Background---Together for 2.5 years. It has been rocky. I have never been physically abusive or called her names. She is very hard on herself and has had self-esteem issues. I did not do a good job to build it up. I made a mistake 1 year ago, by chatting online with an old girlfriend. I wasnt sure why but...she found out and the trust was gone. This was after I asked her to marry me. She always thinks I am doing this again...because I do spend a lot of time on the Internet for work.

When I get upset with her, I have said maybe you need to find a new place etc. I made her leave July 28th and she got a home just down the street from me. We then continued to see each other...but never really addressed the issues. I am a poor communicator and say dumb things when I get upset. I want to work on this but don't know how.

I have broken her heart many times, but she has stayed with me and seemed to still want to try.

She is incredible and I took her for granted.

We were intimate 3 weeks ago...and she wanted to work on it still. Then last week I said something stupid and she sent me the 'it's over, I can't do this anymore'. I talked to her and found out she has been dating a guy. She told me in an emailt hat they have dated 3x and he is sweet and a gentleman...and treats her well. I guess he wants a chance with her but she told me that she told him that she just wants to be friends as she is not ready for a relationship. She told me she started dating him after we were intimate.

We have both been wrecks. She told me not to email or call her. Then she emailed (of course I emailed alot..and was honest and poured my heart out). Evidentally it is too late. I did say in one...'tell me you dont love me in an email and I will stop pursuing'. The email never came. She said she was confused and give her space etc. I then made a mistake and sent her flowers at work. WOW...she was upset! She said she bawled at work and that they were beautiful, but wished they had come sooner...and meant more. She stated she appreciates my openess and honesty this last 4 days....and needed it earlier in the relationship. She said she has never had a guy do and say so many wonerful things this last 4 days. I asked her to go to counseling but she stated: 'I don't want to because the one thing u are not offering me is what I've been asking for over and over again, please let me have my space so I can think and relax and stop worrying! Please! You love me and want what's best for me but u are ripping me apart every hour of the day!'

The email today stated: I have been reading through your emails from last night because I decided it was best for me to turn off my phone for the evening. I want to clear something up that you mentioned in a previous email because your feelings and opinion of me are important to me... I did not go on a date before we were intimate for the last time, the first time I went out with him was almost 2 weeks later. I am telling you this because I never want you to feel betrayed or in the dark like I did at one time. It hurt too much and I wouldn't wish it on you at any point because even though I know you don't believe it, I do care very much for you and hate that you are hurting. I do plan on calling you soon because I don't care how angry you get or how much you say we can't be friends, I don't believe that's true and eventually I would like to be able to talk and be in each other's lives when we both know we can handle it. Thank you for agreeing to give me time and space. I think it's what you need too. This has consumed us both and we need to let go.

I do hope you are feeling better and have been able to sleep. It hasn't been easy for me to do either lately. I will call you in a few days if that's ok and you still want me to. If not, I will understand and respect your decision.

I replied:
That sounds fine. Give me a call if you want to and when you feel comfortable.

I have not emailed her, like I have been doing. I know I need to give jer time. I also think there is a SLIVER of love still left in her for me...I just know the type of person she is.

I know there is info missing...and I can elaborate more....but can someone tell me what she is saying and what I should do. Some say act happy ...dont contact her....and let her see changes...and if I please/beg and pursue it will hurt. I just wanted her to know I wanted to fight for her...because I was an idiot and DO LOVE her...and willing to make the changes I was unwilling and didnt see before.

Advise...PLEASE!?!?!?
Alan

When she calls--- how should I act? What if she brings up that guy? She is a very jealous type and if I was to say I am dating, it would affect her...so dont want to go that route. She is very emotional right now...and I know I have pushed her away...but IF I do the right things she may be curious as to 'changes'. She is divorced (as am I) and never ever wanted to stay with her ex or even remain a friend...so with her coming back and 'wanting' to be friends and see each other tells me she is heartbroken and looking for support. There is unfinished business etc. My only concern is in her condition she is dating and this guy seems good for her...so she may be heading back to a relationship already. If she does this because of her vulnerability--then my chances are shut down or do I just wish her well and promote the guy and let her know I am here for her? We were best friends at one time..and she has said that over and over again. I did sign up for a counseling session and boaught some books. I have poured out so much to her the last 5 days it is unbelievable...and she appreciated it and asked why now? I said sometimes it takes something drastic to trigger...but hopefully it isn't too late.

What should I do or how do I act if she calls...and what if she wants to see each other? She may just feel guilty how it ended and that she is/was seeing someone. Remember-she emailed me the 'end'.

Just a couple questions Nebraska. And welcome to MB! You've come to a good place to get a different perspective on your current relationship and possibly help you navigate future relationships (hopefully with your ex-fiance but you can only control yourself, 66).

I hope you've availed yourself to the wealth of information from this site. You said you have bought some books. Which books? Are you familiar with Dr. Harley's approach to marriage? Have you heard of a book called "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend? (It's the one I'm working on right now). Quite frankly I think you and your ex-fiance could both use some work on your boundaries.

How long was your first marriage? How old are you and your ex-fiance? And how did your marriages break up? i.e. was there infidelity involved?

~optimism

Let me try to address a couple of things here from a MB perspective, as I understand it. Keep in mind I'm relatively new to all this but a couple of things jump out at me.

Background---Together for 2.5 years. It has been rocky. I have never been physically abusive or called her names. She is very hard on herself and has had self-esteem issues. I did not do a good job to build it up. I made a mistake 1 year ago, by chatting online with an old girlfriend. I wasnt sure why but...she found out and the trust was gone. This was after I asked her to marry me. She always thinks I am doing this again...because I do spend a lot of time on the Internet for work.
So you're engaged and you're chatting with an old GF? I believe MB considers engagement as a training ground for marriage. You failed the test. You let her know you couldn't even be trusted in engagement, why would she marry you? Deal breaker, my friend, deal breaker. Set some boundaries next time: engaged=no good can come of talking to an old GF.

"making her leave, and getting "upset" with her are probably (it's hard to tell from your report) Angry Outbursts and Disrespectful Judgements. Get rid of them too, or you'll never have a spouse who feels safe around you. By the way, does that mean you were living together prior to being married? Do you know that is a terrible prognosticator for a successful marriage? There are articles on this site if you don't think so.

You probably don't deserve another chance, but if you're lucky enough to get one, I hope you're prepared with things you learn on this site and from some serious introspection and behavior modification. You need an overhaul on your understanding of how relationships/marriages work.

Neither of you have boundaries in place right now. It's causing a bunch of confusion that shouldn't be there.

You've done a good job using your words and wallet to confuse her and "rip her apart." Read a few threads here and you'll see that words mean nothing in these parts. Actions count. How about building a better Nebraska66 and stop trying to control your ex? Focus on 66, figure out what's really important to you. Learn about fidelity and protecting a marriage. Rid your life of some bad habits. Leave her alone to try to recover from the chaos. If it was meant to be with you two, it will happen without all kinds of sappy love letters and 1800flowers.

Obviously she cares for you. Use that as motivation to decide what you can do on your end to eventually present to her someone you think she can respect and adore.

I replied:
That sounds fine. Give me a call if you want to and when you feel comfortable.

I have not emailed her, like I have been doing. I know I need to give jer time. I also think there is a SLIVER of love still left in her for me...I just know the type of person she is.

That's the spirit! Now get reading and don't rush this. These concepts are very difficult Alan and it takes time to really get a grasp on how to implement the real changes you want to make. I can tell from experience: implementing these approaches in your life and in your relationships will be beneficial in many ways.
And I don't mean to be harsh with you Alan, I know you're hurting. But the AO's and DJ's and IB's (look them up in basic concepts) played a huge role in the demise of my marriage. I wish someone would have dope-slapped me about 15 years ago.


Trying.
~opt

Thank you for the advise. I will use it. I wrote a 5 page letter to her, but chose not to send it and just use it to vent myself.

I have not contacted her as she requested (which has probably shocked her). I realize I cannot influence anything and it is her life and up to her what she wants to do. Either way, I have to make changes in myself.

I was married for 7 years and divorced for 6 more before I met this one. Two daughter's ages 10 and 17. I never cheated on my first wife--but she did on me. I am 44 and this ex is 30 and she had been married before.

I do agree that living together was the wrong thing to do and I will never do that again.

Here are emails she sent me on Monday:
Alan I will always love you and I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I just don't think I am "in love" with you the way I was before and I think it's because when I was soooo head over heals, it wasn't returned. It broke me and the harshness of what has happened pushed me into trying to move on and I think
I'm ready to do that. I don't mean WITH anyone, I mean as a person. I need to work on myself. Yes, there's a very nice guy who has feelings for me but I'm not ready to replace what we had or jump into a serious relationship and he knows
that. I appreciate everything you have clarified and your honesty over the past few days more than you will ever know. It has been hard to hear at times and in some cases reminded me of terrible things I didn't want to remember but I needed
to hear everything from you and I'm so glad you enough respect to tell me certain things. I'm sorry that our timing is wrong. Seems like it always is ... I think eventually we should talk, I know I would like that a lot but I
don't think right now it would be good for either of us. I'm so sorry you are hurting and that I have caused this hurt.

Also:
I don't know what to do. I've asked you so many times to please respect me and give me space so I can think everything over but I can't with it in my face all the time. It is and has pushed me away and made me into a mess no one wants to
be around. Now all I feel is guilt. Terrible that you spent your hard earned money on me, terrible that sophie is upset, terrible that you are upset when I hear it in your voice or pouring through your emails. I feel so awful. I feel
like I am a bad person because I can't jump right back in this and try hard again right now. I tried so hard for sooo long and was hurt so many times. I want you to understand, just how you are reflecting and thinking about things you did wrong and the things you did right... I have beendoing the same thing
during our time apart. You are saying all the right things now and the things I wanted you to say for 2 and a half years but I can't forget the 2 and a half that you didn't say or feel this way and when you treated me like I meant nothing and then the way you treated me when things went downhill. It hurt me so bad.


I don't want to punish you or hurt you for anything. I want you to realize these things and make changes so you can fall in love and have a life with a wonderful person, I just don't think that I'm that person and I am truly sorry for that. I
never want to make you sad or have you hurt... it's so hard for me to see you like this. I care so much and always will. I just wish I could breathe for awhile! I can't think, sleep, eat... I am miserable and constantly stressed. I can't concentrate on work. I know I'm an awful person and will go down in history as a cold hearted [censored] because no one has ever shown me more of an effort than you have in the last few days but I just can't get there. I can't feel the same way right now. There's too much pain. I'm so so sorry from the
bottom of my heart.

I emailed her today as 'stupid me' sent her a card in the mail last Monday. I thought best to tell her and just tell her to toss it. She replied back with: Are you sure you don't want me to read it? I won't if that is what you want.
I replied: There is no need to at this point.
She never responded to that one.
I have decided to work on me and let her do her thing. Her friends are on my FB and were when we split. I know in the past, when things were bad...she had them check my FB page. I have been posting very happy thoughts...and posting about how I am working on myself to make ME better! She knows I love her and care, but I need to move on to keep my sanity.

I went to Borders and bought 3 books: The 5 Love Languages by Gary Chapman, His Needs, Her Needs, and Boundaries of Marriage by Cloud & Townsend.

All 3 look like they are full of helpful info to get me back on track....so when the day comes I can date again, I will be a better person.

I know you don't want to hear this but:
I really think you're going to have to minimize or eliminate contact at some point in order to move on and really concentrate your efforts on understanding how you can become better marriage material in the future (that's my goal too so you're not alone). At least get rid of the FB, it's just a tempting connection to her.

Those are 3 very good choices for books. Lots of folks on these boards mention them (especially HNHN for obvious reasons). I don't know about the "boundaries for marriages" or how much different the original "Boundaries" is, but you may consider reading both for comparison.


Now, above you mentioned your ex is looking for "space." I don't know what that means in the dating world (my divorce is final tomorrow and I haven't dated in 20 years). But in the marriage world it means "I need you to leave me alone so I can develop my relationship with other man without interference." Also she said "I love you but I'm not in love with you.....blah, blah, blah." In the marriage world that means "I'm having an affair." Again, I am only surmising that in the dating world she's telling you she's into the other guy. I really think you're doing the right thing to take this opportunity to really separate and let her live - and you too.
Just to restate: reading a few books will give you the understanding and maybe even the lingo. Really grasping the ideas and feeling comfortable having them be part of your character takes time and effort and consistency. Remember: behaviors repeated create habits. habits repeated create character. It's a magic formula that I started adhering to when I started all this about a year ago and it has helped.

Last thing: Not that anyone here minds, Neb. But I think this is more of a "Dating" thread than a "Divorced" thread. Or maybe even a MB 101 thread. Consider moving it to either - you'll have to click on something (notify, I think) and ask the moderators to move it. You might get folks who are more in the same boat.

I feel for you, 66. I know you're going through a tough time. I know this woman means/meant a lot to you. You've come to a good place at this juncture in your life. You've identified that there are areas you'd like to improve in. If you're like me you always knew it but never had a good road map. I found a pretty good guide here. I can't implement all the concepts b/c I'm not married anymore, but many of the ideas (like eliminating LB's/AO's, DJ's,) can be applied to all relationships.

Good luck in your quest.

Opt

By the way, you'll read in Cloud and Townsend that the following is an example of a boundary issue.


With strong boundaries she would never feel guilty enforcing them.
You hurt her, she doesn't need to feel guilty about protecting herself. Hello.
Okay, just pointing that out. You both have work to do in this area. Part of the reason you're able to tear each other apart emotionally.
[This is just my understanding of the ideas - take it for what it's worth. I'm no shrink]
HOWEVER: don't discuss this with her it will not help. Just recognize it and move on. You're working on Nebraska. Period.

Opt

Thanks!

A few things have happened. First I went to a counseling session. Second, I went to Borders and bought the books. I spent last night reading. While in Borders I ran in to her best friend and we chatted--I DID Not talk about my ex...and was nice. She SAW the books I was buying--so am sure it went to my ex.

Sunday when I was emotionally a mess-- I sent her a card in the mail with a letter (dumb--and before I cut off contact).

I emailed her yesterday and told her of the card and to just please don't open it and throw it away.

When I came to work this morning...and she had night to think, she sent an email;) Here it is (ps...dude and buddy were pet names):

Hi,

I couldn't help but open the card and read the letter last night. I know you said it doesn't mean anything now but I want to tell you it didn't upset or hurt me. It was beautiful and thoughtful and I appreciate so much how honest you have been with me over the last couple of weeks. I think you have answered many of the questions as to why certain things happened or why I felt certain ways during the relationship and it's helped me a lot. I'm not going to remember the bad things/times but think about the great things we did together and the fun we had while we were together and the love we did share for one another. The letter helped me realize you did love me as much as I loved you and it feels good to know that.

I'm sorry for all of this and I hope you are feeling ok now. I wanted to call you last night just to talk but I thought space was probably better for both us right now so I didn't. I really miss being able to talk to you as my best friend. I hope some day we can try to have a friendship again. If not, I understand but I'm always going to be here for you if you ever need me.

I hope this email doesn't make you mad or upset you in any way. I no longer want to be the cause of pain for you or anyone else either.

Bye dude

My email back after 6 hours:
Hi!

I'm not mad at you for opening it. I'm glad it didn't upset you. Please feel free to call me anytime you fell like it.

Talk soon dude;)


Am I doing the right thing?
Also...do I want to be 'friends'? I heard this isn't good at all...and make her choose or walk away.

Well, my ex found out that I found out she had been having sleepovers with the man she has been dating.

she called me and wanted to meet. This is first contact in 10 days. I agreed to meet at the coffee shop.

I was very happy to see her and very pleasant. I know she wanted to convince me that she wasn't sleeping with him etc, because she doesn't a. want to look bad in my eyes and b. me to have a conflict with the guy. I told her there was nothing to worry about. We had a nice talk about past issues--she wanted that. She was crying and telling me she still loves me etc. I went over some things I learned in counseling and the books I am reading.....she was visibly impressed.

I walked her to her car....and she kissed and hugged me. I knew it was the finality she wanted and I wished her well. I did tell her, there is no way I can continue to be friends...I just can't do it. She understood.

She texted me later and said 'you'll be happy to know that he doesn't want to date me anymore, because of my baggage'. I told her I was sorry to hear that and there are betetr men than him.

We were in a 2.5 year relationship....engaged, went through a mother's death..and she starts seeing him immediately when we split....BAGGAGE?? REALLY...you think??? Now blame on me, since he accomplished his goal with her.

Anyway, she texted again later...after that and asked if she could bring me my watch and other things I had at her house. I told her to let me know later in the week to arrange.

What do I do now? I love her...and know she loves me but she said she just can't come back because she doesn't want to hurt anymore or hurt me.

I don't plan on contacting her again. trying boundaries...she's gone through alot. What do I say when she drops off the watch? We have a puppy together, but I kept (she wanted it that way) and she hasn't seen her in 2-3 weeks. I want to get along....but confused if I back off or pursue etc.

????

Neb, I still think this would be a good thread for the "dating" board. I noticed you have something over there also. That's cross-posting and makes for some confusion (for you and folks trying to help). You may consider combining the threads.

For now, it sounds like you're catching on, and I congratulate you for doing the reading and trying to apply the principles.

Good for you! It seems like you, at the very least, need some time ....alone.... to retrospect and introspect and all that to get a handle on how you want your next relationship to go (even if it's with that one).
Warning though: I doubt she "understood." Watch out, it's going to be VERY HARD to enforce boundaries with her. She's not going to like it one bit, and since you still have feelings for her, you'll cave. You fulfill something in her that she really needs to fulfill herself, I think. Until she can figure that out, she'll keep coming up with excuses to contact you and give you back watches. I sense in her the same "something missing" that my ex had and still has - trust me you're doing good to not get into a 15 year marriage of shoveling sand against that tide.

I don't really have any advice, 66. I'm really glad you're checking out some good reading material. I think you need time to consider those things and comprehend and put some different guidelines in your life. I just hope you don't let her derail that effort - not that she would do so on purpose, but you're clearly on a different wavelength now. KWIM?

good luck, Nebraska.

Opt

Ok, update: We have had no contact for 4 weeks. She stated she would never speak to me again. She has been dating a guy for 1.5 months now.

Last weekend she contacted me about my daughter. We talked for 2 hours ont he phone. She evidentally saw me out on a date with someone and she mentioned it. She said it was hard to see. We had a nice talk.

She then started emailing. We emailed back and forth. She then wanted to come over and pick some things up at my house. It was things she could have picked up without me there. We talked for two hours outside. She cried...and was mad that I am better now...but wasnt this way during the relationship. She said her boyfriend is 'nice and fun'.

The next morning the texting and emailing continued. She then texted to call her as she wanted to have phone sex and talk to me. Unfortunately I gave in. She then regretted it.

We continued to talk/text/email like old times. BUT I realized I had to take a stand, as she told me she still has strong feelings toward me....but was confused and scared...yet had feelings for the BF and doesnt want to hurt him.

Last night I called her and told her if she doesnt choose me or him, then i am out and won't talk to her again. She said she wants me to be part of her life because we have so mush history...but realizes she cannot offer me that right now, because of issues we had. I told her understand and that I will always care...and good luck. So i am sure she is done...she cried...said she needs to break up with BF because she cheated on him etc.....so confused.

What do i do now? Just wait? I am working on myself and she said she noticed that;)

What do you do now? RUN. RUN FAST!

Her actions were totally unfair to the man she's dating now as well as you. She too emotionally immature to realize that. She's bad news.

I think you are very right. It appears to be the same answer from everyone I know. She is all over the place emotionally and refuses to get help. I feel so badly for her. Her life now is filled with emotional demons. She 'needs' a man....and wants to just go out every night and drink drink drink. I care about her...worry about her...but guess I need to detach and find someone more emotionally mature.

You opened yourself up for more abuse.

Gg is, as usual, absolutely correct.
Stated another way (maybe from a more male perspective), she's in no state of mind to be a one-man woman right now, from the looks of it. Oh, she'll "choose" you, for sure. But with boundaries like those, it won't be long before she's having to "choose" again, cause guess what? she's giving him the same song-and-dance, baby.

That's how I see it, Neb.