It's answer A. It is.

If he wasn't a creep he wouldn't have honed in on a married woman. If he wasn't a creep and was unhappy with his marriage he would have left and found someone else who WASN'T married.

He was a creep. He used her because he didn't have the courage to end a supposedly unhappy marriage.

Yes, they felt real feelings, based on a web of LIES. Yes, they should have honored their vows. But they didn't 'get caught up' in an affair. They CHOSE to commit adultery. Yes, it was a slippery slope of small choices, but at the end of the day she CHOSE to say and do the things she did. It wasn't an accident, it was a choice.

And he did just use her for sex. Because that's all he got out of it and when reality came crashing in he dropped her like a hot potato.

How is that not creep behavior?

Her self-esteem SHOULD take a hit. She has acted despicably. You have high self-esteem when your actions are worth esteeming. There is nothing admirable about having an affair.

He was a creep and so was she. The only way she can STOP being a creep is to ACKNOWLEDGE the wrongness of the behavior, stop trying to romanticize it or pretty it up in any way and ACCEPT that she did some very scummy and skanky things with a scummy and skanky guy.

Only then will she be able to CHANGE and let that behavior go and actually become a better person.

Oh, also another question for the FWWs out there:

My WW is having trouble with jealousy of the OMW. It's nowhere near what it was like during the A, when it was awful. But she can't understand why she feels jealous - my WW admits that she knows this OM is NO prize now, and that she doesn't even want to be the OMW - it's not that kind of envy.

It seems to be a self-esteem issue - she hates that OMW "beat" her? It makes her feel like OMW is better than her in every way. BTW, my WW KNOWS how insane these feelings are and that she has NO right to feel that way, and she fights them when they come up. She reminds herself that she wouldn't rather be in OMW's shoes, and that things are how they should be, but sometimes she still feels like she doesn't want the two of them to be happy together. She wants their marriage to fail and ours to succeed. She wants both the OM AND his wife to suffer.

Is this normal? She is being very open and honest with me about these feelings and she is certainly not catering to them, she is just confused by them and wants the feelings of jealousy to stop! She really doesn't enjoy feeling this way. How can I help her with this?

Thanks Vibrissa - to clarify, I used the language "caught up in". She has not been this forgiving with herself - she knows she chose to do what she did and she feels awful about it.

Humbled it sounds like your wife is still fogged out. It's to be expected. It will fade but only if she MAKES it fade. Her dwelling on thoughts of OM and OMW is CONTACT. She is reliving elements of the A in her mind.

Those two need to be dead to her. When she starts thinking of them she needs to shift her thoughts.

The feelings will stop when she stops dwelling on them, stops thinking of OM, stops triggering herself.

Whenever she thinks of OM or OMW she needs to do something else. Perhaps she can call you and you can reminisce about your courtship. She needs to retrain her brain to NOT dwell on thoughts of them. Then the feelings and thoughts will fade away.

Humbled,

I have no experience with recovery, but I simply wish to say that you�re doing great. Keep your chin up, be strong, and stay the course. You�re a pillar of strength she can turn to.

Do you think that the fact that it never went physical helps you in your own recovery? Just curious.

Humbled, it sounds like you are taking on, again, role of "enabler"...

While you are trying to be "supportive" by listening to your W's feelings/jealousy/etc of OM & OMW, you are actually feeding into the problem (ie, her obsessing over OM). You need to draw a boundary here.

It is a lovebuster for her to be talking to you about her feelings on the OM, period. Once all of your Qs have been answered about the A, it shouldn't be brought up anymore.

Absolutely yes. On the one hand, I understand now how a ONS could be less damaging than what I went through. On the other hand, I would much rather be dealing with what I am than a full-blown EA with PA.

Agreed - that is the point of my question. She is not dwelling in this - she wants the feelings to stop and is asking me to help her. She is not dwelling on them when they happen - they just keep popping into her head and she wants to know how to end that. So, distraction, distraction, distraction until she is through withdrawal. Am I understanding that correctly?

I admit I have enabled a lot in the past. But understand here - she is not romanticizing or talking about her "feelings for OM" like she used to. I stood firm on that issue and those talks have stopped completely. She is now simply telling me openly and honestly about the thoughts that are popping in her head and asking for help on how to stop them because she is NOT interested in dwelling in them anymore. She is asking for help and advice on her withdrawal, and her attitude is very focused on getting through this and recovering our marriage.

She is being radically honest with me and is finally being VERY considerate of my feelings - she is very aware of what is appropriate and what is not to say to me now and has been very good at not LBing me.

Mark's Managing Memories

This thread may help you and your wife navigate the random triggers that pop up in your wife's mind.

Thanks! I read through it and am excited about it - it goes along with everything I learned about memory in grad school. We will use that!

I would stop talking about this altogether. Your wife is not in any position right now to make any sense of this so talking about it now just keeps her triggered. The more this is discussed, the longer she stays triggered. She is still too fogged out to come to any understanding of the events. Wait until she sobers up and then she can easily come to a rational perspective of the affair.

I would mention to her, however, that any man that has an affair with a married woman has nothing but absolute disrespect for her. IF he respected her he wouldn't touch her with a 10' pole. And his true feelings for are reflected in the fact that he dumped her [censored] like yesterdays garbage when his wife found out. <----point all this out to her and then just end it by saying "I am sorry to see you treated like this." and then say no more.


yes, just be sure to NEVER rely on "trust" again. Rely instead on extraordinary precautions. Keep the keylogger on her computer and stick a VOA somewhere so you can watch your back.


With time and a GREAT MARRIAGE those feelings will fade. Resentment is overpowered with the good feelings of a great marriage. Just don't talk about them. Talking about them will keep them in the forefront.

Humbled, the more she talks about these inappropriate feelings, the more she feels them. Tell her to stop talking about it and focus on rebuilding her marriage.

by the way, you are doing a stupendous job at recovering your marriage.

Humbled, I KNOW that you love your wife. I KNOW that you want your wife to stop hurting. I am going to be pretty blunt right now. YOUR WIFE IS NOT BETTER THAN OMW. You see, affairees affair DOWN. That means that your WIFE is WORSE than OMW. You see how that happens right? Being a BW, I KNOW how much WORSE it is to be on THIS side of the fence. Your WW is absolutely still totally fogged up and not doing her side of the work yet. Have you been counseling with the Harleys while you have been away from here? I know we can be tough on Waywards here, but have you asked her if she would post so we can help her do her work?

Most men want to be able to fix things. THIS is something you CAN NOT do alone. You seem intelligent and eager to learn. Think of yourself as a newborn by MB standards. You need to learn how to crawl, walk and talk. It is going to take time. Others who are more knowledgeable are willing to help you and your wife, let them.

How long does it take, typically, for the fog to lift enough to make sense of things?


Good! That is EXACTLY how I have been responding and handling it.


Also good - that is what I've been doing. I'll stay the course.

Will do, and thank you

Every one is different, but it is usually 6+ months. She is very much headed in the right direction because you are doing such a super job of leading her out of the fog.

Her emotions toward OM and his wife is a form of pining. She needs to retrain her way of thinking about them. One way to do this is to STOP TALKING about them. Talking about them is a form of contact. I appreciate that she's presenting it to you in such a way that it appears she is seeking help in erasing OM in her mind. But that is still a form of contact for her. I mean, seriously - what does she think you're going to do to magically make her jealousy go away? Nothing. Only time and her resolve will do that.

Let her know that the time for discussing these two other individuals is over. They have their lives to rebuild and the two of you have yours.

Two quick thoughts as a FWW. I can relate to the competitveness with OM's wife. Prior to being an actual wayward, I had this tendency to convince others that I was right/better. I wanted to be the only one who truly understood said person. It didn't even have to be a man. This applied to ex boyfriends, friends and family members. I was always worried about how I appeared to others and wanted to make a good impression. The funny thing is that after the affair, I am free of this need. Maybe because there is no way I can put myself up on that pedestool after what I did. Also because I realized that everyone will have there own perceptions based on half information and there really is no way to conteract that. It is so freeing. I stopped all the spinning and lying and just state the truth...even if it makes me look bad. I consider myself a work in progress. Your wife isn't there yet but it sounds as if she will be.

The second thing is perhaps this fighting the affair together is making her feel bonded with you. Working together to solve a problem is great for the team approach to marriage. Unfortunately, it is probably tearing you up inside and she needs to know that so that you can take a team approach to easing your pain.

Eventually she will realize that it doesn't matter what he thinks about her, or what others think about her as long as she is now DOING the right things. In her heart she will know this and she should feel good about herself.

My DH just had a significant birthday and I threw him a party. This involved contacting his friends and their wives who haven't exactly been friendly since my A (understandably). The old me would have worried what they thought...if I was being too brazen, or if the party wasn't a good enough gesture, if I spent too much, too little, didn't dress right etc. Instead I did what I thought my husband would like for his special day and I feel good about it. She will get there when she is truly trying to please you because she loves you.

Good luck in your recovery.

Hi All,

I just wanted to pop back in and say thank you for helping me through the worst time in my life. My FWW and I are doing very well now - NC for 8 months now and just like many of you stated, it was really 6+ months before things started really getting better and she truly started coming out of the fog. We still have roadbumps here and there, but WOW - so much easier being in recovery with a sane person and having my DW back to work on this M with! You weren't kidding when you all said it was a rollercoaster even after the A ended - the first 6 months were rough at times

Thank you, thank you, thank you! Especially the vets who helped me out. I look back at my posts and can't believe how fogged out she was, and can't believe even more how fogged out I was!