what is the breakdown of clients? Probably similar to the forum here, about 10 to 1 women to men.

I'd be shocked If 65 percent of BH avoided divorce. I'd be shocked if 6.5 percent of BH sucessfully avoided divivorce.

My Mom left my dad and moved in with her OM. I did not know about MB at the time. My Dad got his "wake up" and decided he would try to win my Mom back. Well, nearly 2 years later, she came home. They still aren't using MB, but I would gather that they would be much better off if they did. THAT is MY experience with a WW. It's only ONE, but it MOST DEFINITELY shows that it is not IMPOSSIBLE.

I believe it is possible that two people can get married, settle in, and let things get...boring. I believe affairs can happen in these situations. I believe that a WS can wake up after exposure and realize that what they have is important to them and that they want to save it. I believe that they often don't know how.
That's why I believe we need to presume this scenario before we tell them to leave the M.

again, I said nearly impossible and citing anecdotes of atypical results does't chane tge typical outcome.

Boarding my plane enjoy

But it is not the pre-affair attitude that leads to recovery. Its what happens AFTER the affair ends that counts.

Just because a wife checked out of the marriage before the affair doesn't mean she can't check back IN. I have seen hundreds of such recovered marriages on this forum myself over the years. We have several such marriages that are currently posting. [several are WW's themselves who came here looking for help]

Dr Harley has never said that these affairs are impossible to recover from. It is not impossible at all.

I would say its more like 50 - 50 on the forum. We seem to have a ton of wayward wives lately who come seeking help for their marriages.


I have no idea what the statistics are when broken down by the gender of the cheater. But anecdotally, I know that a BH has as much chance of recovery as a BW based on my experience on this forum..

I will tell you something else I have observed, EE. Men who don't recover their marriages after an affair tend to be very cynical and disbelieving about the odds of marital recovery for others. They naturally paint reality with their own bad experience and tend to see things in a very negative, unrealistic light. And this applies to men who stay married in terrible marriages. Very cynical...

But even those that fail...GENERALLY, don't regret trying. They may have regrets or even lost more custody, money, etc. in the ensuing divorce...but GENERALLY, they FEEL better about themselves for having made the effort.

There is honor in seeking recovery.

For most, there is self-respect gained in seeking recovery.

AND...

They just might save their marriage regardless of the percentages that NO ONE can predict at the outset.

I saved my wife from the clutches of an entrenched seemingly insurmountable adulterous affair and, in the end...WE saved our marriage.

regardless of your anecedote...it happens.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I have spoken on the phone over the years with BH's that ended up divorced and not one of them, yet...has regretted their MB efforts even when they lost A LOT in the eventual divorce.

EE, I don't intend on going around and around this again with you. My points are still valid that there is NO HARD EVIDENCE from DrH that states that a WW will NEVER come back. We have seen it over and over again(and I haven't even been here a year yet). I even mentioned that I often found it interesting that DrH used a WW as the example in SAA. Even while I was reading SAA for the first time, I thought, "Huh, he used an example of a woman in a PA and a man in an EA when in my RL experiences, I would have seen the opposite. I wonder why he did that?" I then come on here and see that there are not really gender specifics other than the amount of time spent in plan A.

It was mentioned previously that it could be the BS's gender that more directly affects our view on this board. In a more general way, BHs tend not to be looking for a way to save their marriage on a website about MB(a pure generalization, there are MANY men posting on this site and to this very thread who go against this). They may even try to go it alone(as in the case of my father). Whereas many women discuss ways to fix things in their lives and a website such as this would be an extension of the support they have IRL. Who knows? Well, DrH is the only one that could tell us for sure which way his numbers weigh.

In my experience however, I don't see any advice from DrH that says, "If you are a BH, give up, it's over." I think it's worth a try no matter what gender you are. JMHO

It's a little off topic, but I have to say I am very thankful that DH didn't decide I was a lost cause.

I think that's about as 'on topic' as you can get.

So far, you are not going around and around with me. I never said never. I said it was so rare (nearly impossible were my exact words) that to me, it's not worth pursuing.

So if you want to take exception with me, then please, you and the others read and understand what I'm saying and don't distort it to mean something I never said.
Could be any number of reasons. Why does Dr H tell guys in the letters about their wives leaving that it may be too late? Because he knows there is a time where it's too late to entice the wayward wife back.

Likewise, my anecdote is just as valuable as yours. I've seen dozens of men, good men, betrayed and their wives never looked back, just like my ex wife.

So we can trade anecdotes, or we can see if we can find real numbers.

I'd like to hear from Dr H of how many who come to him to win back a wayward wife, what percentage successfully marriage build?

Anything else is speculation, no matter which side of the issue one sits.

The thing is, I have the experience. Maybe I'm cynical, but remember, I'm the one who actually spent my money with Steve Harley, and while I agree it's a great program to build a marriage, and it's how marriages should be run, I would not tell someone to try to win back a wayward wife.

I wouldn't talk them out of it either. I'm answering as if someone asked me, "If you were in my shoes, what would you do?"

I don't pretend to know it all, or to know the best answer.

If a friend came to me and wanted my advice on how to win back his wayward wife, I'd point him here and tell him it's a tough journey.

But if he asked me what would I do, I'd tell him I'd cut her from the team.

It depends on how the quesiton is asked. If I'm not asked for my advice on how to proceed, then I'm not going to tell someone what to do. They have to decide.

For me, having experience on wayward wife who never once joined a call with Steve Harley, I wouldn't waste my time on another wayward wife, period.

I think I have good reason to be cynical. After all, my church blamed me for my wife's affair and wouldn't approach her.

The courts don't care. If a wife cheats, it doesn't impact custody or property settlement.

I have my own personal experience, as well as that of some friends, and it's universally the same, once she's gone, she's gone.

So yeah, I'm cynical for good reason. The cynicism isn't against Dr H's program, it's against people.

I've lived too long and been betrayed and abandoned by too many folks throughout the course of my life to trust many or be willing to trust again if that trust is betrayed.

I understand you have reason to be cynical but you don't have reason to paint everyone else's experience with a broad brush to match yours. There are many, many recovered former wayward wives on this forum - now and over the years - who recovered their marriages, so it can't be said it is impossible or universally the same as your experience. Its not the same.

I agree it is speculation. You have personal experience that leans one way, but those of us on this board have evidence that using this program can be effective. Not a guarantee but obviously enough to negate your claim that it is "impossible." There are too recovered marriages here to support such a label.

You can email Dr Harley and ask him at: jharley@marriagebuilders.com

EE,

I guess we must be an anomaly since when confronted my wife said she was sure she wanted a divorce.

Now she helps me teach this stuff to other couples.

You're right that many women have already checked out of the marriage before beginning an affair, but that doesn't preclude changing her mind. Most women are serial monogamists, but they can go back as testified to by the number of affairs we see around here with past boyfriends. Most haven't really chosen to end the marriage prior to meeting their new love, simply decided to give up investing in it. The less they invest, the less they feel they are losing until they care not one bit what happens to the marriage.

In a case where the WW has checked out the first milestone for the BH is to have her become unsure of what she wants to do. If she is conflicted about leaving, he's already ahead of where he began in most cases.

Those women who are just "fooling around" or not really intending to end the marriage (not an exit affair) are often persuaded by simple confrontation. Those who have fallen in love by accident are harder to win back but still doable with a clear plan of action.

Those who decided the marriage was over BEFORE even looking for a new man and now having found him are harder, but not impossible and I would guess that even some of those return home when the affair comes to a thunderous end.

Which is why Plan B follows Plan A with its waiting period to give the affair enough time to implode or become an anomaly or outlier.

*I* was once a newbie.....I came here AFTER reading SAA (a very important step in fighting infidelity....it is the instruction manual, after all... ) .

The reason I joined was seeing everyone else's experiences. I saw I wasn't unique, my feelings weren't unusual, and that many were in the same boat as I. Even more important, I would come to learn, was there were others more "experienced" in following the "Plans" who could help guide me on my own journey. Even better was the fact that their journey's were in these very pages. While Dr. H's methods and PLANS are the pathway, it does no good to discount peoples experiences following them. This is, after all, what you find on these boards.

Not everyone has had the desired results following those PLANS and that's okay too. Even Dr. H doesn't claim that following Plan A or Plan B will end an affair. Its good as a "newbie" to know of the results, be it good, bad, or ugly.

THANKFULLY, I had a great group of supporters during my ordeal. Most of which HAD followed Plan A and B with mixed results. I cherished then and today, each and every one of those people and their experiences......for without that, I wouldn't be where I am today....in RECOVERY

Not

I think you and your wife are an anomaly.

Or are you trying to simply convince me that I'm not the man you are?
That's great. Too bad she wasn't around to lovingly confront my ex-wife and deliver the lesson when she was moving out three weeks after giving me the ILYBINILWY speech.
Nor does this program ensure you will be able to change her mind either. One can always try. My question is what is the TYPICAL success rate with ONE spouse initially engaged?
I agree with that part.
And it's at that point they are having the affair. When they simply don't care anymore and have already emotionally divorced their husband. What you are describing is the stealth emotional divorce.

Since she's not been open and honest with her husband about how she feels, and that would be part of not investing in the marriage as you describe it, then he has no idea that anything is wrong. Usually until it's too late.

In my case, and from what I've read, when she is at this part, when you ask her how she's doing, she'll say fine, but really she's lying to you because she's already closed. The best way to avoid sharing her feelings is to simply tell you what she thinks you want to hear, that she is OK.

That's a big if. I don't think most are unsure. Seems from the stories I've seen here, they pursue getting away with abandon, without looking back.

Sure, we have some who've looked back. But again, I think that's the minority, not the majority.
And if not, then he's getting further and further behind, regardless how excellent his plan A might be.
Again, possible is only meaningful when compared to probably. Many things are possible. It's possible to win the lottery, but most folks don't win it.

Yet I can be 100% truthful and say, "You can win the lottery." But until the numbers are presented regarding the odds of winning, then one cannot make a determination of the effort to play is worth the cost.

Same goes for winning back an unfaithful wife. Given what I've seen, the odds are not worth the expended effort.

Those who win do win big, I don't deny that.

But everyone else loses, and in this case, it's more than just losing a buck, the BH loses big. Well, he may ultimately win as he's no longer married to an emotionally abusive wife that failed to value him or her own vows. But even that typically comes at a high financial cost, not to mention losing daily access to his children.

If his wife was a Stay at Home mom, unless she's doing something actually illegal, he's going to be a visiting dad in most courts. She has to be doing drugs, having an affair with a sex offender, or something of that sort to lose custody of her children in most jurisdictions.

Sure there are those who do, but they are typically the ones who try to kill their soon to be ex-husband, or are one of the above mentioned types.
Again, I never said impossible. I said NEAR impossible given that I believe that both this is the typical wife who walks away and has her affair, AND that once they've chosen that course of action, many feel compelled to stay the course.

Add in a family and friends who back the choice, such as having the OM in their home for holidays while their daughter is still married to the BH, and their network of Sex in the City, or today it would be Eat, Pray, Love fan friends who are cheering on their affair, and it's a lost cause.

Combine it with churches who won't get involved (like mine) and add to that the blame of the husband by the church of the wife's behavior, and again who is really supporting the marriage?

Oh, and add in that she believes not only is her husband the cause of all her unhappiness, but she also believes that she'll not lose her children, get child support, perhaps spousal support, and there are few things that push working on the marriage into the positive column for the typical WW looking at the +/- of her marriage.

It will appear to the typical WW that there are more +'s on the "divorce the bum" side than on the he's worth having around side.

She can have his money, and his kids, without actually having him, so why bother with the hassle of meeting his needs, when she can get her financial needs met through a court order and still have her lover.


That assumes the WW will even let the BH meet any needs. From what I've read, the typical behavior is that of my XW. Give the ILYBINILWY speech, ask him to move out or move out, and never look back.

Plan A does no good if the WW is not around to observe plan A. The plan B doesn't really matter at this point because she's already effectively plan B'ed her BH by closing him out.

It comes down to will she look back, and frankly, given my experience, I don't have the confidence to believe that most women who would choose to do this would look back.

I think it's a very rare women who will drop the atomic bomb of infidelity on her marriage and then look back.

They do exist, so successes are out there. But I still believe it's a very rare outcome.

I believe the percentage of men who've worked the plans here to a recovered marriage is smaller than the percentage of men who ended up with a recovered marriage.

It would be interesting to see Dr H break down the numbers. How many men have come to him with an unfaithful wife, and what percentage of those men today have a recovered marriage.

The plan for the wayward walk-away wife is described here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5012b_qa.html

The readers digest summary. If she won't look back, then wait for the affair to end and MAYBE she'll look back to you, if you've not done anything wrong and/or appear to care for her.

That's a pretty big maybe.

Since most women will have built support networks that exclude her betrayed husband, I think it's highly unlikely that she'll look to him as she's already accustomed to getting her needs met by others after the 6 months to 2 years of time it takes for the affair to end.

She'll probably already have finalized her divorce as well, making even less likely she'll look back to her ex-husband.

I wonder if the following is why we see BH's "rolling over" for WW's.

Dr H's own advice says:


I think some take the "you want her to be happy" to the point of self destruction. I think most husbands do want their wives to be happy. Often at the expense of their own happiness. (Not very MB, BTW.)

Often we hear about how it's wives who do that, and I do agree it happens, but it's seldom a one-way street. I think it's very rare for either a husband or a wife to marry with the intent of not wanting their spouse to be happy.

BOTH spouses doing this is the key to success in the MB program. If there is sufficient romantic love created by both spouses, then the odds that each is happy goes up.

But the wayward, is as Dr H describes, selfish, and is no longer concerned for the well being of the betrayed spouse.

When the wayward walks away, there is little the BH can do to meet her needs.

I'm simply following this advice to the extreme. If I should ever be betrayed again, I'll wish her her happiness and kick her out of the house if she doesn't come to her senses in the 10 milliseconds I'm willing to wait for her to end the affair, confess, repent and start the MB program.

That may not be the right plan for anyone. It is the right plan for me, should it ever, heaven forbid, happen again.

EE, I have to say I can see your point about some things. If I had never apologized/repented for my A.....I'd be divorced. DH NEVER would have stuck around for me to just "be comfortable with him." And when you think about the principle of not forgiving unless someone asks, and then the idea that the WS never has to apologize.....then you have someone whose never said they are sorry trying to rebuild a marriage with someone who never has to forgive them. Sounds kinda stupid to me.

So yeah, I don't know many real people who would cow for the rest of their lives to an unapologetic WS. And until a spouse apologizes/repents/begins the making amends process, I personally still consider them wayward.

That being said, if I were a single woman, I would run like the wind from someone who went on and on about wayward women and having no mercy. Not because I would plan on being wayward, but because the anger/hardness/cynicism would make me wonder how freely he could love me.