You don't get it - you really just....don't

Explain to me WHY your wife should stay with you.

Explain to me what it is about you that makes you SAFE to have a relationship with.

Sorry didnt get to finish what I started last night as my wife wanted to get some sleep as she had work early in the morning so I helped her fall asleep as it was about 1:30am



hmmm to be honest your right, im not exactly safe to be with.

I've always struggled emotionally but before the affair it was nothing to serious as we were happy and deeply loved each other. Now the affair has ripped apart the whole fabric of our marriage my lack of emotional understanding/capability is glaring for all to see on a daily basis.

Almost all situations that are coming up im struggling to handle or see them for what they are or the consequences they may cause.

I dont have a better answer as your right im not a safe option. My wife is taking a risk by staying with me but from her side (NOT MINE) she is taking a chance in leaving too as shes had an impossibly hard life (even before me and my s**t) and its sadly almost become a 'which is worse' scenario for her.



We chatted for most of last night as shes given me til the 14th this month (our 10th wedding annivsary) to up my game and meet her EN's or shes kicking me out. The past couple of days I havent done anything and shes finding it hard to wait until the 14th. Ive promised that from today I would have an improved attitude and fight for the marriage.

So I've woken up early with her today, did the housework with purpose, got her and kids breakfast and by the time she left for work everything which normally takes a couple of hours was done. I wanted to catch up on here and make a few calls before planning some serious EN work.

Very fair post and im in agreement here. We had a chat yesterday evening about my attitude. We both understand I have a DEEP seated justification issue. I dont mean something happens and I think oh crap lets palm this off, its happens without my knowledge.

An example would be; when the violence occured my GENUINE recollection of the events (would have sworn on my life) were wrong and very different from my wifes. I remembered hurting her and pinning her to the bed but I dont remember slapping her side and that kicking everything off. My wife was horrified but I genuinely couldnt remember and that was only July.

She believes that the things I can justify I keep as memories and the things I cant justify I conviently forget. Is this possible, it seems plausible but I really genuinely cant remember these snipets its like they literally never happened.

Whenever I speak to a therapist I run rings around them, not because I want to but my nature of justifying along with my gentle and calm nature gettings most people onside.

She used to attend a group session once a week and the therapist worked wonders with my wife and her childhood issues (until I messed it all up with the affair) and I was asking what the chance of me getting into the same group would be. 1) because she knows the real issues, not my twisted versions so I couldnt hide 2) she doesnt accept justications like most therapists do. 3) being a group, having other peoples reactions, questions, opinions etc again gives me less places to hide.

I asked my wife that if she can only do one thing for me could she use her influence with the therapist and come to the doctor with me so they actually believe there is a problem and see if we can get this to happen.


Obviously this is a long term solution and not to be relyed on now but very important to start the wheels in motion.


This might seem a littl off topic but I brought this up as your right, I have the guilt as I know Ive done wrong but find it soo hard to accept remorse as I believe my disgusting REactions have been because of outside influences actions in the first place.

Hence the therapy as its not as simple as just going ok I accept it. My justifying nature is soo set in its not going to vanish overnight and I cant trick myself to feel something I dont as it will rear its ugly head a some stage and I'll be blamed for relapsing??



Thank you, your right and this is where I need to improve instantly (see above post of mine also), she needs to see she can risk investing a little more time in me, while I seek to sort myself out and to do this I have to EARN IT.




I know you dont want to hear it but im afraid im VERY emotionally retarded. Not just towards my wife but even if a friend comes with a emotional problem I have NO IDEA what the hell to say or advise. Emotionally im terrible and have the EI of a plank of wood. Sorry.

Hi Emo,

I read the last few pages of your thread, probably because of your screen name. Most people don't spell their names backward. Anyway, you seem to be getting plenty of good adivce here, but seem to be wearing the MB folks pretty thin.

I would just like to suggest something, and that is to try to engage in some humility. It's probably something you have not tried to do inawhile. It is not something magic, and it isn't rocket science. It is something you are capable of doing both emotionally and spiritutally. In the absence of that you seem to be allowing yourself to self-justify just about every thing you thnink and do. That is a form of pride and selfishness. Yea, there may be some emotional and relationship flaws that you have, and a counselor could help you with that, but counselors don't seem to be very good at coaching humility these days. Pride prevents the natural feeling of remourse over things we have done that are harmful and hurtful to others, and therefore prevents us from making amends and correcting our behavior. In your case you can justifyl continuing to drink even tho you promised your W you would not. You can slap your W around because she did not respond as you thought she should have. You can fail to apologize to her because she filed a complaint and you were tossed in the slammer and She made you feel like a thug. Don't you see where this is getting you? You are hating what you are becoming, but you are taking no positive steps to prevent that.

Emo, I feel that you could work on meeting her EN's all you want, but w/o addressing your lack of humility I doubt that will get you anywhere. You really should taking some time this day to get on your knees to thank God (your higher power, whatever) that she is still with you.

Good luck,

Tom

I noticed you capitalized the letters "RE" in the word "REactions." In other words, these actions were in response to something else, therefore they aren't as wrong because something/someone "made" you do it. Wrong. Actions are actions. If something is wrong (like an A, hurting your W, or justifying) then it is wrong. It doesn't matter what happened first. This is that round robin thinking: I'm sorry I did this but I only did it because you do that so therefore it's really your fault I did this.

This can stop NOW. I'm sorry. It's that simple. You just say I am so very sorry that I (fill in the blank), and then you stop. You don't say "but", you don't say "because".

For some people "what caused me to do this" is a valuable. For some it is an exercise in "who/what made me do it." I used to be a liar. I mean a big fat stinking liar. When I saw what it did do my family and my life....I stopped. No digging into my psyche or lack thereof....just stopped. And believe me, I am NOT special or extra good or anything. We do what is important to us - not talk about doing it or make lists or plan - we do it.

Hello again Emo,

Belive me I am not trying to pound you, but I should have included another feeling and observation I had in my post to you. That is, you seem to allow yourself currently to engage in risky behavior. The first is texting a female 'friend'. The second is continuing to drink and minimize or just dismiss a possible drinking problem. I am a recovering alcoholic. I have heard many times therefore that if any ocasion of drinking results in relationship, financial, or legal issues, that is a pretty good indicator of a current or very potential drinking problem, if not alcoholism itself. If you cannot abstain from drinking as you promised your wife, please then look into A.A.

Tom

Do you realize that you are mentally and emotionally ABUSING your wife? That you have been for 2 years?


Why should she take the risk with you? On her own at least she can create mental stability. She wont have to worry about being abused on top of barely being able to make it.

Do you see your selfishness here? Your need for her and your family is more important to you than her mental state, than her health. Your desires are more important than the needs of your children to have a stable, safe environment.

WHY should she stay and risk it? Why, when ALL your actions over the last 2 years confirm you are NOT a person ANY woman should be with?

You have no concept of how to truly LOVE and CARE for a person. You want your wife because it is what is best FOR YOU. Until you are concerned about what is BEST FOR HER you are dangerous. Your world centers on YOU, not your marriage and not your family but YOU. That is the core of your problem.

Now I would love for this marriage to be rebuilt, but if it rebuilt with current-yllan, it's going to be worthless. If THIS is all BH gets - for her own sanity she MUST leave you. If you loved her you would accept this.

You are like the abusive husband, who promises THIS time will be better. Just to suck your wife in for more abuse.

You are like a little child who broke his favorite toy - crying that it's in pieces. Then someone comes and fixes the toy and gives it back to you - only to have you break it AGAIN. After a while, that kind person isn't going to give you back the toy - and yet you expect it. You feel you SHOULD be given the toy, though you have demonstrated NO ability to NOT break it. WHY should you get your toy back? I mean really, why?

Now - there could be a new and better yllan. One WORTH having a marriage and family with. Until you are that man, you are continuing to torture your wife.

___________

Now, as for the BS thread about your new OW. It is ALL BS. You may lie to yourself that you had good motives and intentions, but it is BULL. You PURPOSEFULLY went outside your marriage for something you should ONLY get within it.

THIS is why when a person says "I will never cheat again because I've seen the pain it causes" it is NEVER enough.

You've tormented your wife for YEARS, and yet you STILL did this. You managed to rationalize it to yourself AGAIN.

This is why rationalizations, feelings, etc. DON'T WORK. The ONLY thing that works are GOOD BOUNDARIES. And you need a FORTRESS of boundaries because you are absolutely INCAPABLE of appropriate interaction with women PERIOD.

INCAPABLE.

As I say with children - now you lose privileges.

You should NOT have friendships with women. PERIOD FULL STOP. None.

In fact you should never even be ALONE with a woman not your wife.

You should never talk intimately with a woman not your wife.


Hmmm, maybe you could talk to say.... YOUR WIFE. You know, the person who is actually GOING through all this with you.

Everything after the but is worthless.

Absolute rubbish.

Ever think that your wife might need someone to talk to, someone to confide in and lean on? Nope - all about you and your needs. You feel entitled to your needs and so you take from wherever you can. You only give where it benefits you.

And yet you still think your wife should take the risk?

I'd like you to go back and reread your post about this new OW. Read through it and look at how you describe the situation. You provide tons of 'explanation' and 'back story'. You take pains to demonstrate how horrible this other person is - playing you against your wife, trash talking you to other people.

This is a diversionary tactic. You are trying to get us to focus on HER evils, and paint yourself and your wifes as the victims of this bad person.

I'm not falling for it. You are not the victim here. You are the perpetrator. This woman played you off your wife because you LET her. YOU CHOSE to create an intimate relationship with this woman.

Be GLAD your wife found out - because, mark my words, you would have slept with her eventually.

Now you'll tell me you never would have, she was a horrible person, you'd never put your wife through that pain again blah blah blah.

But - your last OW was vile trash, too. And you DID break your emotional boundaries to hurt your wife again. You rationalized it because you 'needed someone who understood'. You would have rationalized yourself right to her bedsheets.


Interesting.

Why did you put the kiss in your text?

I think you would benefit from reading this thread.

Another man who feels compelled to be affectionate to other women and is hurting his wife. Read the advice he go. I see a lot of parallels.

Finally:

Ahh - and you're off the hook again.

Apology NOT accepted.

So what if your 'Emotionally Retarded'? I mean really!

Nice thing about MB is the focus is on ACTION. Behaviors. Emotions come afterwards. Do the ACTION and the words and feelings will follow.

So your excuse doesn't work.

ACTIONS:
Meet her needs. Every day meet her needs. I laid out the plan above but in case you need a refresher:
Where are the feelings in there? Where once did I mention your emotions?

I didn't.

I gave you ACTIONS.

These actions will demonstrate compassion, the will demonstrate contrition. Get in to the habit of SERVING your wife, instead of expecting her to SERVE you and the feelings will emerge.

Next ACTION:
Avoid Love Busters.

Your biggest love busters are dishonesty and infidelity. So don't worry about the feelings - what are the actions you should take?

ACTIVE precautions against infidelity, namely EPs.

READ THIS WHOLE THREAD, THEN READ IT AGAIN

On top of that, implement:

Opposite Sex Protection Plan

Group A- Serious threats
Includes- OW, OM, any and all past lovers, old girl/boyfriends even if no sex was involved in the relationship, any known strippers prostitues or similar occupations, people we know to be generally flirty or have bad boundaries
Response- NO CONTACT with OM and OW, for the others avoid contact if at all possible and if there must be contact keep it as brief as possible and tell your spouse about it immediately. If you find yourself thinking about dreaming about or fantasizing about someone like this discuss it with your spouse.
Group B-High Threats
Includes- Anyone that is "needy" or desiring help especially if they are having marital problems, anyone that you find physically attractive, anyone who seems to be flirting with you or desiring to be around you more than is necessary, childhood friends of the opposite sex, this also can include anyone in your spouses family that you find attractive, you must be honest both with your spouse and yourself as to who is a threat.
Response- do not help anyone of the opposite sex with marital problems or allow them to help you with yours without your spouse present, do not have friendships with people of the opposite sex. limit contact with these people to nothing more than is needed to be polite, do not discuss life, hobbies, interests or anything else with these people
Group C- Threats
Includes- Anyone that is old enough or still young enough to be sexually active.
Response- do not be alone with them, do not flirt with them or allow them to flirt with you, do not be overly friendly with them and remember that even an unattractive person can become attractive to you if you let them meet EN's. They should not be on your Facebook etc and they should not have your contact info (phone number, email address etc)
Group D- Low Threats
Includes- the elderly and people too young to be considered sexually mature
Response- Can be alone with them if they need assistance but try and have someone else present if possible to avoid accustations of abuse or molestation
Group E- No Threat
Includes- dead people and people that are known to be gay or blood relatives
Response- pretty much anything goes, they are safe


Ok, next ACTION:
Spend TIME together. You MUST get 20+ hours. I don't care how you do it or what you sell, heck you could live on one kidney (joke, joke) but this IS serious.

YOU take responsibility for this. YOU get with your wife and schedule this time together. ACTUALLY SCHEDULE IT.

There is no emotion involved here. This is ACTION. Get a calendar and a PEN. Sit with your wife, and write out your daily schedule and REMOVE independent time. Don't let your wife get up until you get the 20 hours. Do it this weekend for next week, then next weekend for the week after that. Do it EVERY week.

There is no 'thinking' to this, no emotion. Just action.

Final ACTION
Honesty. Be honest with your wife. Tell her about every interaction you had with every person through the day.

Again, no thinking or emotion involved. Just the action of opening your mind and let your brain spill itself out in words.

Not alot of emotion to this plan, but a lot of ACTION. Nothing stopping you from acting. The emotions will emerge if you ACT.

So - does it sound like a plan?

Taking off now, gotta soothe a cramp in my fingers.

T/J

Hi Vibrissa,

I just had posted to someone on another forum and looked here and saw Mr. Emo's thread had been updated. I just have to say WOW, I am honestly impressed!

I do not know if you have ever posted on writer's thread - it is over on 101. From what I have seen of your writings and advice it is very sound, down-to-earth, and encouraging. Each to his/her own, but I happen to think she would benefit from some of your encouragement at this time.

Tom

I think there is a lot of truth in what you have written here. The fact is I do hate who/what im becoming and feel powerless to stop it, almost like a rollercoaster with no brakes.

Ive never been happy with myself for various reasons but always seemed to do alright in life but now it feels like the wheels have come off and im making bad choice after bad choice and no one has my back because the one person who would help me is at the wrong end of the end choices and getting hurt herself.

Being on here does help although I know I drive you lot mad but somethings slowly get through although it does take a while. The break away from MB for the first 8 months of the year definately did damage.

I know this may seem pathetic considering where I should be at but im happy inside that im looking into anger management as I've never liked my internal frustration outbursts but as it was so rare and always at inanimate objects it never got checked.

Im not religious in any way but I think you already guessed that. In terms of practicing humility this may sound ridiculous but I don know how to go about that; as you've also stated and myself to above, I deeply justify EVERYTHING and its very rare I'll say sorry for something insantly unless its obvious whats happened and I understand it immediately (very rare).

A huge put of the problem and my wife is aware of this and it drives her nuts but I have to be honest with her regardless. I dont EVER reflect on things or carry ANY bagage with me. You cant even begin to understand how hard this makes recovery from the affair. My wife is like a walking encyclopedia of the affair, details, times, images - the lot and carries it everywhere (although her outbursts have become very controlled and infrequent - her own personal recovery), but unless we sit down and talk about the affair I dont think about it.

Now imagine me trying to understand my wifes anger at random times of day, or random triggers (im pretty good at spotting triggers that happened because of something). I get defensive as I almost dont know where its come from.

Im someone that only lives in the moment which is very dangerous as Vibrissa keeps saying. If im at work then thats it, if im shopping then thats it, at home that it - you get the picture, there are no crossing or overlapping thoughts. This is why so many bad decisions are made on my behalf because I dont consider the backlash/consequences.

I know this must make painful reading but im being honest about how far gone I am. Writing this is making me feel very ashamed and actually quite emotional!!!! (shocker).

Im in a very honest mood today as you can read from my last post to Tom.

Your post doesnt make much sense to me and I'll tel you why:

Justifications is all about 'buts', absolutely, and when talking/apologising to my wife just leaving the 'but' out is VERY DANGEROUS in my opinion as not speaking the 'but' doesnt mean its gone or doesnt exist, it still VERY much exists. If my wife then believes everything is good and honest and remorseful etc thats fine. Until one day when I slip up (enevitable as the 'but' is still alive and kicking in me) she then gets hurt again and it gets labelled as regression.

Maybe im missing something somewhere in which case please do readdress this but its NOT easy to stop justifying AND MEAN IT. Hence the need to councilling etc to stop the deep issue that im not controlling.

Do not apologise for 'pounding me' as you are reading I need it more than most and in fact I really respond to your thoughtful and gentle approach.

Your VERY right when you say I engage in risky behaviour. This is the story of my day to day life. Sometimes I know im doing it and sometimes I dont. Can be from something like spending an extra 10minutes on facebook instead of working on my marriage or posting here, or to something like putting an 'x' on a text message to a female friend.

The truth is as I posted to you just now, I dont think enough fullstop. I wish I could make it sound more intelligent or a clever plan but no its the way Ive been for as long as I can remember (we're talking childhood here).

Just briefly as im not going to get caught up here but the alcohol issue bugs me. My wife only requested i dont drink on my 4 week training course - never anything else. She doesnt have any issue with me drinking even after the violent episode (of course I've asked her many times). However since that day (mid July) I can honestly say I've had maybe 2 drinks?? Im not a drinker and my wife knows it, although if we have a party in the future etc I will control my drink levels out of respect for the violence issue.

Ok im ashamed to admit this but I've always been runner and everytime the marriage got really tough emotionally I would try to leave, this has happened a few times POST affair.

Now my wife has been brought up in a culture where marriage is forever regardless of what happens within it. Failure is not an option (Steve quote there).

So you see the problem here, I've tried to leave as I knew I could never match or please my wife emotionally and she deseves to be happy, she would hate this and call me a quiter etc.. and wished I would fight to save the family rather than just leaving. Steve (Harley) tried to instill a failure is not an option attitude in me and so now between them, when my wife gets fed up and wants to throw me out, I now want to stay.

I know everyone (my wife, kids and myself) would probably be safer if I left and at least I know my wifes main trigger (me and my behaviour) would be out of site and her personal recovery could begin.

I dont doubt my wifes 'physical will' to survive and thrive without me, and I dont doubt I would be true to my kids and still help my wife as much as possible. My concern would be her 'mental will', she has been through a life of hell and that was before I got started. She has tried to take her life no several occassions, and I dont mean cry for help I mean to really end it. This has happened a couple of times when we have been close to breaking up so what I meant by 'on her side, she is taking a chance to leave too' was that it may not be as simple (not easy) as leave, plan B etc... I wasnt being arrogant.

At the moment; if you read my response to Tom above; you will see I feel like im on a roller coaster to being a person I dont like or recognise. After the violence incident my first reaction was to leave as I didnt want to get worse whether it took days, weeks or years and I feel that this situation (emotionally overwhelming) is only going to make my frustrations worse.

I love my wife and kids and dont want to lose this family and I always dreamed of our big family in 10 years all grown up having big holidays, christmas' etc but im really scared im not good for it.

The other thing you need to realise is that unless shes suddenly changed after 28 years she has always stressed that if we were to seperate (me move out) she would completely cut me off as this is her survival mechanism. I have seen her do this to friends who have wronged her over the years. So again; even a break for her to personally recover and grow stronger and for me to realise what life without them would be like and to make progress with the anger management to at least ensure my family would be physically safe, would be fruitless as the family would be dead. Hence the fact that although shes talking of Plan B, I have my doubts if thats her intention at all.

Yesterday my wife asked me if I take advantage of her, as I know she doesnt want to leave and therefore I keep abusing her safe that she will stay with me. My honest response was "not that I know of, Ive never had that thought or anything like it, so unless im doing it subconciously no definately not."

I know my posts today make painful reading but im being very open and honest.



I would be exceedingly stupid not to agree here. My actions rather than words have proved this to be true, time and time again, I dont have any other female friends only on my wifes side and hey are her friends foremost and both very well balanced and happily married, and I NEVER spend time alone with them. I work alone rather than in a work enviroment so that hugely limits female interaction although the few times I do see them we are usually alone. This cant be avoided due to the nature of my work, but all my jobs are recorded time wise through computers, my equipment is tracked and I record the same data on my paperwork which is faxed to base at the end of every shift and they are all cross referenced and mch match up. I know this isnt full proof as we've all seen the lengths we go to to have affairs but im just trying to give you an idea of potential dangers. This job is the best setup security wise for me other than finding an all male work force.

But the need for boundries is still aparent and im going to sit down in my own time and write a new list of boundries for myself and then sit down with my wife and go through them. I will then set about treating them like the law as your inital statement was correct and I should distance myself from females in general.



Im afraid im going to disagree with most of this, but ill explain why.

I CANT talk to my wife as shes so low with things that any critisim is taken straight to heart and causes either severe arguments or severe withdrawl. Plus if we end up talking about me and how im feeling she'll go crazy. So NO I cannot talk with my wife at this point or anytime soon and I dont blame her for that but its also not healthy for me to keep everything inside as the frustration out burts show.

In terms of my wife, who doesnt she talk to?? Everyone knows almost everything about me and our life, all our friends male and female, my parents etc... Ok most of that is more complaining than talking but she does have a very close friend who lives about an hour away she loves more than life itself. They talk very openly and honestly about the whole situation.

I have male friends but they are either single, not experienced relationship wise, young and immature or just a typical bloke that landed a typical wife (i.e him work/pub her house clean). Only person that could be useful is my wifes friend's (mentioned above) partner. Hes in a similar position to me in that he works hard, has a partner with health issues etc.... They've been together for longer than us and although having u[s and downs as any family are more in love than ever.

Now im writing this I may have to explore this further. We've always got on, but never really spent time together but we are taking up cycling together as hes a keen enthuiast and I used to love it. This could be a good way to bond and i'll see how we get on.

My parents are a major no go as they are worse than me emotionally and drive my wife insane. They are lovely people but not in 30 years have they had one meaningful conversation with me. Not even growing up like shaving/deodrant/sex etc... nothing, left to fend for myself and find out the hard way. Since the affair they have voiced anger and concerns to my wife at multiple stages but NEVER expressed them to me!!



Hmmmm I've had to rethink this answer quite a few times. yes im going to deny any possibility of an affair with the friend. When she was living here she was caring for me and helping me with my workload etc... we had plenty of time together alone, without my wife, it would have been the easiest affair on the planet. But regardless of her feelings for me; im not psychic but my wife doesnt think she had any; I dodnt want anything. I sought sanctuary with someone that understood my life and me.

But regardless of what I write, I've had an affair once so I guess anythings possible and its not as if im aware of things or meanings of things half the time so im kind out stuck here.




Ok point proved, I'll disntance myself from any innpropriate contact however minor it may appear to me at face value.



Ok I need to read the EP thread but I've read the rest. I will get to it, but its getting late as im slow at reponding to posts of this magnitude and depth.

So the list of threats should be fine for me as im not in contact with any ex's. Dont dream at all, EVER. Dont have any contact with POSOW. Dont have any female friends anymore. Not adding any females on facebook whether I know them or not.

As I said above I do have work colleagues who I have to meet up with for 2 officer jobs but they are short but technically still have alone time. This must be my area of focus.


One seperate observation as its CURRENTLY irrelevant to me, its a little ridiculous for someone to have NO friends of the opposite sex. Unless every single child in the world is sent to single sex schools and told the other sex is evil this will never work?? I know by the time people find MB they have already been devestated by affairs but this still seems a little unrealistic??? Does this mean every vet here has single sex friends, I DOUBT IT VERY MUCH!!!

Remember I said above was just an observation as not relevant for me as I dont have female friends and now am of an age where I dont need to make any.



Ok just asked wife if we should give this a go. I dont want to fight this for no reason but I predict almost all 20hours will come from kids time!! I work evenings remember, but fine I understand without this time the kids wouldnt have a family anyway so I guess its a lose lose situation for them.

We will sit down this weekend as you suggested and see how it goes...... will report back.

Now my fingers and mind have cramp, so thanks, all joking aside I can see you put serious time and thought into this post and as Tom below said WOW.

Thanks

Y-E:

Your a good guy, BUT....

You work hard, BUT....

You don't beat anyone else, BUT....

You could do better, BUT....

I was angry with you, BUT....

I have never been healthly, BUT....

ManU could win it all, BUT....

When EVERYTHING you say, ends in a BUT, then nothing you say has any meaning.

If you need to apologize to BH28, then you apologize:

BH28, I am sorry that I have done the following to you, it was horrible of me to do that, and I am working on controlling my anger and learning new ways to deal with this. THEN STOP.

There is no excuse for your behavior.

No BUT's need to be added to the above.

Your circumstances about your issues are to be discussed later, and a different format. One that is disconnected from placing ANY blame on BH28 for YOUR actions.

You can be ANGRY. That is your choice. That was your response to something that happened to you. BUT no BUTS are needed. Something happened, and YOU went to anger, and not to thinking "why am I responding to this with so much anger?"

Your not emotionally backward. Your just lazy. And its easier to be angry than in changing your behaviors.

LG

As far as justifying goes...you just stop. And those "but" in your head, you STOP dwelling on them. This whole "I won't do it until I mean it" is just more deflection. You don't mean it because you don't mean it because as long as you don't mean it you don't have to do it. You are making it hard....on purpose.

You say "I am sorry that my action (fill in the blank) hurt you. I do not want to hurt you, and I will make sure I act differently in the future." There is nothing dishonest in that. Just because you didn't get to mention what they did to "precipitate" your action doesn't mean it's dishonest. THAT is a big part of humility.

I am a natural born manipulator. Maybe it's the BP, maybe it's me. But I pretty much can spot every trick in the book. The emotionally stunted victim who knows he's wrong BUT is your gimmick. But it doesn't wash. You have to let go of it.

yllan - I have read your entire thread and I am just left angry and baffled by your responses and behavior.

Similar to you, I consider myself "emotionally stunted". I had terrible relationship role models for parents and for (almost) too long, I hurt my husband by being emotionally reclusive. I couldn't understand where he was coming from or how to be a better spouse.

But I have been on this site, reading, learning from others and actively putting into practice the information I absorb from this site. My approach? Start with rational thinking since the emotional hasn't come naturally in the past. Approach your marriage like you were a student in school.

1. Study
2. Take notes
3. Set goals
4. Get feedback
5. Analyze your progress
6. Ask questions
7. Learn from mistakes
8. "Turn in quality work"

Look at this this way. If you turn in a paper that's poorly researched and executed, the teacher is going to give you a FAIL and won't care what your excuses are (busy, tired, too big a class load, etc). Your marriage is the same way. If you keep up this behavior and think you can make excuses and justify your way out of anything you do, your marriage is going to FAIL.

Honestly, I can't believe BH28 has put up with you and your narcissistic behavior for as long as she has, and knowing her patience is at the end, you are STILL unwilling to put in the effort to repair your relationship.

In addition to the rule of no longer having ANY female friends, you should also no longer be able to use the word "but".

Like LG said, you are LAZY. And laziness will see your right out of your marriage.

Hi Emo,

I have to admit to you that I am not a veteran here, nor do I pass myself off to be. I am just a guy who has a 40+ year marriage still. Point of fact is that my wife is in a nursing home so we have been living apart for a year now altho we do see each other regularily. There was a few months affair while she was in the home - on her part - and that is initially why I came here. That ended quite a few months ago. On the other hand I have lived thru her manic-depression for some 35 years. So, I am not anywhere near a veteran - just a concerned person.

That being said Emo, let's just take a time out for your sake. I understand that to some you seem resistant, belligerant, intolerable, and downright ignorable. But, give yourself credit for the, what I believe is, honest and courageous assessment of yourself and your situtation. So, in the time out here, just a guy hug and handshake for you just doing that.

Now that you are at this point, think of going farther. That is, consider telling your W what you expressed on here, and internalize that. Emo, just as a lay person, but using logic and my experience in marriage, I think it is a matter of will in your case as well as a matter of humility. The will to do the right things, and to honor yourself and your W.

Let me give you a quote:

The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather a lack of will.
Vince Lombardi

You probably know very little about him, he was just a football coach way back long ago, and yea he was successful. The point of referring this quote to you is to encourage you to exercise your free will, and you have it, to be courageous enough to submit to the knock downs, the fear, and the discomforts to do whatever it takes to change yourself for the sake of your W, your kids, your M, and yourself.

Take care,

Tom

LG, Lurioosi and Tom:

Ok everyone seems to be saying the same thing so I guess there must be some truth in it.

Im going to do as you say and will report back progress made and thoughts on the situation.

Im not palming off your posts by this shorter than normal answer but the theme is resounding and I guess im ready to give growing up a try.

If I come on here and justify from this point on (not that you didnt before) please pull me up as this is a HUGE MONUMENTAL thing for me. A way of life almost.


p.s. thanks for the man2man encouragement Tom lol

Ok I cant argue my way out of this and Vibrissa's advice as its logical. Im afraid of tasking out my marriage like a project as I dont think my wife will feel its genuine or sincere but then its still got to be better than what shes going through at the moment; about to lose the marriage.

I will trust you that once I get to grips with things, the emotions will follow. At least if she can see some regular input, effort and more importantly results then I guess we're on the right path eh??


I dont expect any feedback on this as I've said similar things like this in the past and earlier in my thread so I'll know ill have to post back results instead.

Have a good day all.....

hmmmm just read 'cantgetitright' thread : http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2422986#Post2422986

I will definately be following this thread as I have the same attitude a lot of the time.....

i.e. not taking into consideration anyone but my wants/needs etc... Im definately changing this attitude; the above thread is dedicated to it and not mixed as per my thread so I will follow the advice given closely.

Little update today,

last night wife got another reply from 'friends' previous family. My wife has been messaging them to find out the extent of the deceit. So it seems that from the story we were told that was the partner was crazy and nothing happened between friend and husband, it was him who was acting innapropriately towards her. The truth is the they were having sex in the family home right under the nose of the wife. Anyway HUGE amounts of lying about just about everything we had been told.

Im now very grateful my wife is a great judge of character and saw though this disguise and am very grateful she is out of our lives.

So my wife is setting about destroying the 'friend'. She has forwarded all the emails to the new family where the friend is staying. She asked me to be completely honest with her about anything the friend could fight back with and if she found out something had happened between me and the friend then my marriage would be over instantly. Fair point.

So I thought about anything the friend could twist (she seems to be a pro) and sat down and had a chat with my wife:

1)I promised that no innappropriate physcial conact had taken place and no complements etc....

2)The only things I could think of was one night my wife was working and I wasnt starting work til 8pm. My 9 year old was sitting in the computer chair watching tv and we were both sitting on the sofa. She was crying her eyes out about her life blah blah blah. I felt awkward as im not very comfortable around emotions. She was holding a pillow so I told her to lay down on the sofa and I played with her hair to relax her. his lasted about 10mins and my son was in the room, nothing else happened and after that she got up and we talked normally and then I went to work.

2) Another time I was giving her advice about her life etc... and she said I love you, its like having my brother around (he lives in Bulgaria) and that made her feel happy. I replied Yeah love you too sis.

3) Same convo via text message, she sent love you bruv, and I sent love you too.


This was the only things I could think of that she could somehow try and twist.

My wife seemed happy with my honesty and just took sometime to point out the innapropriateness with the 'love' comments whatever context they were said in. I do get this now and wont be repeating this. Again seemed innocent at the time but still has an wrongness about it.

She appeared confortable to believe me and we fell asleep cuddling.