I'll explain the spare bedroom thing - read on. I would say she is not brushing the A off, but has she accepted the full gravity of what she did yet? Probably not.

Working on this, but question: the message has already been delivered LOUD AND CLEAR, in a way that I am very satisfied with. My WW expressed to OMW already (which OMW promptly told OM) that she is filled with remorse and does not want OM to ever contact her again and has no desire to ever contact OM again. It was worded strongly with mo cushy, lovey mixed messages. Is this sufficient? I am not balking here, just wondering if it needs to be reiterated in some formal letter when the message has already been sent to my satisfaction
In place.
Considering this, we will see.
Will do.
Not yet - this one is a sticker, but I will be firm and insistent until it is in place. I understand COMPLETELY that this shows her commitment is not where it should be yet. I have no intention of accepting this indefinitely. In the meantime, I have my intel.
Done. She even agrees this is a bad idea for her right now.

I am considering this.

FYI, I thought you'd all appreciate this. I spoke with MIL on the phone and she never offered to pay for my WW's divorce. Another lie.

Okay, questions:

1. Where do I start? The lies were so numerous! I'm not kidding, I could probably list off 100 that I know of - what do I do, sit and go down a list with the OMW? Not balking, just wondering. I have already told the OMW the blanket statement that my WW lied EXTENSIVELY to OM about many, many things during A. How granular do I get?
2. OMW seems to want to move forward and work on her M with OM now, and doesn't seem to want to take part in this exercise. How do I handle that?

Okay, I think that's everything, now a general update:

Hmmm...well, I see that she is in and out of the fog right now. She vacillates a lot, and I am getting better and better at spotting it. I understand it is very early on which is why my expectations are low.

My DW was always good at stepping back from herself and observing her own feelings/thoughts from a distance. One of the thing that scared me the most about my WW was that she completely lost the ability to do this - she was living IN her feelings from moment to moment and letting them rule her. Over the last few days, I have seen a change - she is finally observing herself again. She acknowledges her feelings and thoughts (wayward and darling), but seems to understand she shouldn't act on either of them yet.

Over the last few days she has become civil - no more AOs. She still "feels" like we are getting a D but she understands that she needs to go through withdrawal and that she may feel differently in the future, hence, she has agreed to not make any decisions or re-open D talk for at least 2 months (our DD is about to start school, etc.) She acknowledges that she still has days, times, and moments where she is angry at me for what I did but she knows she shouldn't be and is confused by this, so in those moments she just backs off a bit and waits for it to pass.

She also finally said she wants nothing to do with OM ever again and is finally understanding that he would have used and abused her for sex. She is also having a lot of troubling deep thoughts about herself and "what is wrong with her". She also realiezed yesterday that OM is dangerous for her and even is she were single she should never be in contact with him again - she recognizes it would just be her getting into another abusive relationship. Twice in the last two days she actually, in a meek way, "thanked" me for ending it. She called me her hero (???) but wouldn't say anymore.

As for her positive feelings for me, she seems confused by these too and moves in and out of them as well. Yesterday everyone was starting to feel better and it was the last day of the State Fair. Before I could even suggest it, she asked if we could go and take the kids and just have a family day. So we did. I dressed attractively, wore her favorite cologne, and was fun and my old self. As the day went on, she got closer and closer to me. Halfway through the day she was kissing me and hugging me and affectionate with me. She still seems confused about our future though, and now seems confused again about staying or going.

Last night we put the kids to bed and watched a movie together. She had been feeling very attracted to me (but conflicted) all evening but was expressing concern that she thought she was too conflicted and we should wait a while before being intimate again, if ever. That lasted about an hour and of course we fell into bed (it was very good for both). Mistake?

She cuddled with me before bed but then went into the guest room to sleep. This morning she was nice with me but was mad at herself for doing what she did - she says she is still very confused and doesn't feel like she should be doing that stuff with me if she is this conflicted about it.

I see two possibilities here:

1. She is still totally WW and is trying to manipulate me. I accept that this is a possibility, but I can't see to what end because she knows A is OVER on his side and is saying it is over on hers as well. She keeps saying, "I can't believe this day came. It's actually over." Sometimes she cries about it, sometimes she is angry at her realization of his real motives, and sometimes she just accepts it. Also, she just seems far more introspective than she has in MONTHS.

2. She is being honest - she is really confused right now and is starting to withdraw and come out of the fog, but keeps also being drawn back in. Her feelings for me are shifting rapidly between love and anger, attraction and distance and she is confused by this too. Like last night, after being intimate, she said something about how amazing it was and then said, "I hope I don't get weird about this now."

Help me make sense of this, because it affects how I relate to her. I have been believing #2 and therefore have taken opportunities I have been given to meet her ENs. Am I doing this right?

I would call her up and tell her it is important that her H understands that you wife lied about almost everything. Then just give a basic overview so she gets the point. After that, I would tell your wife that he has now been told that everything she said was a pack of lies.

The whole purpose of this exercise is to burn that bridge entirely so she knows there is no going back. It is also to teach her that you are not an ENABLER, you are a loving husband.

There are some things that worry me about your posts, Humbled. It doesn't sound like the commitment is there from your WW, and I think you're setting the bar too low.

A few observations:

You're balking at the NC letter, but your post states that your WW talked to OMW, not OM, to deliver the verbal NC statement. She needs to write a letter - not a phone call - to formally sever her ties to OM. The letter needs to be read and approved by you, and sent to OM by you. This is to be done as an act of commitment for YOU. To allow her to pass the message on via a phone call to OMW won't do. You've set the bar too low.

You say you have 20+ UA "in place" - that's not possible yet. What you mean is that you like the idea and you PLAN to accomplish 20+. Let us know how that goes. Remember, 20+, just you and her, undivided attention.

You are on the fence about counselling with the Harleys. Yet you're good with sending her for IC - be careful with that. Some IC counselors should never have been given a degree.

You're "going" to read HNHN. Great - let us know when both of you are done reading that. Have you gotten the book yet? Has your WW started reading yet? Order it from this website - they ship quickly. You'll have it within a day or two. Get going on this.

She is balking at transparency. A truly remorseful wayward typically will knock themselves out to give up their passwords and email accounts, etc. You need to invest in a keylogger. And a GPS. You can't take the car seats every time you leave the house. What if there is an emergency and she has to get the kids somewhere quickly? And remember - waywards are creative. Heck, if I were her this one would be easy! I'd just go to an inexpensive store and pick up a couple of seats and hide them.

At least she's agreed to avoid talking to other men. So far as you know.

You've set the bar too low.

Has she read HNHN? In this book, as well as in SAA, Dr. Harley does a fantastic job of explaining how affairs happen - even non physical affairs. My wife read this, and it helped her to understand how it happened and why it happened. Our MC also helped with this. The result is that she no longer felt like some kind of freak who got so emotionally messed up with a guy just through texting, a few phone calls, and FB messages. She hadn't seen the guy in over 40 years, but was in love! This was making her crazy. Once she figured out that she wasn't alone and there wasn't anything 'wrong with her' (other than poor boundaries and choices, of course) she felt like it was ok to start healing our relationship.

Hope this makes sense. Other FWWs can tell you more about that whole dynamic.

I agree. It is not yet.

We were already doing this before exposure, and we are starting to again. Undivided attention.

Will do.


Agreed, completely. And I already have a great KL.


Okay, understanding and agreeing with all of this. But I am confused - I thought the whole point was for her to go through withdrawal so she COULD recommit to the M? I admit fully and from reading my posts you should see - I DON'T have full commitment from her. She is still very confused. She still thinks we might D. I have no intention of walking into marital recovery like this! I just assumed she was going to go through withdrawal and continue getting tough love from her family and eventually, if the withdrawal broke her addiction and I continued to work Plan A, I would get the commitment everyone seems to be looking for now. What am I missing?

She knows you stood up for her and fought for your marriage. This is a good thing.



Heck no! You are doing just great, Humbled! Just keep this up for a couple more days and then it will be time to set her down and discuss a plan of recovery. I would start thinking about this now. Did you see my post about counseling with the Harleys or doing the online program? You don't have to recover your marriage that way, but it is the fastest horse.

And the way I would approach this is to set her down and tell her that you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness and keep you interested in the marriage if she will do certain things. Tell her you have no intention of enduring this pain again or in staying in a crippled, loveless marriage where she sleeps in the guest room and threatens divorce. What you want is a happy, romantic, fulfilled marriage for BOTH of you.

She needs to understand that it will not suffice that she just ended the affair. That is just the first step and you are not interested in the status quo. Waywards are very entitled and otherwise believe that you should just be grateful for their majestic presence. It is best to lovingly disabuse them of that notion early on.

I would outline the affair proofing and marital recovery steps as presented in this article:

Can't we Just Forgive and Forget?

I would start raising the bar NOW otherwise she will live down to your - lack of - expectations.

You are doing just great, my friend!

Humbled, I just don't want you to slide into a state of complacency and accept what's happening right now as your status quo. I don't want to see you accept your WW sleeping in the spare bedroom. I don't want you to accept R on your WW's terms. I fear you will have a FR in that case. Please make sure you've got a solid plan for R.

I have no intentions of that. Regardless of what my WW's fog-addled brain has said, we had a GREAT marriage in many ways. We used to have all each others' passwords, but we never needed to check them. We slept together. We didn't spend enough time together (that is being corrected). We had all the things you are recommending - I am not willing to downgrade my M, but upgrade it! I just need her to go through more withdrawal before I will see the commitment level I need.

Well, then - full speed ahead! You're on the right track!

Good! I thought it was the beginning of this kind of thinking but I didn't want to get my hopes up.


Whew! Thank you - I worried I had made a mistake. I will keep working on avoiding LBs and meeting whatever ENs she lets me for the remainder of the week and see how things go.

I am HEARING all of you - trust me I have no intentions of moving into recovery phase without these conditions being met! Meanwhile I am just trying to enjoy myself - I am enjoying the time I can spend with my wife and I am trying to enjoy the freedom I have when she needs alone time.

I will fill out the ENs questionnaire, buy the book and read it, and improve my Plan A from here.

Stay the course, Humbled, you're doing a great job.I sincerely wish I had taken the steps that you are and have already. Would have saved me some heartache!

You're getting great advise and support - we're glad you're here.

Hey, Humbled, we haven't heard from you in a few days - how's it going?

Just wondering how you are and how things are going. I hope that no news is good news.....please update us!

Hi All,

Quick update: We are still early on (1.5 weeks in). Withdrawal and Plan A seem to be going well, but I am no expert. I hope I am doing all this right. I want everyone to understand that I KNOW we are not in Recovery yet - she is still wayward in many respects, but she does seem to be getting LESS wayward every day. She still vacillates between reality and fog, and I can see it more clearly now. I have not agreed to just take her back without conditions - she knows what these are.

The bad:
1. Formal NC letter has not gone out. I will not stop pressing on this one.
2. WW still mentions divorce occasionally, but not in a threatening way anymore (more confused?).
3. WW still technically sleeps in the guest room.
4. WW still has a fake FB profile where she tries to lurk/spy on OM and OMW when I am at work but there has been no contact nor any attempt at contact. This one bothers me most but I can't reveal yet without revealing my KL. My DW has always been an obsessive person, so this behavior is not unusual for her, but I don't like that she is lying about it.

The good:
1. We are spending lots of UA time together.
2. She gave me her FB password and understands that I will check it.
3. I have ordered HNHN, SAA, and LBs and they should be here any day (any advice on which one to have her read first?).
4. I seem to be meeting her ENs better and no LBs. She is making a sincere effort to meet my ENs too and is doing a good job.
5. Some of her feelings for me seem to be slowly returning - she is very affectionate and we have been intimate 4 times this week. She seems much less conflicted about me. She is not withdrawing from me anymore, but getting closer by the day.
6. More and more remorse is slowly coming out. She knows now how wrong what she did is.
7. With the exception of her fake FB account, she is being radically honest with me. She has been very open about her withdrawal and has been honest with me when she is feeling compelled or tempted, and she has been insightful as to why. She turns to me when she is feeling lonely or tempted now.
6. She has been very introspective lately, and is talking a lot about what happened and admitting it has to do with HER issues, not the marriage. She is opening up about her childhood abuse and has agreed to go to IC/MC.
7. She understands she should not be in contact with ANY OM right now. I have phone and internet monitored and she is only talking with family and two female friends.
8. She slept in our marital bed last night - I am assuming this will be temporary and she may withdraw after this. The D talk has mostly stopped - she mostly talks about our future. But she said something weird the other day - she said that she was reluctant to move back into our bedroom because that would be like "admitting" she wasn't getting a D. Thoughts on this? It seemed to slip out and I don't think she realized she said it that way. Does she know deep down that the D talk was wayward?

Thoughts? I am very vigilant about a FR - I know what I want and need from her before I will take her back and go back to normal. That is not where we are in our house. Where we are is an open acknowledgment that she is in withdrawal and is not where she needs to be yet, but I am seeing progress in her getting there. She seems to come around to one more of my conditions every day or two. I am open to any feedback.

I am very concerned about the "bad" list you posted. That is a recipe for FR

You need to set some boundaries, but can you get in a call to Steve Harley first??? He is VERY good at getting waywards on board and breaking thru some of the fog...