Just to avoid confusion. I posted before but haven't in awhile although I have been avidly reading these threads, the articles and these books. Most of my questions have been addressed elsewhere.

I wish I had found these things prior to my marriage. Now I recognize many places where I went wrong. I think I could answer my own question about how to fix certain things except for the fact that I am the WW and because of that I feel like I have no right to complain.

We are over a year past dday and from what I can gather, doing relatively well. Initally he was understandably angry and was quite nasty when he made reference to my failings as a wife. This has dissapaited; however, occassionally he still drinks a bit too much and mentions my "lying cheating ways". I tell him that I do not mind discussing this if he is feeling sad or vunerable; however, I won't let him talk that way to me.

My problem comes about shen we address our needs. In the past he would LB me about many things and I would inturn bring up all his shortcomings. I have stopped doing this. There are still issues that are lowering his account in my love bank and I don't know how to tell him.

For example, we once discussed FS. He has not had a raise in years. He indicated that he wasn't asking about the future because he didn't intend to remain there...that was 5 years ago. When I brought this up recently, he immediately asked me if I had heard from OM recently. I want to address his questions but I felt that he was using my guilt in that area to get the conversation off of him. I realize that is a DJ which is why I didn't say that to him but I can't help feeling that.

Other minor examples are that we now have a joint email address. I use it for conversations with my girlfriends as well as family related stuff. His email is still seperate (I do have the password). When I asked him about this, he said he doesn't have to change because he didn't use his for evil. I really don't mind that he has his own; however, he has begun answering my friends's emails and not indicating that it is him.

There have been other issues with houshold responsibilities where I don't feel he is contributing enough and would like to make a respectful request. He often agrees to my request but just doesn't do it. I then feel hurt but don't want to nag. He has an opinion about things but doesn't share it because he is afraid I will disagree. I get why he would be worried that I will leave but I want him to be honest. How can I make him feel safe given what I've done?

This is much longer than I intended. I just don't want to appear entitled. Before the affair I never asked for any of my needs to be met so he is not accustomed to this. I want to hold my taker at bay without becoming demanding and selfish.

Any input would be greatly appreciated..

From what I've observed, most women who "cheat" do so because their emotional needs aren't being met within their marriage. I see you as trying to avoid being unfaithful, by speaking up. I understand the "BS" feeling betrayed... but after (1) year, is it still fair for him to punish you? In re: to FS, don't let him navigate away from that conversation. When he tries, say something along the lines of "that's a good issue and we can discuss that later, but now I need to get a final answer on _____" Another idea would be to tell him what you want to use the extra money for...."Wouldn't it be great if we had some extra $$ so we can take a vacation together" or "I'd/We'd be so less stressed if we had extra $$ to pay all the bills" (I hope I don't come off as a know-it-all, but I do hope that I have helped.)

Sunny - Is your husband familiar with Marriage Builders? Have you discussed following the plan together? You both need to be on board with the MB prinicipals to create romantic love. If your DH isn't following the guidelines, your marriage is not on track to improve.

aBetterMe

I disagree, people who cheat is because they have LOW or NO boundaries at all, and are or IS SELFISH.

The reason why I disagree is because my husband met all of my EN's to the T and yet I cheated on him not once but twice!

Sunny,

Permit me to make a few observations and comments. One you two really are not recovered if he is throwing your affair in your face every time you ask him about things like his job or the email. This is not what recovery looks like and it certainly isn't what a good marriage looks like. You are absolutely correct to defend your new boundaries.

So let's consider the title of your post. Short answer is you don't complain if you are the FWW or if you are the BS. Complaining is not part of MB nor is it productive to addressing issues in the marriage from either side.

There is a subtle part of MB that I think more than a few overlook, and that is how to discuss needs and get needs met. One of the reasons for the NEEDS questionaire and the LB questionaire is to gain information and provide a discussion point for both spouses WITHOUT complaining.

IF something needs to be done or you feel something needs to be changed you need to be able to state your point/reasons based on how you see it without attacking him. This is a skill that is actually part of meeting needs.

Let's take for example the fact that he hasn't had a pay raise.
Do really think it is HIS fault, or do you think that he really cannot threaten to leave due to the job market? Do you think that his performance at work is so poor that he does not merit a raise or do you think he deserves a raise but he fears asking for it?

If you think he deserves a raise and the company is using him, then you might start the conversation by praising his work ethic, his skills, and how you hope that the company will recognize them. You might also consider if you could support him moving to another job, perhaps in another part of the country.

If you felt that his skill set is wanting, hence the lack of a raise, then you don't talk about his job or his raise, you offer him different perspectives on work and his skill set so as to encourage him upping his game, retraining, or understanding where he is.

My point, you don't complain, you analyze the situation from where you are and you SUPPORT him in such a way as to encourage to make necessary changes even if it is simply in his perspective.

I mean if you have a headache do you complain about it to him, expecting him to fix it, or do you take some aspirin? You address the issue, he cannot fix your headache. The same with him, you address the real issues in a positive way, you don't complain.

I once read a book on consulting by a very successful consultant in a technical area. He told numerous stories about working for large corporations. He told how it gave him great pleasure to solve the problems of a company and then have the rank and file wonder why the CEO had brought him in in the first place because they were the ones that came up with the solutions. What the CEO knew was that this guy excelled and solving problems not only because he could figure out the solutions but because before he had moved on his ideas had become the ideas of the folks he was working with. This meant that they rarely appreciated what he did because they were "their ideas" and the ideas were implemented because..."they were their ideas."

Having them buy in, and take "ownership" of the ideas meant that his ideas and solutions would actually be implemented and therefore the probability of the problem being solved for the company went way up. Most could never figure out why was continually working and being well paid, but each company ended up with their problem solved.

As he stated he had decided long ago,it was more important to actually have the problems solved than that he got credit for it by the people he was working with. The people he was working FOR did know of course, hence his successful career.

So what does this mean to you? It means being "right" may not be as important as you being able to convince your H to work on the problems. He needs to take "ownership" and hence receive the credit far more than you need to be right.

Are you seeing what I am talking about? Complaining isn't the path to achieve this.

God Bless,

JL

Sunnydays,

I'll second what JL said, it wasn't until I stopped trying to be right and understood my wife that our relationship improved. When I read the WW threads on MB it just clicked how she felt and why she did what she did.

You might want to read some of the BH threads on here to get an idea what's going on inside your BH. I get the feeling from your posts that you assume your BH has recovered without ever asking him how he feels. Does he still have unanswered questions?

God Bless
Gamma

That is completely opposite of what Dr. Harley has repeatedly stated, which is that complaints are necessary. Read more at When should you tell your spouse, "We have a problem."

BHHFS,

Actually, I read the article and Dr. Harley does not endorse "complaining". He endorses communications and that includes issues that are bothering someone. I did not tell her to not communicate with her H nor lower her expectations. I told her "complaining" is NOT MB and it is not. Here is a definition

Most people take a complaint as a challenge and become defensive as the complaint in these situations is rarely accompanied by anything but wanting the other person to "do something to alleviate it." That is not an effective way to communicate and frankly most people receive complaints in the vein of definition #2 which simply leads to defensiveness and rarely cooperation.

Hence my examples for expressing what needs to be expressed.

JL

While Dr Harley does endorse complaining, JL is exactly right in how he defines "complaint." Dr H defines it just as JL has done here: "communications and that includes issues that are bothering someone." In other words, being radically honest but in a respectful, non demanding way. Harley states that a complaint is an irritation in a bad marriage and an opportunity for improvement in a good marriage.


Complaining in Marriage

Thank you all for your insights.

Gamma, I have been reading a lot of the BH threads and they have helped me tremendously. I think it is the societal norm for people to think he ought to "get over it." It is good for me to see that the pain in enduring.

I have read the links on complaining so I guess that was what I was referring to when I titled my thread. This issue has been pervasive in our marrige. We both come from families where being assertive is not valued. My mother would often hint at what she wanted or needed but never actually state it. His parents are extremely passive aggressive with one another. My DH follows that example by agreeing to do something but then not following through...or the reverse of saying he has no interest in an independent activity but then doing it anyway. For my part, I never expressed my displeasure but instead wanted him to WANT to help out, stay home, whatever. I am trying to find the balance between expressing my needs appropriately and being demanding and entitled.

JL...as far as the job thing goes. 5 years ago when he expressed a desire to go out on his own, I immediately found a job with family benefits (I had been only working part time). It meant leaving my 2 year old with relatives and not being able to be active in my DD's schooling but I did understand that I had been fortunate to have the time I did so I was not resentful. He paid a service to work on his resume and help with the job search but never followed through. It was during this time that he complained a lot but didn't appear to be DOING anything. Eventually I withdrew because I felt useless. Even at this point I would never have figured on an affair. Now reading these materials I see I was stupid to have missed it.

Fast forward till now, I realize I was sooo selfish, I can't even fathom it. I don't want to in anyway imply that my affair was his fault so I am extremely cautious when making requests that he isn't reading them that way...maybe too cautious.

I have attempted to explain POJA. The problem is neither of us is good at expressing our opinions and he sees disagreement as irreconciable differences especially after my affair. I guess I am just scared. Your advice has been helpful. I will reread the posts and the links and maybe come back with more questions.

Thanky you,

Sunny

ML,

Do you think printing that link for him would be a DJ or trying to educate?

Sunny,

My thought is that you need to get a better handle on this stuff, MB, before you start to bring it to your H.

However, that said, you can model new behavior and that often starts to change things. So let's look at what you need to do is come up with a plan to address the interaction between you and your H. Start with goals: how do you want your marriage to look? What do you think he would want the marriage to look? What sort of interactions do you want with your H?

Once you have an idea about the goals, then you need to understand your boundaries. Now often people think boundaries are about what you don't like about your H, but really they are about YOU, your morals, and what are real deal breakers. You cannot expect him to respect your boundaries IF you don't know what your boundaries are.

Then think about needs. If he will take the needs questionaire, please encourage him. You should take it, and if he won't you can take it for him using your best guess as to how he would answer. Your answers may be wrong but they give you better focus on what you need to learn about your H.

Also look the issue of love busters, the ones you make and the ones he makes. How will you address your love busters? If you start to remove them I can guarantee that he will notice.

Once you have all of this laid out, then you make a plan to make a better marriage and include your H in this discussion. Whatever happens it needs to be a win-win. POJA is simply negotiation until there is a win-win solution, nothing mysterious about it, it just isn't used enough in marriages.

One final note: YOUR H IS A WORSE MINDREADER THAN YOU AND YOU CANNOT READ MINDS! Got that? Seriously, you expect him to do what you want him to do but you don't tell him/ask him/persuade him. Who wakes up and gots "HOT DA** I want to do the dishes." no one. If you need help you need to ask for it. And here is where the issue of complaining comes in. If you complain "you never help me around the house." you will get defense. He will think to himself "hey I mow the yard, hey, I put a sock in the laundry , hey I do..." You don't want that you want help.

Instead you might say "hey if you help me with the dishes, I'll give you a kiss." And then you smile at him. My point, he needs to know what you want, and eventually he needs to know you really appreciate what he does. There are many strategies to accomplish this, but what it should end up with is that you two are happier with one another AND you accomplish what needs to be done.

You said Do you see how his complaining affected you? That is what you want to avoid with him and ultimately he with you.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Your suggestions are great. I really like the one about the dishes. :-)

I did take the needs questionare on his behalf. The problem I have with this is that his actions and his words don't match and I feel like it maybe a DJ to even guess at his reponses. For example, for years, he was encouraging me to wear sexy clothes and lose weight yet, if asked by me or someone else if an attractive spouse is important he says no. I believe he feels certain needs are superficial and doesn't want to admit to them...even when I try to validate them. In the past, I have gotten frustrated when he clearly wants to do something but instead of saying it, he manipulates the situation to make it look as if he is doing me a favor. Examples would be going out certain places or even watching a movie at night. He will ask about a movie and I may say it's late or I'm tired but also offer to keep him company (although I may fall asleep) while he watches. He'll then continue to ask which movie do I want until I finally say yes. I am stuck between wanting to make him happy and letting him know that really isn't my first choice of activities. This happens with sex as well.

Sorry, each time I answer your posts, I think of more questions. I guess what I am searching for is a way to communicate so that he knows what I want but leaving the door open to discuss other options openly. Does that make sense?

Wanted to update based on somethings I read on Saddestwife's thread.

Last evening a specific situation happened that sort of magnifies what I am talking about.

Whilst the kiddos were getting ready for bed they began fighting with one another. My DH began to tell them not to; however, he was a bit wordy (DJ I felt he overdid it but didn't contradict or correct him.) DD got a bit mouthy back..not too bad but definitely not sweet. Anyway I did not correct either one and continued what I was doing. Bedtime came and we did cuddles. I did not address my daugter's issue with her father as I felt she needs to learn to do that on her own. I did hear her crying while talking to him but it sounded as if he was handling it.

Anyhoo...he comes out of her room and rolls his eyes and says he didn't know why she was so upset. I mentioned something about her being a bit dramatic but also said perhaps he had repeated himself a bit more than necessary.

After this he clammed up and had a beer. I finished my evening preparations and went downstairs to seduce him. I have been very tired lately and when we fall into bed SF is the last thing I can think about so I had told him earlier in the evening perhaps we could ....BEFORE we went to bed rather than watching an hour of TV and being lulled into sleep mode.

He turned me down but wouldn't say what was wrong.

Finally with some cajoling he claimed he didn't like my take on the situation with DD. I validateded his point, apologized for giving advice that he wasn't really asking for. Told him we are bound to disagree; however, I didn't contradict him in front of her or negate his feelings.

I kinda thought we were good. He continued drinking and we cuddled for a couple minutes but then I did go to bed after clarifying there would be no SF.

During the night DS woke me up with a bad dream and DH was still not in bed.

This morning I found in excess of 7 beer cans and his wedding ring on the counter.

Since I didn't know how to respond without LBing I didn't. I got the kids ready, brought him coffee and kissed him goodbye.

This am he has sent an e-mail saying he loves me. His ring was back on before I left.

I am frustrated because I feel everytime we have a disagreement about anything he mentions the A...did that last night as well but I defelcted the conversation. I don't want to negate his feelings but I don't want to be bullied into agreeing with him on finances, parenting, free time etc.

Am I on the right track.

2X4's appreciated by BS's

I'll offer my two-cents until the vets come along, please take it for what it's worth.

You're right, it ticked him off when you disagreed with his parenting and you should have stopped at your child being a bit overdramatic. But now you know so do better next time.

But that probably wasn't the underlying issue and the reason to sit up all night drinking...it was just a little icing on the cake. Who the h*** is she to tell me how to discipline our child after she has done this and this and this?

It sounds as though he's going back and forth in his mind and, at one point in the night, decided the marriage was over. Or (I've done this before) he took his ring off, left it where you would see it and deep-down wanted some sort of dialogue or confrontation. Something to feel like he has the upper hand, some control over the situation. Something to get your attention or hurt you. I cannot put it into words other to say that I did a similar thing years ago, that alcohol was involved, that I felt no control over my life, that I hated my wife for what she did (PA) but felt guilty for feeling that way.

Then he changed his mind, your apology was probably noted and you did the right thing. Hence the email and wearing the ring. I think that some men (myself included) just have to step back and chew over things for a while before making a decision.

Strangely, I wonder if he actually wanted SF but said no because he was so mad, felt powerless and didn't want to give in. Did you ask him about it?

Sorry that this post is confusing, but your post just kind of reminded me of me. Someone will be along to hopefully offer some better insight.

What do you think his #1 EN is?

Take care.

Northwood,

Your post was extremely helpful and insightful. That is exactly the perspective I need.

Have texted to my DH throughout the day and he has responded in kind.

Sadly his top EN is a mystery. He considers some EN's superficial (like AS, SF and DS) although these are very important to him. He says O&H is his top right now (for obvious reasons); however, he doesn't always respond well when I am honest. I must work on radical honesty versus brutal honesty. That is hard for me as before I was a liar regarding my affair, I was a "protective liar". He isn't used to hearing the difficult things.

Any advice you have is greatly appreciated. I think your take on things was probably accurate.

SD53,

Finally with some cajoling he claimed he didn't like my take on the situation with DD.

Perhaps when you do so he remembers that you were with OM while he was caring for your children. I used to feel that way about my W although it was not affair related.

Another take is when you judge him to be a bad FATHER, he may feel completely defeated, since your affair has proven to him that he is not a good LOVER or HUSBAND. Possibly too some of the other roles PROTECTOR, PROVIDER that men use to define their worth.

This morning I found in excess of 7 beer cans and his wedding ring on the counter..... Every time we have a disagreement about anything he mentions the A......

Because not a single waking moment can he get away from it just yet. You wouldn't tell someone who just lost a loved one to stop talking about it, you would let them speak their mind, and give them time. He is grieving the loss of what he had with you.

God Bless
Gamma

This has to stop. You can't possibly become intimate with someone who has a semi-automatic weapon pointed at you.

My H and I separated for a time so I was ready for this the first time he did it. I was telling him how something he did upset me, and he said "your A was so much worse than anything I've done."

I calmly said, "you will ALWAYS have that card to play, from now until the day I die, and it will ALWAYS trump whatever I'm feeling. If you want me to be O&H with you, you are going to have to refrain from playing that card. I will talk to you about the A as often and as long as you want, but using it as a trump card to shut me up is giving it the power to continue to hurt our relationship."

I only had to say it once, emphatically.

I don't know where I came up with the courage to actually say that except rehearsing it in my head, but it was a huge turning point.

Read JL's stuff to Hitch on boundaries -- life changing stuff for me. I realized that my lack of boundaries was infecting every relationship in my life. I work now on tying what I say and do back to a core value and when there are competing values I try to stop and weigh them -- like when my toxic mother wants to have lunch with me, I have to weigh my value of kindness and respect against my value of self care. It's cumbersome, but in time I think it will come naturally.

It's so hard to know where to start as a WW who has devoted her life to keeping her family happy. I know I have been going through an existential battle the likes of which I hope to never experience again. But I feel more grounded than I ever have in my life.

One more thought on the DD situation -- it is well neigh impossible for a Mother to stand back and say nothing when watching dad "mishandle" the kids. I find waiting to say anything works best. I'll notice a few things that form a pattern and and in more relaxed moment, bring up the pattern with my thoughts. BUT -- and this is a big but -- in the meantime, I make it a point to give him frequent compliments on his parenting like saying "I really admire you for not snapping at S15 when he was short with you -- I know how hard it is to not react".

There was a study done at Boys' Town with troubled adolescent boys and they found that it took four positive statements to make up for one critical one. I think that's a good rule to live by with all family members.

On one hand I can see and understand the pain you feel. That he brings up the A and how it hurts you. And on the other hand I sense that you don't understand the pain you have caused.

You don't deserve nor should you tolerate the pain that he inflicts on you. Nor does he deserve nor tolerate the pain you inflict on him.

It is always easy to feel the pain one causes you but much much harder to see and feel the pain you cause others. And when we can only really understand the pain we feel we really have no chance at recovery. It has been a year.

Thank you all for your thoughts. I really appreciate the different perspectives.

Gamma...I did think of that reasoning; although I tirelessly try to build up his fathering skills whenever possible. He has not become very involved with the kids until after my A so there is adjustment to be expected. I am trying to help with that.

Seekingbalance....I relate well to you and I love your new name. It is perfect.

TJD, I do try to understand the pain I have caused which is why I am posting here. I do want perspectives as he won't share with me. I do not want to hurt him anymore and I have to believe he doesn't really want to hurt me either. Just trying to figure out the best way to help him through this.

We had a terrific weekend. On Friday he asked if I had been at work. (my affair took place when I was supposed to be at work) I offered to call my boss or the secretary. He declined...wanted to pout a bit to which I said, I was there and you are welcome to call, I won't be upset I just want you to feel better. That seemed to work....and I wasn't lying. I totally understand why he may need to check up on me and am fine with it. My boss knows and would understand as well.

Anyway, big family weekend and all kinds of fun...just like I have dreamed about.

Thanks again for your posts.