you need to do?

Plan A her for 2 months, if nothing changes then go to plan B/D.

Update: After a fairly bumpy week and after the several months that this has gone on for. My ww moved into the lounge the past two nights and has been quite distant. Yesterday evening she came into me and stated that she wished to remain in the lounge for now as she was finding it difficult to sleep next to me. I decided enough was enough and spelt things out clearly to her. I said I felt that no effort from her side was being invested into the marriage.

Her response to this was an agreement that she has not made effort to repair or work on the marriage. This lead me to tell her that it was time she made a decision to either leave or commit to working on the marriage. I told her if she wants a divorce I will see a lawyer and get it in motion and begin plans to sperate property and make arrangements. Scary thing is I mean it. I think my patience after several months of no progress has near ran out. She burst into tears and told me she cant leave as she is so sad she will lose her best mate and all we have. But she then goes on to say shes not in love. To me this is a very confused message. I told her I will not accept the treatment she has been giving me and that I deserve better and want to fix my mistakes and make the marriage work. I told her its very important to me and we must start working at it. She tells me she thinks its too late etc. But I said it isnt too late as Im still here wanting to fix it.

Have I done the right thing, am i pushing it too hard. I told her I want a talk tonight and that we must start sorting things out and that this limbo life is no good. She agreed. But I have no idea what will happen, it could go either way. I really am worried but glad I stuck up for myself, but scared of what the consequences of it may be.

Anybody else been in a similar situation and had to deal with similar? A wife who still feels your her best friend but not in love, one who cant leave but wont work on the marriage? one who cant believe love can rise and fall and be recovered? PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!

As long as the affair is going on, the limbo continues.

What have you done to break the affair?

From all evidence that I can find and people I can talk to and from what I can see the affair is not on going, both in person or online or phone etc. I do still believe she feels something for him as from what I have been able to tell he ended it not her. This was about 1 month ago. over this time she has gotten worse with me though due to the pressure I applied in order to end the affair and the exposure I gave it, but i dont regret that. My wife sleeps in the other room now and has for over a week. In this time there has been very little opportunity for her to do much away from me so I dont believe it corresponds with any events.

She is completely stand off ish at the moment and beyond basic politeness offers nothing. I simply cannot see the person I have spent the past 8 years with. She shows no signs of wanting to fix the marriage. In fact her words were "i cannot bear to leave you but im not in love and cannot work at fixing the marriage" my question is what do i do about this now. The immediate mess of the affair is over but now what. We are left with so much damage and hurt and a wife who has no love or effort to build it. Can I do this alone or am i simply wasting my time and extending the pain. She does not believe I can meet her emotional needs and will not give me a chance. Therefore its impossible to show this. Please help!!

I'm no expert and am in much the same position as you. But it seems apparent that she is still strongly emotionally attached to OM. Its not that she thinks you can't fill the emotional void, she wants him to (or he still is). Until he's completely out her head will be in fantasyland. I would expose to his XW, children, employer. Refer to him as a predator when you do. Honestly, what have you got to lose at this point?

Your WW needs to get through withdrawal first. This should take a couple months of NC. Then she may start coming around. However, if after 6 months, she refuses to work with you on the MB program, DIVORCE HER IMMEDIATELY. She will do this to you in the future, only you will have a lot more to lose then (children, house).