Hi All,

I need help. I love my wife and kids more than life but I may be in over my head. I'm new to these forums but I'll do my best - sorry if this is long. Our profile:

BS(H) (Me) - 38yo
WW - 37yo SAHM
OM - 37yo, married
DD - 5yo
DS - 2yo
Together 17 years
Married 7 years
Length of EA: 7 months, 1 FR for 1 month
D-Day: May 24th, 2010

My WW and I have had a very loving, sweet, and passionate marriage most of our lives, but we did fight quite a bit. I came from a very emotionally abusive home, and although I never adopted the worst of those behaviors because I could see clearly that they were wrong, I was blind to the subtle ones I was doing (teasing, dismissing feelings, debating/overanalyzing, being generally crabby and acting like a jerk sometimes because I was depressed). My WW also comes from a dysfunctional home (emotionally abusive, unfaithful, alcoholic mom).

In April (4+ months ago) I was having some anxiety issues and went into counseling. VERY quickly realized I had been severely emotionally abused as a kid and was maybe not interacting with the world the way a healthy person would (I'm candy-coating this here). So I started working on it, going to therapy, and reading everything I could. And when I came to the literature on spouses it hit me like a punch in the gut - my wife had all the symptoms - she was feeling abused by me and I had been blind to the pain I was causing her. It was the SADDEST realization of my life. I made a vow from that day forward to change and work on this for the rest of my life and give her the great husband she always deserved. I am happy to say I am following through - literally since day one I have faced my fears and insecurities, focused on never trying to control her or our situation, and gotten rid of all my annoying/insensitive behaviors. I never yell anymore and treat her and everyone with respect and love as equals. I accept now when I don't get what I want, even love. I truly am starting to feel a lot better about myself.

Here's the problem - when I started to "wake up" from my depression and my issues, I started paying more attention to my WW and listening to her more. And I noticed for the first time something was wrong. So I gently asked her about it, and gave her space to talk about it. Then a month into my therapy it all came out. Apparently she didn't have as much guilt when she thought I was a jerk, but after a month of my therapy she started to see real changes in me and loved me for it and couldn't take the guilt anymore. She slowly confessed, piece by piece.

She re-connected with a guy (OM) she liked in HS on Facebook (I HATE FACEBOOK! - the bane of all marriages). She was in true "fairy tale love". This and other sites have helped me understand that it is not real love but affair crap - I have heard all the standard fare - ILYBINILWU, we're soulmates, I wish I had married him, we "found" each other, it's not cheating it's "fate", plus the revisionist history of our marriage (I never was in love with you like a wife should be, there's something missing between us, etc.) Insanity. The sad part is that she has always told me and still does that I am 90% her dream man - the only single complaint she has ever had was my jerky depressed behavior before. She truly has always loved everything else about me and us.

The first week was agony - my whole existence was shattered. She dropped the bomb on me the first day of my new promotion at work - I almost lost the position and my job, which would've sucked because I am the sole breadwinner for my family. Thank God the OM is 1500 miles away, married, and has money problems, plus I have seen all their messages so I know there is no PA. I took the advice of another affair help site and demanded they end all contact or I would expose the affair to the OMW. My WW had no problem with this as she was ready to move into an apartment with him and start their fairy-tale romance/marriage. Predictably, when push came to shove, OM wouldn't let me tell OMW, but instead chose to drop my WW like a hot potato. It hurt her deeply but she wouldn't tell me.

She told me she was NC. I trusted her. 3 weeks of "withdrawal". We then went on vacation and tried to "re-connect" with each other. I've read this whole site and have eliminated LBs and am doing everything I can to meet her ENs. I learned fromthe affair. I really believed it was working - I actually think it did a bit. She was not ambivalent at all when the affair first came out - she wanted to leave. Since seeing my therapy and vacationing she is very ambivalent - on the fence. Anyway, she lied. She was not NC - they were chatting on FB (not on vacation but leading up to it). After our vacation OM broke it off and sent WW a letter admitting he would never leave OMW. She then sent breakup letter stating she was hurt and they would never actually be together IRL. My WW is obsessive (borderline OCD) and couldn't let go - she watched his FB page all day and re-read all their love letters. She would fade in and out of connection with me. Then a month ago she started freaking out and pressuring me like crazy to let them talk and be friends. Everything in me said no, but I felt guilty about my past behavior and I wanted to trust her so I considered. And when she sensed that weakness, she threatened to leave if I didn't let her be friends with him. I panicked. Then as I got close to saying yes, she hit me with "well, not just friends. I want to be able to talk with him the way I did before (i.e, combination of lovesick teenagers and pornographic) but it will help our marriage. I know I'll never be with him and this will help me get closure so I can focus on us again. I'll take all the love and sex feelings I get from it and put them back into our marriage while you continue your therapy."

I buckled like an idiot.

So now she is talking to him again. She was so happy with me that I let her do this, she tells me now that she just needs closure and she will figure this out and let go of him and then go through withdrawal, and then says she will commit 100% to me and this marriage again. She always tells me she loves me and that I shouldn't worry - her and I are going to be together and they never will and that it will be over in a few months.

I am so confused as to what to do next. I have been working Plan A for 3 months and it really does seem to have helped. She is more open and honest with me. She lies to him and tells me the truth most of the time (I have intelligence in place in several areas and know when she is lying, but I keep it for a rainy day). She is loving and affectionate most of the time (some days she is distant or wants space). Our sex life is suffering, but it was always fantastic (both our words) so even now it is still good. She tells me she considers ending it with OM every single day and that it isn't giving her the same hit it used to - it's making her depressed. She is also getting very jealous of OMW and obsesses over her as well.

I guess my questions are:

-Is this all a smokescreen? I've seen their messages and they make me sick and hurt, but it does look like they have both accepted that they will not ever actually be together. it is all online fantasy now and "wishes" and "dreams" and "what-ifs".

-She seems sincere when she says she is sad and depressed and never should have started this - there is recognition of her massive mistake there. She just can't seem to let go of her addiction. She calls it her Prozac. Is this just lies? Is she hoping to convince him to leave his wife?

-When do I go to Plan B?

-How do I act now during Plan A? She likes the new me and I can see that it is working, but her one complaint is that I am now clingy and insecure. I know it's true but how the hell can I not be right now?

-Do I expose to OMW? I am really scared of this one. I made a decision early on that I can forgive my wife's EA as we were both responsible for the problems in our marriage and she stuck by me when I was messed up - I owe her the same. But I cannot forgive a PA - I just can't. I'm afraid that if I expose to OMW, she will kick him out and he will find a way to see my WW and they will sleep together, and then all this work will be for naught because my boundaries there are firm. I have two kids to think of - I don't want to rip this family apart if we can get through this without it.

-Lastly, my wife has very few to no friends outside our marriage (one of her issues), and so always wants to talk to me about OM and her problem. I always do lovingly and understandingly. Should I not?

HELP!

Sorry to hear your situation, but just so you know your not alone. I'm in the same predicament. My wife has been having a EA with her online friend for over 3 years and denies how it effects her attitude towards me and she's actually met him (last met 2 weeks ago). She thinks I don't know about it.

Sadly, but I've been thinking if she feels that the grass is greener then get out and go for it, but you have kids to think of.

I have a thread that's just been moved to this forum, read it if you like.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1932204#Post1932204

HI Humbled, welcome to Marriage Builders. Sorry you are here.

Your wife is in an emotional affair, which is the step just before it goes physical. She is becoming more and more in love with him the longer this is allowed to go on. This is headed towards disaster if you don't stop it.


This all sounds true. The OM is an addiction.


Around 6 months after D-Day or earlier if her abuse is wearing you down.


You stop being clingy and insecure. It is repulsive. Plan A means 2 things:

1. opening up a can of serious WHOOPASS on the affair, that means exposing the affair to everyone and even confronting the OM. It means doing everything in your power to KILL the affair.

2. offering to be willing to allow her to EARN your forgiveness in the future if she ends her affair. Offering to meet her needs in the future if she ends her affair


By not exposing it, you are almost ensuring the affair goes further. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so by keeping this secret, you become an ENABLER. Dr Harley calls men who do this "enablers." You are harming the OM's wife by keeping this dirty secret from her. She can't very well protect herself and her children if you won't tell her. Nor can she stop her husband if she doesn't know about the affair.

Many of us have saved our marriages and are in happy marriages today because we exposed. The ones who don't expose are much more likely to end up divorced. Here is what Dr Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders says about exposure:

entire article here

Here is a radio clip of a caller who is your future. He didn't expose, just like you, and now his wife is LEAVING him for the OM. [THAT IS WHERE YOU ARE HEADED] Dr Harley tells a caller it is very difficult to end an affair when you are an enabler. He tells him to EXPOSE the affair here

Exposure is the most potent weapon you have to save your marriage. If you don't expose, you don't have much hope of saving your marriage. Enabling will kill your marriage.


By doing this you are essentially ENDORSING her adultery. That is very inappropriate and I would stop that now. You should be doing everything in your power to inject reality into her fantasy, not fueling her fantasy.

Please listen to the radio link I posted above. The man hid his wife's affair just like you are doing and now his wife is LEAVING him for the OM. That is where you are headed by keeping this a secret.

Humbled, I strongly suggest that you start fighting for your marriage if you want to save this. Its time to MAN UP, my friend!

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A


The carrot of Plan A

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.


The stick of Plan A

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A

I have never seen "threats" to expose do anything other than drive the affairees further underground. It is a huge strategic mistake as you have discovered. It is like giving your battle plan to the enemy. They just take your plan and use it to help them hide better. That is exactly what happened here as you can see.

And something else probably happened too. I betcha the OMW doesn't believe you when you first contact her. Wanna know why? Since you showed your battle plan to the OMEnemy, he went to his wife and told her all about you so he would be protected if you did call: "dear, I have an old friend from high school and her husband is a jealous nut job who imagines we are having an affair just because I see her on facebook! The guy is crazy and abusive and has called other men on her facebook. I am just giving you a heads up about this nut!"

Then when you do call, it will take a lot to overcome his discrediting. So, you have made it harder to do an effective exposure by showing your hand.

Hopefully you can overcome that by producing evidence. Do you have evidence?

Thank you both for replying and thank you MelodyLane! I was hoping one of the more senior members would help. I am such a mess right now - like many others, I have devoted my life to my wife and children and I love them so damn much.

I listened to the radio clip, but I am confused by it because the Dr. says on there that exposure should be part of Plan B(?) I am so open to everyone's advice, but I am still concerned about exposure at this point for several reasons:

1. As I said, there are some protections against a PA in place already (distance, etc.) Also, the OM had tried to come to our state twice during the height of the affair in April and my wife had refused/asked him for two more years before she would leave me and kids. I have seen proof of this. I do think she has massive internal blocks in place against going full PA.
2. However, she has mentioned separating and dating others several times during this. She says it is because of our past problems, but I know damn well it is just so she can turn this into a PA and then not feel guilty about it when she wants to come back back because we were "separated". She has even hinted at this herself.
3. The OM and OMW do not have any children, have only been together 5 years and married 2. I really think OMW might just leave him if she finds out, in which case that will not help me at all but will instead just make him more available to my wife.
4. I admit, my wife and I have made a pact, which is actually a secret between us. I promised not to expose her affair and she promised not to expose my emotional abuse/mistreatment. As I have said before, I own my problem completely and have taken full responsibility for it, but I also am so ashamed. I feel like if it all comes out in the open, no matter how mild it was or how hard I am trying or how good of a husband and father I am, everyone will side with her and tell her to leave me. I don't know why I feel this way, probably because I am insecure.
5. We have moved to a new state 5 years ago and left all our family and connections behind. My wife and I are pretty isolated (not me trying to isolate her - joint decision to move based on a job, housing, etc.) The problem is my wife doesn't have a lot of people in her life to influence her positively. Her brother is the only one I can think of (good man and friend, Christian, advocates marriage and family). Her mother was a serial adulterer when her dad was alive, her older sister is in a loveless marriage and would probably think the affair is exciting, and her younger sister lives life as a hippy and doesn't make much of marriage vows, etc. We don't attend church and my wife has made no efforts to make any real friends since moving here. So where is my support? That's half the problem - this OM is basically my wife's BF besides me.

I'm not trying to avoid exposure, I'm just wanting to make sure you have all the facts and I am nervous about making a mistake. She told me again just last night she knows she needs to let OM go and she is trying. She says she almost deleted him the other day and she knows she cannot last like this. She has also admitted in moments of love and lucidity that all her threats of separating and leaving are just that - threats, and that she has no intention of actually leaving me. Because of all this, do I give her more time to handle this herself before I make such a massive LU withdrawal as exposing? I really don't want to push her to move out, because as I said, that will make the affair go full PA, I just know it. Right now her conscience regarding her marriage and his marriage are holding her back because she knows she is not separated and that he is choosing his wife. I really worry that exposure will potentially remove both those blocks.

Oh, also - yes, I have a LOT of irrefutable evidence of the online affair, including printouts and even soft copies of all their messages, in their original format, where you can see clearly that it is not doctored in any way.

The problem with the tactic you are using is that even if this doesn't escalate to the level of a PA or your WW leaving you RIGHT NOW, the door is left WIDE OPEN for that to happen at any time. Any time.

And if you think negotiating with your WW keeps you safe, you are sadly mistaken.

Because affairs have the same effect as an addiction on the brain, waywards often do & say the same thing. We call this "the script" and we can better predict what your WW is going to do than you can...

One of the things in the script is that waywards will do or say ANYTHING to get you to allow contact to resume. So what does this mean? All the things she said to you to get you to back off and allow this online affair to continue? You can't believe any of it.

Some things that you need to absorb...and FAST:

~ This isn't your wife. She is the same as a crack addict still taking hits off the pipe.

~ She isn't going to give the crack pipe (OM) up without exposure. Even if she did, it would be temporary, like hours.

~ Every contact they have endangers your M. It doesn't matter if it isn't a PA. Have you read the Basic Concepts? Do you understand the Love Bank? Every time they have contact, OM is making LB$ deposits and your WW becomes more entrenched in the fantasy and falls more in love with OM.

~ Having OM in the picture makes it impossible for your W to fall back in love with you. Impossible. Falling back in love is one of the key parts of the MB plan to help affair-proof you M into the future.

I hope you will listen to Melody and let her help you develop a plan to bust up this A. She knows what she is talking about. The path you are on now is like watching a train wreck about to happen.

Yes, I've read through it all and I get it. I guess I just wanted to believe in my wife. She overcame bulemia and suicidal depression as a teeneager on her own without help - just found her own inner strength and a way to work through it, and I wanted to believe her when she said she could do this on her own too. I know how much she loves our kids and even though everything you say is true I do see her trying to get out of this for that reason. I also know she feels tremendous guilt about OM marriage as well. I guess I just really want to believe her.

I have to be honest, I'm really unsure about the exposure at this point. But I am listening and I know I am not thinking clearly, so I will try and gather the strength to do what you all say. Please help. Please read my comments above about our lack of a support system. What do I do?

Humbled, exposure should be done immediately so you don't have to go to Plan B, which is a separation. [I believe it was Mrs Harley who said that about Plan B and she misspoke] Dr Harley asked the man why he had not exposed yet and the man was in Plan A. You are more likely to separate if you don't expose, just as the caller on the radio show. That is where you are headed if you don't expose.

There are no protections whatsoever against the affair, your wife is in a full blown affair NOW. An emotional affair is just as powerful as a PA. The fact that it hasn't gone physical YET only means it WILL the longer this goes on.

Be keeping your wife's affair a secret you are enabling it. The longer it goes on the more entrenched it becomes.

Humbled, do you love your wife enough to help her now? Because she is helpless against this addiction. If you love her, you will stand up for her and do what is necessary to help her get over her addiction.

Enabling is not an act of love. If she were a heroin addict would you consider it an act of love to do nothing while she shoots up and destroys herself because you "wanted to believe her when she said she could do this on her own too?"

That would be reckless and irresponsible. That would be the act of a fair weather friend who only tells you what you want to hear instead of waht you need to hear.

If she did get over her addiction on her own, she will remember that you did not lift a finger to help her or your marriage. She will remember that instead of fighting for your marriage, you ENABLED HER TO DESTROY YOUR MARRIAGE AND YOUR FAMILY. What kind of a husband does that?

There is huge difference between enabling and loving, my friend. Your wife needs you to show your love by fighting for your marriage instead of enabling her affair.

Okay, OKAY! I get it, and I know in my heart you'r right. Thanks for the tough love here. I'm not making excuses - it's just that I used to be such a jerk. Being aggressive or assertive was not a problem for me in the past - I acted pretty much like Ari Gold on Entourage. The old me would have packed her bags for her and tossed her out. I am trying to be more loving now, that's the problem. Once I went into therapy I worked hard to lose my attitude and be more sensitive and nice. And it worked. Now I feel like I don't always know how to be assertive even when I should, because I'm so busy trying to not run over other peoples' feelings, especially my wife's.

Okay, so today we are going away with the kids for the weekend to a friends. There will be NC with OM (she'll be w/me every minute and will have no internet access), but I won't be able to reply here either. While I am gone, please help. I've read the literature, and read through Plan A again, but I feel like I need more feedback. I will try to expose when I return (early next week) but I really want a gameplan - I want to do this right this time.

1. How do I expose to OMW? What do I say? How in-depth do I go?
2. Who in our limited sphere do I expose to? (please see earlier post)
3. Do I expose to my family as well? They are dysfunctional, don't hold much weight with my WW, and would just hold a grudge.
4. Do I expose to OM family or let OMW do it? They are all on his FB page - it would be easy to do. His parents have been married for like 27 years and his sister is OMW's BF, so I'm guessing they would disapprove.
5. How do I respond to my WW when she inevitably goes ballistic on me? I know she will and she will say "See, I knew you hadn't changed, you're trying to control me and manipulate me." I really screwed myself by agreeing to letting her talk this out with him, because now she's going to throw it in my face that I agreed to this.

Lastly, please help me with the "Stick" on Plan A. I seem to be doing really well with the Carrot (she can't find much to complain about with me - she even said the other day she has no real reason to leave anymore). How do I respond when she wants to talk endlessly with me about OM? How do I meet her ENs without looking like a fool in love with her when she's less interested?

Now you're talking sense! I would be happy to give you a plan. A strategic plan is the best way to expose.


The best way will be to call her, give her all the facts about the affair and arrange to get her all the evidence. Give her your name, phone # and email address. When you call, disguise your # with *67 so the OM won't intercept the call.



Expose to her parents, your parents, close family and friends.


Yes, you need their support. If they hold a grudge it will be because your wife mistreated you. She is a big girl and she can mend that relationship.

YOU DO IT yourself.



She will also threaten to divorce you, accuse you of "pushing" me and OM together, blah, blah,blah,... we have heard it all.

She will be spitting the most hiliarious, inane comments at you. It is critical that you do not BURST OUT LAUGHING. If you feel a laugh coming on, excuse yourself and go into another room. it will be hard!!

Just tell her "I am sorry you are so upset, dear! I will do what it takes to save my marriage." Don't try to reason with her, don't laugh and don't fight with her. It will blow over in a few days!


You DEMAND that she end all contact with the OM, so there will be nothing to talk about. And if she still tries, tell her it is inappropriate and hurtful and to please stop. You don't want to ever hear his name again.

Humble, meeting emotional needs NEVER means you tolerate abusive behavior. You have made a huge mistake by allowing her to talk to you about the OM becaues it is a HUGE LOVEBUSTER. Not only that but your sacrifice has given her false expectations of entitlement and only served to FUEL her fantasy.

Instead of bursting her fantasy affair, you FUELED IT. I hope you can see that now.

I understand. You have gone to the opposite extreme. Now its time to come back to the sane center.

You are really giving your wife the impression that you don't care because haven't fought for your marriage.

A couple more points about exposure.

1. do it all on the same day. It needs to be a tsunami effect that comes so fast and furious that the affairees don't have a chance to pre-empt you and spin the story

2. When you call family members I would suggest telling them about the affair and that you are trying to save your marriage. Ask for their advice <-----real important because this seems to motivate them to help you. Ask them to speak to her and use their persuasion to influence her to end her affair.

If someone says "ok I will keep this a secret" tell them nonoono!!! Affairs thrive on secrecy so please don't keep quiet about this.

3. If that exposure target does not call your wife, then you need to tell her yourself. She should know to whom you exposed.

Here is a template letter you can use for the facebook exposure. I would send the email as a private message and space them out 1 minute apart so you don't get shut down.

Dear friends and family of JoeScumbag,

It grieves me to write this letter but I believe all of his family should be aware that Joe is having an affair with my wife, Sally Sue. We have been married for 5 years and have __ children. They have been having this affair since October according to the evidence. The affair has been conducted over the internet and Joe has asked to come visit my wife on several occasions. They talk every day for hours.

I would be happy to provide the evidence to anyone who asks if you email me at humble@xyc.com.

Please use your influence with Joe to persuade him to leave my wife alone.

Thank you, BW <---sign your full name with your city and phone #.

Okay, early in the morning here. We got back from our weekend last night. The weekend away went really well - WW could tell something was on my mind and that I was getting more confident and less clingy, and it made her act much more loving and affectionate towards me. She liked how I looked and was very cuddly and loving towards me the whole time.

We went to bed last night and I couldn't hold it in anymore, so I started with the stick part of Plan A. She could tell something was on my mind so I told her I regretted saying it was okay for her to continue her online affair and that I had made a mistake in doing so. I told her it was never too late to do the right thing and I said "This A needs to end." I explained how I felt it was hurting us and our family, including her, and I stuck to my guns. She went through several tactics/emotions, from anger to indignance to hate, to reassuring me. But I stuck with it. She went back and forth between saying she was leaving me and saying she will be stuck with me but hates me anyway, will never be in love with me, and will leave when the kids are grown.

After talking for an hour, she finally said "Fine" and took her pillow and blanket and slept in the guest bed. She said how much she hates me. She then told me "If he goes, you go!" My reply to everything was pretty much, "I'm sorry you feel that way. I love you and our family and I want to work on this. If you change your mind I'll do whatever I can to make you happy." She also said "F both of you then - men are all scum!" Then she deleted everything I had ever written to her on Facebook in the last 3 months and said "There! Suffocation eliminated!" The whole incident hurts a lot, but I have to admit, the last line would have made me laugh if the whole situation weren't so scary.

She said she will needs 2-3 weeks to end this. She has built a web of lies and wants to end it with her dignity (i.e., wants him to think she is not crazy). Oddly enough, through the entire incident, she still insists that she will never, ever sleep with him, even if we were divorced. She is too angry at him for what he did to her. I do believe her on that count. In any case, she said she will stay in the guest room, and will finish this and go through the withdrawal, and when that is over she will "deal with our problems". This is really hard for me. I have to admit I did talk with her a bit and asked her why she hated me so much, and tried to "talk her down" a bit. She blamed our whole marriage and 17 years of emotional abuse.

Also, I am not trying to avoid exposure, but I may need a week or two to plan it - if this was her reaction at me gently demanding the affair stop, then I can't imagine what she will do once exposure hits. So I need time - I want to empty the bank accounts and open new ones and see a lawyer. I also need to make backup copies of my evidence.

So, help with next steps? What do I do now?

Good job! The next step will be to expose the affair PRONTO! I would also move any large amounts of money to a safe place. Make copies of the evidence and move it out of the house. That should take about one day.

Her reaction was intended to SCARE you off from further interference. You can't let her manipulate you into backing down. Go forth and expose the affair in a strategic, methodical way ASAP.


Exposure can be planned in 2 hours, H. Her anticipated fury is no reason to delay. She was angry because you have interfered in her affair; THAT IS AN EXPECTATION. Your marriage can survive her temporary anger over exposure; it can't survive an ongoing affair. Remember, the goal here is to save your marriage, not to avoid her anger at all costs.

These are all lies. She has no intention of ending it. She said this to get you off her back. "Tapering" is an excuse to continue the affair. There is nothing "dignifed" about an affair that threatens 2 marriages, don't enable her to imagine there is any dignity in her destructive, sleazy behavior. That is not helpful to her and especially not your marriage.

Allowing her to continue in her fantasy is detrimental to saving your marriage. The more reality you can inject into her sleazy affair, the more likely she is to wake up,k which will allow you to save your marriage.

And her pledge that she will "never sleep with him" is meaningless. It is as meaningless as a falling down drunk swearing to never drink again.

Sleeping in the guest room and throwing around the divorce word was intended to a) punish you for interfering in her affair and b) scare you into submission

It is your job to interfere with her affair! You cannot let her rants and raves defer you from your mission.

Humble, you cannot stop now. If you want to save this marriage you have to go all the way and do it now. You can't "give her time to end it;" that is an excuse to prolong the affair and get you off her back.

It is handing the car keys to a drunk and letting her drive. If you want to save this marriage, you had better stand up for your marriage and take back the keys.

Relying on an addict to break her addiction - that's a recipe for failure. BTW - don't let your WW con you into falling in line with her thinking that it's not an A if she doesn't sleep with the OM.



If course you can imagine what she'll be like? Have you been reading the other stories about exposure here?



Well, for one, you can stop letting your WW set the timetable for her A.

Okay, all, I will try to move more quickly. As far as the tactics I am using, I thought during Plan A I was to be avoiding LBs by not making demands but negotiating the end of the A?

Also, she sid that this is all evidence that I have not changed and am still being controlling and manipulative. Is this all script?

Also, I've been reading up on some other sites on different types of affairs. This may have been an exit affair, but it failed because he failed to "rescue" her from her terrible marriage. If so, am I just hastening D? I would really like to avoid a D at all costs short of allowing an A to continue.

Not at all. That is not Plan A at all. You wouldn't negotiate with a falling down drunk, would you? Well it is the exact same thing with someone who is high on the addiction of an affair. There is no negotiate, you DEMAND:

From the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."


Yes, I said the same thing when I was falling down drunk and my husband tried to take the car keys away from me. It is all script. An addict will say anything to prevent you from interfering with her high. You have to recognize this for what it is if you are going to win.

Stop listening to her fog and focus instead on doing the right thing for your marriage.

She will be grateful that you stood up for your marriage once she wakes up from her fog.

I predict your wife's affair will end the DAY you expose it to his wife and everyone else. This man is not going to risk his marriage over some cheap fun. 95% of the time the affair crumbles.

I noticed she deleted your FB messages and said you were suffocating her. Ignore this, it is scripted. The same with you being controlling and manipulative. If you have really changed you will know it. You should know when a DJ comes out of your mouth for manipulation sakes, and when you are standing your ground against an affair. It is all talk to scare you and manipulated you to her advantage. She is acting on raw emotion with no logical plan or process. You should have a plan and a process.

Continue to show her that you love her, but you are unwilling to be married to a person who is having an affair. It looks like you have a good grasp of the plan A, better than I did.

You can not negotiate (POJA) an affair.

Reading your thread it really looked like Recovery was going well for you until OM made contact. This caused a false recovery. Notice this is exactly why NC must be made, even looking up pics of OM on FB, or reading old love letters from OM. I will never trust my wife enough to contact OM ever in our lifetimes, and she knows and understands this.

Kudos on the plan and enact exposure. Yes, she will use your abusive ways against you. My wife said I emotionally abused her, but my true actions, how I handle myself behind closed doors and in public, trumped anything she said. (yes I was very bad at DJ and it affected her alot)

Every last vowel and consonant. She is conducting herself in true wayward fashion. Good for you for not laughing at the suffocation line she handed you!

Now. Get to work. Expose this A immediately. This is not the time for wishy-washy action. Don't work on it for a few weeks. Do it today.

Expect her to unleash a torrent of addict-addled verbiage on you. (Remember Regan in "The Exorcist"? Something akin to that.) This is a powerful drug you are yanking from her cold-turkey. Stay calm. Don't panic. And don't pay much attention to her words. She'll be starting withdrawal.

My FWH couldn't end his A on his own, Humbled. Because he was addicted to the 'hits' of the OW. You know what ended it? The day he was exposed. Read that again. THE DAY he was exposed.

Yes, you are hastening a divorce by enabling the affair. Like Dr Harley said:

LISTEN HERE

The longer you enable this affair by keeping it a secret, the more entrenched it becomes. It doesn't matter if we call it an "exit" affair or an "entrance" affair, or a "baloney sandwich;" an affair is an affair is an affair, and KEEPING THEM SECRET ONLY SERVES TO ENABLE THEM.

Do you see any alternative? I don't. And I don't think it really matters what type of A it is, does it?

I know I've changed with all my heart. It wasn't a reaction to losing her - it came before I even knew there was a threat to our marriage. It came because I had a mirror put in my face and didn't like what I saw. I wanted to be a better husband even if she would have never left.

I also know she knows this, because it is why she came clean the first time. Except for these outbursts of hers, she acknowledges the amazing changes I am making.

Thanks for all the support everyone. It's hard to recover from my past problems while going through this hell. You are all helping me gain confidence that I am not wrong for standing up here.

She's going to leave when I expose her,isn't she? I just need to emotionally prepare myself for that. In 17 years, she has never left me.

She's already gone. The wife you know and love is GONE. In her place is a selfish, abusive wayward.

You expose and you have a chance of getting your wife back.

But, bud, she is already gone.

She will threaten to leave. She may walk out the door. In her heart she will have a hard time really seperating herself from you. What she does may be unpredictable, but the results of the affair are the same. It ends.

Yes, she may leave. If she stays in the A she will more certainly leave. There is no option here, Humbled. But be aware of one thing that is in your favor if she does leave: YOU play a big role in this fog she is in. You have financed this A and have condoned it, and that has allowed it to grow. Your absence in that role is going to throw some cold water on her fantasy. The reality of eviction and financial stress doesn't jibe well in fantasy-land. And OM isn't going to find a broke and needy OW very attractive.

You haven't exposed this to OMW yet, correct? You must take care of this asap. OM isn't going to enjoy a fantasy that includes a broke, needy OW and a BW staring in shock at him, holding the phone in her hand and saying "OWH just called me. What is going on?"

I am puzzled that you don't comprehend that your greatest threat comes from continuing to ENABLE this affair. Are you not afraid of divorce? Because that is where you are headed.

Did you listen to the caller on the radio clip I posted? He enabled his wife's affair for 2 years and never exposed. Because of that, HIS WIFE WAS LEAVING HIM FOR THE OM.

That is your future.

On the other hand, WS' rarely leave when they are exposed. Sure, they make threats and rant and rave, and some even file for divorce. But it all blows over pretty quickly.

Also, she will quickly find out that if she leaves, the courts will view it as abandonment if it goes to court. And I would tell her she can't remove the kids from your home without a court order.

If she brings up any legal action I would make sure she understands you will not make it easy for her. Tell her if she doesn't end her affair, you will sue on grounds of adultery and have the OM hauled into court to give testimony of the affair under oath. Tell her that you will sue for possession of the house and primary custody of the kids.

That will shock her AWAKE real quick. Most WS have a fantasy of getting divorced and replacing the BS with the OM. Your lack of cooperation will inject a much needed dose of reality.

You have a history of going back on your word when it comes to demanding she end contact. The worst thing you could do is show her again you don't mean what you say.

Keep being calm and confident whilst your WW works on her end to get you to back down. Make no mistake, she is strategizing and thinking of how she can keep this going. I bet she approaches you with something soon.

You have been getting great advice, and I agree that OM is going to drop her for good once you expose. I would waste no time in getting the exposure lined up. I actually think it is a great time now that she is already upset.

Remember: DO NOT panic if she starts packing up her stuff, etc. My sister's H stormed out of the house when she exposed...only to return about 20 mins later. When your W is raging, don't argue with her. Take your kids out for ice cream, etc.

Susie's sister is in a recovered marriage today because she killed the affair. Her WH made every threat in the book and was extremely abusive and cruel after she exposed. They are recovering nicely today!

Okay, I'm gathering my strength/evidence for exposure today and I'll be drafting two letters and posting them here to get feedback: one for OM family and one for WW family.

Question: my WW is a SAHM - that's a whole other story. One of the things that hurts the most in this whole mess is that I have shown her my love by giving her the dream she has asked me for since day one - nice house in the suburbs, 2 kids, SAHM, cushy life. I did that by letting go of some of my dreams and starting a career for the money even though I didn't like it. I sit at work stressed and burned out every day and I get through the day by looking at photos of my wife and kids and our house and the life I am providing for them. And in return she spends all day writing sex messages to some POS because "she was bored and lonely". I can't describe how it feels to know that.

Anyway, I am a little nervous about exposing during the week because she is a SAHM and could take the kids and take off. I was considering waiting until the weekend (first thing) so I'd be there and if she wanted to take off she could go alone and leave the kids. I don't trust her in this state. Thoughts?

How old are your kids?
If they are old enough to call you, you might instruct them to always call you before getting in the car with Mom.

And, put a GPS on your wife's vehicle.
Today.

They're 5 and 2, so that won't work. I'll check into the GPS.

Also, I pay all the bills (sole breadwinner) and have access over the phones and PC/internet. Should I be blocking his #s and blocking Facebook, etc., and/or turning off the internet service? Or is that being controlling?

Let me know how this is for a letter to the OM's family:


Dear friends and family of (POSOM),

If you are receiving this letter it is because you are someone important in (POSOM)�s life. I am writing to let you know that (POSOM) has been having an online affair with my wife, (WW). The affair has been going on since February of this year. I know this may not be something you want to believe about him, but I have substantial proof if anyone requires it. I have not included the proof in this communication because some of the communications and pictures are very graphic and explicit and I do not want to cause undue embarrassment to (POSOM) or my wife (WW), but if anyone requires it you can email me at (email address).

The purpose of this letter is not to ruin (POSOM)�s reputation, but rather, to let you know that he has lost his way and is contributing to the destruction of his own marriage to (OMW) and to my marriage and family (my wife and I have two small children). Please use whatever influence you have in (POSOM)�s life to convince him to do the right thing and stop this illicit affair. There are two marriages and two small childrens' stable home at stake here.

Sincerely,
(BH)
City
Phone

Yes, you should be very "controlling." [otherwise known as boundaries] All avenues of contact should be eliminated. For example, if she talks to him over the internet, I would either cancel the internet or take the router to work with you every day.

But FIRST, see if she will end contact and agree to send him a no contact letter [we have the template] and cancel her facebook account. She should never be on facebook again.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html




[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

That looks great, but I can pretty much guarantee that there is no way in hell she will write or sign that. I am not dealing with a very willing WW here. She has remorse, but it is buried deep and it is not directed at me (she feels bad for our childrena nd OMW, but not me who is the cause of all our problems and the Enemy...

Humbled, just go ahead with the exposure and then when the dust settles, you can tell her what it will take to EARN your forgiveness and keep you interested in staying married to her. We will help you with next steps.

Please let me know what you think of this for our friends and family (especially WW's):


Dear friends and family,

If you are receiving this letter it is because you are someone important to me, my wife, and my children. Thank you for always being there for my family over the years. I wanted to start by saying that I know I have not always been a perfect husband to (WW). I have always loved her with all my heart and given 100% of what I had to give, but I see now that I had some personal issues to deal with that hurt her and our marriage, and for those I am truly sorry. I have been in therapy every week for the last 4+ months and am doing very well in addressing my issues so that I can be the best husband and father I can be.

I am writing to let you know that our family is in crisis. As you know, we are pretty isolated out here in (city, state), and we really need your love and support now. (WW) has been having an online affair with (OM), an old friend from high school who is a married man. The affair has been going on since February of this year, and I just found out in May (a month into my therapy). I have substantial proof that I have not included in this communication because some of the evidence is very graphic and explicit and I'd rather not share it, but if anyone requires it in order to see that I am not exaggerating this affair you can email me at (email address).

The purpose of this letter is not to make (WW) look bad or ask for sympathy for me, but rather, to let you know that our family is in trouble and we need your help. I am doing everything in my power to address my faults and make (WW) happy and I welcome your criticism and feedback. As for (WW), her affair is contributing to the destruction of both our marriage and family and (OM)�s marriage. I love my wife and children very much and am committed to doing whatever I can to save our family. Please help � we are in over our heads and can�t do this alone.

Love,
(BH)
Please call me if you need to talk (phone)

Humbled, you are very good at this! A couple of minor changes. I would take out the part about your personal issues and your therapy. That is not relevant to the situation and only muddies the waters. I would also ASK FOR THEIR ADVICE. That tends to motivate them to help you.

Great minds think alike!!

Just tuck it away in your file for future use. If you expose this properly she'll sign it. Reality can really take the wind out of an obstinate wayward's sails.

Thanks everyone for the advice. Things are changing rapidly now. The best advice I have been given is to stand my ground - it is working wonders already. From doormat to leader of my marriage - the change is happening rapidly.

maritalbliss - you were dead on about her trying to make an offer. I got home today and she wouldn't speak to me. Unlike last night, I didn't even care. I just smiled and acted nice but not overly concerned that she was mad. She then decided we needed to run errands and lamely asked if we could go as a family so long as I didn't talk with her. We ended up shopping and eating out. She started talking to me and opened up, and sure enough - she tried to nicely suggest that the door was still open "Did you think some more about what you said last night about me having to end it? Are you sure you want to go down that road? It might not turn out well for you." Then she made some nice gentle comments about it backfiring and making us not work, blah, blah, blah. I just stood my ground gently but firmly and showed her I didn't care if she divorced me, left me, or hated me for years - she needed to end this affair and quickly. In fact, I mentioned to her that if she was just going to divorce me anyway, then why the hell should I put up with an affair to boot? She had no good answer for that and just looked stunned. (YES!)

Apparently she realized that last night's theatrics didn't work on me anymore, so after a bit of frustrated debate from her (one-sided - I wasn't interested), she gets a sulky look on her face and pouts and says, "I guess I'll have to be a grown up and do the right thing and let him go in a week or two." To which I responded, "Pretty much, yeah." and said not another word.

I know we want it ended TODAY but it's progress. She then walked around a little dejected but I didn't respond. When that didn't work she got somewhat normal and started making more normal small talk to me again, at which point I was all smiles and friendliness. Next thing I know she is continuing to talk about our future - our plans for a new house in three years, etc.

I can feel it - the power is shifting and I LIKE IT! She is starting to drop the BS more and more every time I call her bluff and don't respond to her threats.

Thank you all! Now I am still planning my exposure - don't judge me for the timing. I already blew it the first time around and I am going as fast as I reasonably can. I feel much more in control. I have really excellent intel in place and can monitor their evey word through any reasonable channel (internet, phone, mail, etc.) She is already starting to do what she said she would - her messages to him today were certainly not as fun or frisky as usual - I think the affair is getting less fun by the minute. I know you'll disagree, but I am giving her exactly 2 weeks as stated and not a day more. If she does this on her own as she is promising - great! That just means a better commitment from her for recovery. If not - I am watching her like a hawk and she doesn't even know it. I don't trust her yet by a longshot and if she slips up, tries a FR, breaks NC, or anything else - BAM! I will drop the hammer on this affair like an H-bomb! All you all had to do is tell me to declare war on this affair. War I understand!

I haven't felt this in control of my life since this whole mess started. Thank you all! Keep the advice coming...

I also wanted to say - part of the power shift today was because I realized something for the first time. SHE DOESN'T WANT TO LEAVE ME. I don't think I realized that before. If she did, there would be no threats, no bluffs. You only bluff when you're afraid the other guy's hand is better than yours and you don't want him to know he's got you beat. I realized today that all her bluffs and threats are simply because she knows if I make a strong stand SHE WILL END IT rather than leave me and she is trying to scare me out of it.

Like I said, I feel like I woke up today!

Hi there,

So, you are saying that you will expose only when your WW breaks NC? Even if there is no signed NC letter?

If yes, then this is the worst mistake you can make. You are setting yourself up for deliberate False Recovery.

Plus, the OMW DESERVES TO KNOW. Just imagine how it is to be her in this horrible place. And there is only one person who can and hopefully will save her - YOU. Neither his WH or your WW will give her the full truth - never happens.

I am speaking from my own personal experience here. I did not expose initially. My wife promised to end the affair. The outcome was false recovery that lasted 9 months and ended only when I exposed to OMW.

Please please expose right now. If you do not believe me (I'm rather new here) then please believe at least MelodyLane. I guess she has seen thousands of stories like yours here that always develop identically.

Have you read this?

Humbled, you're missing a big point here. First of all, of COURSE she doesn't want to leave you! You're meeting many of her ENs. (Not the least being you're underwriting her A by giving her a roof over her head and financial support.) She's not stupid. Going to live in a bus shelter to further her A wouldn't be romantic at all,now would it? No, she's got it good right now. All of her needs are being met - by two men.

Two weeks to end the A is totally unacceptable. She's going to use that time to manipulate you into giving her two weeks, then two weeks more...and why not - she's been able to manipulate you before, right? Waywards are notoriously devious, Humbled.

I'm glad you're starting to take the reins back. But you've got to grab this two week thing and end it. As another poster said - you're in for some false recoveries if you waffle like this.

Finally, as a FBW, I can't tell you the disservice you're doing to the poor woman OM is married to. My heart is crushed, imagining her going along in her life, thinking everything's great - and perfect strangers have a horrible knowledge that they refuse to share with her. I was that BW at one point. One of the worst things about that whole mess? I found out from OWH that he and his wife used to argue about me in the evenings, after she'd been with my husband, about how I had the right to know about them. Can you imagine that? Perfect strangers talking about something so devastating in my life, while I was keeping dinner warm and waiting for my poor, hard-working H to get home from "working late"?

that's BETTER!

I would have said it should have happened yesterday.

Im looking for the reverse babble thread. Ill post it if I find it. Reverse babble really helps you control the conversation in a plan A manner by reversing all the babble she spews at you right back at her, but not in a mean vindictive way. you practically agree with her and repeat her fog to her. A very good tactic, but i need the thread to prove my point.

I found Orchids revers Fog Babble Thread.
Orchids reverse Babble Thread

this give good examples of how to handle your plan A conversation.

I don't think you understand the purpose of exposure, Humble, nor do you understand the mindset of a wayward. Of course we disagree because that is a BAD decision. You are still enabling the affair. You are HELPING your wife be a bad woman. You are the "friend" who gives the heroin addict his heroin in order to avoid conflict.

Part of the purpose of exposure is to end the affair, but the main purpose is to lift the fog. Keeping it a secret only serves to enable to FOG, which in turn, fuels the fantasy aspect of the affair. Exposing the affair ruins the fantasy and helps the WS see herself in a realistic perspective.


By keeping it a secret for her [enabling] you ensure that no light is ever shone on the fantasy which only serves to fuel the affair in her mind. That will make it much harder for her stay away in the future.

Secondly, the pledge of an addict is to "quit in 2 weeks" is nothing but a way to prolong the addiction and get you off her back. The word of an addict is meaningless.

All that has happened here is that she has successfully manipulated you. That is the wrong message to send to a WS.

You are harming your marriage by NOT exposing the affair, Humble. You are still enabling the affair.

Okay everyone, listen up. I am not a stupid man. I have an MA in Psych and although I understand the system here and am impressed with it, it is not a cookie cutter. It is just a system and there are situations that it may not fit neatly onto.

1. I told you I have rock solid intel and I do. I have snooped and I have seen the goodbye letter WW is already drafting to OM. She recognizes that this affair is going nowhere and she wants it to end. She recognizes that her being in love with a MM is ridiculous and unhealthy and she knows that he will never leave his wife and if he does it will not result in a long-term relationship. Has she committed 100% back to our marriage? No. But I simply don't think that's possible right now until she goes through withdrawal.

2. We really did have problems before this happened. What part of "I emotionally abused her" do you not understand? Do you understand that yes, she is revising our marital history and making it worse than it was, but it is not all revision. If I send out this letter calling out her flaws to our family and friends and do not address my own I will not be showing integrity and the message will not hit home for her. It will just make her think I have not changed, which ruins Plan A. I need to show integrity by owning my past behavior - not by calling out her faults to the world and glossing over what I did! That is why I included my own faults in the letter. Also, she needs to feel like this life is inviting to come back to. Do you understand how humiliating it makes her feel to come back to me if everyone knows she was both emotionally abused and cheated on me? But we can't reveal one without the other. We are in a difficult situation here. That is why we both recognized for our marriage to work we really don't want to share either problem with the world. Many marriages have secret difficulties they have gotten through and have only shared with each other.

3. I have no intention of waffling anymore, so stop. I was a train wreck before, but I am getting better by the day. I am giving her the two weeks she asked for and no more. As of that day, I expect her goodbye letter to go out and all contact to be cut off. I am taking extreme measures to ensure NC and I have all the intel in place I need to know if it is being adhered to or not. There will be no pictures, old messages, re-reading old love letters, etc. this time. She WANTS to get over this man - that is not only from what she tells me, it is in her journal in her private thoughts. She knows she has to let go of this. I know this is not the ideal NC letter, but the first goal is to disrupt the affair, right? The remorse, commitment, etc. can come after withdrawal. I am doing what the site suggests - my first goal is to use every means at my disposal to attack and end the affair while at the same time not doing irreversible damage to our relationship. If she breaks NC or he does I will fully expose and will stop funding the affair (cut off internet, etc.)

4. Poeple do not like to be forced or coerced into things, especially if they feel like their husband has coerced them for 17 years. It is much better when they feel like they have done something on their own, their own way. My individual counselor agrees with this and so do I. Part of why she let go of her morals and did this was to throw off my controlling behavior and be selfish - to do what she wanted and flip me the bird. Your tactics work in a "normal" relationship, but in mine I really need to be careful not to clamp down on her so hard and be so controlling. I really believe it will lead to a better recovery if I let her feel like she is choosing this and I am helping her, rather than her feeling like she is being forced. She wants to end the affair, but she wants to do it in her own way. The tactic I am taking right now makes her speed it up, which she is furious about, but it still lets her end it the way she was going to anyway - on her own terms. She ALREADY HAS HER REASONS TO END THE AFFAIR - IT WAS DYING A NATURAL DEATH ANYWAY AND SHE CLEARLY SEES THAT.

Sorry, but me re-learning how to stand up for myself to my wife means re-learning how to stand up for myself to everyone too. I have given you all the impression that I am a fool. I am not. The situation is complicated and I am not afraid to stand up to her anymore, I just recognize the complications and am adjusting the program as I need to.

Hi, I am not a frequent poster here but read EVERY day. I am a former BS/WW so I see both sides of the fence. I won't make this post about me, but I do want to ask a question and a few statements.

I have read and kept up with your post. I understand that you are trying your best to allow your wife to end the affair on her own and without making a mess of what may be left of your marriage.

Even if she ends the affair on her own, it dies a natural death, or you even give her a deadline and she ends the affair... the exposure is to ensure that it does not pick back up in a few weeks, months, or even years. The OMW could be one of your biggest assests in ensuring that this does not happen. If she does not know, then she can't help you by putting pressure on the OM.

As said many times, affairs thrive on secrecy. Once they are brought out in the open most die immediate deaths. So, the exposure is the most powerful tool a BS has to give your marriage a chance to survive.

Does that make sense at all?

One other thing, I and most other WW/WH will tell you that if something nuclear had not happened such as exposure of the affair, it would be much easier to let the dust settle, let things get back to normal, and then ease back into life as we had it. FALSE RECOVERY is not fun!

Normally if something doesn't happen...MAJOR.......it will blow over as no big deal.

What I saw wasn't that she feels the "power shifting". Waywards don't think like that. They are only concerned about their next hit off the crackpipe. She is changing her game and adapting to yours. Obviously, she figured it out since she got two more weeks of contact.

Allowing more contact just allows the affair partners to get more entrenched in the affair....more fantasy...more fog...

Part of the process of withdrawal and recommiting to the M for your WW is letting go of the fantasy. By continually reinforcing this idea of hers that she can have her M but also have her fantasy world with OM, she is going to be even more reluctant to give it up.

Remember the part earlier when I told you that we can predict better than you can what your WW will do/say? Guess what's going to happen in two weeks when her time is up? She will do whatever she can to get you to give her some more time. If that doesn't work, she will break NC. When you catch her, she will cry and beg & plead for another chance, say things to make you feel guilty...and guess what? Another prediction. You will not want to expose then either.

You need to look at the big picture. The message you want to give her is...This A endangers our M and our family and I won't tolerate it for one more minute.

This plan of yours won't work. It's not a question of IF she will break NC but WHEN. Why?? Because you have not exposed.

I remember a poster - a betrayed husband - who actually allowed his wife to go on an 'affair breakup weekend' with the OM (in other words, a supposedly final boinkfest). Well, that poster never came back to these boards, that I know of, since that happened. Wonder why . . . .

Giving her 2 weeks to 'end it' means giving WW and OM time to figure out how to drive the affair further underground.

Expose.

What if? What if there is some way that your wife knows you are watching her and she is �drafting� this letter with all the right words as a ploy? Does that change anything? How do you know FOR SURE that this is not the case.

No one is asking you to call out her FLAWS to anyone. Asking for help to end the affair and admitting your own flaws is a preemptory (honest) strike.

How does helping her hide her sin make her a better person/wife? Of course she�ll be ashamed. What she is doing is shameful. What�s that old saying? We can choose our sin but not the consequence?

You are NOT using every means at your disposal to attack and end the affair if you�re not exposing. Of course she will be embarrassed, shamed, po�d�with good reason. Her dirty little secret will be out, OMW will finally know the truth, and it won't be as easy to snow everyone as it has been to snow only you.

You�re not understanding that this will not DAMAGE your relationship, it will STRENGTHEN it, especially once she is through withdrawal and realizes that her husband, her man, thought enough of her to fight for her.

Exposing is not YOU forcing or coercing her to end the affair, it will be the RESULT of the exposure that does that. She�ll either cave and do the right thing or become very angry and feel even more entitled to her selfishness.

I hate to tell you this, but your wife is a garden-variety wayward and she�s going to see anything you do to fight the affair as controlling. Your relationship (better read marriage) is no different from the 1000s that have come through here suffering at the hands of adultery. Her reasons for adultery, whatever they are, are purely selfish. If you were such a BAD controlling husband, why didn�t she just leave and divorce you like a decent person would do? Instead she chose to show you the ultimate disrespect by cheating on you AND allowing you to continue on supporting her in the ways a husband supports a wife.

But go ahead and do it your way.

Good luck to you.

Humbled, how many marriages have you saved?

These people aren't stupid, either. Your marriage is no different. They've seen it before. And they've helped save marriages worse off than yours.

Listen.

OH BROTHER!!

Humble I didn't even FINISH reading that post, want to know why? because you are a fogged up BS, and I HATE reading posts where the BS is so fogged up and can't even see what he needs to do to fix his marriage.

You think sending a NC letter, and waiting two more weeks to make her decision to end her relationship really going to work?

Oh yes, no doubt that it will work for about...let's say 6 months! (maybe 2 months! That's how long it lasted for me)

Then you will be back on these forums asking for help AGAIN because she either...

A.) got back in contact with the OM.

OR

B.) Found someone else to have an affair.

We are not forcing you to expose, what we are doing is telling you exactly WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF YOU DON'T EXPOSE!

You can take our advice and save your marriage...

OR

You can argue with those who's been here for 10 years helping countless marriages (including mine).

Sorry to be harsh, the reason why is because my husband never exposed my first affair, two months later I found someone else.

No matter what....YOU Will HAVE to expose, rather SOONER then later to save from all the heart ache you will get.

By the way, a lot of us have come here thinking our situation is unique and different and so we can cherry pick the program. So that line of thought is not new, either. And it won't work.

All of this just translates to = I am afraid to expose.

We see it again and again and again. The affair doesn't end without exposure. Good luck to you!

And the marriage won't recover with out an exposure...

This is so, so true. It took me a while to get this. Learn from my mistake. I only partially exposed because I did it before I found MB, but even the partial exposure helped to end the EA. A better job would have prevented numerous false recoveries.

Follow the advice - expose now. 2 weeks is utterly ridiculous.

Yes, and Dr Harley has a PhD in psychology and a long successful track record of saving marriages. Your best thinking screwed up your marriage, on the other hand.

So when you cite credentials, lets look at your track record versus Dr Harley's, shall we? You are essentially the fat person who says they know more about weight loss than the person who has successfully lost weight. Is that rational?

And no, it is not cookie cutter, [whatever that means] but you can't possibly defend your enabling of this affair. It has not worked and we can all see the results with our own eyes. We can defend exposure and point to the hundreds of marriages that have been saved using these tactics.

Anyway, we have given your our best advice. You can take it or leave it. You are the one who has to live with the result, not us. We have saved our marriages.

I wish you the best.

Moving on...........

Last time I checked affairs occur in over 60% of marriages. There are what, 50 million+ marriages in the US? So that's like, 30 million marriages with affairs. And last time I checked, the vast majority of affairs do NOT end in divorce.

So tell me, have you saved 15 million+ marriages here? No? How many then, thousands? Then I am guessing there must be other ways to save a marriage from an affair too, or else the only salvaged marriages out there would be former MB plan workers. That does not mean I don't find value here and appreciate the advice, because I do, and I'm not too proud to admit that I need it. But I have been watching these forums for some time, and I have seen many people follow the plan and expose, etc., and am watching many of their marriages fall apart and their spouses leave. So the plan is not foolproof.

Note: my WW has no idea I am watching. She thinks she has me under her thumb, as do you. You are all sadly mistaken. Last time they broke NC they did it in the same venue (FB) as before. I have never revealed any evidence to her so she does not even know there is a source.

Observation: you don't know me. I did waffle before and learned from it. I was weak from the tremendous guilt I felt following my realization of my past bad behavior in therapy. At that time I would have done anything to make it up to her, even something unhealthy (like this). I understand now that I have to move past my guilt and see this all for what it is.

I am not exposing now NOT because of what my WW says or what you say. I am doing it because I THINK FOR MYSELF. I need to factor in everything I know about our marriage, about me, about her, etc. Why would I finally wake up and not let my WW tell me what to do and then just turn around and blindly follow everything you are telling me? I really like and appreciate all the advice I get here but I will continue to THINK FOR MYSELF and will not be bullied or have my intelligence insulted to get me to follow your advice. I will take your advice and follow it if I feel it makes sense. You shouldn't want anything more from me than that.

Prediction: you don't know me. My WW IS learning from this experience every day and I can see that in what she DOES and says in front of me and even more from what she DOES and says when she thinks I am not there watching. I will give her this two weeks. I predict she will do what she says. We will see who is right. Did I mention that she has never been the one to re-initiate contact? She has pressured me, lashed out, gotten mad at me, but she has never broken NC on her own. OM has, both times. And she has been too weak to resist when he has - I admit that. Why? Because she is still in the fog. And why? Because last time she kept all his messages, pictures, videos, journal, etc. and re-read them and re-read them and watched his FB page. From day one this time she has said she knows when she ends it it needs to be 100% and she needs to let go of all of it. This came directly from her - I never even suggested it. Also...this time I am putting extraordinary precautions in place for him to not be able to reach her. Plain and simple. She needs time to go through withdrawal and then re-connect with me. I understand she will be weak until that happens. The whole point is to break the fog. Then we will work on protecting our M in the future.

point --> Saved my marriage!!

This is where I stopped reading, does it piss of the WS when the BS exposes? YES!

Do they Leave? Most likely

BUT THE BIG OL DEAL ABOUT EXPOSING is letting the fog lift from their selfish little eyes! Letting them SEE the reality on that they are doing.

Guess what I did when wheels exposed me....

I got pissed, angry, threatened him, punched him (couple times) and cried....all at the same time!

Did I leave? OF COURSE I DID! WE ALL LEAVE, when that happens, want to know why? Because we are EMBARRASSED!!

Did the fog started to lift from my selfish eyes? Yes it did, it only took a few day's but I was still gone for 10 day's.

Do other WS leave longer? YES THEY DO! Some leave for 2 weeks, some leave for 2 months, and some leave for 2 years!! But the conclusion on ALL of that is.....

THEY ALWAYS COME BACK!!!

Because the fog lifted, and they are now seeing how stupid they acted. [size:11pt][/size]

So no matter how long it takes for that WS comes back to the marriage, in the end they always do. If they don't....then that means that BS is WAY BETTER OFF with out that person in their life!!

If she is serious about it, SHE will be the one to suggest and put EPs in place, not you.

Custer had a better plan at Little Big Horn. This plan is a huge deduct in your respect points from your WW.

They like it when you're weak and adultery enabling but they love a man they can respect and has the courage to all out fight for them.

I'll check back in two weeks.

All I have shown her for 17 years is how strong I am. She respects me and doesn't think I would let anyone walk on me, not even her. When I was getting my first tattoo a couple of months ago, I was looking for something meaningful to me and had something picked out, but I also asked her opinion. I said to define me in one word. She said "Strength" without hesitation. She even clarified and said "Inside and out. Conviction. It's who you are."

She fully expected me to kick her out - she was drawn back into me because I have changed and I am not like that anymore and I have handled this differently. The thing that drew her to this man in the first place was how "nice" she thought he was compared to how I used to be.

As I said, there are other factors at work here. Think I'm stupid if you like. I don't think you all realize that I am willing to take the longer, harder road to recovery with her if it prevents my children from having to see their mom leave. That even means I am willing to deal with a relapse or two if they occur. That is part of addiction recovery. I will deal with them from here on out with strength and not let my guilt make me a doormat. The plan you are all pushing seems to be more "I will not live with an addict at any cost, so they either "fully recover right now or they get out."

Two weeks it is - looking forward to your next post, humbled.

She is the one who did.

Put a GPS on her vehicle.
You would be smart to verify her comings and goings.

Working on that one as we speak. It's the one piece of intel I don't have right now.

No plan is fullproof - none. Sometimes, marriages fail. This is because of ADULTERY. Not because of the plan. The plan DOES work frequently, when implemented properly. I've been here a long time, too - reading new threads, reading back through past threads. It DOES work. Remarkably so. And on top of that it gives you a BETTER marriage than before. Of these numerous hypothetical 'other' marriages which 'recover' from adultery how many of them are REALLY recovered to a BETTER state than the original marriage? How many of them are just limping along with multiple adulteries and abuses? Because I've seen A LOT of healthy, happy, loving marriages here POST affair.

There are better and worse plans. You can try the one which has a documented success rate - along with advisors to tell you HOW they did it.

Or you could ignore their advice and chose your own plan. Your own 'special, unique' plan, just for you. One with no proven track record. You REALLY wanna make your life and family the guinea pigs for this plan? Really?


Often the most educated are the most stupid. And I say this as someone with a couple degrees under my belt - one of the a Masters. We think because we have all this education and knowledge we know everything.

You, with your MA in Psych, think you got this? Then why you posting here? If you want the wealth of knowledge that exists in this forum, LISTEN to it. You may have a degree in psyche, but the people here have REAL LIFE experience dealing with DOZENS of situations JUST LIKE YOURS. Yours isn't special, it's actually pretty cookie cutter. Your 'knowledge' is gonna keep you from really LEARNING here.


Awww, you're so cute with this cute little story.

Sure your wife respects you. She's respected you ALL along, inappropriately talking with this OM. You can see the respect just emanating from her. She's gonna respect you all the way to OMs bedsheets at the rate you're going.

Not seeing much strength here, bub.

But a lot of hemming and hawwing about your 'specialness' and 'unique situation'

To be honest, I think the MB concepts make a lot of sense for rebuilding a marriage and understanding why affairs happen. But I am not convinced they always make sense for "busting up" an affair. I will continue to read them and use them. You say I can't cherry pick. Okay. I will anyway.

I'm enough of a man to admit when I'm wrong. If I end up being wrong then I do, and I will humbly admit it and try a different approach. Until then I'll see you all in a few weeks. I'm not going to sit here and be berated for trusting myself.

As long as we are clear ... the end result of cherry picking will be all yours.

However, whatever you cherry pick, do not make the error of "trusting" your wife at this point.
Hence my HAMMERING you about the GPS.

Awww, you're so cute with this cute little story.

Sure your wife respects you. She's respected you ALL along, inappropriately talking with this OM. You can see the respect just emanating from her. She's gonna respect you all the way to OMs bedsheets at the rate you're going.

Not seeing much strength here, bub.

But a lot of hemming and hawwing about your 'specialness' and 'unique situation'[/quote]

Thanks for the support.

I don't know how else I can say this. I was an a-hole before. Do you not understand? This is not coming from my WW warping my brain - this is my own realization through my own private therapy. It is not special or unique - her comments were right on target. I was a typical emotionally abusive jerk. You are dead right - my WW did not and still doesn't fully respect me. But it has nothing to do with being firm or strong - it has to do with the fact that I was a complete a-hole. Do you get that? She doesn't respect me because she thinks I was a jerk who always put what I wanted before everyone else. Who always made everything a fight and had to "win" every fight. Making this a battle of wills between her and I is NOT the answer for my marriage. Yes, it would end the affair while we are married, but it would leave me with no marriage and destroy and credibility I had built with my wife regarding my recovery.

I just have to trust myself on this.

Good luck.

Thank you. I understand completely. And BELIEVE me, I do not trust her for a second. I am monitoring her to see if and when I CAN trust her again - that is the point.

Just curious.
Did you also trust your judgment when you were being an A-hole?

This thread made me very sad.

God's Blessings,

Say

Uh-huh. And I'm in Mensa. Did that help me notice my FWH's actions during his A? Nope! And what would my first course of action have been had I noticed and not known about MB? I would have groveled, threatened, probably would have gone into H's workplace and made a spectacle of myself and been thrown out, probably would have thrown him out of the house and been divorced by now - because he couldn't end the affair! To this day he thanks God that he was exposed, you know that, Humbled? He's glad he was exposed because he couldn't break the addiction on his own! Remember: Intelligence and emotions are often not compatible in the least.

We are not calling you stupid. We are not berating you. We are letting you know, from having been where you are, what will work more likely than not. Have you not seen a common theme, here? The majority of posters have told you that they recovered their Ms after doing certain things. The main thing we've advised you to do is to expose the A. Do you know why there aren't an equal number of posters advising you to wait two weeks? Because the posters who went another route didn't recover their marriages, and are likely not even on these boards any longer.

You make a mistake in taking our advice as a personal insult. Look at it more like tough love.

Wait the two weeks if you must. But could you come back and let us know how everything went? We'd like to have that for future posters who come here looking for help.

See you in two weeks then....

Then 2 months......

Then in 2 more years.....

Good LUCK!

I HAVE MY HAND UP HERE AS A BS WHOSE MARRIAGE IS IN SHAMBLES AT THE MOMENT.

Why is my marriage in shambles? Well, can tell you why it is and it is simple, IT IS BECAUSE OF MY HUSBAND'S AFFAIR.

My marriage is a wreck not because I implemented an excellent plan A and a super DARK Plan B, it is because my husband decided he would go off and have his need for sex met outside of our marriage. He is rutting around in the filth and disgust of affairland. Where would I be if I hadn't found MB? I would be going CRAZY. I would be an emotional wreck. I would probably eventually get divorced because I couldn't handle anymore of the affairland drama. Am I going to become divorced anyways? It is possible. BUT, I would be much better off either way. I am already better off emotionally and there is still a chance that my marriage will recover.

Your wife's affair is absolutely cookie cutter. That is why DrH's advice helps so many marriages because wayturds all follow the same script.

Exposure should be done now. You need to tell OMW. You need it to be done when you are calm so it is most effective.

I exposed my WH's affair and there was no nuclear exposure. It was more like a starter pistol. I do NOT regret it at all. Why? because now WH and OW can't go around and tell people about the "love story" that happened. EVERYONE KNOWS THE TRUTH. That gives me great solace. I am able to move on without regrets because I know I did my part.

If you have ever read my thread, you will see that people tell me that I am a good example of what to do on MB ad with the concepts. I don't ever feel like I deserve the praise because I am just following what is written by DrH and what other posters have suggested. I follow the concepts. Even if my marriage doesn't survive, it won't be a failure for MB or DrH. I WILL BE BETTER.

We want you to save your marriage. We have nothing to lose or gain from you saving your marriage except the knowledge that we made the world a little bit better. We helped someone make their life a bit better. Either way, we will have done good. I have gone to sleep many nights praying for the people on these boards, none of which I know IRL. I think of them often and hope that they can get through one more day. That is how I am paying it forward.

Please listen to these people. Listening to your own instincts got you where you are today.

We are listening to you that you were horrible to your wife. You were possibly the worst husband ever. What have you learned so you can change that? Even if this marriage doesn't recover, you wouldn't want to repeat your same mistakes over and over again. Do you personally know anyone who has survived an affair, IRL? Ask them what they did to save their marriage. Because you obviously aren't listening to the people on here who have not only survived their WS's affairs, or their own, but who have helped countless of others survive and THRIVE.

Please, when you do this your own way, don't blame MB or DrH. You won't have anyone to blame except yourself. Take care.

I'll take this one bite at a time:

Thank you. I see what you are doing here, and I sincerely appreciate it. You are making me defend myself and realize this isn't my fault. And you are right. I was not horrible to my wife. I was not the worst husband ever - I was actually a really good husband. I was just depressed and crabby and it made me yell at her sometimes when I shouldn't have. I was an a-hole sometimes but I was a milion good things too. I really was and still am. And I have learned a lot - my negative traits have pretty much disappeared since I began therapy as well as reading this site. I don't ever do DJs or AOs or anything like that anymore.

I would never blame MB or DrH if I didn't follow it fully - that is not the type of person I am. I take responsibility for my decisions.

One of the things that was wrong with our marriage before was that she never wanted to grow up or be responsible - she never wanted to deal with anything. So she found me - and I was more than happy to "take care" of her. She used to love me for that. After 17 years it became "control" and she felt like she had no freedom to do whatever she wanted for her. And I felt like she never dealt with our problems in our marriage - like I didn't have a partner I could depend on when I was down. I am exhausted and tired of being the only "grown-up" in my house.

I can't explain it. I feel like she recognizes the mess she has gotten us into and is finally trying to fix something herself and not have me come in and tell her "how" to do it or fix it. She is asking me for trust at a time when she deserves none, but I really do believe she is sincere in that she wants to "beat" this herself. She doesn't want me to save her.

Lastly, I haven't mentioned this yet, and I know no one will care, but I see all their messages. One of the only reasons I have let this continue is because their whole mechanic has changed. He is messing this up more every day - it is dying a natural death. He disappoints and pisses her off daily and is starting to commit LBs. She is getting more and more upset with him daily. Why would I want to interfere with that? Meanwhile, I am meeting her ENs and committing no LBs. I really have thought about this quite a bit. Last time (FR) they ended on a high note and he was Prince Charming. This time it is getting easier for her every day that I let them continue to talk to let go of him, because she is seeing more and more of his truth. That is why I don't understand when everyone keeps telling me the affair is becoming more entrenched the longer I let it go on. It seems to be dying.

The only reason people are telling you that the affair is getting more entrenched is because it IS. They have seen it before and unfortunately will see it again and again.

Let me try a different approach now. You have read DrH's materials right? You have most likely read tonnes of posts on other threads here right? Having all of this knowledge, what would YOU tell someone who came here with your story? Using only the knowledge from THIS site, what would you advise?

Thank you, Scotland, for trying to reason with me. I would have directed them to the cocnepts and words that caught my eye:

Here is what I was working from. From "Coping with Infidelity: Part 3 Restoring the Marital Relationship":

"Since an affair does not always end the way it should, with complete separation from the lover, you may not find this column entirely relevant to you. In your case, your spouse's lover may still be a factor, and you will want to know how to restore your marital relationship with your spouse's lover standing in the wings. If you are in that position, I have addressed that topic in two of my earlier Q&A columns on infidelity ("What to Do with an Unfaithful Husband" and "What to Do with an Unfaithful Wife")."

From "What to Do with an Unfaithful Wife":

"The reason she is having trouble deciding between you and her lover is that you both meet different emotional needs. She says she still loves you and that may be the case, particularly since she still makes love to you twice a week. She loves you because you are meeting some of her important needs. Since she says she would leave you both if she had to decide between you, there's a good chance that neither of you meet enough of her needs for her to settle on one of you. But if you could do for her what this other man is doing, the conflict would be ended and your family would be secure. You would have learned to meet all of her most important emotional needs, ending her affair, and the risk of others."

"After you have established what her lover does for her that you don't do, ask her to give you a chance to prove to her that you can do it, too. Give yourself about six months where you go all out to try your best to meet her needs. And be sure you do not wreck it all by being thoughtless or disrespectful. If she is willing, take her with you on short vacations to places she would enjoy. Integrate her into your life, without making her feel that you are trying to smother her and take control. Never make any demands of her time, just offer her opportunities to become a part of you, and express your willingness to become a part of her.

She probably wants a soul-mate -- someone who she feels emotionally connected to. Somehow, over the past few years, she has lost her connection with you. Your six month effort should be designed to help her re-connect to you.

Don't tell her that your plan is only for six months, because that would constitute a threat. Besides, you cannot be sure how long you will last. But at the end of six months, evaluate your progress. If your relationship is improving, you may be encouraged enough to give your effort another six months. Remember that her state of mind will improve if you are depositing love units and not withdrawing them. She may become less defensive and less secretive about her lifestyle. She may also tell you that she has completely abandoned her lover, and is giving you a solid chance to work things out."

This is so like my situation. And I have been following it for 3 months and it has slowly been working. We are literally all the way up to the last sentence, and now she is promising to do that and has given me a timeline. Go ahead, hit me with the "it's all script, etc." I really felt like it was working.

May: "I am leaving you for him."
June: "I don't know what to do, I'm confused and I feel like I'm going to end up in love with two men."
July: "I understand why people do this. I wish there were a way I could have both in my life. I love you."
August: "I'm letting him go and I'm staying with you. Please just let me end this my own way - I need closure. I'm not going anywhere - you and I are going to be together for life. I love you."

Go ahead, hit me

The reason you interfere with the natural dying process is that you want to eliminate her desire to ever get into another affair. You need to change her mindset completely. If you let this die a natural death, the lesson she learns is that affairs are fun until she gets tired of them. What's to stop her from looking up other old boyfriends or meeting people at the gym or at work or anywhere.

By doing a nuclear exposure, you shatter her world. She will experience massive amount of pain which will prevent her from ever getting in another affair. She gets to experience all the embarassment and shame from her friends and family. She gets to experience rejection from her peers. She feels the full force of the negative aspects of her affair. That's what will end the affair and prevent her from ever starting one up again.

Have you read all of DrH's articles and advice on EXPOSURE? There is a lot of info on it out there and I find it interesting that you continue to cherry pick what you seem fits your sitch. your sitch is the same as a lot of other ones. Have you read a lot of other people's threads and see that this isn't something that is suggested every once in a while? Do you see how it suggested to each and every poster over and over again. I haven't found ONE, NOT ONE poster who exposed, and after the WS got over the initial anger, said that they regretted it. There are countless who have talked about how they didn't expose, exposed too late or trickle exposed and how they regretted THAT.

What are you afraid will happen if you expose? What is the worst thing that will happen? If you are afraid that your WW will leave you then she still has the power in this marriage. Do you see this? Do you see how she is still driving this bus. She is the one driving this marriage into the ground.

If you really feel like DrH would suggest that your sitch is different and that he would suggest no exposure, why not call the coaching center and asking them for their professional advice?

This is exactly right. He doesn't understand that this is more than just ending the affair. Sure, the affair may end, but unless he stops enabling her fantasy, he will be facing other affairs because her mindset will never change.



The fantasy mindset is your biggest enemy, Humble. Letting this die a "natural death" does nothing to lift the fog and facilitate recovery. Ending the affair is NOT recovery, it is just the start.

My fear for you is that your enabling has created false expectations of entitlement that will not serve you well in the future. As someone who a) is a former wayward and b) who is in a happy, recovered marriage, I have to point out that your instincts are not serving you well. Everyone here wants the best for you, but there is nothing we can do if you don't follow the advice.

Exposure also prevents the A from reigniting in the future which is half the battle in "ending" it.

Just because OM is lovebustering doesn't mean that your WW has lost the feelings of being "in love" with him. That will linger for a VERY long time.

Dr H has said before he has seen the affair end, the couple recover their marriage, the WS say they don't ever want to compromise the M again, and ends up leaving the BS for the OP five years after the affair ended because it was reignited.

You are underestimating the power of the A. Even if it died a natural death, even if you expose and she ends it, you need to be watching on both ends and EPs need to be put in place. OMW plays a HUGE role here, watching on her end and repairing her M.

You are going to have to be looking over your shoulder carefully for years the way that you are doing this...not only for reigniting this A but for the start of a new one.

Humble, in all the quotes you posted, Dr Harley NEVER says to allow the affair to die a natural death. Dr Harley is a strong advocate of exposure:




radio segment

Question.....do you EVER plan to expose? Like, after the two weeks is up and lets say....she does end it.....do you plan to expose then?

You mentioned as part of your reasoning that you wanted to try and do this without your kids being hurt......even though this is BAD....your kids are already hurt. They will continue to be hurt and your wife needs to see that. For many WW's that is the ONE thing that finally GRABS them....is knowing that they have hurt their children and having to face it.

If your plan is to NEVER expose I see a life of misery for you. You say that you will deal with false recoveries, or setbacks. WHY would you be okay with that if you might could prevent it with EXPOSURE.

Granted, I am no expert but I promise these people here have been there and done that.

When you say that you will pick and choose what you want to use from this website it is like picking parts of a weight loss program like....I will eat less but im not going to excercise YA KNOW???? The program works because its a WHOLE program.

Good luck to you!

IMO, you are observing two lovers squabbling. It's a part of the A dynamic that actually adds spice to the relationship - the push-me pull-you. You've heard the old joke about how make-up sex is the best sex, right? The same idea applies to affairees and their squabbles. They trade barbs, then agonize over whether the OP really meant it, etc. It's pretty immature, but there you go.

But I hope I'm wrong and you're right.

Hey, Humbled - maybe you should read Iamdown2010's thread. It's very similar to yours. And, in a similar fashion, he has refused to listen to any of the poster's advice. Five months into the long distance EA, and it's now PA. His WW has stated that she's confused, that she should be put in a mental institution, and that he flew to town while he was travelling and they engaged in a lot of sex. See how the addiction plays with a wayward's mind? Oh, and he's allegedly bi-sexual. So there's that nasty possibility of AIDS on top of all the other STDs. He just can't seem to wrap his mind around the MB concepts.

I think it's must reading for you.

I can understand why you'd think that but I didn't explain fully. She is watching everything he does and she is testing him. She has been listening to me, my counselors, and the few people in our life who know and who have told her he's a typical MM and is just trying to get in her pants. So she is testing him. And she is noticing when she writes him a sexy message he writes her back. And when she doesn't, he doesn't. It seems to be breaking the illusion and is really making her not like him. And I feel like if he is just continuing to self-destruct, why shouldn't I let it happen a little more? It's just going to make it easier for her to come out of the fog. I could be wrong, but it seems to be helping...meanwhile, I am the wondeful husband on Plan A who is meeting her ENs and paying attention to her both when sex is on the table and when it is not.

What did that take, 2 days? I owe you all a massive apology. I'm sorry and I WAS WRONG.

Today started great. WW slept in guest room for second night last night (supposedly still mad) and woke up depressed. I aksed if she needed a hug, she asked me if I did. We hugged. She immediately perked up and got happy. OM only wrote WW once today (LB for her), and she spent most of day looking at OMW FB page and my page (usually a sign that she is considering ending it). I got home and she hugged and kissed me and told me she might need "my body" tonight (playfully), and then admitted she almost came back to our bed the night before because she already missed me. Said sleeping in the guest room was working already and making her miss me more. We watched TV together and had sex. Everything was great.

Then she made a comment about talking to OM on FB until February of next year (apparently she decided this is how long she needs). When I seemed surprised and said I thought it was for 1-2 more weeks, it got ugly and turned into a discussion that just ended (it's 2:30am). Now she is fully talking D, and says she will pursue affair with him if she is D'd, etc. She said again that if he goes, I go. She said smugly that she gets him either way, so she has all the power (meaning if she stays or goes). Then she nicely mentioned that if she stays with me while she talks to him it improves our chances. She also intimated that she is not sure if she could actually physically cheat on me or not (she has always sworn she couldn't).

I feel so stupid. You were all right. I will full expose. She will go ballistic. I admit it, I am scared and weak. I really don't want to do this or go through it. I know you are all right and it is the right thing to do in the long run, but I am already so emotionally drained from working the Carrot of Plan A for 3 months and living in this alone that I just want the comfort of her and I back. I wish I had not said anything tonight so I could've enjoyed one last night - she probably would have cuddled with me. I miss my DW so much (not my WW). My DW shows up sometimes and when she does I realize how very much I miss her. It makes me want to fall apart and do stupid things just to see her once in awhile. I know it's pathetic so please no tough love on this part - I'm just venting feelings. Sometimes its tempting to just keep my mouth shut just to have all those good moments with her.

I will full expose now. We'll see how that interferes with her "I get him either way" attitude. All of a sudden now even getting a D won't get her her fix if OMW and family are watching him like a hawk. On the other hand, she really might D me anyway. She sounded really adamant that she is going to do it either way.

I am SO scared to do this and deal with the massive conflict, fallout, and upheaval it will cause in my and my children's lives. I don't want her to go. I love her.

Do not be scared. You are doing the right thing. Your children will thank you in future, it is the best thing that their father could do in that kind of situation.

Your WW will be furious, of course. But you are prepared. Actually, you already know exactly what she's gonna say.

Do not warn WW or OM. Do not hesitate. Expose now.

Be strong and angry.

I know the place where you are right now but let me courage you - the days after exposure were actually the first days when I felt normal person after many months.

All a ruse.



Now you know why she was acting that way. Your DW likely never showed up.

Good luck with your exposure plans.

Humbled, I am very sorry you are in this place. I truly am.


There really is a difference between the two, huh? You have a good chance of getting your wife back if you are strong and courageous. If you stand up for yourself, your family, and the woman your wife once was.

Realize that your wife is in an addiction. There really is no other parallel that describes her right now. She is addicted to the rush of emotions she gets from the OM. You need to help her JUST the same as if she were addicted to drugs or alcohol, because the end result is going to be the same: this addiction will destroy her family, her marriage, and in the end her own soul.

You need the help and support of all those that love you both. You need to approach this with just that mindset. Let them know that your wife is in an affair, that she and your marriage need their help. You, and those that love your wife and support your marriage must intervene and give her a good dose of reality to shock her out of this affair. Let your wife know that you are willing and able to become the husband she needs, let her know that you will not tolerate her addiction. That is what Plan A IS. It isn't vengeful, it isn't dirty laundry, it is helping your wife to see the dangerous situation she is in, and offering her the promise of a better life.

Because Exposure is so hurtful to your wife, because it will make her so angry, do it QUICK, and WIDE. Expose to ALL your targets in one day. Include members of OMs family: his parents, spouse, friends along with your important family members and friends. Anyone with influence over the two. Get a list together to make it easy to do all at once.

You get 1 chance to do this right, so do it right. Everyone, at one time.

When the spitfire arrives, realize she is the crack addict who's pipe just got taken away. Lovingly let her know that "I will do what it takes to save my marriage." and "This marriage cannot withstand a third person." Do not speak about it any more than that. You don't have to explain yourself further.

Be a broken record.

You are standing for your family.

You CAN do this!

Also - and you're probably gonna balk at this, but trust me - if you have children, exposure MUST include them. They MUST be the ones told and YOU must be the one to do it. Trying to include your wife here will only provide her an opportunity to LIE to your children.

Mel has about a gazillion quotes on WHY this is the right thing to do. Trust me, EVERY BS argues this point but if you're going to Expose, your children must know.

Thank you. I'm sorry I was in stubborn denial before. I don't want to be here. I can't believe this happened to us. We have always been "BH & WW", you know? Even during the affair, she said we always would be. God, I miss her so much already. I can't stop crying or shaking. I just want my wife back. I want the mother of my children back, for me and them. Please help me find the strength - I'm trying, I really am.

I have never been afraid of much in my life. The only thing I've ever been afraid of is losing my DW or kids. Literally, nothing else. I always feared if it happened, it would be to a car wreck or something. But never like this. It hurts so much I don't know how to process this pain. She was my soulmate. And now she not only says she isn't anymore, she says she never was. I don't understand how anyone can live through this. I gave her everything I had to give and more. She made me feel a level of love I had never felt before in my life.

I will fully expose ASAP because what else do I have to lose. I give up. I have no place else to turn. You are all right. My plan obviously wasn't working. I hope it's not too late to do it correctly. I'm sorry I was defensive.

I need to open a new bank account and transfer funds.
I need to make copies of evidence without giving away my intel.
I need to make a list on all sides and fully expose.
What else?

Do I block her internet and cellphone yet or let her and the OM talk during the fallout from the full exposure before I do so? In other words, do I let them end on a high note or let the reality hit them while they're in contact?

My kids are 5 and 2. What do I say?

Humbled, the threats will get worse when you expose. But you can't let that scare you, friend. They are meaningless. Liken it to taking the crack pipe away from a crack head. He goes crazy with rage, but when he sobers up and experiences sobriety, he is grateful you did that for him.


Conflict avoidance causes more conflict. This short term conflict is the most likely thing to lead to the salvation of your marriage and your children's family. Avoiding conflict now will lead to the breakup of your family when your wife leaves you for the OM or her next OM.

Humbled, when you expose, please start with the OM's wife and go down your list. That might be the bullet that kills this affair.

When you are finished and all hell breaks loose with your wife, I would tell her that you love her and will do what it takes to save your marriage. Because of that, you must insist she end her affair TODAY.

We will be here for you, Humbled. Be strong and move forward!

I think I'll tell her I'm working today but take the day off work and go to Starbucks to work on this (free wi-fi). I need to make my lists and open a new account. Then I'll start exposing. Do I need to contact a lawyer yet?

I really need your support today. I'm not strong enough to do this alone. I love her so much and it makes me so weak for her, and the damn WW she is now knows it. Luckily she is weak for me too - I guess I should be glad for that. I'll be on here all day - I really need some encouragement. My wife is my whole world. We can talk about how unhealthy that is later

Humbled, the 2 year old won't understand, but it is very likely that the 5 yr old will be very confused by the tension in the home. If she is given false explanations for that tension she may think she is the cause and when she eventually finds out the truth, will learn that dishonesty is acceptable.

Your wife may have already told your 5 yr old things about the OM which are very confusing to her. Waywards typically introduce their child - in some manner - to the OP or the idea of the OP in order to normalize their affair.

This happened to me when I was 4. My father was a loud and proud cheater and he introduced me to an OW when I was 4. This did not seem right to me. My instincts were telling me this was wrong, but since no adult validated that feeling, I concluded I was a stupid girl. I learned early on that my instincts about right and wrong were WRONG and grew up profoundly morally confused.

This would have turned out differently if my mother had told me the truth and given me moral guidance. But she didn't because she was enamored with the notion of "non-judgmentalism." Her lack of teaching left me vulnerable to the immoral guidance of my father. And that is what you can expect from your wife right now. As long as you don't tell your 5 old the truth, he is vulnerable to your wife's lies.

here

I am so sorry you have arrived at this point. Honestly, being both a BS/WW I feel that you must get to this point before you start to repair/recover. I for one cannot imagine telling my H the things your wife has said to you. But, at the same time, my H would have NEVER been that tolerant of me continuing the A after he found out.

As for telling your children, that is really tough. They are so young. But trust me when I tell you (I work with kids every day that have behavior problems, etc....) they already know in their heart that something isn't right. Mom is sleeping in the other room....that is not normal. If it were me, I would sit down with them and just say, your mom has done something wrong. She has hurt me and you by having a boyfriend while she is married. When you get married, you are only supposed to be with that person and your mom has not done that. Gosh, that sounds wordy but because they are so young....its hard to really explain. Maybe others will have better suggestions.

I agree with exposing to OMW FIRST. Although you want to continue exposing....this may be the only one needed to end it completely. Exposure again is to kill the A but also so that the WW is held accountable for her actions. When the A is going on, WW's/WH's become so self absorbed they can't see that their actions not only hurt themselves, their spouse, and their kids, but it hurts others close to them horribly.

If your wife was going to D you.....she would already be gone. And if this OM was going to leave his family for her.....he would already be gone. Don't let what she is threatening to do stop you from what you know is the right thing to do.

Smart move! The only reason to call a lawyer is to find out your rights, but I really don't think this will end in legal action.


We will be here for you! And I do not think you are unhealthy at all!! That is the sign of a great marriage, Humbled.

You were strong enough to endure her affair all this time, I know you will be strong enough to take the steps to save your marriage.

The key is to not allow FEAR to drive your mission. Put aside the fear and just stick to the plan.

I would suggest not answering your phone when the fallout begins and she starts calling, ok?

You will do just fine..

What if she takes off with the kids while I am out?

Thank you, everyone. I know I am strong, and my love for her and my children is strong. It hasn't been easy putting the Giver in charge the last three months. I have been doing it for all of them. But man, this is so big. I will do it. I can do it. I'm just scared and sad and so unbelievably shaken. Thank you.

How about we focus on what IS instead of WHAT IF? You have enough on your plate to deal with without manufacturing hypotheticals.

Good. Having a solid plan is an excellent start. If you do this right you it's doubtful that you'll need a lawyer. Don't put your time into that right now.

Wait til you expose. Your WW is going to see a very strong Humbled. Not a weak one. This is YOUR WIFE and you'll be DAMNED if you're going to lie down and let some snivelling-assed, half-witted, pond-scum [censored] waltz in and talk pretty to her! Not on YOUR watch, you're not! You've committed to her, invested your life, time and heart and have children! You're not going to sit on your hands and watch this crime without moving a muscle! Not gonna happen, OM!

Need a little more inspiration? Just click play.

Don't worry, as soon as you are done go straight home, the sooner you get this over with the better.

I am soo sorry this is happening but we are all here for you ok?

Thanks, maritalbliss. The clip did inspire me and made me laugh. I probably look like a lunatic right now, sitting on my bed with my laptop, tears streaming down my face and laughing like a fool.

Someone else on one of the threads posted something that I liked as well and I will be using my version of it if the OM dares to contact me:

"Stay away from my wife and family or I will bring hell on earth to your doorstep. Put it in your dayplanner, POSOM. Hell is coming."

I think it would make me feel really good to say that.

Something simple.

"Mommy has a boyfriend. Married mommies and daddy's shouldn't have boyfriends."

We want you to contact him TOO. After you expose today to his wife, his parents and every one else, I would be calling this scumbag and letting him know hell is coming his way.

Dr Harley says to cause as much as possible for the OM. He should be contacted every time you have evidence of contact. OM are pansies and he won't want the conflict you bring into his life. If you call him up or visit him or call his wife every time you have evidence of contact, you will run that dog off quick enough.

This is WHY I keep saying

PUT A GPS ON HER VEHICLE

I do have other suggestions, but until you've done this ... any further "What if she takes the kids away" is just so damn irritating.

Also take her off (or open new) credit cards, HELOC, savings, IRA, investments...*anything* where she can get money to move out and/or fund her affair. We had a BH whose WW drained the HELOC to the tune of $40k or so, put down a retainer on a lawyer, and moved out.

Have multiple full backups of your evidence, offsite, in different locations. Waywards will go on a search-and-destroy mission for any evidence, thinking they're destroying the only proof. Be prepared to mail (or email) evidence to OMW.

Expose as simultaneously as possible, so everyone gets the same story at the same time from YOU. What I mean is, don't call a couple of people today...a couple of people tomorrow...send some emails Friday...and spin it out over a couple of weeks or give yourself time to be talked out of it. If you trickle expose, WW will spin the story and it will be harder for you to get traction.

Leave the means of contact open. That way you can continue snooping while they tear each other to shreds after you expose.

Oh, yeah, you need to have a little mano-a-mano with this jerk. Right after you've totally exposed him. (Make sure you start with his wife, bless her poor heart.)

This OM is a snivelling coward who isn't man enough to stand proud with his own woman. Instead, he crawls around behind network sites and gets his needs met by good women who have lost their boundaries. WHAT A FOOL! WHAT AN ABSOLUTE COWARD! There is so much more descriptive language I could use to describe him, but as we've seen, I'm getting censored. Hell, Humbled, I'm ready to pick up the phone and personally rip his face off! I'm mad FOR you! Tighten up the belt on your jeans a notch, and get ready to show this a@@hold exactly where Ground Zero is!

Thank you. This is hard for me especially. When I started counseling, I buried that part of me in an effort to be a more gentle, considerate husband. Now it sucks. I am trying to channel the old parts of me - the old me (the jerk) would have ripped him and this affair to shreds in a heartbeat, and given my WW two choices - come crawling humbly back completely remorseful and committed or hit the road with absolutely no support from me.

There's nothing wrong with being a kind, sensitive person. But now is not the time to be that person. If you and your wife were walking alone at night and a rapist accosted you with an eye on your wife, would your response be kind and sensitive? Hell, no, it wouldn't! You'd fight for both of your lives! This is like that! You're fighting for both of your lives, Humbled!

humbled, I am glad you are out of the BS fog. Phewww...

Don't have much to add to the awesome advice you have been getting, but just one thing:

DO NOT protect your WW from the fallout of exposure!
ex) if OMW wants to contact her, LET HER! Don't make excuses for her behavior.

Part of what will help your WW see the A for the disgusting thing that it is is to see people's reaction to it.

Hang in there!

Humble just checking in...hoping your exposure is going good...good luck to ya.

We will be here if you need anything

Hmmmm, his last post was over two hours ago. Hope he's okay. I thought he said he'd be around here all day.

Hi All,

I'm here and I'm working on it now. Sorry - I was weak and got caught up in a conversation with WW this morning. It was hard to listen to her and take it all as fogspeak. It was laced with hope and threats. I am trying to be strong. Just opened a new bank account and transferred the funds and I told my mom. I know I'm supposed to reveal to OMW first but I really needed some support and encouragement. She will not say a word until it is all unleashed today.

Now cleaning up evidence for transmittal and making lists. Then calling OMW. Wish me luck and please - any encouragement appreciated. I am so scared. I don't want to go home to her after this but I do want to go home to my kids. I wish she would just check herself into a mental institution where I'd know she'd be safe for a month until she could get past this. It's nervewracking.

You can do this! You really can! She will be angry - that's ok - that's a GOOD sign. It means she's still emotionally invested in your marriage. Her taking it well is evidence of emotional withdrawal from the marriage. So look at her anger as a GOOD thing.

You can withstand her anger. You got strength in you for that.

Your marriage cannot withstand her affair.

Given the two - take the anger.

You can call OMW. It will be tough, but you can do it.

No fear - you are doing the right thing. Get the plan in order and get your contact list down - then just call down the list.

YAY!! For exposing affairs and KILLING them DEAD!!!

We are sooo proud of you!!!

Humbled, you are doing GREAT. I think it was a very smart idea to tell your mother first. I understand and agree with your reasoning.

You are pushing through the fear and doing the right thing for your marriage and your children. As you continue to push through the fear and act on principle rather than confusing emotions you are going to feel stronger and more hopeful than you have since this began.

It is an exhiliarating feeling to stand up for your marriage. Another betrayed husband said that doing this changed him from a serf to a knight. He is years into a recovered marriage today.

We are here to support you all the way.

Still no calls from her. She has no idea. I have been through my mother, OMW, OM father and sister, WW sister and brother, a couple of close friends, still need to call WW other sister and mom and my family. I am so afraid right now that I've made a huge mistake! My WW is calling me now - I'm not picking up. I need some reassurance please - I'm really scared I just made an irreversible mistake!

Did you speak to OMW? What did she say???

Oh crap she's calling me like crazy - like four times in 3 minutes. I wish I hadn't done this!

Don't answer the call from your WW. Keep going through your list. Hang in there! You are fighting for you family!!

She ws really weird and reserved about it. I sent her the evidence and she said she'd look at it and do some research of her own. She was probably in shock.

Remember she is going to act like a crackhead whose pipe is being taken away. Be strong!!!!

Nope, you did not make a mistake! If her affair is so wonderful, she should have no objection about your exposure. You are just sharing the good news!

Don't answer the phone until you are finished.

When you do go home and she attacks you, just calmly smile and say "I am so sorry you are upset! i felt that I should share the good news with everyone. Can I get you something, dear?"

It will be comical, I am just warning you. BUT DO NOT LAUGH IN FRONT OF HER. If you can't control it, excuse yourself and go in the other room.


What did the OMW say?

Can you temporarily block her number? You need to stay strong through this. You yanked the bottle from the hand of an alcoholic. She's going to be spitting mad, but she'll get over it.

H, did you give her your name and phone # for followup? You are right, she is probably in shock and will have alot of followup questions. It is important for her to be able to stay in contact with you.

You are doing great! Keep up the good work!

....butting in to say you're doing great and more people than you know are praying and rooting for you and your family!

Stop!! GEt a grip on your emotions. You did the right thing. Her anger is evidence that you have inflicted a serious blow to her affair.

Keep soldiering on!!

The more angry she is, the better. It means your exposure is WORKING!

Humbled, keep your mind on the goal here. The goal is to SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE, not to avoid her anger at all cost.

Your marriage can survive her temporary anger, it cannot survive an affair.

Be calm, brave and firm. You are fighting for your marriage and your family, Sir. And doing a great job!

You're getting some excellent advice already. Exposure sucks at first, but you will see that you did the right thing. You trusted us all this morning, trust us again when we tell you that YOU ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING HERE.

Do what everyone has suggested and remain calm. Do you have a VAR? I would suggest that you pick one up in the way home and trn it on. There have been many WW's who cry DV after exposure to try to get rid of the BH. Protect yourself. She is going to be MAD. It will be okay. She will be confused by your calmness. CALM AND ASSERTIVE. Walk away if she becomes abusive and tell her that you will talk to her when she has calmed down.

You are doing the best thing for your marriage and the best thing for yourself and your family.

Remember, in this war, against the affair, your WW has OM, you have all of us. We are there right behind you.

YA!!

You are on the RIGHT track my friend....

CONGRATULATION....

You just took the FIRST step on saving your marriage. I know you are scared right now but this was the best thing you had to do to help your marriage. There is nothing wrong with standing up for your marriage and you children...nothin!

You bet she's in shock! Make sure she has your contact info. You two need to be allies in killing this A.

Don't answer your WWs calls until you're done with exposure. You're driving the bus now, Humble. Not her. YOU say when you're ready to talk. And when you DO talk, and her head is spinning around on her neck, you stay calm. Don't let her goad you into a blow-out. Stay cool and handle this with surgical precision. When she screams "Why did you do this!?" your response is "I will do whatever it takes to save my marriage." Repeat as often as necessary.

Meanwhile - high five me, Humble! Wahoo! You done good! Took you just a wee bit to get on board, but once you did...

Oh yeah. Get ready for The Script.
"I was going to end the A but you can forget it now!"
"I was going to try to work it out with you but now we're finished!"
ad nauseum, blah blah blah. Expect it so it doesn't derail your splendid work so far. You don't want your expression to change when she's starts spouting her wayward crap. Just look at her with the patient look you would give a small child who is throwing a tantrum.

Have you contacted OM?

Update: She called me at least 25+ times while it was happening. She was PISSED. She finally left me a message saying she knew I was avoiding her and she was getting calls from everyone and needed the cellphone charger (which I had). I sent a text saying I was on th way home with it.

Got home, she was sitting quietly on the bed staring into space. She was mad, said I promised I wouldn't "hurt" OM and OMW. I said I didn't, I helped them.

She asked why I didn't let her do it her own way, I said "Somebody has to stand up for this family, and I am doing it."

She asked why I didn't let her do it herself and I noted that she had broken our rules for contact before (lame, I know, but we had agreed) - no pics, no video, no cybersex. The proof was right there.

Then she said something about ruining OM's marriage and I told her he sent me a message in FB saying his marriage would be fine. She seemed surprised. Then she informed me (and her family who called) that she was done with me and wasn't listening to anyone who suggested otherwise. She started to yell. I walked away. I said I was bringing the kids to McDonald's for Happy Meals for dinner and letting them play for awhile while she made her calls. She seemed freaked out and yelled down the stairs "You aren't even going to let me ask you questions?"

I left.

Now I'm back. I see that she and OM were writing on FB. I'll write more later.

What do I do with WW now? She wants me to explain stuff.

Be very polite and explain that her affair is over. NOW. Tell her you have exposed the affair to everyone. Everyone knows, including the OM's wife. And if she wants to stay married, then the affair needs to end.

It is very disrespectful of you and the kids to carry on her affair in the home of her husband and children so it must end.

Be firm; be calm and don't try to reason with her. Don't allow her to bait you into a fight.

you are doing just great! Hang in there, it is almost over.

You sir are a WARRIOR!

You are FIGHTING for your family!!!!

YES!!!!

Your wife will get over her anger. Now go FULL FORCE Plan A. Meet all her ENs like your life depended on it - because it DOES!

Tell her this is inappropriate and her affair discussions need to be taken out of this house. Otherwise, I would suggest unhooking the internet. Maybe take the router to work with you.

You have done great! If she was done with you...she would be gone! Did he really send you a message on FB saying his marriage would be fine?

I love the statement that YOU had ruined the OM marriage LMAO!!! What questions does she have for you?

Keep us posted. YOU ARE GOING TO BE FINE!

Well, they have been talking on the cellphone quite a bit. She missed some of his calls. She is in shock - she did NOT expect me to do this.

She asked me a bunch of questions, amounting to

Why? - standing up for my family

Why did you tell EVERYONE? - I told the truth

That was my business! How could you send people my pornographic words? - if you didn't want his wife to see them, you shouldn't have been writing them.

You took away EVERYTHING! - affair killed, maybe?

You took away my boyfriend! - maybe?

His wife kicked him out! they will end up divorced! - you should be glad - you two can be together (she replied that he'll never be with her)

How could you ruin two marriages? - I didn't, the two of you did by committing adultery. I just told the truth.

Then she wrote the OMW a foggy apologetic letter begging her to take OM back because she didn't want to ruin his life. OMW said "F@#$ you."

She then informed me "Well, this didn't save your marriage! I WILL NEVER BE WITH YOU! EVER! YOU WILL NEVER SEE THIS NAKED AGAIN! I HATE YOU!"


Okay, so help me out. What do I do now? How can I meet ENs now?

Do I lock down cellphones and FB now?

How long does the rage usually last? When will she calm down?

She doesn't. She told me to file for D tomorrow. I said no, I will not. She said fine, she will call lawyer tomorrow and I will have to give her money for it.

I said I love you and this family. She said f@#$ you.

Tell her no thanks.

Tell her to take her affair conversations out of this house. It is inappropriate for her to conduct her affair in your home and that of her children. Follow her around when she is on the phone and say loudly "please take your affair converstation out of this house. It is inappropriate to carry on your affair in this house."

Nope - and thanks to your foresight with the accounts, she will have to find other means of financing her 'divorce'.

They always threaten divorce, they almost never file.

You are doing GREAT!

Your answers were spot on!

Her rage WILL blow over.

I'd say kill the phone, or block OMs number, and block Facebook. When she gets mad just stay firm - you're doing what you have to to save the marriage.

Be loving, and upbeat. Try to be affectionate if she'll let you. What are, typically, her most important ENs? We can help you put together a plan for your Plan A.

Don't worry about meeting emotional needs now. That won't happen for a long time, until she gets through withdrawal. The best you can do now is avoid lovebusters.

As long as she is in the house..she is not gone. Has she made any attempt to leave? Probably not. Where would she go if she did leave? Does she have anyone who would take her in? I would ask everyone I know to PLEASE not help her by letting her stay with them. (That is if and a BIG IF she tries to leave). Make sure that she knows that if she leaves she will be leaving without the children.

As far as filing for D, you said the right thing. Tell her that you will not file and that you will not give her the money to file. If she wants to file that she will have to file alone. Tell her that if she files that you will fight her tooth and nail and will file for full custody of the children and her paying you child support.

You must keep your emotions in check. Remain pleasant around her, make yourself attractive to her. Make home a pleasant place to be. Take your children and have fun. Invite her to come along. If she does not go, you go anyway.

Is the OM telling her they will be together or is he freaking out and scared his wife will leave?

HANG IN THERE!!!!! You are doing everything right!

I sent my sister here last year when it was discovered her H was having an A. She did a nuclear exposure. The OW told him it was over but they kept texting for a couple more days.

He ranted and raged for a couple of days, the worst came the day OW stopped talking to him. My sister stayed strong, saying similar things that you are, she left the house with their D when it got really bad. He even ripped the kitchen cabinet door off at one point and said some pretty crazy stuff. But he eventually burned out and calmed down.

I think he has since told her (they are recovering nicely now) that he kept turning up the volume hoping she would give in. He is completely embarassed at his behavior now.

Just keep doing what you are doing. Stay calm and be a broken record.

Hang in there!!

Typical WW rage.
How long will it last?
About 48 hours at this temperature.

OM will dump her.
That will make her feel worse.
You might catch some fallout anger after he dumps her.

Just go about your business.
Avoid any "fighting words".

Carry a few of the following catch phrases in your pocket:

I'm sorry you are upset.
I understand feeling angry and hurt.
Can I bring you a cup of tea?
A cookie?

Her anger will self-extinguish.
The affair needed to be killed.

Good job !

This can go into the WW hall of shame ...

'

Some day she will cringe with horror at the irony of that statement.

This one goes into the WW hall of shame too.




Uhhhhhhhh .... don't write pornography to another woman's husband, and that will end that.

Humbled, NEVER refer to OM by his given name. He is never "George" when you speak of him.
ALWAYS refer to him as "Peggy's husband". (or, whatever her name is)

From my carrot/stick thread:

Thank you all so much! Today was SO hard and frightening. But you were right - I feel better now. I really do. All of a sudden instead of suffering in silence with only my WW's carefully doled out support I am now basking in love and support from my family and friends, and even WW's family! They all told me they love me today and defended me, even to her!

I will work on the EN questionnaire for her - I feel like I know them well, but it could be a good exercise. Then I will post and would appreciate help with Plan A.

I have to share something with you. Here's my FB message exchange with OM.

OM: Thanks I appreciate what you did! Its not going to get (WW) to take you back! I love my wife and I will find a way to fix it, but yours is f@#$ed up for good. You can blame me all you want, but you need to look in the mirror about who f@#$ed your marriage up. It was messed up before me. Have a good life bud! (Why is he saying this, because my WW lied to him and told him we were separated. Not true, of course)

My reply (please note he also doesn't know that my WW has already told me OMW kicked him out and may or may not take him back): If you want your wife to take YOU back, you might want to stop contacting MY wife. I don't think (OMW) is going to take your begging seriously when she finds out you're still in contact with my wife. Stay away from my family. You are the bad guy here, not me, and you have to live with that.

That felt good. POS. I have so many more things to say, every time he tries to contact her, which I think will not last long. I think the exposure just gave him a new "hobby" to work on - salvaging his shattered life. A-hole.

Humbled,

You did awesome. I know it's a little scary right now. Ride out the storm. You know what you did was right and was done for the right reasons. Stay calm. I'm proud of you.

you can send this to POSOM:

She likely told him all manner of lies about you. A WW will typically demonize her H in order to justify her affair. He may think you are separated because she has been able to contact him so freely from your home.

It gets better. Want a WW hall of shame moment? Here it is, in my WW's letter to OMW: "I gave sex to get love (that I was missing), and he gave love to get the sex that he was missing."

OMW's response: "F@$# you! You don't know a goddamn thing about me and I f@#$ing hate every word he ever said to you. I don't know if it can be fixed & it sure as hell is not your business. Thank God your husband said something because you two liars sure as hell never would. You're only sorry you got caught & how DARE you want him to think of you while he has sex with his me. I am repulsed by you both right now."

Awesome!

No, she has not left yet, but she does have places she could go. She could stay with a family member or the closeby neighbor I told.

As for filing, she said she made an appointment with a divorce attorney tomorrow - she just filled out a questionnaire online. She has no money to pay for it, and yes, I will fight tooth and nail.

The good news? OM dumped her already. Dropped her off FB - probably from my comment. She came in bedroom and cried and said "I hope you're happy! Why couldn't you just let me let him go in my own way and then maybe you and I cold have had a chance! We're done now!"

The part that hurts the most and I don't know why? She removed me from FB as her husband and as a friend. Silly but it hurt. Then she deleted 90% of her friends and went just down to blood relatives. She mentioned potentially doing this before.

Okay, so I still have intel in place, but I think it seems that affair is DEAD. What now? Wait out withdrawal and try not to PO her / commit LBs? Stall D?

Then what? Man, she hates me right now. She changed her FB password to "f@#$(BH name)"!

Just go have yourself a cold beer and pat yourself on the back! You just killed your wife's affair, Sir!!

I admire you.

Keep the intel in place and do NOT reveal your sources.

Do not inform her about MB yet.

Yes, you should stall D as much as you can and no LB-s. But you should not avoid conflict when she tries contact OM or continue A in some ways.

I AM going to have a cold beer. She just surgically removed me from FB. I guess that is her public D of me. Surprised she didn't do that during A to justify it - after all, she knew she was going to leave, so it's not an A, right? (see, I even laughed at that)

Man, the next few days is gonna be rough. I guess the FB thing bothers me because it is a public statement that she is done with me. But I will hold out hope.

Oh yeah, and she told me to watch my back tonight because she wanted to stab me. LOL

Wow, she just came in the bedroom again and made it clear we are through forever. Thsi killed us forever. She will never, ever, be with me again. I don't know guys, I'm really starting to believe she is sincere. Help! I don't want to have made a huge mistake! Talk me down...

Why are you still afraid of her? Has she been sincere lately?

We have accurately described the dynamics of your situation, aren't we?. The anger will blow over in days, maybe weeks. You are still in Day 1. The more anger, the more deadly was the blow to kill the affair.

Do you realize that she is not angry with you because you "ruined" your marriage recovery or something like that?

She is angry because you ruined her affair! Be proud of that.

Do not let her convince you that there was still "us" that you killed. There wasn't. There was a plot to manipulate you to allow to continue her affair and for that, giving you some "hope" was necessary.

But in reality, she was already GONE.

You've really gotta try hard not to take anything she does/says seriously until she gets through withdrawal.

Going back to my sister's H, he continously (and emphatically) told her he was "done" during those couple of days I told you about when he was raging. Even after he burnt out, he kept saying he was done. Oh! and he did the same thing on FB, he defriended her and took her off as his spouse. She was really hurt by that as well.

You did exactly the right thing. One of the reasons she is acting this way, is that the feeling of power and control she had over you is gone. She can't talk her way out of this. Its done. Her fantasy world is destroyed. And don't be to worried about her talking divorce or even if she moved out. Just keep doing the plan A. You see even if she does move out. All it would be then is her living outside the home and looking in (at you and the kids) at her old life. Plan lots of fun things to do with the kids. Invite her, but don't force her to go. When you go take lots of pictures and put them on the fridge or around. Let the kids even make cards with the pictures of you all. This is a family effort. The kids can do so much without even knowing they are helping, just by loving their mom.

You have upped the ante in your marriage. The only chip she has left is to actually go PA, and the guy sounds like he is through. Divorce is not a chip. Its a fold. Do not loan her any of you power by LBs. Your responses have been perfect. Do not be baited by her.

They all say that. Stay calm, weather the storm.

She means nothing of the kind. Wayward babble. Try not to remind her of how distasteful her outbursts were when she's out of the fog and cringing in embarrassment over her behavior.

She's not going to go anywhere. Why would she? What's the point now? Because she's not going to D, either. She's just lashing out right now, using any weapon she can to hurt you like "you hurt her."

Couple of things:
Ignore anything about FB. That's just something else she did to try to hurt you.

Don't let her take the kids anywhere.

She gets NO MONEY. If she needs something from the store, offer to go with her to get it, and pay for it out of your own pocket.

Remember: YOU'RE driving the bus.

Let OMW know when there's contact. Right now she's in shock. She's just had her reality completely destroyed. However, there's a good chance that she's still loyal to her WH. He more than likely is throwing your WW under the bus and telling his W that he was led on, that WW stalked him, blah blah blah. Make sure his W knows of every contact. Ask her to do the same for you. Do NOT threaten her H to her! That will make her afraid of you and she'll avoid you! It's what caused me to avoid the OWH in my sitch. You want her to know that you're both in the same boat.

I tip my hat to you, Humbled. You're doing great!

I am trying not to laugh....because I KNOW its NOT FUNNY....but it gives me a look at MYSELF from the outside when I was going through that. I NEVER said anything like that to my H but I certainly felt that way. Your W has an incredible sense of entitlement to just think that you would LET HER have a boyfriend? LIKE SERIOUSLY????

Stay the course....remember.....you have a great plan in place. That is the one thing I like most about MB.....it gives you a step by step plan to recover your marriage. In a time where you literally can't think for yourself or make a decision....its right there for you.

Again, do not engage in conflict with her. Smile and say....I love you enough to fight the fight to keep our marriage together.

I know for a fact that for a long time she has been feeling very unworthy of your love. Many times WS will pick fights, find fault, etc....just because they know what they are doing is wrong and deep down they do not feel worthy for the BS to be nice to them.

Keep us updated and we will be here for you.

One thing....do not give ONE HECKY HOOT (my daughter says this and I LOVE IT)....about her deleting you on FB. Here is my two cents worth about FB. It started out as a way for people to communicate (Mostly young people) but has turned into DRAMA CENTRAL! I do not nor will I ever again have FB. What I find is that FOR THE MOST PART....its self absorbed people who think others really care to have a minute to minute detail of their life. I work at a school and you will not believe the amount of drama that starts from FB. She is using that as an unwritten statement to you....that she is done. HA If she were done.....she wouldn't care to put it on FB. Even if she leaves, she is NOT DONE.

After wheels exposed my affair on face book I did the following....

screamed
yelled
punched walls, doors, and even wheels!
threatening him saying..."I might have ruined the marriage but you ended it!" "You just made things worse, I was going to end it, but now IT'S OVER BETWEEN YOU AND ME!!"
Cried

ALL AT THE SAME TIME!!

Right now you wife is having a lot of resentment because what you did, the next day I decided to stay with my sister in Colorado because I hated the thought of looking at wheels, I wanted to divorce him NOW! But I knew I needed help first. If you want to read my first post on here and read it. You can.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=160243&Number=2376039#Post2376039

Just wait it out a couple more day's, she will start calming down and she will realize what she has done. If not, then you can always go to plan B.

Whatever.... click here

>buzzer<
WRONG ANSWER !

If she actually were "through forever" ... you would have heard the door slam on her way out. Her coming in to make the announcement is NOT being "through forever".



She's still there ... She's just buried under some pile of stinking-adultery-thinking.



She is EMOTIONALLY scrambled.
Think of her currently as an egg.
Break that egg, toss it in the Cuisinart ... set on twirled and whirled ... THAT is what her "thinking" process is. Scrambled.
Her current, and short span future behavior will be ~~~> EMOTIONALLY-DRIVEN.

Expect nothing short of lunacy from her.

Expect crying and sulking between the angry outbursts.

AND ... the GPS ? Installed?

Why do you need the GPS?

WW's who get "dumped" are desperate for "closure" with OM.
I mean D.E.S.P.E.R.A.T.E.

The waywards will scheme up a way to meet/talk/write in order to "end things the way they should have ended.".

Usually, the wayward version of closure involves a lot of nonsense like:

The world has kept us apart, but we would have been great together
I will always love you
I will always carry you in my heart
My heart is breaking

And, very often, if they meet up in person ... they end up doing the big nasty, as part of their "closure".

If you know where her vehicle is ... and it is not where she says she is going ... you can intervene and avert a disaster.

Also, not to mention for the tenth time she cannot take the kids away and hide them from you!

Another thing.....I am sure that the OMW is making his life a living HE** right now. TODAY, he is probably walking the straight and narrow. Tomorrow, however, he will get brave enough to try to contact her (if he was really vested in the relationship). Many times ONE of the affair partners was really not as emotinally involved as the other (usually the man) and once he is caught, will tuck his tail and run. This entails dropping the OW like a hot potatoe. This never sits well with the OW. She is already embassassed, but being tossed out like takeout sacks is more than she can bare. It will be a devastating blow to her ego and will fuel her emotions for several days.

Humbled, I'm just sitting here shaking my head. You sir did a STELLAR explosure (new word). You'll be one for the MB record books and I hope after all this is over, you stick around and guide other fearful BHs.

She is behaving and reacting exactly according to the script.

Good job!

Yep, yep, and yep. I got completely plastered the night of D-Day (2 bottles of wine, no food all day and a huge workout at the gym that afternoon while in a state of shock) and ended up falling against my dresser at about midnight, "hic" . This prompted an ambulance and a trip to the ER for stitches in my forehead, accompanied by my panicked, stricken, remorseful WH. Don't for a minute think all is well on the OM Estate. No, siree,bob.

Just got caught up - AWESOME AWESOME AWESOME.
Stay the course!!!!!

Humbled,

Here it is, in my WW's letter to OMW: "I gave sex to get love (that I was missing), and he gave love to get the sex that he was missing."

So she confessed to a PA to OMW, now OM cannot deny there was sex! Your W is doing your work for you.

Remind OMW to get STD testing.

God Bless
Gamma

No, sorry - taken out of context. No PA. They had cybersex and he basically pleased himself to thoughts, words, and pics of my WW daily. UGH...I don't want to think about it, but at least it's not the other.

And yes, everyone, before the questions start flying, I have seen everything, and I mean EVERYTHING (can't say how in case she finds this site before she's ready to understand) and there was no PA. Although I agree, it would have eventually gotten there, which is why I finally smartened up and did this.

So? Is it safe to say there is no knife in your back this morning?

So happy you lived through the night!!

Hey, give us an update, Humbled. So, did she hie herself to the attorney this morning? I'm betting no.

What's been going on? Do tell!

You people make me feel so much better. I hate this. I hate watching my WW in pain. She is still my DW to me. I know this is necessary and tough love but I hate this - and I hate that she hates me. I love her with all my heart.

When I left this morning for work WW was sitting in our walk-in closet alone and sobbing. It broke my heart. All I wanted to do was hold her and comfort her, but I can't because she hates my guts right now. This is so hard to watch.

I am blocking OM's #s on our phones today - no calls or text in or out anymore. I haven't gotten a GPS yet but I took the car with the carseats in it to work today and I will tomorrow as well - so she really can't go anywhere because she's home with the kids, unless she abandons them there alone, which I doubt she would do. And she can't really take off with them. As for FB, I can't really block it yet because it is one of the only places she is talking to her family (she won't answer the phone) and she needs their support. She has deleted all her FB friends except her 8 blood relatives.

Good news, I think: She sent him a message this morning on FB (deleted but not blocked yet, so private messages can be sent). She basically said she was sorry and hoped he could fix his marriage, but that she would have him if he couldn't. He wrote back: "I can't talk to you anymore. Goodbye."

Disappointing but not surprising that she did that. Maybe now that that option is shut down the threats will slowly subside. Happy about his reponse - sadly, it's the way I wish my WW would have ended it, but I always knew the addiction was worse for her than him. He knows there's a pissed of man guarding his family now who won't be letting him in my family's life. Like you all said - run away with your tail between your legs, coward.

She called me at work today. She has made an appointment with a divorce attorney for September 15th. It costs $100 for the consultation. I forgot to tell her I am not paying for it - crap. Should I tell her now or wait until the date approaches and then ask her how she's paying for it?

Oh, for the love of God. Here, this is for your WW, Humbled:


Sorry, I'm feeling impatient today.

She also keeps asking me questions. She asked me today if I told the OM about all her lies - I think she is trying to find a loophole in his goodbye message. Like if it's because of me doing that then she could fix it and be with him. I told her I said nothing to him about her and I.

She just called again and said she was confused about the appointment. I asked her how she was going to pay for it - she said with "our" money. I said I wasn't interested in spending our money on a divorce. She said I can't do that and got mad. Told me to get it through my head. I said I was going to fight for our marriage and family.

Then she got mad and asked me how I ever thought she could be romantically involved with me after what "I did". Got to love that one. I should be asking that to her!

Then she said, "The most I could ever do would be to live in the same house for the kids in the guest room, but that would never work."

Okay all, I know its still fogspeak, but help me decipher.

She is deep in fog/withdrawal and is goading you. She doesn't really want a D, you know that, Humbled? Trust me. If she did, she'd be beating the bushes looking for someone to help her, like her parents. She wouldn't be calling the 'enemy' (that's you right now, btw) to help her plot her exit strategy.

Somewhere in there is your DW, interfering with the demon. She'll be back.

My instinct says to not to create conflict about this because she is just saying this to punish you for ruining her affair. This will blow over I predict.

If she brings it up again, I would let her know that if she does file for divorce, you will be countersuing on grounds of adultery and will go for primary custody of the kids and possession of the house. You will have the OM subpoenaed to the stand to give testimony of the affair. The idea here is make sure she knows that you will not cooperate with any divorce schemes.

BUT...I don't predict she will ever file or even follow through on the appointment. She is just blowing smoke because you ruined her affair.

MB is exactly right, H. She doesn't want a divorce. She only wants to punish you for taking away the crack pipe.

I would also be sure and inform the OMW of every single contact. The OM might be telling her no contact today but that can quickly change. Every contact should be met with a rash of CRAP, ie: contacting the OMW and the OM. He is a coward and can be easily run off.

Imagine your wife had become hooked on methamphetamine. You tried and tried to get her to quit, and she promised and promised to quit, but still kept right on using her drug behind your back and lying about it to your face.

Finally, one day, you stop waiting for her to quit on her own because you know she's never going to do that.

So, you get into her secret stash of meth (that she didn't know you knew about) and destroy ever last bit of her meth. And you call the cops on the drug dealer so he can't sell her anymore.

Wife comes home and finds YOU destroyed her drug and YOU fixed it so she can't get any more.

How do you think she would react?

Humbled,

They had cybersex and he basically pleased himself to thoughts, words, and pics of my WW daily.

Only he pleased himself so your wife did not?, I dunno but isn't orgasm technically PA or really close? The whole cybersex thing seem alien to me.

God Bless
Gamma

My H also told OW "I can't talk to you anymore" when she called him.
That's a type of "closure" that WW's hate.
Cold.
Final.
No sweetly worded departure.

GOOD !

Make this a nice FAMILY holiday weekend.
Invite friends/family to join you.
Get picnic food.
Plan an outing.
If WW goes along ... that's fine .... if NOT that's fine too.
Take the kids to a park and have fun with or without her.. <~~~ Which is part of plan A, Humbled.

She won't see an attorney.

OM is no longer going to be the bigger obstacle.
Your WW's roller coaster has just begun.

Buckle up.
Hang on.

Humbled, you might consider letting OMW know that your WW attempted to contact him on FB.

I think it would be a good idea.

When OW called my H, and he told her he would not speak to her , my H told me about the call. Right away, I called OW .... which was very much the opposite of what OW wanted/expected.

Me calling her back took ALL the fun out of calling my H ... the WIFE calls back.

Really, one of the best things that could happen is ~~~> OMW calls your WW and reads her the riot act for the FB contact.

YOU don't need to let WW know that you know about the FB contact .... but it would really help your wife if OMW called your wife on the carpet for that contact.

Don't bring it up. Don't ask her how she's going to pay for it. Nothing. She's doing this to upset you like you upset her when you took away her drug.

Here's what you do: Pretend you never heard her say it. Let her bring it up. When/if she does, act a little surprised, like it's the first you've heard of it. Then let HER ask YOU about paying the $100. Continue to be surprised, like paying $100 for a divorce consultation is the last thing in the world you would consider. Tell her "Oh, I'd never consider paying anything to D you. I love you and our marriage and I know we can make it a fantastic one together."

Um, thanks for calling that out, Gamma! My wife and I have already talked about it, and I know she has. I just don't like to talk about it...

{{{{Humbled}}}}}

Nicely played!!!!

You done well.....don't doubt that.

EVERY SINGLE WORD AND ACTION coming from your WW is par for course. All the great people on here, including me, have seen and heard it all before. BELIEVE THAT!!!! It will help you get through this.

and while she spews all the usual and unoriginal fogbabble, STAY COOL, CALM, AND COLLECTED.....think Clint Eastwood.

Not much to add to what has been already been said, just wanted to CONGRADULATE you on STANDING TALL for your marriage.....

Not2fun

Humbled,

I wanted to offer you my kudos for what you�ve done. You�ve taken steps to get to recovery that I never had the guts to take.

That being said, allow me to give you this perspective:

If you do D, it will suck for a while but you�ll be ok. I feared my WXW like you did and I allowed the fear to control me. I believed the lies about letting her do things her way. I ended up divorced, separated from my kids, out of a job, and basically homeless and living off the charity of HER friends. I ended up in a mental ward for a week since I was also dealing with coming home from a deployment at the same time as all of this happened.

Now? I�m remarried to a wonderful woman, I see my kids regularly, and I feel complete indifference (if not a little disgust) towards my ex. I have a great job, great wife, and am buying a new house soon.

My message is that I see hope for you in recovering your marriage, but if you don�t there is hope and life after divorce.

You�re just a few steps into the recovery process. Believe it or not, you will be the greatest threat to your marriage down the road. Your initial shock from all of this will wear off and your desperation to get her back is what has driven you and will drive you for a while. Once her fog clears and she comes back, you will then start to question if you really want her back and will be dealing with all the triggers of FB, the messages, and everything else she did.

You stand to get over those things a little easier than if had become a PA, but the nagging thoughts will continue for a while and you�ll seriously question if you really want her.

That�s way down the road. For now hang on through the rollercoaster of emotions and I commend you for having the guts to do what you needed to do. Don�t willingly participate in any way with her attempts to get a D and clarify to her that if she goes down that path that you will not make it easy in any way and will fight for custody of the kids and make her affair a matter of public record and will submit all her messages as evidence.

This will help defog her.

Thanks, helpthelostdads. I trust everyone here enough to know you can sometimes predict things I can't, but I will say this:

On wanting her back: I have seriously considered this. I DO. I can say that unequivocably. But only if she comes back healed of this hole she has in herself. I live in a glass house. I can't throw stones. I forgive her for getting lost, because I have ben lost before in my life too and unintentionally hurt the ones I loved the most.

On being the greatest threat to my recovery down the road: When I first went to therapy for my issues, I felt like I "woke up" from 30+ years of living in a bubble - the kind of bubble you put yourself in when you're abused as a kid. And all of a sudden I was emotionally open and loving and forgiving, and ready to really, deeply connect to this wonderful DW who had stuck by me all these years.

Then I realized she was gone and replaced by an abusive WW monster. And I couldn't seem to put the walls back up that I had just cruumbled down in myself in hopes of being a better person. And it hurt. And I didn't have any of the old defense mechanisms I used to have. And I took shot after shot to the gut for three months without ever, ONCE using anger to shield myself. I let myself FEEL the pain, the anxiety, the sadness.

During this time I've gotten angry with God. And I've wondered: "Why now? Why wake me up emotionally now just so I can feel this awful pain and be abused yet AGAIN? Why not wake me up 1-2 years ago when I could have healed my marriage? Why not wake me up a year from now so I could still have been a class A jerk through this and at least protect myself as I tossed my WW out and applauded as her and OM ran off together and imploded, and then enjoyed rejecting and judging her when she came crawling back?" (because that's what I would have done before)

Now I know why. I woke up to be cleansed by fire. When recovery comes (which I hope it does), I am READY to deliver unconditional love to my wife and expect little to nothing in return for some time. And when triggers happen, I am ready to talk about them openly and honestly, without AOs. I have conquered most, if not all of my LBs. I have broken my abusive cycle. If anyone reading this realizes they have been abusive, let me tell you - it's all about fear. Stop being afraid of rejection, of not being loved, of pain. I am not afraid of pain anymore. Let yourself feel it and never, ever, be afraid of it.

Don't worry, when recovery comes I'll handle triggers in a way that will make my wife want to comfort me, not defend herself.

Humble, I predict you will come out of all this with a better marriage than you had before, if you stick to these principles. And let me explain. Your wife is an addict. When an addict gives up the addiction, something has to take its place. It is critical for the recovery of your marriage that a loving, romantic marriage fills that empty spot. If you methodically implement the concepts of this program that is what you will end up with.

This is so where marriages go wrong. Like you have observed, most marriages don't divorce over adultery. BUT...very, very few ever really recover. They limp along in a crippled state that is much worse that the pre-affair marriage.

This is how you can be different if you follow this program. Dr Harley is one of the very few who even BELIEVE in the concept of romantic love. That is what you can have with this program.

I would start by throwing out the concept of "unconditional love." That concept is a disaster to marriages that leads to false expectations of entitlement. It is in her best interest and the best interest of your marriage to NOT engage in unconditional love. This article was a real eye opener for me, and I think you will agree: Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

To go along with Mel -

A couple of articles that deal with 'Unconditional Love'

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

Unconditional love can destroy your marriage. Conditional love can help it thrive.

Happy reading

Thanks for the articles. Fair enough, but I mostly meant Plan A, where I don't expect a lot in return for some time. For the long-term state of our marriage, she needs to learn how to meet my ENs and avoid my LBs. My love will be conditional on that.

Not a shocker, but know what one of my biggest LBs is?

HAVING AN AFFAIR WITH A A-HOLE ON FB!

There, I said it. Might not be an obvious one to my wife, but yeah, that behavior will HAVE TO GO. To be fair, I never specifically mentioned that one to her over the years, so maybe it was just a misunderstanding on her part. Poor WW

By jove, I may think you've got it!


Ya THINK?!?!?



Poor WW - what were you thinking with such POOR communication....




Sorry - sometimes you need to inject some levity into the madness....

Trust me to forget to ask the obvious: how do you know she's really made an appointment? When she brings it up, and you are in the middle of acting all surprised at the very thought of D, try to get the attorney's name. I'd like to hear how readily she'll give that to you.

Humbled, I must say, I am absolutely jealous of you right now. I wish that my exposure was as explosive as yours. You have done very well my friend. KUDOS.

Don't listen to what WW has to say right now and become really good at reverse babble. You seem to be really good at it so far. I haven't seen it posted for a while, but when I first got here, almost a year ago, the posters would always say that listening to a wayward is like hearing the teacher from Peanuts. Wah wah wah wah wah wah. That's what you should be hearing when you listen to your WW right now. But DO NOT LAUGH IN HER FACE. Like Mel said, it would be a huge LB to laugh in her face.

You have done so well. Don't go back on us now. Keep strong and do a great job. You can do this. You are amazing. YAY YAY.

HELP! A little update and mostly a good day until the end...

So, been in communication with OMW. She is considering working on it with him. He is seeing a therapist. She is demanding he put EPs in place (YAY).

Problem: Got a call from WW at work today. She said she talked to SIL all day. SIL offered to let her come and stay with her for awhile. Wouldn't be so bad except she lives ONE HOUR FROM OM! I tried to call her SIL to ask her to reconsider, but she hasn't picked up. Concerned that WW lied to/manipulated her. Crap! She is trying to get closure through PA, I know it!

Help?

You can't control if this goes PA or not. There are only a couple of things that you can do.

first GET A GPS ALREADY AND PUT IT IN HER CAR.

second, tell OMW about this new development. Let her know that he will need to be ever vigilant on her side to make sure that OM is not going anywhere near WW.

Also, what is going to happen with the kiddos? Is she taking them with her? I would try to stop that from happening.

All you CAN do is make this harder for her. You can not control her actions. Breathe.

If it turns out to be true, I will notify OMW.

She won't have her car - she'd be flying there to stay with her sister. But I don't underestimate the addiction - if she's one hour away she will try to find a way to physically meet. Especially in the mindset she's in now (hates me/divorcing).

Also, she is freaking me out a little. She's not raging, just crying and still saying the same thing. Still script?

Yes, still script.
Your wife is starting to realize she was used as a sex toy by OM.
It's not how we girls want to think of ourselves.

Humbled, don't let this bother you. The affair is in the death throes. If she wants to go, I would be sure and tell the SIL the full story. You will be ok. The Titanic is sinking and she is frantically trying to save it. It can't be saved.

Tell OMW. She's your greatest ally in keeping this from getting worse.

Asap, Humbled. Tell OMW NOW, and tell your WW you've done so.

"WW, if you truly wish to leave to sort out your thoughts, I will respect that. But in honesty and openness, I will also tell you that I have informed OMW of your whereabouts, so that she can protect her marriage. Can I help you pack anything? Mapquest your destination? You know, of course, that the kids will stay with me."

I never had the luxury of being a SAHM, though it was a fantasy of mine. My kids are grown and professionals, even though they were"raised by others", they came out just fine. They appreciate everything our combined incomes gave them. They wanted for nothing. Having said that, it is time that your WW, to get her drawers out of a bunch and get down to job hunting.

How will she get her plane ticket to OM Suburbia?
What daycare will she choose in your neighborhood for the little one, since she will have to work locally?
What training does she need to get employable?
These are the pressing questions for a woman with the lofty goals she has chosen for herself.
Question her about the reality of it all. She needs to face reality, and you need to keep her cut off from the finances.
Her pity party needs to stop. SIL needs to know there is no future for your kids in her home. She needs the reality check also. GF

One thing you need to realize is that time is dragging on because all this confrontation is ONLY 1 OR 2 DAYS OLD. You need to keep your wits about you. picture it like this. The two of you are in a canoe going through the rapids. Your wife is standing up in the boat (the boat being your marriage) and freaking out. You need to stay seated and concentrate on keeping the canoe right side up. If your wife wants to visit or live with her sister for a time. Let her. But do not let her take the kids. Just let the OMW know and I am sure she will keep an extra special close eye on him. Suggest that she GPS his car. From everything you have written, the OM has already thrown her under the bus. I can virtually guarantee that it was only sex to him. He has already shut her down on running away together.

MORE HELP PLEASE.

Yes, I exposed to SIL. I will explain to her and tell OMW.

OM tightened all his privacy settings on FB so non-friends can't see ANYTHING (read, my WW can't). Yay! That will help with NC, seeing as last time she obsessively watched his wall. Tonight is rough. Came home. She is freaking out without her fix. She was frantically asking me if I had heard anything from OMW - she needs to know about OM's life! She looked like a crack addict. She asked if they were working it out, I said they are working on it. She looked sad, to which I remarked that she said she didn't want his life ruined so she should be happy for them. He is in therapy now (good thing). She asked if anything was said about her. I said I didn't think we should talk about that. She pleaded, I said "I'm trying to protect you." She begged, so I said,

"Okay, but, I tried to protect you. He told his wife it was all just online fantasy and he didn't mean any of the words he said to you." (true)

She fell apart, but quickly justified "Well, he had to tell her that to get her back. I KNOW he loves me." (lying to self)

She pushed the divorce thing again and was irate when I wouldn't pay for her lawyer. She said it was "our" money, which really struck me because I have always said that too. How should I respond to that one?

She also knows about the addictive quality of affairs (has for some time), so she said, "What, you think I'm going to go through withdrawal and magically want to stay married to you?" I said, not sure, but we should probably wait until you are in a better place to discuss this."

Tonight sucks. I came home from work and went in the backyard with the kids. When I came in the house she was gone (wishing I had the GPS now, but we live 1500 miles from OM). She has been gone two hours. She left her phone here. She knows I will obsess wondering where she is. At least I know she is not with OM. I am guessing she is punishing me?

Never mind on the running off tonight thing. She went to Taco Bell and the movies. I checked our bank account (everything we do is on a debit card). I'm sure she thinks I'm worried - now I don't have to be

Sorry you are going through this, Humbled. I know it's hard to believe but it will get better. Hang in there

Regarding the money issue. Tell her its only OUR money as long as you're married to me. Tell her that your sorry but your not going to put the gun in her hand so she can shoot you. Also, DO NOT SHARE ANYMORE INFORMATION ABOUT THE OTHER MAN WITH HER. If she was really going to divorce you, she needs to find a job. If I were you, I would separate finance and cut of the debit card. If you can't trust her with your heart, you can't trust her with your money.

See how she is trying to scare you?

Our Money = FAMILY money.

It is money to benefit and serve the family.

It will NOT be used to undermine and destroy that family. If she wants to destroy her family she is welcome to do so with her OWN means. You will continue to do what is best for your family.

And I'd suggest that you no longer discuss OM or OMW. When your wife brings it up tell her you will not become a method for her to get her 'fix' of OM. Because that is what she is doing.

When she needles for information politely let her know that OM is out of your life and you will not discuss him.

What is your game plan for Plan A?

Thanks all. This part is really hard. My family feels so broken. My DW and I used to communicate so honestly - I am used to believing her words. It feels like she is done with me. I am holding strong to what you are all telling me - it's only been a day and a half since exposure, but this is so hard. I admit it, I am doubting now and questioning what I did. No worries, it's all internal - I haven't changed my front to her. I hope I have enough strength for weeks, and I pray the fog starts to lift even a little in that time.

Last night was so sad. I put the kids to bed alone - made me feel what it would be like if she was really gone and it was sad and lonely and broken and I missed her so much. We used to be such a happy, loving little family. We always put the kids to bed together - we have a whole ritual of shared kisses and hugs. The kids were sad and didn't understand why mommy wasn't there to kiss and hug them good night. It made me cry and broke my heart.

She came in shortly after they were asleep and didn't say a word to me. Then she spent some time on the computer googling D without lawyers and online D, and she filled out some paperwork online for a D.

I'm trying, guys. I'm doing my best. I'm still scared and sad right now. I hope I see some improvement in the coming weeks.

Humbled, you will be fine. You have snatched the crack pipe from the crack head, and sure, she is furious. She wants to punish you. But as she sobers up and faces reality, she will come to her senses.

Be there for her in a caring, compassionate way, but not an ENABLING way and she will come around. Don't let her manipulate or scare you because that will embolden her to abuse you rather than come back to the marriage.

You are on the right track. Just ride it out.

Humbled, of course your WW is trying to make you worry. You see it benefits her 2 ways. One, she gets to hurt you. She is pulling out all of her ammo trying to hurt you just as bad as you hurt her(blah blah blah). The second way it benefits her is if you don't worry about her. Then she says, "See, you don't care about me anyways."

Not only are waywards selfish and self centered crazy people, they also seem to behave like teenagers. They play childish games. They are so "in love" with their APs. Just making you aware so you can understand more about what you are dealing with.

There really is no reasoning and no understanding them. Some of the vets here have been around to see a lot of waywardness. That's why they can see what a wayward is going to do or say. It really is like they are reading from the same script. Have you read the craziest things to come out of a wayward's mouth, or any of the other threads like that? There is a bunch of things that your WW will say or has said and then some even crazier things. It will help you.

Stay strong. You did the very best thing and how you act now will speak volumes.

p.s. while it doesn't seem like it, your marriage is 1000% better off today than it was 2 days ago. The greatest threat to your marriage is this affair and you have killed it. Her anger will blow over and she will sober up as she withdraws from the OM.

I think she is in shock that others don't see her affair in the same light as she. For example, only a very fogged out person would have the NERVE to send an email to the OM's wife. Yet your wife believed she could explain this away. She was in shock that the enraged OMW cussed her out.

Seeing herself through the eyes of others has been a big wake up call to your wife. A much needed wake up call.

One more thing(you were posting while I was compiling so this thought came from your more recent post). The beauty about MB plans is that you do these things for YOU. You don't worry about the reactions or non reactions of your wayward. You will learn how to have an extraordinary marriage and how to be the best participant in a spectacular marriage. You work on YOU. That's all that is asked from you. You can't control what other people do and you can't make anyone stay with you. All you do is show your WW that you are a better alternative.

Focus on leaning how to be a better Humbled.

She will get a rude awakening trying to do a DIY (do-it-yourself) divorce online when property and children are involved. Also, those are generally used for non-contested divorces. They don't go deep enough to explain the intricacies of a contested divorce and in fact will have a disclaimer warning her not to try it on her own if the divorce is contested.

How did she pay for the online documents? Debit card again? I hope you've told her that you won't be paying any $$ towards the destruction of your family including online forms or a filing fee if she's dumb enough to go the DIY route.

You're doing great Humbled. I know this is hard and it hurts BAD. Focus on YOU and your KIDDOS who really need a sane parent right now.

One more thing, is there any possibility that she is reading here? When you said she mentioned withdrawal, it made me wonder.

Everything you're feeling is so normal for where you are right now, Humbled. Look around you - look at the rubble that your WW has made of your 'old' lives. Take stock of that and grieve for what is lost. I'll give you about, oh, 5, maybe 10 minutes.

Now look again. Look at your children. They depend on you for their very lives. And you, sir, have protected them well against this terrible onslaught to your M. Many posters have not. They were afraid of their WS's wrath. And now they get to see their kids every other weekend and alternating holidays.

See the foundation that you are beginning to rebuild. And you'll be rebuilding a better M, not preparing for a D because you hesitated and were lost. You EXPOSED, Humbled. Lots of posters didn't, and they aren't here anymore. They are divorced and no longer need our support. It's going to be bumpy and difficult at times. You've got to embrace that as part of rebuilding.

So it's okay to grieve the good things that you've lost - but you're going to end up with a better M - keep that goal squarely in front of you.

You've got the right stuff. Use it.

Bingo!

And to take it a step further. I think your WW's fog was on the very extreme side...because of the fact that she was able to conduct the A in the open and her waywardness was enabled. So she lived her fantasy from morning until night. Probably OM occupied her thoughts most of the day so exactly like Mel said, her system is in complete shock right now.

Have you watched Dr H's video on infidelity yet? I'm pretty sure he refers to the period of withdrawal as being pretty rough, that the WS is miserable and that you've got to give it some time.

Just do us a favor and don't despair yet. Her reaction and the things she is doing right now don't surprise me in the least.

I say maybe it's a good thing for her to be looking up D. Once she finds out how much it will cost and she has to start thinking about things like not being with her kids very much and having to find a job, it may help to clear the fog a little bit. If she brings it up, I would let her know it's not going to be uncontested and that you will be dragging all of her dirty laundry (evidence of the A) into it.

Otherwise, keep doing things with the kids and making the home a pleasant place to be.

I want to add something....get a notebook and document EVERYTHING! Dates, times, events, EVERYTHING. Document her leaving the marital home and her children, when she is home or not home, the amount of time she spends one on one with the children. I say this to protect you JUST IN CASE....she decides to go the D route (which I highly doubt will happen). If you have to fight for full custody of the kids then that information will come in handy. You think you will remember, but in six months you will look back and realize you are in a bit of a fog yourself!

How is she paying for her plane ticket to leave? I personally would not allow her to use "our money" to leave. If she does leave, I would cut off access to "our money". I'm honestly not sure that is what others would recommend but I think the tougher it can be while she is gone.....the better it will be.

Take care of yourself, be the best dad you can be, and when you have the opportunity, be the best husband you can be.

All good advice, itsamess. I don't think she has any plans on following through with a D, either. Humble, you said yourself that you are a logical thinker. Think about this: you took away her drug, and she's enraged. What would be her most logical response? To hit you back. How's she going to do that? Not by sitting quietly on the couch and letting your words of wisdom sink in, no way. That wouldn't be hitting back, would it? Nope - her most logical move at this point would be to hit you back by talking divorce.

Actually, when you look at it, googling divorce info online a GOOD thing. It gives her a chance to blow off steam by feeling like she's doing something. The worst thing would have been for her to pack an overnight bag and walk out without a backwards glance.

I agree - as long as she is angry she is ENGAGED in the marriage. She is in it - in some form or another.

It is often said the opposite of love isn't hate - it is apathy. As long as she is angry you got a good chance of turning her around. That is why it is SO crucial that you do a STELLAR Plan A. Be loving, and caring. Plan things with the family and invite her. Be pleasant to be around. Really you shouldn't be doing much relationship talk at all - there isn't much to say at this point.

Also - of the 3 stages of marriage - Intimacy, Conflict, and Withdrawal - Conflict is a pretty good spot to be in. Easier to get to Intimacy if you're in Conflict. MUCH harder if she is in Withdrawal from YOU.

So don't let your discussions degenerate into fights. Play the broken record game and be a model husband. Show her that YOU can give her the love she needs.

Done.

Nope - I know that for sure. She only mentioned that because we both have degrees in Psych and when this all started I gave her some literature on affair addiction and withdrawal. Sad - didn't seem to matter.

Wow, lot to report. Might take a post or two.

This morning - Some insanity and rage came out! WW told me she left last night because if she didn't she was going to stab me or do something stupid. She told me she wants to stab me in the face and was trying to think of ways to poison me or murder me, and then she would go to jail and the kids would be orphans and it would be all my fault. I told her I was sorry she felt that way

She was still jonesing for a fix, but I shut that down twice. Told her I was done with "OMW's husband" in my life and didn't want to talk about him anymore.

Then at work I had an amazing moment. Not sure if it was five minutes of her coming out of the fog or what but it was nice while it lasted. She sent me a letter my mom sent her ripping her a new one and then called me on the phone. No anger, she was crying. She sounded like the old DW for a moment. She asked me to read the letter and then told me how my SIL had also been disgusted with her, and she asked me, "Is this really what everyone thinks of me?" It seemed like their tough love got through the fog for a moment (?) Anyway, I let me front down for a minute and said "Well, I know it seems harsh but I think there's some truth in there. Reading it is making me step back and look at you from the outside too - maybe I've been too close before to see some things. I do know that they love you and are trying to help you." And I left it at that.

Was that okay?

More on today. OM and OMW still holding strong (Yay!) OM and OMW have EP in place and he has agreed to tell her the minute my WW tries to make contact. Saw that my WW went on FB today and made a fake account because he had blocked her old one. Now she is spying on him (I told you she was obsessive - he has fully rejected her and she WILL NOT accept it. She has been arguing vehemently with her family that he really LOVES her.)

Should I block her from FB?

Told OMW about WW trying to fly out there and stay with SIL. She thanked me and has a CHOKEHOLD on OM. Then she wrote my WW two huge NASTY messages and went ballistic on her - I am LOVING OMW - she is AWESOME! She says all the things to my WW I would want to say but I don't have to be the "enemy" I really see why now the OMW is my best ally in this

Also had great talk with SIL who lives near OM. My WW lied, of course. SIL did not offer to fly WW out to stay - WW ASKED to stay (of course) and SIL agreed, but I (BH) would have to pay for plane ticket. Umm...NOPE! Wrong answer.

WW called me today. She is obsessed with stopping OM from finding out about all the lies she told him. She was begging me not to tell OMW the lies! Apparently, my fogged-up WW doesn't want to ruin OM's departing "image" of her. Man, she is confusing to talk to! But I've got some power back now and it feels nice. I wasn't sure how to handle it so I said, "I won't lampoon you out of nowhere, but if she asks, I'll tell you and we can discuss it again." So...if OMW asks, should I tell her the lies?

For now I have this in my pocket, so getting home tonight has been quiet. WW is watching kids and made dinner (hopefully not poisoned ) and is being very quiet but civil. I know she still hates me and is just behaving, but who cares? I am enjoying the quiet. Plus it's nice to feel in control a little bit.

You are doing just great!!

You very much should compare notes with the OMW and rectify all the lies. Your wife wants to protect her image so she can LEAVE THE DOOR OPEN. You must expose all of her lies and tell your wife. This will effectively slam the door on any lingering fantasy of your wife's. Don't agree to hide her lies! that only harms her and your marriage.

Helping her continue to maintain that fantasy and deceive the OM is ENABLING. And enabling is always bad.


See, she was so protected by you in her fantasy that she is in shock at how others view her. This was particularly evidenced by the fact that she emailed the OMW to "explain" her feelings. She didn't grasp how inappropriate this was because she didn't understand how sleazy and inappropriate her affair is.

This is the beauty of exposure. Exposure is to bring a crowd of onlookers into the crack house to watch the crackheads get high. It is no fun to get high when everyone is watching with disgust and horror on their face!!

And bravo to your mother!!

You are so right. And yes, her fantasy lasted DAY TO NIGHT. I see that now, and my mom's letter to her and observations really hit me too. My DW had always been a sweet, wonderful woman, but even then she had an attitude of entitlement - that she should simply expect a big nice house in the suburbs, nice cars, vacations, spending money, beautiful kids and family, great husband, and yet never have to achieve any of those things herself (instead, meet a guy like me who would provide them while she stays at home or works little odd jobs that she enjoys).

I have been spoiling her rotten for 17 years and have delivered on EVERY SINGLE one of these things. And yet she has never really appreciated the life or marriage she has - EVER - that is an ongoing problem for her. And my mom called her out on that. And worse now, because I went through my personal therapy and issues during the affair, I got so guilt-riddled that I MADE IT WORSE by taking the blame for the state of our marriage and feeling like I deserved the abuse she was heaping on me. Stupid, stupid, stupid. I see now how unhealthy that was.

So...how do I work my wife out of this sense of entitlement now? You are so right - it is making her fog insanely thick. Not sure if it is time yet, but I started today. When I read my mom's letter I told my wife it was "making me re-look at her from the outside" to which she seemed a little frightened. Also, later, when the OMW went ballistic on her she actually had the nerve to ask me to write OMW and explain what a rotten husband I was so she (WW) wouldn't look "crazy"! I said, "Umm...NO." I told her I didn't and wouldn't lie about my shortcomings if asked but I wasn't going to air our dirty laundry, unless she would like me to air all of it and share all of her doozies from over the years with everyone. Guess what her response was to that? "Forget it then."

You are all so right - God I love my DW but I created a monster! Help - how do I set it straight now? All in one shot or little by little? Is now (Day 2 withdrawal) the right time?

Okay all, you were right. It's been 48 hours and the rage seems to have died down. The best way I can describe my WW's mood all night would be...sulky, pouting, defeated. Definitely defeated. She seems SO confused by the truckloads of crap everyone she knows is giving her over the way she is behaving. She has been quiet but COMPLETELY civil all night, and she made a few odd comments:

When I asked her if she would like me to watch the kids because she's been with them all day, she said, "No I haven't - I haven't watched them like I should all day. I'll do it."

When I asked her if she'd like me to give them their bath, she said, "No. I don't have a life - I'm not that busy."

The best exchange of all?

WW: "Why is it that everyone doesn't care that you emotionally abused me? Shouldn't that be equal with what I did? Did you downplay it when you told them?"

Me: "Why don't you ask them that when you talk to them?" (she has been avoiding them and has been GREATLY exaggerating the way I mistreated her when she does talk)

WW: "I did. They all just blew it off and ripped ME a new one. I don't get why - do they not think what you did is that bad?"

Me: "No. They know it was a problem in our marriage that we needed to work on, and they know that I did. But they also know it is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for what you did to me and the kids."

And I left it at that. I am watching her and the wheels are spinning in there...she has a lot on her mind and is certainly not focused on what a jerk I AM today...

Is this a glimmer of my DW trying to come to her senses?

Hey humbled. One of the problems I see is that you really don't want the old wife back. She was spoiled, entitled, ungrateful, lazy and manipulative. What exactly about those qualities are attractive to you? The truth is, you should be the one talking to her about whether you want her back. Or if you should divorce her. I am not saying to end your marriage. But if you take her back the way she is/was after her betrayal, what reason does she have to change? That is why it wouldn't be so bad if she went to see the SIL. In essence, once there you go NC with her. You force her to work on her side of the marriage, instead of you doing all the heavy lifting. I do believe in the Harley's methods. But to restore things the way they were b4, is that your goal?

I mean for her to tell you things, like she would want to stab you or poison you. Does that seem like someone who is worth or deserving of your love and commitment? She says she doesn't have a life. When in fact she had a great life. She just didn't appreciate it... She is like a child. A child that has a toy or a pet (her life) that she doesn't want or care for anymore. What do you do with a child that acts that way? You take it away from her.

For instance regarding access to your finances. The finances you provide her are part of "her" life. Well she has told you that her life sucks. So why would you give her something from her old life that she was so unhappy with? Your provision was part of your love and commitment to her. She doesn't appreciate it. How about the house she lives in? Or the car she drives? In reality she needs a complete mental readjustment. In truth she needs an "Its a wonderful life" wake up call. If she doesn't have it. What exactly makes you think that she won't simply find some other guy to fill her "perceived" emotional needs. In other words she has to want a better life with you then she had when she was drawn into her sanctioned affair.

There is another movie I would highly recommend. Its called "The painted veil". It may trigger you somewhat. But it would give you a different perspective as well.

Your wife needs a boot camp, but her boot camp should be you driving her to a podunk town, setting her up in a low rent motel. Then getting her a job at a fast food restaurant or even at the motel cleaning rooms. She should have to experience a life that was hand to mouth. No support. Barely subsiding. It could be one of the greatest gifts you give her. The chance to really think about the wonderful life she is throwing away.

Again. Its not about punishment or revenge. Its about teaching her to appreciate her life with you. About her wanting to crawl into your lap at the end of the day when you come home, telling you how much she missed you all day. Sharing with you all the things the kids did. About bringing back (or maybe introducing her to) the joy her life really is. Just a few thoughts.

Yes, let her get through withdrawal.

For right now, I just want to re-emphasize what Mel was saying in the earlier post about not enabling the waywardness. I don't know that I would be willing to discuss OM or OMW with her anymore (except to tell her that you've told them the truth about all her lies)...

When it is time to move into the Recovery phase, you will sit your WW down and let her know that YOU will be willing to forgive her and stay in the M but that it will be conditional. When the WS knows that the BS will stay in the M at all costs, their motivation to change is lowered and they sometimes stay foggy...or just don't do what is necessary to really recover the M.

So you will want to keep the bar high for recovery, requiring coaching from the Harleys for example. Maybe even have her post/read here. Have you read Harley's Requirements for Recovery? Don't worry about having this talk with her just yet but it's coming and you will get more help from posters about your "conditions".

You are really doing a great job. Hang in there.

Heck, yeah, Humbled! Things are moving along in typical withdrawal fashion at the Humbled House. I'll caution you, though - keep an eye on her. Your WW may attempt to contact OM again while she's going through this. Waywards do not like the sudden reality when they're first coming out of the fog. It's like having to get out of bed on a cold morning when you're all warm and cozy under the covers. You want to burrow under the covers for just a little longer, you know?

I can't advise you to do anything differently than you're doing it now. Keep it up - you're doing great! We'll be directing new posters to your thread when they balk at exposure, so they see how important it is.

I hear what you are saying. No one is perfect. And yes, entitled and ungrateful are true. She was never lazy - she does not shy away from hard work, but more like...unambitious? Not motivated? She wants things but doesn't enact plans to get them. And my DW really wasn't manipulative. The family is in shock for the same reason I am - she was a gentle, sweet, nice, giving person. Her flaws are that she was spoiled as a child and her parents didn't set too many boundaries for her, but my DW truly has a good, good heart. I do want my DW back, but yes - I want her to grow up and be more appreciative.


I have already thought of how those conversations will go when we are in the right place. And our families are already pointing those things out to her now.


I know it is insane, but my DW has never said anything remotely CLOSE to that to me in 17 years. I believe when everyone says it is my WW talking and she is DEEP in the fog. My DW cups bugs and takes them outside because she can't even bear to see an ant killed.


Yes, see above. Very good observation.


I get that, but it might not be necessary. I didn't give my WW all these things immediately in our marriage - she knows what it is like to be poor, because we were for years. She worked crap jobs back then. She remembers, and does not want to give up what we have now and go back to that. She feels like she worked hard to get to this place, but to be honest what she really did was 'endured'. I am the one who got us to this place, and that is exactly what people are pointing out to her now.

The other reason her thinking was so crazy with entitlement is because she had convinced herself somehow that if she left me that support would still be there - that it didn't go with me. She also convinced herself that I'd still be her friend because we would co-parent, she'd still have me "in her life", have me there to talk to, show her unconditional love and affection, compliment her, desire her, and even felt like we'd still hang out and sleep together once in ahile basically when she felt like it. Like I said, complete entitlement and assuming she could cheat on me, leave me, and I would still be there to meet literally all her needs on demand. And I am at fault for part of that, because I always told her I would love her unconditionally forever and that she would always be the love of my life. That I would help her get on her feet if we ever divorced. I have spent the last few weeks correcting that perception, and our conversations about divorce money are doing wonders to correct it too.

The best part is that when WW cried to my SIL about how I wouldn't pay for a D, her own S told her to keep watching the kids during the day and get a night job. We're getting there.

I will, but man, the OMW is taking care of that! You should have seen her emails to my WW - they were great! She maade it clear in no uncertain terms to stay away from her H, and also made it clear that he has already deleted every trace of my WW from his life and has voluntarily told her the one time my WW tried to contact him. She told her clearly that he does not WANT to talk to my WW anymore.

Nice! I am loving OMW (and let your mom know that she's aces, too! Good job with the letter, Mom! )

YES!
"Betty's husband" .... every time. NEVER his name.
A mini reality check. EVERY time.
And, isn't it wonderful that "Betty" can play the "bad cop" role to your "good cop" !
God bless her.

How are the kiddos holding up?
Any Labor Day plans?

Kids are super-fine-tuned into Mom vs Dad tension.
And, truth be told, your WW was distracted from their needs for quite awhile.
WW's make lousy Moms.
The WW mom tends to feel resentment and gets a little bristled when something mundane, like a child's needs, interrupts her fantasy train.

I'm just saying, keep an eye on your kids.
They will be fine, but just pay attention.

My OTHER concern, at this juncture, is that WW is currently vulnerable to another internet-born EA.
If anything appears suspicious to you, shut it down immediately and permanently.
It is not unusual for a wacky WW in withdrawal to choose a different fantasy object. NOT saying your WW will do this, just be aware.

Now, the praise.

GREAT JOB !!!

My sentiments exactly.

Thanks, all. I am watching her like a HAWK on the internet. But I doubt that will happen - my wife has always been the person who obsesses or latches on to one person at a time. I think a million Hollywood starlets are attractive. She has been infatuated with Ben Affleck for like, ten years. It's just the way she is

As for the internet, the OM blocked his FB so NO ONE who isn't his friend can see ANYTHING. So when I checked her "fake" profile on FB, she still couldn't see squat. COLD TURKEY!

She hasn't even logged on the internet in the last 24 hours. That is like, a record for her since this began.

Oh yeah, and she informed me she was being civil and nice in front of the kids now but once they're asleep didn't want to talk to me like "everything's okay". I think she is using them as an excuse to get comfort from me. Whatever.

She also hasn't mentioned D in 24 hours. I'm waiting for the next wave on the rolloer coaster.....

Kiddos are doing better. Yesterday when I got home she was cuddling with them under a blanket and actually smiling for them. (YAY!)

Not sure for this weekend - taking it day by day. I'll take the kids to do the usual Saturday chores with me today that we would normally do as a family, and I'll invite her if she wants to come. As for tomorrow and Monday I'm going to plan some fun activities out of the house. Maybe the park, or the state fair.

Humbled-

Now, YOU have a real-word plan, which is working for you.

The waywards are, generally speaking, intertwined with their fantasy plans, which are real-world removed.

That is where your real power and actual authority dwell, in your real world plans.

Steady as she goes.
Stick to the plans.

Your marriage will improve.
It takes time, a plan, and effort.

Simple, but not easy.

Already starting - I got up this morning and made all the beds, got the kids dressed and got them breakfast. (Domestic Support is big for her) I made a list today for the store (grocery shopping, running errands, etc.), groomed myself and dressed in a way she likes. She was on the phone with her mom.

Me: "I'm taking the kids shopping and on errands. You can come if you like. Need anything?"

WW: "I don't know."

(after getting ready to walk out door)

Me: "Okay kids, give Mommy a kiss and hug goodbye." (to WW) "If you think of anything you want or need, call me and let me know."

WW: "You guys can wait for me if you want, I'll go. Or not, it's up to you."

Too funny.

Humbled, I would correct this little problem TODAY and get it out of the way. Let me explain why. Your W beleives that as long as the OM still believes her LIES, that there is hope. She is counting on this in order to pursue her affair again.

If you get the truth of her lies to the OM, it will be the nail in the coffin. It will DASH all of her hopes.

This needs to be done NOW so she gives up that hope NOW and you can move onto recovery. She will not move onto recovery until all hope is gone.

And lastly, agreeing to the above was another act of ENABLING on your part, something that has poisoned your marriage. It is not an act of compassion or love. For her to believe that you will help her LIE is not the kind of message you want to send to a wayward. She needs to know you will help her be GOOD and that you love her too much to help her be BAD.

Correct this mistake now, humbled. Get it done while things are still in an uproar so you can move on in the future.

You're probably right, Humbled. However - the W you know is not is residence right now. Discount nothing.


She is totally pissed at you right now, and I suspect the last thing she wants from you is comfort. I suspect she's beginning to reconnect with the kids as her fogginess lessens. Like Pepper said, active waywards are lousy parents. I think she's been emotionally neglecting them in order to concentrate on her A. She'll come back around to you, though.


Tighten your belt, because it's not over yet. But you'll be okay because you did it right!

Need some help with fogbabble. We're in Day 3 after exposure, and she is not screaming or irate anymore (no death threats today). But she is wanting to talk, and is saying things that are throwing me off a bit. Help with responses?

WW: "I should hate OM, shouldn't I? I'm trying to hate him so I can get over him. I should hate him, right?"
Me: "YES. You should hate him. You came clean at your house and your whole marriage and life are a mess. He didn't, and when I exposed him, he threw you under the bus and told his wife you meant nothing."
WW: "Yeah, but he had to do that to save his marriage, right?"
Me: "No. He could've done what you did. Instead he told his wife you meant nothing and dropped you like a hot potato."
(Okay, this exchange was a tough one, because I know I'm not supposed to talk with her about OM, but how could I resist this?)

WW: "Do you hate me for what I did?"
Me: "Hate is a strong word. I don't hate you, I love you. But I think what you did to me is horrendous and unacceptable, and I won't tolerate it in a marriage."
Me: "Do you think I should?"
WW: "Yes. I think you should kick me out on the street with nothing and never look back."
(how did I do here?)

WW: (pretty much all day whenever I am nice or decent or pleasant to her) "You don't have to be nice to me. I don't deserve it."
(what do I say to that?)

I think you did VERY well.

As far as the last one, you may want to let her know that you are nice to her because YOU choose to treat her that way.

Also, just general craziness today (Day 3). Not sure how to respond sometimes - I think we're past the robotic "I'm fighting for my marriage and family." response. Any advice is appreciated.

She has been ALL OVER THE BOARD today. Let's see, she decided to go out to lunch and shopping wiht me and the kids. On the way out, she sees a painting/roofing service at the neighbors and says, "We really need some of that stuff done on the house. You should go get a card. Do you have it in the budget for this year or next year?" (HUH?)

Then at lunch, she says "My mom offered to help me pay for the D." My response: "Okay." Then she says, "Either that or I will wait until I get a job and save up the money."

She finally used the kids to try and hurt me at lunch today (so sad). She told my daughter, "That's right, Mommy and Daddy are living in separate grown-up rooms for awhile and then Mommy is going to move out and get her own apartment." I gave her no reaction whatsoever, and she dropped it after that. But it pissed me off. I'll talk to my daughter in private later.

Then she asks me about OMW and I say, "I'm done talking about them." She gets teary-eyed and says, "You never talk about anything anymore! I'm walking home!" and storms out of restaurant, leaving me and kids there. Five minutes later she comes back "It's too far to walk in my flip-flops. Drop me off at home on the way to the store." So I just drive straight to the store and she says nothing until we're inside, and then says, "You were supposed to drop me off at home." My response, "Oh yeah, I forgot. Must have been on autopilot." She drops it and doesn't seem to care.

Almost forgot - the self-pity party! She told me today she was going to just "get all frumpy and dumpy now because she never wanted another man to look at her again."

Mrs H .... GROW UP !

It may help to view her as you would a drug addict in withdrawal. Be her lighthouse and stay calm and confident.

Remember the basics of Plan A. Meet her needs. Avoid lovebusters. Be vigilant about the affair.

By the way, what have you told the kids so far? How old are the kids? Have you exposed to them too?

Apologize if you have already posted this information, but I haven't had time to read your whole thread. I can tell you that my sitch is close to yours in that my wife's affair started as a serious EA. Went PA in June. I have been in Plan A for about 9 months with an unrepentant, active wayward. I think I have worked a pretty good Plan A and I've heard it all from my WW.

She is just baiting you right and left. It's like I said about going down the rapids. Right now she is throwing everything out that comes to mind. Sad to hear that she said that to your daughter.

Humbled, you are going to have to explain this situation truthfully to your DD before your wife really screws her up. I have no doubt that your W will try to discuss her OM with your DD if she hasn't already.

She needs to be told about your wife's affair and that she is not in her right mind now. Let her know that you are doing evrything to save your marriage and that it is very unlikely to result in divorce. Your DD should be encouraged to ask your wife questions about her adultery and explain why she would ruin her family for ...............THAT.

THAT will wake up your very foggy wife.

After this discussion I would tell your W what you have discussed and that she needs to STOP telling your DD you are getting a divorce unless it is true.

That is truly despicable of her to use your DD in this way.

Also, humbled, I would be describing a future divorce in the most possible horrific light. Let her know this:

1. I will countersue on grounds of adultery

2. i will have OM and his wife subpoenaed to testify under oath about the affair

3. I will sue for full possession of the home and primary custody of the children

4. you will have to move out and get a job to support yourself and pay child support to me.

5. I will give you no spousal support and I WILL NOT BE YOUR "FRIEND"

6. I will fight the divorce every step of the way so I hope you have lots and lots of money to defend yourself.

7.I will make sure our kids know what you did to their family. that you broke it up over a sleazy online affair with a married man

Tell her this, H. Give her a reality check of what she faces.

MB, I love that!

Pretty much sums it up, doesn't it.

Now's the time for reality to meet your WW, Humbled. Present it to her just like Mel says. It will not be agreeable to her, and that's as it should be. Present it just like Mel says.

Update - end of Day 3

Things got a little crazy tonight, more rage and WW threatened to go find someone to have a ONS with tomorrow if I didn't give her a D. I stood firm and she stormed out of my bedroom.

When she calmed down she popped her head out of the fog for a bit. We had a four-hour heart-to-heart. It was like the old us talking for most of it (I saw the ugly fog raise its head a few times, but she was mostly coherent, remorseful, and unselfish!)

WW agreed that she needed to get through her withdrawal before she could really see straight or think about "us". She agreed to stay here at home and stop all the divorce talk for at least 2-3 months (happy!). She acknowledged though that she would need to stay in the guest room for a while and would need time to go through the process and emotions.

I hope this sticks! (I think it will so long as I don't commit any huge LBs) I'm exhausted but I'll do my best to fill out the EN questionnaire tomorrow and get help with a solid Plan A.

I know most of you will have no mercy but the following made me feel sad for her. I asked her before I went to bed if she was sure she could do this. Her response, "Yes. Besides...I have no place else to go." I know it's just self-pity but it made me sad. I've messed my life up before to the point where everyone was disappointed in me. I know what a lonely place that is.

Have you talked about any requirements for recovery, Humbled? I mean, what happens while she's living in the guest room? I don't like that set-up. Have you eliminated the internet so that she has no access? Have you talked to her about ENs?

I'm hurt, Humbled, truly, that you think we're so heartless. No, I can see how you'd think that. We don't cotton-coat much when it comes to the business of saving marriages and ending affairs. But listen, we don't dislike your WW. As a matter of fact, I hope to see her posting here in the near future. I promise I'll be nice to her...unless she starts babbling wayward foolishness...

I too am sad that you think we are so heartless. We can tend to be a little harsh at times, but it is always done out of the end result of saving marriages. It isn't easy to get someone to see that the way you used to do things was wrong. You need to change everything about you and when you get on this side of the equation, you forget that other people don't see it the same way. Also, although I don't have a recovered marriage, I truly believe in MB and that it creates BETTER marriages than anything else out there. I preach about it to all of my IRL friends and I try to help them whenever I can. It's like a new religion though, people just aren't always willing to buy into it. It really is a lot of work.

Now, I understand that you are afraid that your WW will leave, but you need to get into the marriage saving mode. You blew up this affair, except for the lies that you should still make sure to tell OMW and tell your WW that you did. If you do it now, you can get all of her anger and resentment done all at the same time.

Next, I think you should get her on the phone with Steve. I have seen many times that Steve really knows how to get through to a WW. I don't want to see this opportunity wasted.

Nope, I have no sympathy for the "woe is me" victim mentality that so many waywards seem to have. Your history shows you have a weakness for your WW when she plays this card and she uses this vulnerability against you.

Why haven't you answered ML's posts to you regarding your DD and also the lies that your WW thinks you are protecting?

Humbled,

I don't like this path you are going down at all. IMO, you just set yourself up for more weak boundaries & bad behavior from your WW.

Did you see my post to you earlier about gearing yourself up for the talk about what YOU are going to require from her in order for YOU to stay in this M?

Oh, and the advice you got to watch her for another A? I think that was spot on.

ok, Humbled, listen up. It is time to lead your marriage out of the swamp. You are going to have to stand up and be the leader here. Allowing your wife, the drunk driver, to drive is going to result in a major crash. And right now she is driving the car. That needs to change.

Remember what I said earlier that while most marriages don't divorce over adultery, but that most don't ever recover? It is because they have no plan of recovery. The limp along for years in a crippled state that is worse than pre-affair marriage. With no plan, that is your future. No plan - no recovery.

Right now there is a huge vacuum in your wife's life where the affair was. If there is not a plan in place to fill that gap and restore your marriage, I assure you she will be onto the next affair before long. I can tell she is already thinking about it and trying to figure out a way to achieve that.

I have some ideas to get this on track but I have some questions first. Would you consider enrolling in the online program at Marriage Builders -OR- getting phone counseling with one of the Harley kids? Either of those will be the fastest horse out of this. The online program is about $1000 and is worth every penny. [my H and I went through this when it was held in a hotel]

When you sign up for the online program, they assign you a coach who assigns your lessons and follows up with you every week. You would have daily access to Dr Harley on the weekend forum. This is where I think you would really benefit because if your wife wasn't getting on board, Dr Harley would gently persuade her. He would do it, instead of you. here

This would not only provide a solid plan for recovery but you would also have Dr Harley and your assigned coach working to motivate your wife to participate.

Many of us here have gone through this same program with excellent results.

Hi All,

FYI, things going well. Dynamic in house and WW seems to be changing a lot. WW complete acceptance that A is OVER and OM not what he seemed, didn't care for her/love her as she thought (she claims complete, but probably more like 80-90%).

WW not going on web anymore (2 days) except to answer family's emails. WW accepting withdrawal symptoms as they come (shaky, skin crawling, depression, loss of appetite). Confusion about her own feelings towards OM and me.

WW caring less and less what OM's "parting image" of WW is. WW rethinking divorce and wondering now if we can fix this. More motivated to fix this - DD cried and asked her not to leave house yesterday and it broke WW's heart and motivated her.

Attitude of entitlement seems to have left the building - I and her family have been HAMMERING this one home. WW finally understands that I should be furious with her and accepts my anger as deserved on her part. I even vented today (respectfully but STRONGLY) and she humbly accepted it and apologized. WW understands that she has things to work on and that I will have demands for reconciliation.

WW feels lots of remorse, and starting to feel remorse towards me. Said she feels something deep in her stomach - she "cries for me there but isn't ready to say it out loud yet"?(her words - weird)

WW said "I love you" to me before bed, laid in our marital bed by me talking for 5 minutes this morning and asked me if I needed a hug today. Manipulation or progress? Torn because I trust you all but I also told you all my DW is in there and has always been strong/smart cookie. Thoughts? I am open.

Not avoiding anything here - quick message because whole family came down with a bug. Me, WW, DD, DS, all puking...kind of on pause for a moment. I'll get back to all other questions soon.

Hope you guys feel better soon! The bug is no fun and definitely a pause button in one's life. You are very early into recovery and it sounds as if your wife is coming slowly out of the fog. I agree with ML, you should start leading the recovery in a different way now that your wife is beginning to show remorse.

P.S. Sorry, I had to chuckle at some of the things your (F?)WW is saying. Only out of the mouths of waywards. Later (much later) you'll be able to chuckle about them too. You're doing GREAT Humble and I agree this thread will be used many times for future BHs who are afraid to expose.

OK! Sounds like you need to start putting down those conditions/ EP'S in place and things you guys need to do to start recovering from this mess.

1.) Write a NC letter to OM (and you send it after reading it)
2.) 20 Hours of UA time together per week
3.) MC with the harleys
4.) Read "His needs, Her needs" and do the questionnaire.
5.) Transperancy, you need all access to phone, email, text, and FB. No secrets!
6.) No more talking to other men, even if they are dear friends since child hood.

You can always add

GOOD LUCK!

Hi All,

Just have a minute to post. Thanks for the feedback - as soon as I can I will re-read the previous posts and answer questions. I'll also work on the conditions. Because we are so early on and she is still in and out of the fog, I may get agreement on some before others but I will be firm and persistent until they are all in place.

It is really weird to watch her. I am having conversations with her (good ones), and I can LITERALLY see her vacillate in and out of the fog. Thanks to all your feedback I am getting better at seeing when it takes over and when it lifts. It's like watching someone who is delusional - who has immersed themselves in a fantasy that they don't want to let go of - slowly become aware of reality and wake up. And I can see that the selfish, WW side of her is literally FIGHTING to hold onto the fantasy she has created, that the WW jusifies, rationalizes, and makes excuses to hang desperately onto the fantasy and live in it. And the whole time all her family's words, my words, her own logical (DW) observations, and withdrawal itself are slowly forcing her awake.

So when she is waking, I talk with her and engage her and reinforce that what she is starting to see is true, and when she gets foggy again I just back off and wait for it to pass. It seems to be working. Man, she is one confused girl right now.

Just a general question:

Is a NC letter for life really necessary when NC is in place? Isn't an NC letter more for the BS than the WS?

I think you're doing great, BTW. You're standing strong.

Yes, you're right that the "I'm doing what I can to save the marriage" response is robotic, but it's true no matter how many times you say it.

I personally would have lost it at some point and told her to stop the pitty party, grow up, take care of her kids, and pull herself together.

I don't know if that's a DJ, but I feel that a BS can and should say something like that once in a while.

But, I ended up divorced, so what do I know.

Humbled, follow Melody's advice on the D picture you need to paint for your WW if she ever brings it up.

Let her know you will not make it easy or painless. No such thing.

I'll keep following your thread, but am at a loss on what advice to give at this point since you are entering the first stages of recovery, have done a fantastic job to kill the A, and have your head on straight.

Seriously, you are a case that could end up in the MB hall of fame.

The problem with waywards is....words are cheap.

You want to look for actions that back that talk up. That's partly what things like the NC letter, etc, are for.

But for now, if I were you, I think I would just get a call in to Steve Harley ASAP. Let him work on her and then talk to him about where to go next. Just MHO.

The list from Sapphire is the direction I would want to be heading in if I were you...but let Steve help defog her and get her recommited to the M first.

BUT I was waiting(still waiting) to hear from YOU what you would need to stay in the M because you need to lose the "at all costs" attitude that you had during the A.

Hope you all feel better soon.

Hey Humbled - just checking in. You did a fantastic job with the exposure, and are handling the fallout very well. Stay firm.

I am also a little concerned like some of the other posters as to how easy WW has 'turned'. Be wary, my friend. I've gone through oh three maybe four false recoveries, so I know what to look for now. WWs tend to let you get close, then for some reason pull back away and go into withdrawal. You them have another conflict phase, and then things are good for a while.

I'd be very surprised if there isn't a relapse to some degree soon.

Just to reiterate - you're doing a fantastic job.

How is that GPS working out?

Hi All,

Back at work today. WW at home with kids - all are slowly recovering from bug we had. I think I'm going to answer all of your questions and get caught up and then I'll give you an update.

Done. I also told my wife in no uncertain terms that we will not discuss potentially painful futures with our kids unless they are actually in the process of happening. In one of my other posts I mentioned, my DD also helped with this one because she cried to my WW and asked her "please don't leave our house". That woke my selfish WW up real quick. That kind of talk has stopped now.

Done

Not yet, but I have taken the car with the carseats to work every day.

My list:

1. All the conditions Sapphire listed
2. MB program, of course.
3. Once we are into recovery and there is a re-commitment, she needs to go to individual counseling for her longstanding issues. Not negotiable.
4. She will need to step up and do equal work to repair and protect the marriage, meaning I need her to be as invested as I am in it.

Possible, and I am vigilant. Her relapses would be more likely to be her withdrawing into her fantasy in her head than anything, though - read on later, it appears the affair is dead from the OM's perspective and 95%+ dead from my WW's.

I'll explain the spare bedroom thing - read on. I would say she is not brushing the A off, but has she accepted the full gravity of what she did yet? Probably not.

Working on this, but question: the message has already been delivered LOUD AND CLEAR, in a way that I am very satisfied with. My WW expressed to OMW already (which OMW promptly told OM) that she is filled with remorse and does not want OM to ever contact her again and has no desire to ever contact OM again. It was worded strongly with mo cushy, lovey mixed messages. Is this sufficient? I am not balking here, just wondering if it needs to be reiterated in some formal letter when the message has already been sent to my satisfaction
In place.
Considering this, we will see.
Will do.
Not yet - this one is a sticker, but I will be firm and insistent until it is in place. I understand COMPLETELY that this shows her commitment is not where it should be yet. I have no intention of accepting this indefinitely. In the meantime, I have my intel.
Done. She even agrees this is a bad idea for her right now.

I am considering this.

FYI, I thought you'd all appreciate this. I spoke with MIL on the phone and she never offered to pay for my WW's divorce. Another lie.

Okay, questions:

1. Where do I start? The lies were so numerous! I'm not kidding, I could probably list off 100 that I know of - what do I do, sit and go down a list with the OMW? Not balking, just wondering. I have already told the OMW the blanket statement that my WW lied EXTENSIVELY to OM about many, many things during A. How granular do I get?
2. OMW seems to want to move forward and work on her M with OM now, and doesn't seem to want to take part in this exercise. How do I handle that?

Okay, I think that's everything, now a general update:

Hmmm...well, I see that she is in and out of the fog right now. She vacillates a lot, and I am getting better and better at spotting it. I understand it is very early on which is why my expectations are low.

My DW was always good at stepping back from herself and observing her own feelings/thoughts from a distance. One of the thing that scared me the most about my WW was that she completely lost the ability to do this - she was living IN her feelings from moment to moment and letting them rule her. Over the last few days, I have seen a change - she is finally observing herself again. She acknowledges her feelings and thoughts (wayward and darling), but seems to understand she shouldn't act on either of them yet.

Over the last few days she has become civil - no more AOs. She still "feels" like we are getting a D but she understands that she needs to go through withdrawal and that she may feel differently in the future, hence, she has agreed to not make any decisions or re-open D talk for at least 2 months (our DD is about to start school, etc.) She acknowledges that she still has days, times, and moments where she is angry at me for what I did but she knows she shouldn't be and is confused by this, so in those moments she just backs off a bit and waits for it to pass.

She also finally said she wants nothing to do with OM ever again and is finally understanding that he would have used and abused her for sex. She is also having a lot of troubling deep thoughts about herself and "what is wrong with her". She also realiezed yesterday that OM is dangerous for her and even is she were single she should never be in contact with him again - she recognizes it would just be her getting into another abusive relationship. Twice in the last two days she actually, in a meek way, "thanked" me for ending it. She called me her hero (???) but wouldn't say anymore.

As for her positive feelings for me, she seems confused by these too and moves in and out of them as well. Yesterday everyone was starting to feel better and it was the last day of the State Fair. Before I could even suggest it, she asked if we could go and take the kids and just have a family day. So we did. I dressed attractively, wore her favorite cologne, and was fun and my old self. As the day went on, she got closer and closer to me. Halfway through the day she was kissing me and hugging me and affectionate with me. She still seems confused about our future though, and now seems confused again about staying or going.

Last night we put the kids to bed and watched a movie together. She had been feeling very attracted to me (but conflicted) all evening but was expressing concern that she thought she was too conflicted and we should wait a while before being intimate again, if ever. That lasted about an hour and of course we fell into bed (it was very good for both). Mistake?

She cuddled with me before bed but then went into the guest room to sleep. This morning she was nice with me but was mad at herself for doing what she did - she says she is still very confused and doesn't feel like she should be doing that stuff with me if she is this conflicted about it.

I see two possibilities here:

1. She is still totally WW and is trying to manipulate me. I accept that this is a possibility, but I can't see to what end because she knows A is OVER on his side and is saying it is over on hers as well. She keeps saying, "I can't believe this day came. It's actually over." Sometimes she cries about it, sometimes she is angry at her realization of his real motives, and sometimes she just accepts it. Also, she just seems far more introspective than she has in MONTHS.

2. She is being honest - she is really confused right now and is starting to withdraw and come out of the fog, but keeps also being drawn back in. Her feelings for me are shifting rapidly between love and anger, attraction and distance and she is confused by this too. Like last night, after being intimate, she said something about how amazing it was and then said, "I hope I don't get weird about this now."

Help me make sense of this, because it affects how I relate to her. I have been believing #2 and therefore have taken opportunities I have been given to meet her ENs. Am I doing this right?

I would call her up and tell her it is important that her H understands that you wife lied about almost everything. Then just give a basic overview so she gets the point. After that, I would tell your wife that he has now been told that everything she said was a pack of lies.

The whole purpose of this exercise is to burn that bridge entirely so she knows there is no going back. It is also to teach her that you are not an ENABLER, you are a loving husband.

There are some things that worry me about your posts, Humbled. It doesn't sound like the commitment is there from your WW, and I think you're setting the bar too low.

A few observations:

You're balking at the NC letter, but your post states that your WW talked to OMW, not OM, to deliver the verbal NC statement. She needs to write a letter - not a phone call - to formally sever her ties to OM. The letter needs to be read and approved by you, and sent to OM by you. This is to be done as an act of commitment for YOU. To allow her to pass the message on via a phone call to OMW won't do. You've set the bar too low.

You say you have 20+ UA "in place" - that's not possible yet. What you mean is that you like the idea and you PLAN to accomplish 20+. Let us know how that goes. Remember, 20+, just you and her, undivided attention.

You are on the fence about counselling with the Harleys. Yet you're good with sending her for IC - be careful with that. Some IC counselors should never have been given a degree.

You're "going" to read HNHN. Great - let us know when both of you are done reading that. Have you gotten the book yet? Has your WW started reading yet? Order it from this website - they ship quickly. You'll have it within a day or two. Get going on this.

She is balking at transparency. A truly remorseful wayward typically will knock themselves out to give up their passwords and email accounts, etc. You need to invest in a keylogger. And a GPS. You can't take the car seats every time you leave the house. What if there is an emergency and she has to get the kids somewhere quickly? And remember - waywards are creative. Heck, if I were her this one would be easy! I'd just go to an inexpensive store and pick up a couple of seats and hide them.

At least she's agreed to avoid talking to other men. So far as you know.

You've set the bar too low.

Has she read HNHN? In this book, as well as in SAA, Dr. Harley does a fantastic job of explaining how affairs happen - even non physical affairs. My wife read this, and it helped her to understand how it happened and why it happened. Our MC also helped with this. The result is that she no longer felt like some kind of freak who got so emotionally messed up with a guy just through texting, a few phone calls, and FB messages. She hadn't seen the guy in over 40 years, but was in love! This was making her crazy. Once she figured out that she wasn't alone and there wasn't anything 'wrong with her' (other than poor boundaries and choices, of course) she felt like it was ok to start healing our relationship.

Hope this makes sense. Other FWWs can tell you more about that whole dynamic.

I agree. It is not yet.

We were already doing this before exposure, and we are starting to again. Undivided attention.

Will do.


Agreed, completely. And I already have a great KL.


Okay, understanding and agreeing with all of this. But I am confused - I thought the whole point was for her to go through withdrawal so she COULD recommit to the M? I admit fully and from reading my posts you should see - I DON'T have full commitment from her. She is still very confused. She still thinks we might D. I have no intention of walking into marital recovery like this! I just assumed she was going to go through withdrawal and continue getting tough love from her family and eventually, if the withdrawal broke her addiction and I continued to work Plan A, I would get the commitment everyone seems to be looking for now. What am I missing?

She knows you stood up for her and fought for your marriage. This is a good thing.



Heck no! You are doing just great, Humbled! Just keep this up for a couple more days and then it will be time to set her down and discuss a plan of recovery. I would start thinking about this now. Did you see my post about counseling with the Harleys or doing the online program? You don't have to recover your marriage that way, but it is the fastest horse.

And the way I would approach this is to set her down and tell her that you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness and keep you interested in the marriage if she will do certain things. Tell her you have no intention of enduring this pain again or in staying in a crippled, loveless marriage where she sleeps in the guest room and threatens divorce. What you want is a happy, romantic, fulfilled marriage for BOTH of you.

She needs to understand that it will not suffice that she just ended the affair. That is just the first step and you are not interested in the status quo. Waywards are very entitled and otherwise believe that you should just be grateful for their majestic presence. It is best to lovingly disabuse them of that notion early on.

I would outline the affair proofing and marital recovery steps as presented in this article:

Can't we Just Forgive and Forget?

I would start raising the bar NOW otherwise she will live down to your - lack of - expectations.

You are doing just great, my friend!

Humbled, I just don't want you to slide into a state of complacency and accept what's happening right now as your status quo. I don't want to see you accept your WW sleeping in the spare bedroom. I don't want you to accept R on your WW's terms. I fear you will have a FR in that case. Please make sure you've got a solid plan for R.

I have no intentions of that. Regardless of what my WW's fog-addled brain has said, we had a GREAT marriage in many ways. We used to have all each others' passwords, but we never needed to check them. We slept together. We didn't spend enough time together (that is being corrected). We had all the things you are recommending - I am not willing to downgrade my M, but upgrade it! I just need her to go through more withdrawal before I will see the commitment level I need.

Well, then - full speed ahead! You're on the right track!

Good! I thought it was the beginning of this kind of thinking but I didn't want to get my hopes up.


Whew! Thank you - I worried I had made a mistake. I will keep working on avoiding LBs and meeting whatever ENs she lets me for the remainder of the week and see how things go.

I am HEARING all of you - trust me I have no intentions of moving into recovery phase without these conditions being met! Meanwhile I am just trying to enjoy myself - I am enjoying the time I can spend with my wife and I am trying to enjoy the freedom I have when she needs alone time.

I will fill out the ENs questionnaire, buy the book and read it, and improve my Plan A from here.

Stay the course, Humbled, you're doing a great job.I sincerely wish I had taken the steps that you are and have already. Would have saved me some heartache!

You're getting great advise and support - we're glad you're here.

Hey, Humbled, we haven't heard from you in a few days - how's it going?

Just wondering how you are and how things are going. I hope that no news is good news.....please update us!

Hi All,

Quick update: We are still early on (1.5 weeks in). Withdrawal and Plan A seem to be going well, but I am no expert. I hope I am doing all this right. I want everyone to understand that I KNOW we are not in Recovery yet - she is still wayward in many respects, but she does seem to be getting LESS wayward every day. She still vacillates between reality and fog, and I can see it more clearly now. I have not agreed to just take her back without conditions - she knows what these are.

The bad:
1. Formal NC letter has not gone out. I will not stop pressing on this one.
2. WW still mentions divorce occasionally, but not in a threatening way anymore (more confused?).
3. WW still technically sleeps in the guest room.
4. WW still has a fake FB profile where she tries to lurk/spy on OM and OMW when I am at work but there has been no contact nor any attempt at contact. This one bothers me most but I can't reveal yet without revealing my KL. My DW has always been an obsessive person, so this behavior is not unusual for her, but I don't like that she is lying about it.

The good:
1. We are spending lots of UA time together.
2. She gave me her FB password and understands that I will check it.
3. I have ordered HNHN, SAA, and LBs and they should be here any day (any advice on which one to have her read first?).
4. I seem to be meeting her ENs better and no LBs. She is making a sincere effort to meet my ENs too and is doing a good job.
5. Some of her feelings for me seem to be slowly returning - she is very affectionate and we have been intimate 4 times this week. She seems much less conflicted about me. She is not withdrawing from me anymore, but getting closer by the day.
6. More and more remorse is slowly coming out. She knows now how wrong what she did is.
7. With the exception of her fake FB account, she is being radically honest with me. She has been very open about her withdrawal and has been honest with me when she is feeling compelled or tempted, and she has been insightful as to why. She turns to me when she is feeling lonely or tempted now.
6. She has been very introspective lately, and is talking a lot about what happened and admitting it has to do with HER issues, not the marriage. She is opening up about her childhood abuse and has agreed to go to IC/MC.
7. She understands she should not be in contact with ANY OM right now. I have phone and internet monitored and she is only talking with family and two female friends.
8. She slept in our marital bed last night - I am assuming this will be temporary and she may withdraw after this. The D talk has mostly stopped - she mostly talks about our future. But she said something weird the other day - she said that she was reluctant to move back into our bedroom because that would be like "admitting" she wasn't getting a D. Thoughts on this? It seemed to slip out and I don't think she realized she said it that way. Does she know deep down that the D talk was wayward?

Thoughts? I am very vigilant about a FR - I know what I want and need from her before I will take her back and go back to normal. That is not where we are in our house. Where we are is an open acknowledgment that she is in withdrawal and is not where she needs to be yet, but I am seeing progress in her getting there. She seems to come around to one more of my conditions every day or two. I am open to any feedback.

I am very concerned about the "bad" list you posted. That is a recipe for FR

You need to set some boundaries, but can you get in a call to Steve Harley first??? He is VERY good at getting waywards on board and breaking thru some of the fog...

I am very concerned about that list too. I have no intention of accepting it indefinitely.

I would suggest that you read SAA and get her to read SAA first. That is the best book to show the steps for recovery. Then I would get to HNHN and LB. Are you going to do the online course?

I haven't been in the recovery stage myself and have only read about it on here. I saw Neak tell someone newly into recovery that they should think of it as a FR until it is proved to not be one. I thought that made some sense.

This needs to be nipped, like, immediately. This should be treated as if it is CONTACT which resets the withdrawal clock back to DAY 1 each time she does it. It isn't because she is "obsessive", stop making excuses for her. It is because she is wayward and she thinks she can get away with it! and she won't stop until you establish some boundaries...

Again, it sounded like $$ wasn't an issue for you so I would get the call into Steve first before letting her know this isn't going to work...

Just repeating it. I was thinking the same things. Thanx SQ

I have told her in no uncertain terms that I know she can make a "fake" account and get around the blocks that have been set on both sides to lurk and spy on OM and OMW, and that this is unacceptable.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to bust her on this one without revealing my intel.

As long as she has contact with OM, even indirectly by viewing his FB page, you will be in FR. Why is she still on the internet, Humbled? I would remove access to that. She can talk to her relatives on the phone.

You've got to take away the crack pipe, Humbled. Get the computer out of the house. Tell her you're taking the computer to your tech guy because it's running slow, or appears to have malware you can't remove, or you want him to add more memory - come up with something to get the computer away from her.

Okay - I can do that.

Humbled, I would bring up the fact that you know she is looking at the OM's facebook page every day because of the computer history. Tell her that is disrespectful to you and it is impeding her recovery. I would get this out there NOW so you can get her off that crack pipe. Tell her that you are considering cancelling the internet service if she continues with this disrespect.

NOW.... you know she will punish you for few days for this, but that is ok. You know it won't last.

That will be a huge step towards recovery right there and I think things will fall into place much more quickly.

You are doing a fabulous job, Humbled, so just stick to the plan!

Block FACEBOOK!

Wheels did it and so can you!

Yes, Mel's advice is better. Just cut to the chase, Humbled. You won't be giving up your kl tool - as a matter of fact, physically taking the computer out could alert her faster. If she doesn't understand how easy it is to install a kl, she might think you're taking it somewhere to have one put on.

Here's a fact: I know of three ways to check the footprints of a computer user. You won't be blowing smoke if you tell her you know how to see where she's been. She may be diligent about going to her internet tools and erasing her history, but it's still going to show up in other places on the computer.

She doesn't need to know how you know. Just that you do and it needs to end. Or the computer goes.

Simple solution:

Tell her that you know that she�s still looking at his page using a fake account. When she asks how, you simply tell her that it�s easy to look at a browser history or look at cookies.

You don�t reveal your KL this way and you offer a simple explanation.

Humbled, you haven't been online for awhile and I'm worried about you - what's going on?

I'm bumping because I'm worried.

Do whatever it takes to stop her from FB.

Anybody see the article on Fox news recently about FB destroying marriages? The old ex boyfriend/gf factor. Makes it dangerous territory.

I would let her know about it, that you've been aware of her spying and then let her get mad. She sure will, but if she is not willing to do whatever it takes for a real recovery, no amount of kl or computer sleuthing will work.

Somehow she has to want to be transparent and stop the lookie lookie online.

Btw...she is able to FB b/c she is at home.

Should WW get a job, most likely her employer would not allow FB. This is something widespread now, and my employer bans FB for every computer (it's blocked as all social networking or dating sites) and even makes those accessing those types of sites via their smartphones subject to disciplinary action if caught.

I say she gets out of the house, finds something else to do during the day, and finds a way to end her online addiction.

Btw, I work at a huge huge hospital. I'd say most big companies are onboard with that sentiment of no FB or social networking or personal stuff (dating sites) when at work. Makes for a bad environment and foggy mind!

Is this still on the Fox website? I'd LOVE to see it.

Humbled, what gives?

How are you doing?

I suspect Humbled didn't take our advice and let his WW run the show. He gave her waaaay too much credit and trust.

Well, we'll find out when he's back here in 6 months

Wow - thanks for the votes of confidence...maybe we shouldn't assume people are failing just because they haven't posted? I've just been busy and haven't had a chance to post. Plus I'm actively working on things as suggested.

Things are going well. I had the conversations with her that you all recommended and was very firm about it. The conversation wasn't even hard. WW confessed to me about the alternate FB profile and the web searching and it has since stopped (I have a KL). She had two incidents after our conversation when she started to look but then logged off, and she confessed them to me before I even had to bring it up/verify. We talked about it - she seems to be being much more open and honest with me now, even about her struggles and failures. She also seems to be happy every time I help her shut a pathway off - she seems genuinely relieved. She says she doesn't like her addiction anymore and her brain is tired of obsessing. Aside from those slips, we are in week 4 of NC. There has also been NC from OM.

Currently reading SAA, HNHN, and Lovebusters. While the first two are obviously applicable to our current problem, the last one really hits home for us because of the problems we had before the A. It might be the one that ends up helping us the most.

Withdrawal has been typical, but WW's progress has been steady and fairly quick. She is still foggy sometimes, but she seems to be able to recognize when she is feeling that way and "ride it out" for lack of a better term. She seems to have accepted reality and knows that when she is foggy it is not something she should "go with" and live in but something she needs to work her way out of. Sometimes she will have a sad day, sometimes a a day where she is "jonesing" and will admit to me that she has an urge to contact even though she is committed to not doing so, and sometimes she has a crabby or angry day. But she seems to cope with them better now, keeps herself busy, talks with me honestly about how she is feeling, and apologizes for the crabby days or even the sad days where she misses OM and she feels bad that I have to see it. On the occasional angry day she will even admit the fogginess makes her think about leaving, but she seems committed to not listening to those thoughts. More and more she admits that it is not the OM she misses but the way she felt about herself during the A.

WW's affection and commitment and feelings towards me and the marriage are steadily returning. She called me her soulmate yesterday - that is the first time she has said that about me since the A. We spend lots of UA together - 15-20 hours per week, we go on dates, we show lots of affection and admiration, have much better conversations, and have been meeting each others SF needs nicely - it has even improved further since the A.

WW has moved back into our bedroom and added me back to FB, and has pretty much shut down her FB account to everyone but family and close current friends. She says she is staying for life and never leaving and she wants to work on us. She seems genuinely happy and excited about our future - not the schoolgirl in love happiness she exhibited during the affair, but more like a calm contentedness and happiness with her life. She is still mourning and withdrawing and is certainly not pretending to be "back to normal", but she says she realizes now that she is right where she is supposed to be - that I am her best friend, her soulmate, that she loves me, and that I make her happy, and that this is the life she wants, with me and the kids.

Right now we are just focusing on:
1. Continuing NC
2. Getting WW through withdrawal
3. Working on reconnecting and meeting each others' ENs

So, here are a couple of questions:

1. I know everyone said I should tell her it is not acceptable for her to talk to me about OM, but now that she wants to move towards recovery, she is needing help sorting out some feelings and really wants to be able to talk with me about them. Specifically, she wants to be able to truly "let go" of this OM and the A, but she is having trouble understanding how to process what happened. She always seems to be torn between:
A) Believing OM is a creep who was just out to use her for sex; or B) Believing they are two people who just got caught up in an affair and had real feelings but should have never done it because they are married and should have honored their vows.

She seems to understand the issues here - all evidence points to the fact that the truth is somewhere in between - he is a narcissistic cheating alcoholic OM, but I don't doubt that he developed feelings for her. After all, it's an EA, right? But how do I help her through his without "supporting" her fantasy? Her self-esteem needs to believe it was not entirely option A, but at the same times she knows it was not a fairy tale either - it was something that should never have happened. Help here from some FWWs?

2. We have EPs in place, she seems to be recovering well, and she has sworn to me that she is done with OM and wants to be with me for life. I am starting to believe her. But yet I can't stop feeling unsafe. I live in fear every day that OM will try to contact her at some point, even though I am starting to feel confident that she would tell me and rebuke him. Is this normal?

3. I am trying to keep the Giver in my forefront now, but sometimes I am still so hurt at things she said and did and don't know how to process them. Help here?

It's answer A. It is.

If he wasn't a creep he wouldn't have honed in on a married woman. If he wasn't a creep and was unhappy with his marriage he would have left and found someone else who WASN'T married.

He was a creep. He used her because he didn't have the courage to end a supposedly unhappy marriage.

Yes, they felt real feelings, based on a web of LIES. Yes, they should have honored their vows. But they didn't 'get caught up' in an affair. They CHOSE to commit adultery. Yes, it was a slippery slope of small choices, but at the end of the day she CHOSE to say and do the things she did. It wasn't an accident, it was a choice.

And he did just use her for sex. Because that's all he got out of it and when reality came crashing in he dropped her like a hot potato.

How is that not creep behavior?

Her self-esteem SHOULD take a hit. She has acted despicably. You have high self-esteem when your actions are worth esteeming. There is nothing admirable about having an affair.

He was a creep and so was she. The only way she can STOP being a creep is to ACKNOWLEDGE the wrongness of the behavior, stop trying to romanticize it or pretty it up in any way and ACCEPT that she did some very scummy and skanky things with a scummy and skanky guy.

Only then will she be able to CHANGE and let that behavior go and actually become a better person.

Oh, also another question for the FWWs out there:

My WW is having trouble with jealousy of the OMW. It's nowhere near what it was like during the A, when it was awful. But she can't understand why she feels jealous - my WW admits that she knows this OM is NO prize now, and that she doesn't even want to be the OMW - it's not that kind of envy.

It seems to be a self-esteem issue - she hates that OMW "beat" her? It makes her feel like OMW is better than her in every way. BTW, my WW KNOWS how insane these feelings are and that she has NO right to feel that way, and she fights them when they come up. She reminds herself that she wouldn't rather be in OMW's shoes, and that things are how they should be, but sometimes she still feels like she doesn't want the two of them to be happy together. She wants their marriage to fail and ours to succeed. She wants both the OM AND his wife to suffer.

Is this normal? She is being very open and honest with me about these feelings and she is certainly not catering to them, she is just confused by them and wants the feelings of jealousy to stop! She really doesn't enjoy feeling this way. How can I help her with this?

Thanks Vibrissa - to clarify, I used the language "caught up in". She has not been this forgiving with herself - she knows she chose to do what she did and she feels awful about it.

Humbled it sounds like your wife is still fogged out. It's to be expected. It will fade but only if she MAKES it fade. Her dwelling on thoughts of OM and OMW is CONTACT. She is reliving elements of the A in her mind.

Those two need to be dead to her. When she starts thinking of them she needs to shift her thoughts.

The feelings will stop when she stops dwelling on them, stops thinking of OM, stops triggering herself.

Whenever she thinks of OM or OMW she needs to do something else. Perhaps she can call you and you can reminisce about your courtship. She needs to retrain her brain to NOT dwell on thoughts of them. Then the feelings and thoughts will fade away.

Humbled,

I have no experience with recovery, but I simply wish to say that you�re doing great. Keep your chin up, be strong, and stay the course. You�re a pillar of strength she can turn to.

Do you think that the fact that it never went physical helps you in your own recovery? Just curious.

Humbled, it sounds like you are taking on, again, role of "enabler"...

While you are trying to be "supportive" by listening to your W's feelings/jealousy/etc of OM & OMW, you are actually feeding into the problem (ie, her obsessing over OM). You need to draw a boundary here.

It is a lovebuster for her to be talking to you about her feelings on the OM, period. Once all of your Qs have been answered about the A, it shouldn't be brought up anymore.

Absolutely yes. On the one hand, I understand now how a ONS could be less damaging than what I went through. On the other hand, I would much rather be dealing with what I am than a full-blown EA with PA.

Agreed - that is the point of my question. She is not dwelling in this - she wants the feelings to stop and is asking me to help her. She is not dwelling on them when they happen - they just keep popping into her head and she wants to know how to end that. So, distraction, distraction, distraction until she is through withdrawal. Am I understanding that correctly?

I admit I have enabled a lot in the past. But understand here - she is not romanticizing or talking about her "feelings for OM" like she used to. I stood firm on that issue and those talks have stopped completely. She is now simply telling me openly and honestly about the thoughts that are popping in her head and asking for help on how to stop them because she is NOT interested in dwelling in them anymore. She is asking for help and advice on her withdrawal, and her attitude is very focused on getting through this and recovering our marriage.

She is being radically honest with me and is finally being VERY considerate of my feelings - she is very aware of what is appropriate and what is not to say to me now and has been very good at not LBing me.

Mark's Managing Memories

This thread may help you and your wife navigate the random triggers that pop up in your wife's mind.

Thanks! I read through it and am excited about it - it goes along with everything I learned about memory in grad school. We will use that!

I would stop talking about this altogether. Your wife is not in any position right now to make any sense of this so talking about it now just keeps her triggered. The more this is discussed, the longer she stays triggered. She is still too fogged out to come to any understanding of the events. Wait until she sobers up and then she can easily come to a rational perspective of the affair.

I would mention to her, however, that any man that has an affair with a married woman has nothing but absolute disrespect for her. IF he respected her he wouldn't touch her with a 10' pole. And his true feelings for are reflected in the fact that he dumped her [censored] like yesterdays garbage when his wife found out. <----point all this out to her and then just end it by saying "I am sorry to see you treated like this." and then say no more.


yes, just be sure to NEVER rely on "trust" again. Rely instead on extraordinary precautions. Keep the keylogger on her computer and stick a VOA somewhere so you can watch your back.


With time and a GREAT MARRIAGE those feelings will fade. Resentment is overpowered with the good feelings of a great marriage. Just don't talk about them. Talking about them will keep them in the forefront.

Humbled, the more she talks about these inappropriate feelings, the more she feels them. Tell her to stop talking about it and focus on rebuilding her marriage.

by the way, you are doing a stupendous job at recovering your marriage.

Humbled, I KNOW that you love your wife. I KNOW that you want your wife to stop hurting. I am going to be pretty blunt right now. YOUR WIFE IS NOT BETTER THAN OMW. You see, affairees affair DOWN. That means that your WIFE is WORSE than OMW. You see how that happens right? Being a BW, I KNOW how much WORSE it is to be on THIS side of the fence. Your WW is absolutely still totally fogged up and not doing her side of the work yet. Have you been counseling with the Harleys while you have been away from here? I know we can be tough on Waywards here, but have you asked her if she would post so we can help her do her work?

Most men want to be able to fix things. THIS is something you CAN NOT do alone. You seem intelligent and eager to learn. Think of yourself as a newborn by MB standards. You need to learn how to crawl, walk and talk. It is going to take time. Others who are more knowledgeable are willing to help you and your wife, let them.

How long does it take, typically, for the fog to lift enough to make sense of things?


Good! That is EXACTLY how I have been responding and handling it.


Also good - that is what I've been doing. I'll stay the course.