Hi folks,<P>I have lurked here for a long time. Married 16 years, H confessed an affair in January 1998. He had known OW through business trip for 5 or 6 months. They were desparately in love, he said he had been unhappy in the marriage for years, but I did not realize this. He agonized for two months and finally <BR>told OW goodbye in March 1998.<P>Since then, we have been rebuilding. Briefly did counseling. I felt much better and optimistic for the first year or so. He would not talk about affair, or how he was doing. He got into individual therapy about a year ago. <P>He swears he has not been in contact with OW and I believe him. She lives 3000 miles away, I have snooped. But for the last few months, I have felt uneasy, like he was still not happy. So I snooped in his briefcase this AM. There was a note from his sister. He had visited sister last July. In this note his sister thanked him for confiding in her, said that "no matter what path you take, I will be there for you." So this confirmed my gut feeling that he was very unhappy.<P>I confronted him before he left for work. I was amazingly calm. He cried. He says he loves me and that leaving me would be like ripping out his heart -- I am a part of him -- but that having this ecstatic, wonderful experience with OW nearly two years ago made him feel that he needed more than our calm marriage.<P>We really are best friends. He said he knows I have done EVERYTHING possible to make him happy these past two years, that none of this is my fault. He is totally confused and his private therapy has only stirred things up more. He is 43 and this sounds to me like a colossal midlife crisis. He says he has lost his bearings. He can't stand to hurt our three children. He is totally miserable.<P>I cannot live with this anymore -- the feeling that I am not measuring up, that he is only here out of guilt. I think it is time to move on to Plan B. We are going to talk tonight. I think I will ask him to move out. I cry as I type this because I do not want to hurt my kids -- we both love them so much. <P>I was the calm one this AM as we talked. I did not berate him. I do not hate him. I still love him. But I feel that the tension of the elephant in the room, the unspoken issues is so thick now that neither of us can sleep at night. He needs to be set free to find out if this passion he experienced is what will really make him happy.<P>Any thoughts? Here are my questions:<P>1. Should I file for a formal separation? What is a formal separation anyway? What benefit would I get from it?<P>2. Should I ask him to move out tonight? Once he does, I do not want to talk about anything except the essentials of the kids. I want him to experience the full effect of NO ME! Or should we give ourselves a few days to process this, assuming I can bear to live with him.<P>3. Someone on one of these boards once said, "lunacy is when you keep doing the same thing and expect a different result." That's how I feel right now. We have been in Plan A and it has not diminished his confusion. So time to try Plan B?<P>4. How is the best way to deal with the kids? My feeling is that we need to be honest. Neither my H or I has anyone to confide in about this on a daily basis. THe secrecy eats away. I am SOOOO tired of secrets. I don't think anything less than honesty will wash with my kids. On the other hand, they have not experienced any fighting between us so I suspect this will come as a complete shock. They love their dad a lot. It kills me to deprive them of his presence everyday. <BR>Do we tell them that Dad fell in love with someone else and is in a terrible predicament loving two people? YIKES! How can I do that? The kids are 12, 9 and 8. Or do I just say that mom and dad are having some problems and dad is moving out for a while. How will they understand that when they have not seen conflict? Maybe they've felt it though. I hate to see them lose trust in the safety of the world the way I did when my H confessed his affair to me. I also know that I do not want them to feel that *I* am the one who wants this. I want them to know that I believe in the sanctity of marriage. But is that me just provoking them to make their dad the bad guy? I feel like this was not my idea and I should not have to take the blame for it.<P>5. What sort of custody arrangement should we set up? I want to tell H that if OW does move here, I do not want her part of their lives until it looks stable. Do I have the right to do that?<P>I have learned SO MUCH from these boards. I am sorry to have lurked without posting/helping much and then coming here and begging for your help, but I am in desperate straits right now. <P>All feedback and prayers will be gratefully received,<P>EllenA<P>

BTW, H actually only spent 10 days in the presence of the OW. The rest was on the phone.

Ellen:<P>I'm shouting this at you. DO NOT HAVE HIM LEAVE. It's so much harder to work things out when they're gone, and so much easier for a third party to intervene and end your marriage permanently.<P>My suggestion is for you two to get professional help on the marriage. I really like Steve Harley. Start working on things together. After a year or so of solid effort, then see how you feel about things. All marriages go through dips. What your husband had with OW was fleeting anyway. Since it was interrupted, he didn't get to experience the inevitable downside, when that relationship became "calm", or worse. As all the readings say, the obsessed version of love only lasts at the beginning of relationships and ALWAYS ends, usually within two years. The only way for him to keep feeling that way is to change partners constantly. Doesn't sound like much of a life to me!<P>Your husband wants to do the right thing and he respects you. This is great working material. So do work it. Take an active role in making the marriage great. Then this issue goes away.

Thank you for your reply, Distressed. I had not expected that kind of advice. I expected the reaction to be "Throw the B***ard" out!" <P>He called me at work. He is concerned about me. Says he loves me. We plan to talk tonight. I told him to think about where he might stay the night. He was taken aback. He asked about us going to therapy together. I said I'd have to think about it. So I guess I said all the wrong things. But maybe it will do him good to feel that I am losing my patience. <P>We will talk tonight and I will let you know what happens. THanks for your advice.<P>EllenA

EllenA:<P>I'm a bit confused. You said he said goodbye to OW in March 1998 and you believe that to be true. If so, why do you think he would be going to OW now. <P>I wouldn't tell the kids that your H left for OW. They will figure that out for themselves soon enough, if its true.<P>You have talked to your H about what is missing in his life, is there anyway you can fill the void??<P>If you are willing to give up your H then you can't interefere in how he lives his live or who he lives it with and you can't hold the kids as hostage. Unless he has abused the children or you have some other compelling reason, you have to give him equal visitation and you can't consider who he spends his time with as a condition.<P>Why has he gone to "private" therapy? Shouldn't you have been with him to try to work this thing our together?<P>Don't be so quick to give up. I know you said it's been a year and a half since the affair but how long has it been since you both sat down and seriously talked about it?<P>Flip

Hi Flip,<P>You asked why he would be going to OW now if the affair ended 1.5 years ago. Because he never got her out of his system. He admits that he doesn't know what she is doing now -- she might be married. But in those 10 days of contact, he experienced such passion with her, and he is not happy with lack of passion with me. <P>We did couples therapy a bit, but he hated it. Then he was still confused and went into individual therapy to get un-confused. It hasn't worked so far. I never pushed for couples therapy because i am a conflict avoider and knew how uncomfortable he was talking about this (guilt, etc.) So I would only ask him every 2-3 months how he was doing. And it was never the answer I wanted. Always still confused. <P>You're right, we do have a foundation. He still loves me (altho in his mind like his dearest friend, but isn't that a good start for marriage?) Our sex life has never been the best either of us has experienced -- I have had lovers I enjoyed more as has he. But it is by no means BAD! So we will see what transpires when we talk this PM.<P>Thank you so much for responding.<BR>EllenA

EllenA<BR>I'm so sorry for your pain. You must of course resolve your issues.<P>However, since he is not currently in a physical affair and there is no physical abuse in the home, the needs of your children must come first.<P>If there is a way to resolve or move toward the resolution of your or rather his problems without ripping you children't world apart, then do it.<P>In fact, with a broken home, not only will you have your marriage to still deal with, but the hurt and anger the kids are feeling. This would take away from the energy either of you could give the marriage. <P>This initial rush of pain and anger is making you react in all/nothing solutions. You will be able to deal with this more clearly with a little cushion of time. <P>Remember your situation really hasn't changed from yesterday, it is just you have a more complete picture of it. <P>I know the humiliation, pain, anger and fear that is raging through you. Just given your emotional state alone is reason enough not to make any immediate decisions that would have major impact on your family.<P>I would (as hard as it will be) spend your night listening to him. Ask probing questions and make sure he feels heard. It may be the first time you hear the brutal truth because you have both been doing a nonconfrotational dance. Resist temptation to let too much of your anger out other than that he has not been honest. Otherwise you will not have an atmosphere were he feels safe enough to be honest and you won't get anywhere. He may decide to leave in an effort to aleviate your pain...or as another way of avoiding conflict.<P>He obviously is committed to your family unit. At least you share that in his confusion. <P>It does sound like a big time mid life crisis. And what's up with his sister basically saying...Oh, poor brother, if you decide to leave the woman you vowed to spend the rest of your life loving for better for worse...and bailing on those sweet children, then that's OK...because we gotta do what we think what might make us "happy" even if it leaves devastation in our wake. After all those pitter patter feelings is the essence of life, forget about integrity and honor...its our immediate feelings that count. (gag) People like that make me sick.<P>How much more loving would it have been for her to say something like. Wow, Bro, I'm so glad you opened up to me. Yeah, sometimes we all lose are way, but Bro, look at what a wonderful life you have created for yourself. What do you want as your legacy? A strong happy family who loves and respects you? The inner peace that comes from knowing when the going got tough, you hung in there and did not settle, but did not only the right thing, but whatever it takes to heal and grow? Do you want a life with your best friend, who loves you and whose life has been entwined with your own? Brother, hang in there, get the help you need, and count on those who love you to support you in your inner struggle on your journey to healing.<P>Sorry, EllenA, this just really touches me.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

EllenA: I am wondering if you are giving up too quickly. I have been married 25 years and yes, I have made my share of mistakes. I am the betrayer in this relationship and have learned through my mistakes that it is my spouse I truly wanted to be with. I will admit it takes time to get over the OP, but with time, it will happen. Right now my spouse and I are working toward rebuilding our relationship and hopefully learn along the way not to make the same mistakes. I know there are days when I am the only one working because I can feel him distancing himself from me. I know he is hurt and I know it may take a long time for him to heal, but I can't give up on him, I can't give up on us. Your spouse states that he loves you and if you listen closely, it is from the heart. Sixteen years is alot to just throw away. He is experiencing a midlife crisis and with time he will get over it and then it will be your turn. Don't give up on him yet. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

Dear Faith Hope and Love,<P>Your post made me cry. Yes, I am so hurt that his sister would be there for him! I want his whole family to disown him! But of course they will not. My only consolation is that if we eventually do divorce, I can divorce them too! I like my in-laws but I don't think I could stand the pain of being the ex-wife.<P>You are right, the only thing that has changed since yesterday is my perception of the situation. H was not talking separation, I was. He mentioned counseling and I was so angry inside that I said I would have to think about it. But we have never torn down the wall between us and maybe therapy is the only way to do that. I will take your advice and listen tonight. I will ask those probing questions. This is so hard. It is so painful to feel second best for two years.<P>Thank you for your helpful words. I will post tomorrow with news of tonight's conversation.<P>Ellen

Hi Sobeit,<P>Yes, sometimes I remember that the people who stay married are just the people who stayed married. <P>How long ago was your affair? Were you in love with the OP? How long did the affair last? I'm glad that you are sticking with your marriage in spite of the obstacles put in your way. Don't you think 1.5 years of my H trying to get over the OW is a bit MUCH???<BR>Sometimes I feel like his MOTHER!!! Like he is an adolescent and I am patiently sitting by waiting for him to come to his senses.<P>Thanks for your words of support. It means so much to have someone to talk to.<P>ELlen<P>

Dear Ellen,<P>My experience is sort of like your husbands and I too thought something was missing etc etc. An affair can do that to you, it sort of wakes you up, stirs you up. However, what your husband doesn't realize because he has not had a chance to experience it is that life with another person would get calm too after a period of time. <P>I have so much I could say on this subject but let me say just a few things that jump out at me at the moment. <P> Can your husband get another therapist? I also went to a therapist beause I was feeling so rotten about being in an affair (which THANK GOD, I am out of). She was very helpful in some ways but AWFUL in others. She was not an advocate for the marriage but rather an advocate for "my path in life" and "my journey" and "personal fulfillment" and all kinds of other selfish JUNK. I did not see it at the time but looking back I would definitely say that I needed to be with a therapist who stood for my marriage. <P>Since you know about the affair, I would think you should be in marital councelling TOGETHER. <P>If you are your husbands best friend and he has 16 years with you and HE LOVES YOU, then I think the best thing is to get going on the areas where he needs some help. It sounds like he needs passion, adventure etc. Discussing his emotional needs would be a step in the right direction. I'll bet you could surprise everyone and shake up the marriage with a little bit of excitement. <P>I don't mean just wrapping yourself in cellophane and greeting him at the door (those sorts of solutions always made me gag) but I guess I do mean changing things a little or A LOT. It sounds so cliche but maybe there are some different things you could do together, maybe something unique, new, adventuresome.<P> I lost my bearings too, I am your husbands age, three wonderful children and a great husband( and I am a devout Christian). I just lost my way for a while. It takes a while to sort through these things and is torture. I even had this little stage where I wanted to run away and join a motor-cycle gang. (If you knew me and my housewife life, this would really make you laugh).<P>But I was in a crisis, something got woken up in me......I guess it happens to some of us and not others(Why me?) But, it does not mean that you should throw away the rest of your lives. <P>Can you hang with him through his "Dark Valley"? Can you go to councelling together? Can you join him on his way for a while and see what it is about life he feels he is missing? If his affair is truly over than I don't think it is about that particular woman, I think it is about "passion" and "feeling alive". I think it is a spiritual journey for him and I am thinking you might have the power within you to help him if you can stand the pain. <P>Don't have him move out, that plan is for a husband who is still in an affair...and I agree with that 100%. Instead, exhaust your supply of ideas, pull rabbits out of the hat....get some crazy ideas going.....I don't know.....maybe none of this makes sense but it seems like what he is looking for is right there and he doesn't see it.

EllenA: I have had several affairs with the last one ending over 2 years ago. I am not proud of my behavior and did not become emotionally attached to any of them except the last one. I am working through it now and amazingly I have had more and more days without thinking about him. It's like this weight is lifting off my shoulders and I am feeling more free. I am able to concentrate more on my goal and that is my marriage. However, it took this last relationship to help me realize where I was at in my marriage and for my spouse to wake up and realize what he was not doing to keep us going. It is sad that it took us 25 years to see the mistakes my spouse and I were making by not putting an effort into our relationship. We allowed it to fall apart by our lack of communication, seeing each other only 8 hours or less a week, cruel remarks from earlier years that never healed and numerous other items that prevented us from becoming close. We married as teenagers and never really connected as one. What I would give for my spouse to talk to me and tell me how he feels. I wanted so much to be his best friend and he, mine. I always wanted his affirmations, his attentiveness, but being the person that he is (old school) he has never been one to show affection until it was almost too late. Well enough of the sniffly stuff. I can't change him. He is who he is and I have to accept that. I almost left him two years ago and he is still hurt for all the hateful things I said out of anger. He told me at that time he would change, but now that he's been hurt by me, he still acts like he did before. Distant. I have talked too long and it is time for me to go. I wish you much luck in preserving your marriage. He loves you and as I said earlier, in time he will get over the OW. It will feel like a weight lifted off his back.

Hi Bonny,<P>Thanks you SO MUCH for your reply. It is so good to talk to someone who has been through this crisis themselves. <P>My main question is: How long did it take for you to pass through this crisis? How long did the affair last and how long after it ended did you feel bad?<P>I absolutely agree with your point that the therapist should stand for the marriage. I am appalled that my H's therapist is encouraging him to make up his mind, either commit to me wholeheartedly or leave his family to find his happiness. Because of this advice, in the last few months he has withheld the affection he naturally feels for me out of guilt! He has not wanted to express his love for me because he fears that if he leaves in the end, he will have misled me. Now he says he will not do that anymore.<P>I did not kick him out last night. Instead I listened to him and tried not to judge, although it was hard. H has gotten the name of a highly recommended couples counselor and we will get the next available appointment. I told H I need to talk about this painful stuff every day or else the tensions between us grows.<P>Thanks so much for your reply, Bonny.<BR>Ellen

Sobeit,<P>I am surprised but encouraged that you are just now feeling the weight life two years after the affair ended. My H ended the affair 1.5 years ago and still feels bad. Not so much missing OW herself, but missing the passion and aliveness the affair brought up. He actually broke with her cold turkey, for which I give him great credit.<P>We will see a couples counselor together and I hope that helps. I will just try to stick it out longer and listen to him. I know he does love me. It helps to read other people's explanation of how they felt during their affair because I don't take it personally.<P>thanks.<BR>Ellen

Ellen,<BR>It must have been so hard to listen last night with all the pain you are feeling.<P>I hope your couples therapist is effective. If you haven't already, check out Hummingbird's update on counceling from today. <P>It is incredible that society has gotten to the point that not only do we accept the break down of the family, we encourage it by validating an individual's pursuit of happiness, over the any previous commitments or choices an individual makes and the innocent people the "pursuit of happiness" devastates in its wake.<P>When there is no right and wrong, how confusing charting a course is. No wonder so many are floundering today.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

FHL,<P>I totally agree with you. During my H's involvement with the OW, when he was agonizing about whether to stay with me or go with her, I told him that that's why we had things like the Ten Commandments -- as guideposts when you did not know what to do. I wonder if people were leaving their families in the lurch 50 years ago before divorce became so acceptable. <P>I loved your line about what kind of legacy you want to leave. If he is truly torn between us, why not pick the choice that leaves the best legacy<P>Ellen

Would it be more likely his child would say<P>"I really respect my dad for putting whatever he considered to be his "happiness" ahead of what was best for the rest of us. When the going gets tough, change courses, no matter what the cost or impact of those you love or the previous commitments you made. Yeah, my dad's great, I want to follow my happiness, where ever it leads me."<P>Or<P>"I really respect my dad. When the going got rough and he was confused, he put our needs ahead of his own. But he didn't settle. No, my dad took a good hard look at his life and did the work that it took to get back on course and live a life congruent with his values and beliefs and to find joy and contentment in living by his commitments."<P>Guess I'm really on a soapbox today.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Good morning, FHL,<P>We had a major breakthrough last night. As a result of my confrontation a couple of nights ago, the honest conversation my H and I had, an his therapy appointment yesterday, H came to some major understanding about what makes him tick. We realized how little true communication we have had throughout our relatioship. He has never even figured out what his own needs are. We have found a couples therapist and will see her next week. The kids know we are having some difficulty and are seeing someone to help us. They were not unduly alarmed, I don't think. My H still believes his path might be to leave and find a person better suited to him. This hurts. But I am no longer confused, panicked, dancing around him trying to figure out how to make him happy. It is his responsibility to figure out what he needs and TELL me! THe future is still very uncertain. He does not want to separate now, still loves me, we are still physically intimate. I have some peace for the first time in two years, not because I feel any more assured about my marriage continuing, but because I finally UNDERSTAND what is going on. It is a huge weight off my shoulders. I am so grateful for all the support on these boards and for the advice of people like you. Thank you.<P>P.S. Do you visit affairs-help.com? A fullter report is there.

I'll check it out.<P>I'm happy that you are getting somewhere. Your H's attitude is still nutty and selfish (in my opinion), but you are on the right path. <P>I guess I just do not get anyone who would put their own pursuit of "happiness" ahead of their commitments and their own children.<P>I hope he finds that happiness is not a bubble that floats by and pops its contents on him, but rather something that we choose and find within ourselves when we live a life of integrity congruent with our own beliefs and values.<P>Best of luck!<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hi. I wanted to pop in and say a few encouraging things. We have tons in common, I just celebrated (sort of) 15 years of marriage, have three kids close to the ages of yours, h. had a midlife crisis and even is willing to call it that!<P>My profile doesn't show up when I enter it, but check my other posts and you may see some similarities, too. My h. said that he "Just got tired of brown bagging lunches, doing the right thing, and always being so damned responsible..." "I wanted to feel passion again, like when I was younger".<BR> <BR>Guess what? Now he is committed to us BIG TIME and wrote me a love letter praising me for putting up with him through it. I'm not madly, deeply in love with him yet, but we are building. <P>There are some great books on midlife crisis by Jim Conway; they are available at midlife.com. Read "Your H. Midlife Crisis" and "When a Mate Wants Out". Hopefully you won't need "Moving On After He Moves Out", but if so, it still holds out hope for restoration. Also good is "Hope for the Separated" by Gary Chapman. I found some of them in the public library. The best of all, of course, is Surviving An Affair, from MB.<P>Don't give up if there's a spark of hope in either of you--God is on the side of the family!<P>LIZZIE<P>------------------<BR>When you go through deep waters and great trouble, I will be with you. Isaiah 43:2<P><BR>