Hello everyone
Im here once again to seek advice and a way forward. I would like to start with a quickish recap to introduce myself to the newbies and remind the vets of my thread.

Me/BS 28 (29 in a month ahhhh)
WS 30
DS's x 4 ages 2,4,6 and 9 years old
Married since 2000 (10 years)
EA September 2008
PA November 2008
DDay November 2008
Manic exposure happened immediately after DDay and I think I covered everyone including random strangers and anyone who would listen.
Joined MB October 2009 (1 year post d day)
Plan A - kind of happened before MB
Plan B - Suggested many times by MB members but not been lucid enough to co operate with MB's good advice
Coaching with Steve 7-8 times good results then major relapse of WS emotional progress
Books read, SAA, HNHS (the one for parents).

Recap:
Ws had A with a co worker (a particularly nasty speciemen of humanity as he was the 4th or 5th married man she has had A with in the workplace), I discovered affair thanks to google history feature where I discovered he was googling hotels and confronted him he crumbles slowly but surely first telling me they were friends then 24 hours later after I discovered who OW was and traced her on FB contacted her asking her to kindly respect our marriage and not to sneack off in allyways with my H in the middle of the night to talk etc (at this point i had total reassurance from WS that nothing phisical had happened they just talked all that time) got a swift reply from OW confirming PA in gory details (had sex twice in a hotel), WS confronted and worst day of my life followed.
WS ended A straight away (thanks to MAJOR exposures, mums, dads, work, every single one who knew her on FB etc) she ofcourse played the "he told me he was separated card" that didnt really stick due to her past colourful history that includes DNA test for her child whom had a possibility of fathers including 3 married coworkers who had to take the test and. Exposure helped show OW in her true colours and burst the fantasy bubble pretty well (I cant reccomend exposure enough to anyone going through this its an affair ender!). Post D Day I was a zombie and then a monster, first i was so sad i couldnt function then i was so furious I couldnt think straight and thats the way things stayed for a while. WS carried on working with OW which totally killed me and any chance of recovery, as a last stab in the dark Googled marriage help and found MB.

MB Journey so far helped as in WS was told to get new job, made excused, then with help and suggestions from MB got him new job. WS left work with OW January 2010 started new job March 2010 (there is a long application process hence the delay). Things started to get better after he left work with OW and he started to knuckle down with R. Had coaching with Steve and was on the right path, then went away for 4 weeks training 4 hours drive away and came back totally regressed.
Had lots of ups and downs, lots of arguments, brake up moments and just got so exhasperated and fed up that I just stopped trying to get a good marriage and just concentrated on my personal recovery. Abstained from MB due to inability to cope with the reality and feeling overwhealmed by failure.
Also for the sake of total disclosure I had EA 11 years ago with coworker, before I married WS and only a few months into our relationship, there is no excuse for my part however there is a reason and that was that I was scared of my feeling for WS at the time and their intensity and stupidly being only 18 I got involved with boss. I ended EA 2 months into it and have apologised for my mistake ever since.


Update on how things are now
Have hit a point where I have gathered my energy and have made sufficient personal recovery to attempt to get a Good marriage not just an okayish one. WS has been good on many levels like taking on alot more responsibility for kids/house and finances, he is not wayward in the sense that he is cheating or tempted to but in the sense that he is still stuck in a world of denial and lets just move on from what happened. He has not apologised for A (a must for me to start recovery) has stonewalled anything to do with MB due to his warped ideas of what plan A is and how i didnt execute it towards him fully upon discovery of A and just generally happy he feels he has been let off he hook as i dont mention A anymore. He is genuinley happy with the way things are right now he makes comments like "see our life isnt that bad, we have a good family" etc. He has stonewalled meeting EN's as he says that he does not know how to meet my EN's. Coaching wise, about 8 weeks ago follwing an argument about how I was just fed up etc he had coaching with Steve and reported that Steve was not going to be able to help us as I was too emotionally intelligent for him and that I felt the pain of an A more than the average BS therefore there was nothing he could do to help (I beleive this is total bull as I cant see Steve saying that but WS got what he wanted coaching got dropped off the list of possible sources of help to recover a good M).
Right now I want to tackle the EN's I want to get more from this stale relationship. I feel that plan B could help to nudge WS but he is a member of MB therefore aware of what it involves and things arent as bad as they have been they just arent what i want from a M. Aby ideas on where do i go from here and how do i get WS to co operate??

Vets - Feel free to add any info that i have forgotten i am just trying to give a recap.

BH28,

Just a thought, how did your H feel about your EA, men often don't express what they feel and go on without repairing the damage, that was me.

Women want to forget completely what they have done and I've only been asked about it once by my W.

God Bless
Gamma

Hi Gamma

I didnt tell him about the EA until 2 years after it had happened. He was angry and became posessive both very understandible and even now 11 years on I am open and give him full access to all emails phone records etc and tell him EVERYTHING that happens so he has learned to trust me again. I still apologise for what I did however dont like to compare it to what he did as in my opinion i was young and we were together a very short time when it happened, his PA was 8 years into the marriage and was phisical and very malicious. I truly learned from my EA as I have not repeated it despite having thoughts of revenge on what he did to me however I dont want anyone else, I feel i would loose all self respect if i did to him what he did to me. And most of all I never want my kids to look at me the way they WILL look at him one day when they realise what has happened to us.

How long you have been together has nothing to do with you early EA. Work on your own wayward fog--it seems you've retained some of it.

Karmarose, please explain? to me it is a clear cut issue are you telling me that an 18 year old girl who emotionally cheats on a boyfriend of a few months is in the same league as a father of 4 who sneaks off to hotel rooms to have sex with a coworker leading to cheating on his wife of 8 years and betraying his kids?

the fact that i dont think they are in the same league doesent mean i am retaining waywardness. the fact that i have been faithful and remorseful and more aware of my weaknessess over the past 11 years and not repeated the offence should be clearance enough to expel me from the wayward zone. Sorry im touchy about this subject but it always seams like its used to justify me being cheated on and thats really not fair nor reasonable.

I apologize, I did not realize that you were not married at that point. Misread as usual.

No we got marriead a year later and i can honestly say i had the maturity level of a frogspawn, i guess thats why we dont see many 18 year old waywards trying to MB their way into recovery on here.
I know the age is not supposed to matter but to me it does because the general maturity and life experience that is needed to survive an affair is just not developed well enough in the majority of 18 year olds. If there is anything else i can do now to make amends for my behaviour from back then i would still do it as i could never apologise enough for that betrayal

BH28,

I didnt tell him about the EA until 2 years after it had happened. He was angry and became posessive

I understand your feeling that what you did does not compare with what he did, however this might not be how your H feels and if you want to fix your relationship you need to understand him. He may also feel deep down that it was also a PA.

Before my wifes "EA" with OM2, my wife had an "EA" with OM1, my then best friend, very early on when we were dating. Before the OM1 EA, I felt that our relationship was perfect, after I never exactly trusted her as I did before.

I will also say that since I have never responded with a revenge affair of any kind I still feel that the scale between us is imbalanced. There is a sense among some men that the longer an injustice has gone unpunished the greater the retribution should be, the years multiply the response and do not diminish it.

Did your H confront the OM or expose him to his wife?

God Bless
Gamma

Brutally Honest--maybe I missed it, but did this recap talk about your H beating the daylights out of you recently? Seems like that's a big issue with your situation--even if the police do drop the case, as you mentioned in the other thread in recovery forum.

G & KR:

Lets stop with paying attention to the deck chairs, and start dealing with the gash in the side of the ship, OK?

She was dating, and had and EZ with her boss at 18. And at 18 she didn't know how to deal with it. THese are deck chairs.

It may have created problems later in her marriage. Her WH may not trust her, completly. So, that may be the start of the gash in the hull of this marriage. But her WH and his PA/EA and lackidasical attepts at recovery are tearing the hull apart.

Go read BH28 earlier threads, both on SAA and the recovery board.

She has counselled with SH, and got something good out of it. Her WH, on the other hand, has only gotten:

"Why haven't you plan "A"ed me?"
"Your too smart, and I am OK, so get over it"
"Why should I meet YOUR EN'S? That sounds like WORK!"

There will be a time and place for BH28 to work thru what happened earlier in the marriage. Her WH will use it as a crutch and a club to remove the focus from HIS actions as often as possible. Please do not support HIM in these efforts.

He has posted her also.

He DOESN'T get it YET.

Lets provide BH28 with ways that she can work this problem WH into something that may be worthy of being married to.

One, he needs to cure his rectal-cranium inversion, and start PLAN Aing HER. She is the wounded party, and HE needs to start making amends. She needs to establish her boundaries as to WHAT she will accept as proper behavior from him. This is of prime importance right now.

HE thinks everything is just peachy. But it is destroying BH28 with anger and resentment.

Establish your boundaries, BH28. What are your top 5 EN's, and how would you like your WH to address them?

LG

Gamma - OM from my EA was single and was 21 so we were both young, WS did not expose or confront OM as i didnt tell him about it till 2 years after it had happened, I left that job before my son was born so NC was in place when we got married and our relationship became serious and we got married. Thats all there is to the EA I had. I am happy to answer anything else you would like to know about it but I would appreciate any help on current marital situation. I would like to add that I am proud of myself for not having retaliated to WS A with a revenge A, (WS spouse even suggested i should sleep with someone else o get back at him in his extreame fog days) Altough it would have made me feel better for 5 mins I dont want that, WS is the first man and only man I have ever shared myself with and thats the way I want to keep it.

Imanot - I didnt add the details of the incident because I want to move forward. He is not a wife beater, it happened once and I dealt with it appropriately, I dont want to be or feel like a victim it gets me nowhere feeling sorry for myself, I want to find a good concrete way forward. I am almost scared to say that he did attack and assault me, he has a really gentle nature but when frustrated lashes out as he bottles things in, he has hit inanimate objects on those occasions but never me until now. Can this count as post A wayward behaviour or is it in the dealbraker category and I should just give up on a family?

lousygolfer - you are an angel you have summed up how i feel and the situation perfectly, I can carry on talking about what happened and what I did etc but at what point do I get to move past this and get the help I need now. I am frustrated and just super overwhealmed by faliure, this whole process has been one step forward and 50 backwards.
As many MBrs can probably understand when you think your in Recovery and then you find out its false recovery as many times as I feel I have how do you trust the real thing?

I am glad you asked about what my EN's are as I am starting to feel like an unreasonable monster when WS just goes on and on about how he doesent understand/feel able to and knows how to meet my EN's I would appreciate some insight as to weather my EN's are reasonable or not.

Top 5 ENS

1) Affection
2) Conversation
3) Honesty and openess
4) Family commitment
5) Admiration

1) Affection H needs to find the words and gestures to express his love to me. He needs to reassure me he does love me once in a while without being asked or harassed about it (WS spouse screamed about how he wasnt in love with me anymore when we were at a friends house during A, before i discovered A the humiliation still hurts). He needs to remind me he loves me in actions that I understand not just promising things that I have heard before and not keep those promises. I should add that WS is cuddly, kissy and phisically affectionate however I interpret this as wanting SF when often it just him expressing affection.

2) Conversation - Needs to learn to bring u difficult issues without promting or hiding or drama. Needs to keep me updated on his emotional progress and what he is thinking (mainly when he is thinking good things like my wife looks nice in that top kind of thing) without me having to ask and chase. He says he thinks those things and does feel things but doesent share them. Ie i could spend 3 hours grooming and dressing up, come downstairs he would look at me think i look good and not actually say it. I guess what I am going on about is COMMUNICATION he expects me to read his mind and know how he feels thinks.

3) Honesty and Openess- He needs to stop censuring himseld because he predicts how i would react and what i would feel and say so he doesent tell me things, I find this so frustrating and have gone out of my way to react unexpectedly towards revelations in order to show him that I do not think or react the way he thinks i do and i rather get honesty and openess rather than be resented for him having to censor hiself and become resentful because he thinks he knows how i would react to things. Dont make promises he knows he cant keep. I rather he said i will get back to you on that one than yeah I will definitley do this and never actually do it and when i ask him why did he get my hopes up and not do the thing he promised to do and why put me through that the answer is always the same " i knew i couldnt do it but wanted to try" its like being lied to all over again.

4) Family commitment have more family days out and do more fatherly things with the kids like reading, homework, outside play etc. Often when i suggest taking the kids out he has stonewalled me by saying "little one is going to be a nightmare, hey will misbehave, I wont enjoy the outing as they will need watching closely if we are at beach/woods/venue etc" the few times I have dragged him out the kids have been so grateful that they behaved impeccably yet he keeps saying the same thing. We have 4 boys youngest one is 2 they are kids not prisoners!
He does not help with homework and reading especially with the oldest two who now are very behind in school and I am mortified by this, have enlisted a good friend to tutor them as I work in the evenings and cant give them consistant support.
I have to say WS has made a good effort regarding outings with kids, he has participated well in day outings and I am proud of him for that. Just needs to buckle down with the homework/reading part.

5) Admiration - I work so hard everyday and the workload is still relentless, I have no mum/dad/siblings (twin brothers who are 13) to be proud of me. I need him to be proud of me when I do something he admires. Due to my own insecurities H needs to take time to tell me when he feels admiration, he needs to make me feel good about myself. I get alot of chriticism from him and some well deserved but i need constructive chriticism where i am not always just told the negative but the positive too, I take whatever chriticism he says so much to heart i go out of my way to change it frustrates me but these days i feel like i know exactly what i am doing wrong and little about what i am doing right.


do these EN's seam resonable?

Before I throw my 2 cents in let me just say - his anger and abuse is absolutely NOT ok. At the very least you must insist on anger management classes. Violence tends to escalate, next time it WILL be worse. You cannot brush off his behavior, it must be addressed head on - he needs some real consequences from his behavior. In fact, all of his current behavior reflects that he has had to bear very little consequences for his actions over the course of his whole life.

To your previous post:
Yes, they seem very reasonable BH. All ENs are reasonable - because they are what you need to feel secure and loved.

Honestly, when you and your WH showed up here his attitude really bothered me. He has hit on this idea of his being 'emotionally backwards' to absolve him of meeting your needs. It's his get out of jail free card. If he slips up - if he doesn't feel like meeting your needs he can just fall back on the fact that he's 'emotionally backwards' and just 'doesn't get it' and deflect your unhappiness back on you with the backhanded compliment of 'you're so emotionally complex/intelligent'.

It's BS.

But as this is the road he's decided to take, perhaps a bit more clarity about your ENs could help. Lemme explain.


When DH and I did the questionnaires, Affection was at the top of both of our lists, and yet we were both not filling each other's needs to the best of our ability. See I love little gifts, so I kept buying him little gifts, he liked hugs and physical affection, which I am not a huge fan of. So we sat down and made lists of "This is what means Affection" to me. I still buy him little gifts, but I also make a point to hit the things on his list as often as I can, and so does he. He's taken to bringing me little flowers he picks on his walk home.

Telling him 'he needs to find the words and gestures' may be too much. Because then he can fall back on 'emotionally backwards' me can't think/find the gestures.

So make a list "This means affection to me". Fill it with as many affectionate acts as you can think of that have meaning to you. Give him the list and tell him you'd like him to do 3 things from that list for you every day.

Stinks, cuz it would be nice if he 'just knew' how to meet this need and 'just did it' but he doesn't and he can't. So he must train himself to do so.


Something Dr. Harley has recommended is that as soon as the Husband comes home from work he and his wife get together and have conversation, talking about their days. DH and I started doing this early in our marriage. It has taken a while for him to get into this habit and learn HOW I would like the conversation to be, but now, 5 years later, he's a pro at it. It takes practice and encouragement.

Instead of giving him the nebulous goal of "Just communicate with me more" when it is something he isn't naturally inclined to do, say each day at X o'clock we will sit down and discuss our days, our thoughts and our feelings. Then simply ask him to tell you what went on during his day, ask him "What did you think about that?" "How did you feel about that?" After a while he'll answer the questions without even asking.

Over time he will learn that THIS is how you want him to communicate and he may even begin to do it on his own.

Also, if you need to hear what he is thinking, it is ok to ask "How do you think I look?" This helps him to get into the habit of verbalizing this thoughts, which is what you want. When he does, make sure you thank and appreciate him. People respond to positive enforcement.



This one I'm a little stuck on, let me think on it a bit.

Perhaps when he says "I knew I couldn't but wanted to try" you thank him for at least WANTING to try - at least he has a desire to do so. Perhaps you can ask him what would have made his efforts successful. Ask him how you could have helped him to succeed in what he committed to do.


You may want to reread the chapter on FC in HN, HN. Again if you set a SPECIFIC goal for your husband to meet this need you may get more out of him.

Instead of saying "Spend more time with the kids and help with homework" Come together and look at your schedules and determine "I will spend X time each day working with Child A on homework" Schedule the time.

There is an example in HN, HN that is just that. The wife needs FC and the husband has no clue how to meet the need. So they decide that each day, for 2 hours the father will work with the kids on homework. It led to an environment and behavior pattern where the husband was MUCH more involved in the lives of his children.



Again, specific goal.

When someone comes here with a spouse who has a high need for Admiration, I often suggest they make a list, as long as they can, of what it is they admire about their spouse. At LEAST 10 things. Whenever they think of something else add to it.

Each day they should make an effort to give several compliments off of that list. As this is a list they made, these are things they actually DO admire about their spouse, this just trains them to vocalize what they already think. I also tell them to take every opportunity to admire their spouse to OTHERS.

After a while, they wont need the list, it will become habit to vocalize what you admire when you think of it.

Really - identifying the needs is only the first step, creating the PLAN to meet those needs is just as important. Sometimes our spouses have to be guided into meeting the needs, because just knowing that DH wants affection doesn't tell me he likes hugs over gifts and back rubs over love notes.

Hi Vibressa thanks for the insight just what I needed right now, I am confused at times as to what my own EN's are so glad that I can brake them down a bit more clearly. It really feels like you KNOW my H what you said about not having to take responsibility for his actions over his lifetime so far are so accurate its scary. He is an only child and has loving caring parents who have mollicoddled him and see him as never having done any worng and its always someone elses fault (A wise MIL is more angry at POSOW than WS as her naive little man must have been Corrupted etc) I love my in Laws they are nice people but timid and generally dont like to get involved in anything. It was a shock for his dad to sit him down (at MIL request) and speack to him about A and even then he was mild compared to what he should have said to him. I guess what im trying to say they are simple people in the least offensive way.

Violence wise I did not tell In laws about assault I just didnt want to hurt them and let them know how far the apple had fallen from the tree. I think that H got his due punishment by being taken away in handcuffs for neighbours and friends to whitness, he spent a night in a cell and was treated like a criminal. He now has a criminal record and his job is working for the prison service so thats humiliation enough. He is fully aware of the consequences should he touch me again and in a discussion today admitted he may need anger managment advice (no idea if there is anything relating to anger managment courses in the UK.

Emotional need wise here is where I am at.....

Affection - Great suggestion Vibressa about the list, I dont mind that at all as he does show so much affection but not in a way that I understand/trust. He has not bought me flowers etc in a while and its ok I am a cheap wife (hate gold, diamonds and love silver, love carnations not so much roses) so it isnt hard to please me gift wise I just wish he thought about me more often, when he has his heart set on something for himself like a phone cover a gadget etc he goes to extraordinary lengths to get the money for it and make it happen when it comes to me it always "I dont buy you gifts as finances are tight" line. He is onboard with the list thing so good news so far.

Conversation - by your description of it I can honestly say H does meet EN, we talk about the day everyday, we make plans together and general conversation is very good. What I need is conversation about our relationship and where we stand etc. Over the past 2 years things have been so up and down that i dont knwo where I stand half the time. one minute something is black the next its white. For example today he told me he is annoyed because i want to spend all my time with him and if he goes off to do something for himself i interrupt him. He does have a fair point as in I do like being around him, doing chores together and just being around eachother however as i work 7 days a week I am only around him 4 hours a day inbetween my job and his, if he wants to do his own thing all he has to do is tell me and i do respect that (he agrees that when he tells me i do respect his quest for time out) but he generally sneaks off to do something without telling me and then resents me for not knowing where he has gone to therefore calling out for him and interrupting his thing. He sais he sneaks off as he feels guilty for not spending time with me. Well then dont resent me for calling you when I have no idea that your busy with something else! and why does my husband not want to spend as much time with me as i want to with him?? not nice feeling clingy.

to be continued.....

also conversation wise i was told by him today not to ask "how do I look etc" as he wants to tell me before I ask as wants to learn to do it spontaniously and without prompring. so I guess thats progress on his part.

H&O

"This one I'm a little stuck on, let me think on it a bit.

Perhaps when he says "I knew I couldn't but wanted to try" you thank him for at least WANTING to try - at least he has a desire to do so. Perhaps you can ask him what would have made his efforts successful. Ask him how you could have helped him to succeed in what he committed to do."

Yeah happy with that if thats what he said at the start not when nothing he has promised happens and a few weeks later i ask him why he guaranteed that he will do this thing and then he hasnt done it, thats when i get the "i Knew i couldnt ut i wanted to try" almost makes me want to scream!! tell me that from the start and we will be ok!

To clarify an exsample of this would be the following

one thing that I hate about the A is that WS took OW out and had fun, cinema, bowling, Nandos (hate Nandos now). He took charge and decided where to go and when to go and despite poor finances MADE IT HAPPEN. I NEVER EVER EVER get taken out, it infuriates me and makes me very gelous of OW and why does she get taken out and I dont. Told H many times how I felt he constantly says will take you out and NEVER does. So why promise and not do? it just hurts and makes me feel lied to.

Family committment- There has been very significant progress from WS in this area and taking the kids out and interacting more with them, I am hoping that with the new school year starting we can both pull together and find time to invest in the childrens educational needs. I would like to sit down with him and work out a fair plan to tackle this. Last semester i asked him to make sure DS9 does homework on sunday while i am at work he probably followed through with that 1 out of 6 times. Also need him to participate more in kids discipline when i put one in time out he will let him play computer games etc in order for H to get hassle free time then I have to be the bad guy and tell DS that he is in time out and to ignore Dad and not play Computer games as he is in time out. I need him to parent the kids with me even if it is inconveniant to his solitude time.


Admiration - abolutely hate the idea of having to write that list I dont like myself and find it uncomfortable to get any compliments never mind writing down what compliments I want him to give me. that makes my stomac turn just at the thought. I want him to be proud of me and right now im not very proud of myself I have many faults like hiding in my bedroom on days off in order to destress, getting down very easly, lack of energy these things frustrate and I can immagine how they make him feel, so we are discussing a way he can help me out of this dark patch I am in. I just feel overwhealmed by life right now and take every opportunity to hide from it in my room. but if WS asks me to go out to the park or help him with chores i jump at the chance of spending time with him so is an incentive to get me out of the blues, told him that today lets see if anything comes of it.

Dealin with the baby tonight so only have a moment- the admiration list is something HE writes- not you.

thanks vibressa u have really helped, He is taking info at last and we will see if it goes anywhere

Hey everyone

update time again

Been lurking, reading and learning again on MB, have replied to some posts but feel very inadequate as feel somewhat hipocritical as in giving advice yet not being any good at my own marriage recovery.

Anyway this week has been a little bit hard for me, WS has discovered I am back on MB and is trying to distract me away from it so i can go back to being docile and numb W rather than just seek a good marriage. Looking back on it i find it almost funny how he is trying to get me away from MB as "it does me no good" as it brings up memoried of A, is he really that disillusioned that he thinks I have somehow miracolousely forgotten the A?? with no efford nor work on his part? wow now that would be a miracle.

Anyway had an LB's day on Satuday night, after doing a double shift, being tiered and hungry (dieting) my self restraint and degences were at an all time low and it just hit me. WHY AM I STILL WAITING FOR AN APOLOGY nearly two years after the A??
I am at work, kids are asleep and WS has yet another empty evening to buckle down and do some APOLOGY THINKING. So being down exhausted and just low in general called him during my work brake and just asked what he was up to etc. he said nothing much watching TV and playing computer games and that was it i let rip

I made statements like "if the wound you have left me with by having your affair was phisical i would have bled to death by now waiting for you to even just stick a patch on it" and carried on saying "why do you refuse to care about the one thing I NEED from you in order to start to move on from the A", "how dare you treat me like this after EVERYTHING you have put me trough etc" and finally "Why cant you take ownership of your mistake like a REAL man and stop hiding like a kid, I have no respect for someone who knows he has done wrong yet does not apologise for the wrong"
Just basically ranted at him for 20 mins, I was met by silence that infuriated me even more, when asked why he hadnt even started working/thinking about an apology I was met with the following gemstone "I dont have a good enough reason, I can see any reason I can come up with is just an excuse, I promise to get it done soon etc"

Ok people what do I do with this little boy I seem to be married to?? Can I plan B him and what do I aim to get by plan B'ing him?? I feel like doing total BLACKOUT plan B however scared as he is a runner not a fighter and he might just accept it and move on so I need to feel like the benefits are worth the risk.

I have a big issue with people not apologising for their mistakes, during my childhood i was beated and mistreated many times, tryed to get help from other adults but due to my mothers colture i was told in no uncertain terms adults are always right and they never apologise to children no matter what they do, this still haunts me and its something I struggle with so much that I rather be alone than live with yet another abuser who cant apologise.

BH you need a plan. Your husband loves to play clueless so you need to lay it all out, step by step.

The longer you go without a plan, the longer you drift without achieving recovery, the more your resentment is fed, the more your Taker becomes a raving lunatic.

You cannot bellow your rage at him and force him into appropriate behavior.

You need to STOP this cycle.

You need to lay out EVERYTHING you need. Your list should include:

A sincere apology.
A plan for meeting your need.
A list of EPs.
A commitment to implement MB to ensure a healthy relationship. This includes more meetings with Steve, and working through the home course. I know it is expensive, you will TOGETHER create a plan to afford it. He should also return here - he was getting great help here.

You give him your list. Tell him THIS is what it is going to take to keep you in this marriage. THIS is what it is going to take to 'get over' this affair. THIS and NOTHING else.

Lay your cards on the table. Be clear with your expectations.

This is your boundary - this is the behavior you will accept, you should accept nothing else.

His reaction to this list will be telling. None of this is unreasonable, none of this is out of line. ALL of this is what you will NEED if you EVER want a chance of breaking this terrible cycle you are in. This has been going on way too long - we're coming up on 2 years. You should be WAY past this place in recovery.

If he refuses to do the work of recovery - then it's time to implement Plan B. That involves getting him out of the house, finding an Intermediary, and if necessary filing for separation (not sure how that works, legally).

Hi Vibressa i am really grateful that you are taking the time and advising me right now, I feel so foggy (not in a wayward sense) and your post are like lightbeams guiding the way so thank you for that.

I did have a strong plan in place for so long but got so overwhealmed by faliure I just lost the energy to fight him anymore and once in a few months I will struggle to the point where i will lash out verbally to try and get things back on track and I agree that is not helpful.

This is my Ideal world Plan

1)WS gives me well deserved apology
2)WS gets back to reading and learning from MB
3)Meet EACHOTHERS emotional needs, however I feel that I need him to start meeting mine first (even just for a week) before I can open up enough to meet his.
4)POJA in place (we are not doing to bad on that one)
5)WS to show regular consistant commitment to marriage not one week wants to work on it the next he is taking a rest etc
6)I need to get myself emotionally sorted, see councelor again and get a good plan for mental health recovery


whats EP? by the way

coaching wise things are beyond ridiculous finances wise, no spare money for childrens school shoes right now never mind coaching and we are both hard workers, he has well paid full time job and I have 2 part time jobs(even with my chronic fatugue syndrome) however we are still mega struggling and it gets me down as I feel if I had the money our marriage could be much better because we could get coaching but the fact is we dont so I have to live with that and do my best to use MB on its own for now.

He is such a manipulator and has passive agressive tendancies to boot so its very difficult to pin him down to do anything he doesent want to do like MB and getting a GOOD MARRIAGE as far as he is concerned that would be WORK and he beleives totally that he has learned enough from the A never to repeat it again, so what about the good marriage part. Does he think that never cheating again is going to be the only solution to all our problems?

Right now I am in mega dark place friday night we are going to a friends wedding and as its not local to our town we will be spending the night in a hotel (MAJOR TRIGGER ALERT) already having panic attacks at being in hotel with him. Really dont want to be as to me now hotels are dirty seedy places affairs happen and i dont want to go anywhere near on. Any suggestions? Please help.