My mother told my dad (and me) that, word for word.

My WW has had bronchitis for about 6 weeks now. She is coughing almost nonstop. Not sure if it's related to the stress of the affair, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Maybe something related to following your feelings is impulsivity. I don't know if this is true or not, but I question whether waywards (both male and female) tend to be impulsive people, acting now and thinking about it later or not at all.

AM

Hi,

I saw your post the other night, and now feel I wanted to reply.

Now that I have had a chance to express myself and to thing things thru, do you know what, I think that wayward whoevers relates to PRIDE...basically to false pride.

My wife has told me this several times.

Pride is good, when interanlized as a sort of thing that establishes self esteem and confidence and love for others in terms of aharing your succsess and aomplisments. It is good in that it also encourages humility. It turns sour however when a person uses it to self advantage.

Pride is the result of a good consience, a good life, values that your parents taught you, and your efforts to achieve your successes in this world based on these things.

So, Pepper, when looking at a partner, does he/she have good pride in himself/herself, and does he/she aslo have humility, and have no fear in exposing himself or herself.

Your dichotomy is good, but I thing you need to incorportate the concepts of pride and humility.

Tom

Pepper..
First of all, just being able to vent here and be able to read and witness other peoples' way of handling an affair within their marriage has been for me a blessing. I have a much better perspective now of C and me than I did even a week ago. Even tho I didn't have contact with her for the first few days of this week until we got together Thursday and then we cried and held hands, the reason I did not contact her was because of my pride and lack of humility over being hurt or letting myself be hurting with no reaction on my part.

Anyway, Pepperband seems to have a pretty solid idea of what it takes to commit to a marriage. She describes the 'run-of-the-mill wayward as opposed to the not so run. The former as Pepper describes, has enough pride (self respect) to know he/she has done wrong and has violated his/her values and sacrad promise, and enough humility to ask for forgiveness, and to INTEND to amend. The not run of the mill does not have either of these virtures - pride (self respect) or humility (dedication, devotion, and sacrafice).

That being said I guess now I would like to get preachy..*s*

When I was young I was raised in the Catholic faith. Right after high school, I went to the seminary with a feeling that I had a, as they say, "calling". For my own personal reasons I left after two years. At any rate, I believe it was a calling.

As part of my training while I was there, and not only that, but just simply common knowledge, I believe that marriage is also a calling. Okay, meaning specifially from God (or your higher power, or whatever you believe that concept to be). Yea, the desire to marry and be with a partner is hormones, the dating game, the need, the pleasure, the culture, and the ideal life, but it is a calling. I once had a wise priest friend of mine tell me that marriage is way above all other callings, because Two people have to commit together, instead of just a priest, or a nun, or a rabbi, or a minister committing to their church or synagogue, or to their God for the matter, or a person who wants to remain single and is committed to their career. For these people who dedicate their lives to God, well God is a Perfect, all consuming lover. So, that 'marriage' has a head start. Not that all clergy have held to their vows as we have all so sadly witnessed in the past several years.

Marriage is a union of two Imperfect people.

Well, it is getting late here, and I find this helpful to me just to express, but probably not to many of you, but I would like to express more, but probably tomoorw.

Thanks,

Tom

Tom, Your observations are very interesting, and I hope you will post more of them.

Pep

Interesting to re-address this thread. I have a thought to "chuck out there".

IME many wives who live moral married lives actually ENVY the drama of adultery, promiscuity and deception. Almost ASPIRE to it. They look at Angelina Jolie and see a woman living an exciting life by her own rules ! [/movie trailer music] as a stark counterpoint to their own domesticated life.

They dabble with IB , flirting and too much intimacy with men outside their marriage which escalates at first all within manageable boundaries to begin with, just to feel what the sweet-sour taste of excitement is like rolling around their mouth.

They PLACE THEMSELVES in harms way for an affair - by in part desiring / admiring this way of experiencing excitement.

This application of drama can lead to otherwise GOOD MORAL women suspending their moral code for a while, even adopting some type "behaviours for a season.

I have seen this in more than a couple of the folks I have coached. What you think ?

On humility:

I saw an episode of Dr. Drew's *Sober House* the other night. He talked about how addicts rarely possess anything resembling humility and almost always think that "humility" and "humiliation" are the same thing.

In an attempt to impart some humility, the Sober House residents were required to go and do some hard physical work that many would consider humiliating - especially those who have had some level of fame and always had "other people" to do such work for them.

The were split up into small groups and given tasks like doing laundry at a homeless shelter, cleaning a restaurant including the restrooms, and moving 90-pound bales of hay on a ranch (I've done that one and so has my son!)

The hay-movers all did well and seemed to get the lesson: That honest hard work is good for you and lets you feel good about yourself.

The other two groups either did "okay" or were very resentful of the work they had to do. Some of them walked out and refused.

It was quite enlightening. I'd venture to say that the extreme selfishness displayed by any sort of addict manifests in thinking that "humility" and "humilation" are the same thing, and in refusing to do anything that they consider "humilating" - you know, like sincerely apologizing to those they have hurt and/or cleaning up the mess they have made of their lives.

I guess you're supposed to have "other people" do those things for you.

I dunno, Bob - I sometimes think that "normal" people are so appalled by what their friends and family are doing that they just don't have the nerve to stand up to them. They really don't know what do to, so they tell themselves it must be okay if their friend/family member is doing it.

And plenty of them would never have the nerve to cheat themselves, so they enjoy it vicariously through others (again telling themselves that it must be okay if my friend or my family member is doing it) and rarely see the true fallout and damage - they only see the fun! Do they also hang around and enjoy the divorce proceedings and the custody trials and the loss of homes and careers?

Also: Men get stupid about women with sexy bodies who act available. Women get stupid about men with any sort of status in their field who pay attention to them.

This can make any good moral person suspend their moral code if they're not smart enough to see it for what it is - not love, not soulmates, not destiny, but just basic animal instinct with no human sense to override it.

I think that's what you're seeing.

bump

thanks!

I think this thread is very interesting having read it all. The statement that 90% of the WWs are in romantic A triggered this post because I have noticed an effect with WW:

Often a WW will accept or even initiate sex just keep their OP interested. But afterwards a woman far more often than a man is likely to think: "I have had sex with him. Then I must be in love with him!"

Thus, for a male BS it is most important to bust the A before it turns PA. After the A turns PA the romantic involvement and dedication in the WW will make a recovery much harder.

Bump for kanonymous .... FYI.

I think there is a lot of truth to this. Although I think neglect may add to the feeling "if you can't beat them join them"...and likely thining being the "good wife" sure didn't get her squat.

Thanks for the bump pepperband.

My WW seems like the run of the mill WW.

All except for the no prior adultery part. She slept with a married man before and cheated on her ex fiance (now the OM) when they were engaged with me (now the BS) and who knows who else.

BUMP

I don't know if this applies to run of the mill WW's or just really annoying WW's, but lots of WW's have the idea that they have suffered more hurt than any other person on the planet, therefore THEIR affair was slightly different and slightly more understandable than everyone else's. You know they have truly de-fogged, in part, when they drop the victim routine.

My God, this describes my WW to a "T".